Looks like we're going to see how big the UN's balls are...

noel · Post by **noel** » September 16, 2004, 3:17 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6016893/

The UN is saying that the US war in Iraq is illegal and defies the UN charters. This should come as a surprise to no one, but it should be interesting to see how this develops and what the ramifications are. It's about time the UN did/said SOMETHING about this.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 16, 2004, 3:21 pm

WWIII

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » September 16, 2004, 3:22 pm

The UN has balls? This would be news to me...the only time in the past it could have "had balls" is when it was following the US's lead.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 16, 2004, 3:32 pm

Eh pot calling kettle black. Doesn't take balls to go after a third world country's military and leave the true dangers alone because they are too dangerous.

Kwonryu DragonFist · September 16, 2004, 3:33 pm

UN VS US?

Where art thou Nostradamus?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » September 16, 2004, 3:39 pm

I'm going to make a wager and say that they have balls that are large enough to get lost on the surface of a teaspoon.

Annan: We havne't been in the headlines lately, what can we do now...

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » September 16, 2004, 3:54 pm

Why do so many people on this board make the UN sound like "one of THEM"? The United States is a major contributor to the United Nations through monetary and military support, not to mention providing the UN with a home. The confrontational relationship between the US government and the UN is a partial a failure on the part of the US government. We are a major part of the UN, a permanent member of the Security Council. As the "world's only superpower", the US has the ability to empower the UN to function smoothly. This should include times when the US government doesn't fully agree with the UN.

In essence we are failing our political ideals (democracy) by saying that we don't want global democratic organizations (the UN) to function when we don't agree with it. "A voice and vote for everyone, just as long as they agree with the sitting US president" is not an inspiriational political ideal to offer the world.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 16, 2004, 4:18 pm

I don't necessarily want to shit on the UN, but neither do I want the US to cowtow to all these pissant countries. If I have to choose one or the other, I choose defiance.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » September 16, 2004, 4:21 pm

masteen wrote:I don't necessarily want to shit on the UN, but neither do I want the US to cowtow to all these pissant countries. If I have to choose one or the other, I choose defiance.

Yes, it sucks having to listen to all those other idiots who have the right to vote. Pesky democratic construct! Benevolent dictatorship, anyone?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 16, 2004, 4:25 pm

Perhaps they should move their HQ out of New York before they make any moves on the United States. Maybe we can just move them into the hole where the WTCs used to be.

This will lock up the election for Bush. Swing voters will side with the president in favor of America first over UN whipping boy Kerry.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 16, 2004, 4:30 pm

Should just kick the US out of UN and rebuild from there.

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » September 16, 2004, 4:33 pm

How did that puppet get out of it's box? Get back in there till we say the magic words, "Korea".

Crav · Post by **Crav** » September 16, 2004, 4:37 pm

Morgrym wrote:How did that puppet get out of it's box? Get back in there till we say the magic words, "Korea".

Please we have no intention of going to war with North Korea.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 16, 2004, 4:41 pm

Crav wrote:
Morgrym wrote:How did that puppet get out of it's box? Get back in there till we say the magic words, "Korea".
Please we have no intention of going to war with North Korea.

Not yet. We have to continue to ween control over to the Iraq people. Then we can regroup, rearm, and immobilize for Iran and Korea shoudl they continue to pose a danger.

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » September 16, 2004, 4:42 pm

Precisely why I said that. Who better to pull the plug on mission impossible than the UN? The perfect way out when you need one. Or the perfect support when you need it. It's a political puppet and nothing more. Kinda like the man in the oval office.

noel · Post by **noel** » September 16, 2004, 4:48 pm

Wow, there are some really, really uninformed people on this board.

Let me be the one to break it to you... the UN is RIGHT.

So feel free to bring all the sound and fury you want, but the UN is doing the job they're supposed to do. Frankly, I only wish they'd done it sooner.

If you open your eyes, you'll realize that the invasion of another country is the exact thing the UN was designed to prevent.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 16, 2004, 4:57 pm

noel wrote:Wow, there are some really, really uninformed people on this board.

Let me be the one to break it to you... the UN is RIGHT.

So feel free to bring all the sound and fury you want, but the UN is doing the job they're supposed to do. Frankly, I only wish they'd done it sooner.

If you open your eyes, you'll realize that the invasion of another country is the exact thing the UN was designed to prevent.

Not really. Invading another country with intent to take it over and claim it as your own is what they are to prevent. Going into another country and mass killing everyone they see and taking over the land. This is a far fuckign cry from going in and liberating the poor people or Iraq.

Get over yourself and your need to see America and everything it does as evil. Join in rejoice in the prospects of the opportunity for a bright future for the Iraqi people.

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » September 16, 2004, 4:57 pm

You can blow the world to pieces but you can't blow it into peace.

Gotcha.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 16, 2004, 5:25 pm

Morgrym wrote:You can blow the world to pieces but you can't blow it into peace.

Gotcha.

Idealistic and catchy, but you can't handle foreign relations with catchy little slogans.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 16, 2004, 5:26 pm

Midnyte sounds like a tv preacher and is about as informed and believable as one too.

noel · Post by **noel** » September 16, 2004, 5:27 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Not really. Invading another country with intent to take it over and claim it as your own is what they are to prevent. Going into another country and mass killing everyone they see and taking over the land. This is a far fuckign cry from going in and liberating the poor people or Iraq.

Get over yourself and your need to see America and everything it does as evil. Join in rejoice in the prospects of the opportunity for a bright future for the Iraqi people.

Yes really you fucking tool. It doesn't matter what our intention was. We're a security council member of the UN, not a rogue state. We should absolutely be expected to follow the world law we helped create. Don't be a fucking tool.

Don't you ever assume for a split second to know how I perceive the United States of America. We are by FAR the greatest country in the entire world with the most freedoms, best living conditions and privledges. The difference between you and I Midnyte, is that I know why the above is the case, and I stand up for what's necessary to keep it that way. You're just another fucking gravytrainer who has no clue how lucky he was to be born in the US.

My patriotism and faith in my country is not blind like yours is.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 16, 2004, 5:29 pm

We are by FAR the greatest country in the entire world with the most freedoms, best living conditions and privledges.

*cough* I'd beg to differ

noel · Post by **noel** » September 16, 2004, 5:33 pm

Feel free, unlike some other posters on this board, I'm not afraid to learn something new.

That said, the average American citizen has no concept of how good he/she has it.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 16, 2004, 5:48 pm

That is true, but it all depends on how you define benefits, freedom and living conditions. I would argue strongly against the last part for sure.

noel · Post by **noel** » September 16, 2004, 6:01 pm

Kelsh, I'm sure you'd raise some very good points (I've seen some of the studies you're no doubt referring to) but you're kind of missing the point here.

The point I'm making is that whatever greatness attributed to the United States did not come from apathy, disregard for our own laws, or ignoring the ideas we were founded on.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 16, 2004, 6:04 pm

Oh I never denied that at all, and in fact it is the same things that make the other countries in question great to live in as well. I just have a thing against people who say "Greatest country in the world!" no matter what country they come from. There are good and bad things about every country, and whichever is better is extremely subjective.. with a possible exception for living standard.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » September 16, 2004, 6:33 pm

What precisely can the U.N. Do though?

First, as a member of the security council, we have veto power, so I don't believe there is too much they can do without changing the way they normally do business.

Kick us out of the U.N? A not inconsidarable amount of americans would be very happy with this. Even for the ones that aren't happy about it, the actual effect on us would be pretty insignificant. The effect on the U.N. however would not be insignificant, since the U.S. has been a pretty significant portion of the U.N.'s ability to influence events in the world.

Economic sanctions? The problem is sanctions cut both ways. They hurt both the country you are imposing sanctions on and the contry that imposes the sanctions. The countries that normally get sanctiosn imposed on them however usually have smaller economies (relatively at least) so in the terms of overall effect on the imposing countries the cost is usually manageable. But the U.S. has the largest economy on the world. Trying to impose sanctions will have profound effects on the world economy. It would never happen, too many countries are not going to be willing to cut their own throats economically to hurt us as well.

Conventional military? There is really no way the rest of the world can realistically threaten the U.S. with conventional military. We have the best on the planet, by a considerable margin. Plus, we are across the ocean from any of the other larger military powers, and the difference in naval ability is even more unequal. Not to mention of course that we weren't the only country that actually participated in the invasion, are they going to take military action against them too? There isn't going to be any conventional force showdown.

Nuclear military? Not going to happen.

A stern rebuke? If anything, what will happen. A declaration that we are a horrible country. But ultimately a meaningless gesture.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » September 16, 2004, 6:36 pm

Also, if they are going to get on us about military actions without U.N. approval, I wonder if they will cite Bosnia as well, since we didn't have U.N. approval for that.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 16, 2004, 6:37 pm

With the EU growing in economical power and add in China I can actually see economical sanctions being effective. Would hurt both sides in the short run though, but in the long run? Would be interesting to see research done on that.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » September 16, 2004, 6:57 pm

Kelshara wrote:Should just kick the US out of UN and rebuild from there.

Thats like taking the teeth out of a lion. Here kitty kitty kitty.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 16, 2004, 7:17 pm

Kelshara wrote:With the EU growing in economical power and add in China I can actually see economical sanctions being effective. Would hurt both sides in the short run though, but in the long run? Would be interesting to see research done on that.

Not a chance. The economies of the United States and the rest of the world are too interwined. If you impose a trade sanction on the United States, you'll most likely be screwed in another area of trade.

Sanctions work great on little countries with one dominant product like oil for example. And that's only if you get the rest of the world to abide by the sanctions.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 16, 2004, 7:42 pm

Kelshara wrote:With the EU growing in economical power and add in China I can actually see economical sanctions being effective. Would hurt both sides in the short run though, but in the long run? Would be interesting to see research done on that.

Do you think then we could keep jobs in America? I think if the sanctions included the end of imported oil we would be hurting pretty bad. Those of us on the board who have families to provide for, I think, have a greater fear of being able to provide for them. I know that if either my wife or I would lose our job we would most likely lose our house and the way of life we have worked so hard to achieve. I think this is the same for others on the board.

There is talk of our way of life and living conditions being among the best in the world. I would say that I felt this way about 8 years ago. Now I am wondering if we are going to have to cross the border into Mexico for a better way of life. As I type this the news is talking about another industry planning on going to China due to great tax incentives.

These are scarey times folks.

Kwonryu DragonFist · September 16, 2004, 7:56 pm

Scarey times indeed!

What did Mr. Notre Dame aka Nostradamus say about this?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 16, 2004, 8:03 pm

Kwonryu DragonFist wrote:Scarey times indeed!

What did Mr. Notre Dame aka Nostradamus say about this?

That the Eagle and the Bear would fight the Dragon! He also predicted breast implants.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 16, 2004, 8:05 pm

Winnow wrote:
Kwonryu DragonFist wrote:Scarey times indeed!

What did Mr. Notre Dame aka Nostradamus say about this?
That the Eagle and the Bear would fight the Dragon! He also predicted breast implants.

All we need now is for someone to wear a blue turban. 20 years of war then a 1000 years of peace and then the planet blows up.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » September 16, 2004, 8:06 pm

Economic sanctions are the biggest threat to the US. We are way to dependant on outside trade and our economy is too weak at the moment, thanks to outrageous deficit spending and a wave of offshore outsourcing that has all but eliminated the middle class. While sanctions would hurt other countries as well, no one is more dependant on outside resources than us, especially oil. If I were the UN and I wanted to thoroughly cornhole the US, this is what I would do: Deny any oil trade and deny US industry access to foreign labor pools. Major US industries would go massively apeshit having to hire domestically while running on fumes. While the countries engaged in the sanctions would take a hit, it would be nothing compared to the long term ass fucking we would get in that scenario.

Military action is completely out of the question, even though if someone capable, say Russia and France working together, were to suddenly come in in support of Iraq we would be in some serious shit with our people thinly spread over a hostile land halfway around the world. Its just not likely anyone would want to shoulder the expense of such an act when sanctions are far less expensive and more diplomatic.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 16, 2004, 8:09 pm

Not a chance. The economies of the United States and the rest of the world are too interwined. If you impose a trade sanction on the United States, you'll most likely be screwed in another area of trade.

I disagree. I believe an united European Union along with Asia would do just fine. Would provide everything needed and wouldn't suffer that much really in the long run. Would have to rebuild economies to a certain degree but I don't think it would be too painful.

Do you think then we could keep jobs in America?

A very good question. I suppose some works would be created, some would disappear and some straw companies would be created overseas to avoid the export ban.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 16, 2004, 8:18 pm

Actually I think the sanctions against us would benefit us in the long run. I think we would become more self sufficient and develope new and better ways of doing things. Neccesity is the mother of invention right? Well I think we would be in a world of need if we got nailed with sanctions.

Kwonryu DragonFist · September 16, 2004, 8:46 pm

Winnow wrote:
Kwonryu DragonFist wrote:Scarey times indeed!

What did Mr. Notre Dame aka Nostradamus say about this?
That the Eagle and the Bear would fight the Dragon! He also predicted breast implants.

Eagle(US) and Bear(Russia) fight Dragon(China) ?

Must've missed that! What page did Nostromo aka Nostradamus say that?

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » September 16, 2004, 11:14 pm

The "OMG, the US would pwn the UN" line is l337! Teh US is teh winnah!

The US had a gripe with Iraq because of the actions of its leader and what threat he posed to the internal security of other nations. The UN was opposed to his actions, and rightly so. Ironically enough, the UN has a gripe with the US because of the actions of its leader and the threat that he poses to the internal security of other nations (Iraq, Iran, Syria, N. Korea.

I am disinterested in this discussion because of half of the participants can't get any further than the "OMG they s0x0r and we would totally pwn them!!111!!!11!!!one!!!eleven!!!1!!!1" line.

Noel, I would recommend that you heed the advice of my father when he said, "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it annoys the pig." You are mistaken in thinking that this is an open forum from the rational exchange of ideas.

noel · Post by **noel** » September 16, 2004, 11:28 pm

Arch,

No worries.

I mostly posted it so that the rational people on the forum would see the article. Chmee's response was very good, and likely very accurate.

The only thing that really annoyed me was Midnyte questioning my patriotism. If he lived closer, he'd be eating my vibranium/adamantium shield. (hopefully a few people get that reference)

Kind of in summation to those that want to label me un-American for exercising a little prudence when examining the actions of my goverment:

Corrupt government officials that break the laws, mislead the public, or use their power for their own ends have no place in this country. For that reason alone, it's important to think critically about what our government is doing, and why they're doing it. I'm not suggesting that the Iraq war didn't have a positive affect, or that any of our elected officials are corrupt, or purposefully misleading the public, I'm merely suggesting that we as citizens have a civic duty to question their actions and make sure that they don't and aren't.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 16, 2004, 11:35 pm

noel wrote:Arch,

No worries.

I mostly posted it so that the rational people on the forum would see the article. Chmee's response was very good, and likely very accurate.

The only thing that really annoyed me was Midnyte questioning my patriotism. If he lived closer, he'd be eating my vibranium/adamantium shield. (hopefully a few people get that reference)

Kind of in summation to those that want to label me un-American for exercising a little prudence when examining the actions of my goverment:

Corrupt government officials that break the laws, mislead the public, or use their power for their own ends have no place in this country. For that reason alone, it's important to think critically about what our government is doing, and why they're doing it. I'm not suggesting that the Iraq war didn't have a positive affect, or that any of our elected officials are corrupt, or purposefully misleading the public, I'm merely suggesting that we as citizens have a civic duty to question their actions and make sure that they don't and aren't.

I didn't question your patriotism and please try and not resort to violence. It's really uncivilized to do so.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » September 16, 2004, 11:37 pm

reminds me of anakin in star wars II talking about how stupid and slow democratic decisons are.

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » September 17, 2004, 12:11 am

Kelshara wrote:Should just kick the US out of UN and rebuild from there.

Great Idea! With 36% of their funding gone, I am sure they would thrive!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 17, 2004, 12:56 am

I didn't question your patriotism and please try and not resort to violence. It's really uncivilized to do so.

Wish your president would take that advice.

Great Idea! With 36% of their funding gone, I am sure they would thrive!

Hence why I said rebuild from there. And with removal of veto rights and rebuilding UN into actually being able to do anything but jump when the US says jump, I am certain other countries would be happy to work together to catch up. Not to mention that the US might fund parts of it but they are an expense as well!

Chmee is most likely right though. As long as countries (including but not only the US) only want UN to do anything when it benefits themself it wont get anywhere. We need to move on from there. Asap.

noel · Post by **noel** » September 17, 2004, 1:33 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I didn't question your patriotism and please try and not resort to violence. It's really uncivilized to do so.

It's a Captain America reference you fucking tool.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » September 17, 2004, 1:41 am

noel wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I didn't question your patriotism and please try and not resort to violence. It's really uncivilized to do so.
It's a Captain America reference you fucking tool.

I beg to differ. Midnyte knows a thing or two about being threatened, I'm sure it happens twice a day IRL...

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 17, 2004, 2:13 am

Avestan wrote:Great Idea! With 36% of their funding gone, I am sure they would thrive!

36% of their fu.. the US hasnt paid the UN their share since clinton's first term in office.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » September 17, 2004, 6:21 am

And now the obligatory Snatch quote...

Bullet Tooth Tony : So, you are obviously the big dick. The men on the side of ya are your balls. There are two types of balls. There are big brave balls, and there are little mincey faggot balls.
Vinny : These are your last words, so make them a prayer.
Bullet Tooth Tony : Now, dicks have drive and clarity of vision, but they are not clever. They smell pussy and they want a piece of the action. And you thought you smelled some good old pussy, and have brought your two small mincey faggot balls along for a good old time. But you've got your parties mangled up. There's no pussy here, just a dose that'll make you wish you were born a woman. Like a prick, you are having second thoughts. You are shrinking, and your two little balls are shrinking with ya. The fact that you've got "Replica" written down the side of your gun. (withdraws his gun) And the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point five O" written on the side of mine, should precipitate your balls into shrinking, along with your presence. Now... Fuck off.

miir · Post by **miir** » September 17, 2004, 12:12 pm

noel wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I didn't question your patriotism and please try and not resort to violence. It's really uncivilized to do so.
It's a Captain America reference you fucking tool.

Every time I think that Midnyte couldn't say anything to make himself look even more moronic....