Issues Check!

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Metanis
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Issues Check!

Post by Metanis »

Here I sit Sunday evening about 7 weeks before the election. You liberals have all bemoaned how "the issues" are getting short shrift in the current climate.

So I pull up the AP Politics section on Yahoo. And to my surprise... what "issues" are making headlines from those fine Democrats?

Edwards -
Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards on Sunday accused President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney of misleading Americans by implying a link between deposed Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks
Kerry -
John Kerry suggested Saturday night that Republicans may try to keep black voters from casting their ballots to help President Bush win in November. "We are not going to stand by and allow another million African American votes to go uncounted in this election," the Democratic presidential nominee told the Congressional Black Caucus
Gore -
Al Gore's stiff jokes are gone now, replaced by recount jokes. The cautious campaigner of 2000 is gone, too, replaced by a fire-breathing Bush basher.
Where's the beef?

Let me paint you a very simple picture. None of these 3 prominent Democrats are talking about "the issues".

You might well ask, but what about Bush?

Bush -
President Bush marked the "terrible events" of the Sept. 11 attacks with quiet observances of the third anniversary Saturday and a new call to arms against terrorists who might seek to harm the nation.
Read 'em and weep folks. You liberal Democrats have dealt yourself another Dukakis or McGovern hand.
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Post by kyoukan »

I realize you're trolling because you lack attention in your real life. Aand with people as stupid as you, the more it dawns on you how stupid you are, the more shrill and trollish you will get.. But regardless of that how is Bush displaying more phony sympathy to 9/11 victims so he can continue his little oil grab more of an issue than Kerry and Edwards showing Americans how they have been mislead and lied to?
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

kyoukan wrote:I realize you're trolling because you lack attention in your real life. Aand with people as stupid as you, the more it dawns on you how stupid you are, the more shrill and trollish you will get.. But regardless of that how is Bush displaying more phony sympathy to 9/11 victims so he can continue his little oil grab more of an issue than Kerry and Edwards showing Americans how they have been mislead and lied to?
Truth hurts eh? After sucking the anti-Bush crowd cock for so long and now you don't even get the sweet release of his losing this election. Poor Kyocunt.
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Post by Sionistic »

taking the best of one side and comparing it to the worst of the other side: made easy!(tm)
get your copy today!
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Metanis
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Post by Metanis »

Sionistic wrote:taking the best of one side and comparing it to the worst of the other side: made easy!(tm)
get your copy today!
No sir. those were the actual headline snippets as posted at

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index&cid=536

Of course that page is dynamic and I can't recreate it for you now. But don't you see? That's a delicious component of my point!

!!! During a totally random moment in time when they COULD have been talking about the real issues facing this nation the Democrats were NOT !!!

All 3 Democrats were attacking Bush... nothing more. Bush was the only one talking about something EXTERNAL to the election dynamics itself.
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Metanis
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Post by Metanis »

kyoukan wrote:I realize you're trolling because you lack attention in your real life. Aand with people as stupid as you, the more it dawns on you how stupid you are, the more shrill and trollish you will get.. But regardless of that how is Bush displaying more phony sympathy to 9/11 victims so he can continue his little oil grab more of an issue than Kerry and Edwards showing Americans how they have been mislead and lied to?
Geez Kooky, you aren't even trying. "F" for total lack of effort here.
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Post by Arborealus »

Metanis wrote:
Sionistic wrote:taking the best of one side and comparing it to the worst of the other side: made easy!(tm)
get your copy today!
No sir. those were the actual headline snippets as posted at

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=index&cid=536

Of course that page is dynamic and I can't recreate it for you now. But don't you see? That's a delicious component of my point!

!!! During a totally random moment in time when they COULD have been talking about the real issues facing this nation the Democrats were NOT !!!

All 3 Democrats were attacking Bush... nothing more. Bush was the only one talking about something EXTERNAL to the election dynamics itself.
The phrase "sound and fury signifying nothing" comes to mind...
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Post by Lynks »

but but but, yahoo news is biased to the right...
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Sionistic
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Post by Sionistic »

unfortunatly, because bush has made such an ass out of himself, many people have the "anybody but bush" mentality, and since the best candidate the dem's could muster was this almost living walking plank called Kerry, they need to attack bush as much as possible
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Post by Kelshara »

Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards on Sunday accused President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney of misleading Americans by implying a link between deposed Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks
Not sure how that can be taken as anything but an issue. And a truth as well.
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Post by Metanis »

Kelshara wrote:
Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards on Sunday accused President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney of misleading Americans by implying a link between deposed Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks
Not sure how that can be taken as anything but an issue. And a truth as well.
1. It's in the past. It's looking backwards. It's rehashing the same old argument that MOST people have already decided is HISTORY.

2. It's questioning or attacking the current administration RATHER than boldly going where no man has gone before!

3. It's giving your competition even more air time and column inches.

4. It's negative and defeatist.

Don't get me wrong, it's fine for Kerry/Edwards to draw contrasts and differences with Bush/Cheney. IMHO however this particular charge (Bush misled the nation) doesn't have much mileage left in it. In other words... MOVEON.

I understand you Bush haters love to hear the same old stuff over and over. I'm sure you get your rocks off. I suspect however that it is actually hurting Kerry/Edwards more than it helps.
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Post by Thess »

Here is the full text of Edwards speech:
September 11, 2004
Remarks to the Congressional Black Caucus Prayer Breakfast
Remarks of John Edwards
For Immediate Release

Washington, DC - Good morning. Today, on this day of remembrance and mourning, we have the Lord’s word to get us through. “The bricks have fallen, but we will build with dressed stones; the sycamores have been cut down, but we will put cedars in their place.”

And let me show you how we are building and putting cedars in those three hallowed places—the footprints of the Towers, the Pentagon, and the field in Pennsylvania. Walk with me through this day and you will see that this is a season of hope.

For at this moment, just outside of New York, a mother laces up her daughter’s shoes. And they are ready to start their long walk through this day. The daughter is two and a half. She can say his name, “Dad.” She can point to his picture, but she does not know him.

On this day, they go to Central Park to remember with the other families. Then, they head downtown to place a flower where he died—the once tall tower where he left his first, last and only message addressed to her. And they return home still in their Sunday bests after a Saturday of sorrow.

So walk with me through this day.

Today, a town gathers in front of their church. It is a town where so many—53—were taken before their time. For a week after that September day, the Lord’s doors were open. The Lord’s doors were open for that hour of loneliness just before dawn. That night when the silence inside the house was too much to bear. And for that moment when just missing their wife, their husband and the love of their life was the greatest pain they’d ever known.

But today, they are there to ring a new church bell—a gift born out of their grief. They want it to ring from the bell tower to ensure that “sorrow and sighing shall flee away.” That bell will toll for the souls gone home. It will toll for those who still weep. And it will toll for those who rejoice in life’s great gifts.

Walk with me through this day.

And across our great river, the men and women who stood at their posts at the Pentagon; who helped rescue the wounded and carried the dying, and who still guard their post at this moment will pause in a sea of stone and valor. They will lay a wreath. They will pray onward soldier you answered your calling here but your work is not done in the Lord’s house. And they will pray for those whose wounds have not healed—the burns that cause them great pain every time they reach out to hold their wife’s hand until the stars rise and the night falls on this day in September.

So walk with me through this day.

To that field in Pennsylvania where—the mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, friends and neighbors of that day’s warriors—will stand in the middle of all things beautiful. They will read the names of those who charged. Those who fought back. Those who never gave up so that evil never had the chance to finish its plan. They come together, as their loved ones did, to find hope in the middle of the Lord’s green field.

They will sing. They will pray. And they will lay a wreath where Flight 93 fell. And in a place where smoke once rose, you and I we will see that cedar rising.

Walk with me through this day.

At this hour and all day long, strangers will follow the Lord’s wish. In memory and in the hope that goodwill and grace will always triumph out of tragedy, they will give. In “a day’s payment of service,” New York City firefighters will give and fly to California to help rebuild homes destroyed in the fires. Businessmen from Long Island will give and take sick kids to a ball game. Men and women in Memphis will give and build wheelchair ramps for the disabled. And there are thousands standing in Afghanistan, standing in the very place where evil grew, giving their service to ensure that evil never rises again.

These Americans will give because so many were taken from us. And for them—the three strangers who came together to start this day of service—a mother who lost her son, a brother who lost a brother, and a friend who lost a friend—for them September 11th is never in the past; it is enduring. It is never just an anniversary; it is a time of renewal for each and every one of us to do God’s work here on earth.

So walk with me through this day.

At this breakfast, our prayers will be heard and answered for those who still need comfort. They need a hand to hold as they try over and over again to forget the crashing windows, the fire, and the falling steel that took their coworkers but not them. They need the comfort of prayers as they sit in solitude. They have their head in their hands as they wonder like the other tens of thousands who walked out—why I lived and the others did not. And they need to know that we are with them even when it feels like we aren’t as they try to rebuild their lives without.

Whether it’s one year, two years, three years or until our short time on this earth comes to an end. Those who lost that day will always miss them. Those who worked night and day until the last cart was carried out of Ground Zero will always know they did their best. And those who unfurled their flags, gave blood, comforted a child who lost their Dad, and made that day the defining day for them to leave their mark on this earth—we will always remember that unity of purpose.

Walk with me through this day. And you will see that while those bricks fell and the sycamores cut down, our people are making those cedars rise.

“And let us not grow weary in well-doing for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart.”



And let us not grow weary of taking care of those families. Let us not grow weary of praying for those soldiers who defend us from that evil at this hour. Let us not grow weary for giving up a day in our lives for those who are gone. And let us not grow weary in our determination to never forget, to never grow indifferent to what occurred that dark day in September.

This season of hope does not have to end tomorrow. We do not have to wait for yet another anniversary to come and go. We know what we want in this country. We want that one America.

There have been few times when we saw the possibilities of one America more than on September 11, 2001. All Americans, black and white, young and old, rich and poor, were bound together in tragedy and resolve to ensure that once again good triumphed over evil.

Sitting here today, after so long in the desert, it may seem like a mirage. But we know it is real, and that it is possible because we have seen it. We want one America. We want that hope, that faith, and that purpose without the tears, the pain, and the sorrow.

You know, I have learned two lessons in my life. One is that there will always be heartache and struggle in our lives. We can’t make it go away. And the other is that people of good will can make a difference. One lesson is sad and the other is inspiring. And walking together through this day, we choose to be inspired because we know that we can fulfill the promise.

In times like these, if we can work together, comfort together, and help communities rebuild together, then let’s do that for all of the challenges that exists right now and build one America.

For that child we see every day sitting on the front step, locked out and alone, let’s work together to give him a safe place to go with friends and teachers while his mom works.

For that mother who works hard all day—forty hours plus a week—and she still has to sit at the kitchen table and divide her bills into pay now and pay later, let’s work together to give her a country that honors work so she can get ahead.

For that whole town that’s watched their factory lock its doors, let’s work together to make sure that we bring opportunity and an equal chance to their front door.

For that young boy who always sits in the back of the classroom unable to read the basic instructions, but is too scared to ask for help, let’s build him a school that’s a palace for learning so no child is ever afraid to ask for help.

And for that family we know on every street. The mother and father are working hard. He takes the late-bus to work and she takes the early bus. They’re doing what’s right, what they’re supposed to do to take care of their family. And yet later tonight, they might have to put their kids to bed hungry again because they can’t afford dinner on a Saturday.

So let’s work together to end poverty. Now some are going to say “end poverty” you can’t do that. That’s something we’ve been fighting for centuries. We just have to live with it. Says who?

Anything is possible in this country when you and I work together. If we put a man on the moon; if we conquered diseases like polio; if we can live through a terrible day like September 11th , then we can build the Lord’s house in every heart and home across this land.

Some days sorrow just storms in doesn’t it. You wake up one beautiful morning and the kingdom is at hand. You’re on your way to work, to school, or to fly west to see your family. You’re washing down the fire truck or walking the halls in the Pentagon. You’re waving good bye to your young son on his first day at his new job. You’re just talking on the phone with your child. And then sorrow hits.

It never asks if it can drop by. It doesn’t knock. And it never asks if you’re ready. It just hits and knocks everything down. And the next day, grief washes over thousands and sorrow surrounds us.

But we know how to beat it back. In America, we always rise up. Sometimes not on the first day or the second day, but we begin to rise up and build something new.

This is who we are, and this is the eternal spirit of America.

That is why that young girl who never knew her father, will feel the comfort of millions as we walk with her through this day and her life. That is why the men and women at the Pentagon will feel the prayers of millions as they salute their fallen. That is why the families in Pennsylvania will know that we weep with them. That is why the firefighters and police officers who miss their brothers will know that we miss them too. And that is why a new bell tolls in a church on the other side of the Hudson River.

You and I, we hear it. It tolls once for the dead. It tolls a second time for the mournful. And the third time, it tolls for us. It tolls for us to seek joy in our families, comfort in our children, and hope in our neighbors.

Each time that bell tolls, it calls us to a greater purpose. It calls us to never forget. It calls us to do the Lord’s work here on earth. And it calls on us to always remember that when we walk through this day together—the cedars will rise, the stones will go up, and this season of hope will endure.

Thank you and God bless you, the families and friends who mourn, and our great United States of America.
Here is the full text of John Kerry's speech:
Congressional Black Caucus Foundation’s 34th Annual Legislative Conference
Remarks of John Kerry
For Immediate Release

Washington, DC - As we remember too painfully, it was three years ago today, in a single instant, that our lives and our land were changed forever. Three years ago today, 3,000 innocent people were lost in the worst day we’ve ever seen.

Today has been a day of remembrance and tribute. But what really matters is what we do tomorrow and the day after to honor their lives. We honor their lives by never forgetting what they meant to us. We honor their lives by bringing their killers to justice and making sure this never happens again. And we honor their lives in the work we do every day to build a stronger America.

That’s why you’re here. That’s what the CBC is all about.

And that’s why I’m running for president.

I don’t have to tell you -- this is the most important election of our lifetime. Everything is on the line: our jobs, our health care, our role in the world, the character of our country – the Supreme Court of the United States. The stakes are high and the choices are clear.

On issue after issue, the other side has been trying to muddy the waters to keep us from seeing the real differences and the real choices in this election.

But on every issue, from Iraq to Social Security, from fiscal discipline to education, from voting rights to affirmative action, we know the truth. And John Edwards and I are going to fight every day to show the difference between their tired, old, negative politics of the past and a new direction for America.

Nobody understands those differences more than the 39 members of the Congressional Black Caucus. You live with those choices every day and you see the impact they’re having on our families and communities. You see the impact they have on your ability to legislate and to represent the people you serve back home. And in this room are some of the best ideas to make our nation stronger. But over the last four years, you’ve been shut out of the debate. They’ve refused you meetings and put a “do not enter” sign on the White House door.

Well, my friends, it’s time to open the doors and let all Americans back in. Because we deserve a president who doesn’t just meet with the people he agrees with. And we deserve a president who’s not afraid to sit down with the NAACP, the Black Caucus or the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights. We deserve a president who wants to sit down with them and recognizes how important it is to governing our country. We deserve a president who doesn’t go to Dr. King’s gravesite one day and the next day appoints a right-wing judge to the federal court. When I’m president, no one’s going to have to twist my arm to remind me that your voices matter and they must be heard.

We’ve been partners on the legislative battlefield for a long time now. Long before this president showed up, we’ve been fighting to bring hope and opportunity to those who for too long have been left out. Long before this president recognized the global threat of AIDS, we worked together to meet this challenge with the moral and economic might of America.

Your dedication and your service live out the teaching of the Scripture in ways that others should take example from: “It is not enough, my brother, to say you have faith, when there are no deeds…Faith without works is dead.” As you know, my friends, we are taught to walk by faith not by sight.

And when we look around us – when we look around our neighborhoods and towns and cities all across this country, we see faith to be lived out, and so many deeds to be done.

We see jobs to be created. We see families to house. We see violence to stop. We see children to teach – and children to care for. We see too many people without health care and too many people of color suffering and dying from diseases like AIDS and cancer and diabetes.

We look at what is happening in America today and are forced to ask: Where are the deeds?

The fact is, the wrong choices of the Bush Administration – reduced taxes for the few and reduced opportunities for the middle class and those struggling to join it – are taking us back to two Americas -- separate and unequal. Our cities and communities are being torn apart by divisive and destructive forces: crumbling schools robbing our children of their potential…rising poverty…rising crime, drugs and violence. Lost jobs, health care costs through the roof, the surplus gone, our alliances shredded, our influence challenged.

They see what we see but their answer is to say we’ve turned the corner or that the job is getting done or that this is the best that we can do. They’ve even mocked the very notion that there are two Americas. Well, they should spend time with struggling families in the hills of Appalachia … or in public housing in Detroit … or in the barrios of East LA and then tell us our journey to build one America is finished.

As Congressman Jefferson knows, a few days ago I had the pleasure of speaking to the 124th annual session of the National Baptist Convention in New Orleans. I reminded them that four years ago, this president came to office calling himself a “compassionate conservative.” Well in the story of the Good Samaritan, we are told of two men who pass by or cross to the other side of the street when they come upon a robbed and beaten man. They felt compassion, but there were no deeds. Then the Good Samaritan gave both his heart and his help. [Luke 10]

It is clear: For four years, this president has talked about compassion, but he’s walked right by. He’s seen people in need, but he’s crossed over to the other side of the street. For four years, we've heard a lot of talk about values. But values are not just words. They're what we live by. They're about the causes we champion and the choices we make.

This election all comes down to one decision: Do we want four more years of wrong choices for our country, or do we want to move America in a new direction?

Of all the president’s wrong choices, the most catastrophic one is the mess he’s made in Iraq. It’s not that I would have done one thing differently in Iraq, I would have done almost everything differently. It was wrong to rush to war without a plan to win the peace. It was wrong not to build a strong international coalition of our allies.

And because we went it alone, we are bearing the burden and paying almost all the cost by ourselves. Almost all the casualties are the sons and daughters of America. And 90 percent of the costs are being met by Americans – the total so far: $200 billion and rising every day. That’s $200 billion we’re not investing in health care and education That’s $200 billion we’re not investing to make sure no child is left behind. That’s $200 billion we’re not investing in incentives to create and keep good jobs in the United States of America. That’s $200 billion we’re not investing in homeland security to keep cops on the street, to protect our airports, our subways, our bridges and tunnels. Is that compassionate? Is that the right choice? Well, 52 days from now we’re going to move America in a new direction.

At that convention in New York, the Bush Administration actually said that outsourcing jobs is good for this nation. That shouldn’t be a surprise because that’s what they’ve done for four years, and, if they have the chance, that’s what they will do for four more years. In the last three years, America has lost 1.6 million jobs. And African-American unemployment is nearly 10 percent – double the rate for whites. That’s more than a twenty-five percent increase since this president took office.

My friends, the promise of a better America is not being met when in the last year alone, a million more people have fallen into poverty…when one-third of African American children are living in poverty or when half the black men in New York City are out of work. Is that compassionate? Is that right? Well, 52 days from now we’re going to move America in a new direction.

It has been said before, but it is so true: The best poverty program is a job. That is why, as President, I will set a new direction. We’re going to close the tax loopholes that reward companies for shipping jobs overseas. Instead, we’re going to use common sense and reward companies that create and keep good jobs here in America. And we are going to do more to bring hope and jobs and businesses back to our hardest-pressed urban and metropolitan areas.

At that convention in New York, this president actually promised the American people that after four years of failure, he now had a plan to get health care costs under control. Well, if you weren’t suspicious enough of a plan announced two months before an election, we only had to wait twenty-four hours to find out what he meant. The day after he spoke, he raised Medicare premiums by 17 percent -- the biggest increase in Medicare premiums in the history of the program.

Under the Bush Administration, 5 million Americans have lost their health insurance, including 400,000 African Americans. We know that people of color are significantly more likely to suffer diseases like cancer and asthma and diabetes and AIDS. And what’s this administration’s answer? At a time when the need is greatest, they have cut funding for Medicaid and children’s health insurance. Instead of working to close disparities, they have closed the Office of Minority Health at CDC. That’s the wrong choice and the wrong direction for America.

This president believes when it comes to health care, the big drug companies come first, the insurance companies come second, and the American people come last. That’s the wrong choice and the wrong direction for America.

As President, I will set a new direction. I’m going to put hard working families first. Our plan will take on the waste and greed in the health care system and save the average family up to $1,000 a year on their premiums. Our plan will cover all children – automatically -- day one. Go to school, you’re covered. Go to day care, you’re enrolled. Every child in America will be covered. When I am president, America will stop being the only advanced nation in the world which fails to understand that health care is not a privilege for the wealthy, the connected, and the elected, it is a right for all Americans.

At that convention in New York, this president actually talked about demanding accountability from everybody in education -- except his own administration. We know that you can’t really get the job done in our classrooms when too many children, especially children of color, are forced to attend overcrowded and crumbling schools and are being taught by overworked and underpaid teachers. The promise of a better America is not being met when only 50 percent of African Americans are finishing high school and only 18 percent are graduating college. The promise of a better America is not being met, when, fifty years after Brown v. the Board of Education, in too many parts of our country we still have two school systems – separate and unequal. That’s the wrong choice and the wrong direction – and we’re going to change it.

As President, I will set a new direction. We know the answer to closing the achievement gap is both higher expectations and greater resources. You cannot promise to leave no child behind and then leave the money behind. John Edwards and I have a plan to invest in our future, provide the needed funding and put a good teacher in every classroom – so that all our children will have the chance to develop their God-given potential.

Fifty years after the Brown decision, we are also reminded that now, more than ever, we need a Supreme Court that will protect our hard won victories.

It was just four short years ago that the Court – by one vote – decided the outcome of the race for president. It was less than a year ago that the Court – by one vote – decided the fate of affirmative action. One vote can make the difference for millions of Americans, and over the next four years the President of the United States may well appoint as many as four Supreme Court justices. I will appoint judges who follow the Potter Stewart standard, “The mark of a good judge is a judge whose opinion you can read and have no idea if the judge was a man or a woman, Republican or Democrat, a Christian or a Jew. You just know he or she was a good judge.”

And good judges know that the right to vote is the most sacred of all American rights. Good judges will stand up for the Voting Rights Act – and so must we. Let me make one thing clear: We’re not going to stand by and allow another million African American votes to go uncounted in this election. We’re not going to stand by and allow acts of voter suppression.

We are hearing the same things you are hearing. What they did in Florida in 2000, they may be planning to do in battleground states all across this country this year. Well, we are here to let them know that we will fight tooth and nail to make sure that this time, every vote is counted and every vote counts.

We have many deeds to do here at home. But we must also set a new direction for America’s leadership in the world. The U.S. and the UN Security Council now face a testing moment of truth – they must decide whether to take action to halt the killing in Darfur or remain idle in the face of the second African genocide in 10 years.

Now that the Secretary Powell has finally acknowledged that genocide is underway, we all want to know one thing: what is President Bush going to do about it? The toothless resolution the Bush Administration brought to the Security Council is not an acceptable response.

If I were president, I would act now. As I’ve said for months, I would not sit idly by. We simply cannot accept another Rwanda. The United States should ensure the immediate deployment of an effective international force to disarm militia, protect civilians and facilitate delivery of humanitarian assistance in Darfur. The Sudanese Government has thus far rejected such a force. The U.S. should lead the United Nations to impose tough sanctions now. The Government of Sudan must understand that the world will act, if they do not, and that the United States is prepared to support the African Union with crucial capabilities of our own, if necessary, to halt the genocide.

So, we’ve got work to do. We have to march. We have to do the hard work of changing people’s minds. We have to expand opportunity and close the gaps of inequality that impede the progress of our nation. Together, we can stop being what W.E.B. DuBois called, “a nation within a nation.” Our job, between now and November is to end the division between the fortunate America and the forgotten America. We must come to together to build one America – because we know as Dr. King told us, that what’s good for black America is good for all America.

As I said before, this is the most important election of our lifetime. If you believe that this country is heading in the right direction, you should keep them in office. But if you believe, like I think you do, that we can’t afford for more years of the wrong choices and the wrong direction, then join with us for an America that’s stronger at home and respected in the world.

And let me say this: The black vote is going to be critical this year. We can’t afford to sit this one out or leave it up to our neighbor – and we won’t. We can’t afford to take any vote for granted – and we won’t. We can’t afford four more years. My friends, I need your vote. And I need your help. And I’m asking for it now.

We have 52 days left until the election. The clock is ticking. Together, we can make the right choices. We can come together. We can fulfill the promise of a better America. There are those who want to divide us into red states and blue states. Not me. I want to unite us as one America – red, white and blue.

Thank you, God bless you, and God bless the United States of America.
Both of these speeches were made on september 11th, so of course issues aren't really being discussed.
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Post by Asheran Mojomaster »

Metanis wrote:
Kelshara wrote:
Democratic vice presidential candidate John Edwards on Sunday accused President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney of misleading Americans by implying a link between deposed Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks
Not sure how that can be taken as anything but an issue. And a truth as well.
1. It's in the past. It's looking backwards. It's rehashing the same old argument that MOST people have already decided is HISTORY.

2. It's questioning or attacking the current administration RATHER than boldly going where no man has gone before!

3. It's giving your competition even more air time and column inches.

4. It's negative and defeatist.

Don't get me wrong, it's fine for Kerry/Edwards to draw contrasts and differences with Bush/Cheney. IMHO however this particular charge (Bush misled the nation) doesn't have much mileage left in it. In other words... MOVEON.

I understand you Bush haters love to hear the same old stuff over and over. I'm sure you get your rocks off. I suspect however that it is actually hurting Kerry/Edwards more than it helps.
History? In the past? You mean like Kerry's war record? That was a shitload farther back in time than when Cheney made those comments and it seems to still matter.
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Post by Kelshara »

Of course all those 4 points Metanis made suits the Bush administration's campaign better than the Democrats'. But I guess that doesn't matter since it is Bush, eh? What happened to the integrity of the candidates being so important?

Gotta love double standards.
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Post by Zaelath »

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Are you suggesting that airline travellers should forget history and allow hijackers to fly more planes into buildings?

Are you suggesting that it's OK to mislead the public as long as you get away with it long enough that it's no longer a "current event"?

It's amazing how blinkered partisan bleating can rationalise anything.
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Post by Voronwë »

LOL are you suggesting past events....ESPECIALLY those events the president is directly responsible for have no bearing on whether or not he should continue his position as the President of the United States?

have you ever held a job?

have you ever had a "review"?
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Re: Issues Check!

Post by Niffoni »

Metanis wrote:Bush -
President Bush marked the "terrible events" of the Sept. 11 attacks with quiet observances of the third anniversary Saturday and a new call to arms against terrorists who might seek to harm the nation.
The dems are talking out their asses, and wasting time, but I fail to see how this is any more "the issues" than the above quotes.
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Re: Issues Check!

Post by Metanis »

Niffoni wrote:
Metanis wrote:Bush -
President Bush marked the "terrible events" of the Sept. 11 attacks with quiet observances of the third anniversary Saturday and a new call to arms against terrorists who might seek to harm the nation.
The dems are talking out their asses, and wasting time, but I fail to see how this is any more "the issues" than the above quotes.
From Time Magazine http://www.time.com/time/press_releases ... 62,00.html
Most important issues: When asked what they consider are the most important issues, 25% of registered voters cited the economy as the top issue, followed by 24% who cited the war on terrorism as the top issue. The situation in Iraq was rated the top issue by 17% of registered voters, moral values issues such as gay marriage and abortion were the top issue for 16% of respondents, and health care was the most important issue for 11% of respondents.
Bush is addressing something seen as an important issue by a lot of people yet.

I still contend that Edwards trying to assess blame on Bush is not dealing with the issues in a substantive manner. It's like trying to assess blame for spilt milk. What's done is done.

Let me throw out some further reasoning why it's self-defeating to try and blame Bush. When USA invaded Iraq a substantial majority of the USA supported the invasion. The unspoken reality of the situation is you are imputing these people are tools for believing Bush and supporting the war.

Now they can get all hostile and shout Bush Lied - Kids Died... but a lot of people supported the war. They want to accept the faulty intelligence excuse. It squares with their own experience. It's a plausible way out of their own dilemma of why they supported the invasion in the first place. Nuance? Sure, but for the relatively few undecided voters all this nuance matters.

Just so you know, I'm not in that category. I fully support the war. It needs to be fought and it needs to be fought on our terms and not theirs.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

I fully support the war. It needs to be fought and it needs to be fought on our terms and not theirs
wtf does that even mean? youre going to persuade them all to stand in a big crowd so you can carpet bomb them? or what?
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

vn_Tanc wrote:
I fully support the war. It needs to be fought and it needs to be fought on our terms and not theirs
wtf does that even mean? youre going to persuade them all to stand in a big crowd so you can carpet bomb them? or what?
You're not a very bright person are you?
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Post by vn_Tanc »

On the contrary.
I genuinely clarificationon that statement because it sounds like meaningless rhetoric to me.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

vn_Tanc wrote:On the contrary.
I genuinely clarificationon that statement because it sounds like meaningless rhetoric to me.
It sounds ffairly reasonable to me. He supports the war and it needs to be fought, and the need for it to be fought on our terms not theirs. Doesn't sound all that complicated.
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Post by Zaelath »

vn_Tanc wrote:On the contrary.
I genuinely clarificationon that statement because it sounds like meaningless rhetoric to me.
I think you're drinking faster than you type today...! ;)
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Post by Lynks »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
vn_Tanc wrote:On the contrary.
I genuinely clarificationon that statement because it sounds like meaningless rhetoric to me.
It sounds ffairly reasonable to me. He supports the war and it needs to be fought, and the need for it to be fought on our terms not theirs. Doesn't sound all that complicated.
Do you know what rhetoric means?
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Post by Burke »

Mid,
Please clarify "fought on our terms not theirs"

Thanks
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Post by Metanis »

Burke wrote:Mid,
Please clarify "fought on our terms not theirs"

Thanks
Proactive... not reactive. Fighting them where they live rather than on our soil. Actively searching them out and killing them rather than wringing our hands and moaning about when the UN is going to do something. Advocating and actively attempting to start Iraq on the path to democratic government. Doing the same with Afghanistan.
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Post by Kelshara »

What Metanis is trying to say is "Kill'em all and let their god sort'em out".
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Post by Acies »

Metanis wrote:
Burke wrote:Mid,
Please clarify "fought on our terms not theirs"

Thanks
Proactive... not reactive. Fighting them where they live rather than on our soil. Actively searching them out and killing them rather than wringing our hands and moaning about when the UN is going to do something. Advocating and actively attempting to start Iraq on the path to democratic government. Doing the same with Afghanistan.
Fucking hell Metanis, Iraq was NOT a terrorist country like you seem to believe.
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Post by Metanis »

Kelshara wrote:What Metanis is trying to say is "Kill'em all and let their god sort'em out".
You been taking lessons from Osama?
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Post by Cartalas »

Acies wrote:
Metanis wrote:
Burke wrote:Mid,
Please clarify "fought on our terms not theirs"

Thanks
Proactive... not reactive. Fighting them where they live rather than on our soil. Actively searching them out and killing them rather than wringing our hands and moaning about when the UN is going to do something. Advocating and actively attempting to start Iraq on the path to democratic government. Doing the same with Afghanistan.
Fucking hell Metanis, Iraq was NOT a terrorist country like you seem to believe.
Bullshit!!! Tell Kuwait that, Tell Iran That, Hell even tell there own people that.
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Post by Metanis »

Acies wrote:Fucking hell Metanis, Iraq was NOT a terrorist country like you seem to believe.
I disagree.

Read a history of Saddam's reign of terror.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Read a history of Saddam's reign of terror
Your disingenuous flip-flopping between meanings of the word terror are fooling noone.
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Post by Sylvus »

John Kerry wrote:The fact is, the wrong choices of the Bush Administration – reduced taxes for the few and reduced opportunities for the middle class and those struggling to join it – are taking us back to two Americas -- separate and unequal. Our cities and communities are being torn apart by divisive and destructive forces: crumbling schools robbing our children of their potential…rising poverty…rising crime, drugs and violence. Lost jobs, health care costs through the roof, the surplus gone, our alliances shredded, our influence challenged.

They see what we see but their answer is to say we’ve turned the corner or that the job is getting done or that this is the best that we can do. They’ve even mocked the very notion that there are two Americas. Well, they should spend time with struggling families in the hills of Appalachia … or in public housing in Detroit … or in the barrios of East LA and then tell us our journey to build one America is finished.
Metanis, quoting Time Magazine, wrote:Most important issues: When asked what they consider are the most important issues, 25% of registered voters cited the economy as the top issue, followed by 24% who cited the war on terrorism as the top issue. The situation in Iraq was rated the top issue by 17% of registered voters, moral values issues such as gay marriage and abortion were the top issue for 16% of respondents, and health care was the most important issue for 11% of respondents.
Metanis wrote:It's in the past. It's looking backwards
Sounds like by focusing on Sept. 11 your guy is looking backwards and ignoring the most important issue, our economy.

I have a hard time believing that those items you quoted were all "making headlines" on yahoo news. Since you know it's dynamic now, take a screenshot of it next time instead of just making shit up.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Acies wrote:
Metanis wrote:
Burke wrote:Mid,
Please clarify "fought on our terms not theirs"

Thanks
Proactive... not reactive. Fighting them where they live rather than on our soil. Actively searching them out and killing them rather than wringing our hands and moaning about when the UN is going to do something. Advocating and actively attempting to start Iraq on the path to democratic government. Doing the same with Afghanistan.
Fucking hell Metanis, Iraq was NOT a terrorist country like you seem to believe.
10 WAYS THE LIBERATION OF IRAQ SUPPORTS THE WAR ON TERROR

-With the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraq is no longer a state sponsor of terror. According to State Department reports on terrorism, before the removal of Saddam's regime, Iraq was one of seven state sponsors of terror.

-Saddam Hussein's regime posed a threat to the security of the United States and the world. With the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime, a leader who pursued, used, and possessed weapons of mass destruction is no longer in power.

-Saddam Hussein would not uphold his international commitments, and now that he is no longer in power, the world is safe from this tyrant. The old Iraqi regime defied the international community and seventeen UN resolutions for twelve years and gave every indication that it would never disarm and never comply with the just demands of the world.

-A senior al Qaida terrorist, now detained, who had been responsible for al Qaida training camps in Afghanistan, reports that al Qaida was intent on obtaining WMD assistance from Iraq. According to a credible, high-level al Qaida source, Usama Bin Laden and deceased al Qaida leader Muhammad Atif did not believe that al Qaida labs in Afghanistan were capable of manufacturing chemical and biological weapons, so they turned to Iraq for assistance. Iraq agreed to provide chemical and biological weapons training for two al Qaida associates starting in December 2000.

-Senior al Qaida associate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi came to Baghdad in May 2002 for medical treatment along with approximately two dozen al Qaida terrorist associates. This group stayed in Baghdad and other parts of Iraq and plotted terrorist attacks around the world.

-A safe haven in Iraq belonging to Ansar al-Islam -- a terrorist group closely associated with Zarqawi and al Qaida -- was destroyed during Operation Iraqi Freedom. In March 2003, during a raid on the compound controlled by the terrorists in northeastern Iraq, a cache of documents was discovered, including computer discs and foreign passports belonging to fighters from various Middle East nationalities.

-The al Qaida affiliate Ansar al-Islam is known to still be present in Iraq. Such terrorist groups are now plotting against U.S. forces in Iraq.

-Law enforcement and intelligence operations have disrupted al Qaida associate Abu Musab Zarqawi's poison plotting in France, Britain, Spain, Italy, Germany, and Russia. The facilities in Northern Iraq, set up by Zarqawi and Ansar al-Islam were, before the war, an al Qaida's poisons/toxins laboratory.

-Abu Musa Zarqawi, the al Qaida associate with direct links to Iraq, oversaw those responsible for the assassination of USAID officer Laurence Foley in Amman, Jordan last October.

-Saddam Hussein's Iraq provided material assistance to Palestinian terrorist groups, including the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, HAMAS, and the Palestine Islamic Jihad, according to a State Department report. This included paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, according to testimonials from Palestinians and cancelled checks. Also, according to State Department reports, terrorist groups the Iranian Mujahedin-e-Khalq and the Abu Nidal organization were protected by the Iraqi regime protected by the Iraqi regime.
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Post by Sylvus »

Who compiled your list, David Letterman?

Source your links, please.
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Post by Kelshara »

Metanis wrote:
Kelshara wrote:What Metanis is trying to say is "Kill'em all and let their god sort'em out".
You been taking lessons from Osama?
Nah I sat in on a class by Midnyte for young, aspiring Republicans.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Sylvus wrote:Who compiled your list, David Letterman?

Source your links, please.
Gladly.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/part1.html
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Post by Metanis »

Sylvus wrote:I have a hard time believing that those items you quoted were all "making headlines" on yahoo news.
You are dangerously close to calling me a liar.
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Post by Sylvus »

Eh, I would have no qualms with calling you a liar if I believed you were one. I think you're full of shit most of the time, whether you've been duped into believing it or are telling bald-faced lies, I can't say. Kind of like our president!
Metanis wrote:Al Gore's stiff jokes are gone now, replaced by recount jokes. The cautious campaigner of 2000 is gone, too, replaced by a fire-breathing Bush basher.
That was a headline on Yahoo news? What did the actual headline say, and what did the rest of the story talk about? Nevermind about my earlier questions, I changed my mind (read: flip-flopped), you're a liar.
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Post by Sylvus »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Sylvus wrote:Who compiled your list, David Letterman?

Source your links, please.
Gladly.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/part1.html
your article wrote:August 8, 2003, marks the hundredth day since the end of major combat operations in Iraq. Results in Iraq: 100 Days Toward Security and Freedom presents highlights of the successes shared by post-Saddam Iraqis and their partners in the renewal of their nation.
I'm not sure how reliable I'd call any of that information from over a year ago. You might remember hearing something about some of our intelligence being faulty as well discredited sources of said information since then. Plus it's coming from the White House, who may have a vested interest in making the war seem more justified.
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Post by Metanis »

Sylvus wrote:Eh, I would have no qualms with calling you a liar if I believed you were one. I think you're full of shit most of the time, whether you've been duped into believing it or are telling bald-faced lies, I can't say. Kind of like our president!
Metanis wrote:Al Gore's stiff jokes are gone now, replaced by recount jokes. The cautious campaigner of 2000 is gone, too, replaced by a fire-breathing Bush basher.
That was a headline on Yahoo news? What did the actual headline say, and what did the rest of the story talk about? Nevermind about my earlier questions, I changed my mind (read: flip-flopped), you're a liar.
Fuck you. I don't lie.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... nleashed_2
Gore Unleashes Fury on Democrats' Behalf

Mon Sep 13, 7:36 AM ET

By NANCY BENAC, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Al Gore (news - web sites)'s stiff jokes are gone now, replaced by recount jokes. The cautious campaigner of 2000 is gone, too, replaced by a fire-breathing Bush basher.
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Post by Xyun »

lol

10 WAYS THE LIBERATION OF IRAQ SUPPORTS THE WAR ON TERROR

1-With the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraq is no longer a state sponsor of terror. According to State Department reports on terrorism, before the removal of Saddam's regime, Iraq was one of seven state sponsors of terror.


Using this argument, we still have to invade 5 other countries. Unfortunately, you stupid fucks can't figure out that invading sovereign countries does not decrease terrorism, it increases it.

2-Saddam Hussein's regime posed a threat to the security of the United States and the world. With the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime, a leader who pursued, used, and possessed weapons of mass destruction is no longer in power.

Please prove to me how that regime was a threat to the US. The last part which states he possessed WMD is a bold faced lie and everyone knows it.

3-Saddam Hussein would not uphold his international commitments, and now that he is no longer in power, the world is safe from this tyrant. The old Iraqi regime defied the international community and seventeen UN resolutions for twelve years and gave every indication that it would never disarm and never comply with the just demands of the world.

What a fuckin joke. What if anything does this point have to do with the war on terror?? I don't disagree with this statement, I just think it's funny that morons such as yourself would correlate this with the war on terror.

4--A senior al Qaida terrorist, now detained, who had been responsible for al Qaida training camps in Afghanistan, reports that al Qaida was intent on obtaining WMD assistance from Iraq. According to a credible, high-level al Qaida source, Usama Bin Laden and deceased al Qaida leader Muhammad Atif did not believe that al Qaida labs in Afghanistan were capable of manufacturing chemical and biological weapons, so they turned to Iraq for assistance. Iraq agreed to provide chemical and biological weapons training for two al Qaida associates starting in December 2000.

Yes, because we all know Iraq had a surplus of WMD's and the information obtained from a_senior_al_qaida_terrorist_06 using torture is absolutely and completely true.

5--Senior al Qaida associate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi came to Baghdad in May 2002 for medical treatment along with approximately two dozen al Qaida terrorist associates. This group stayed in Baghdad and other parts of Iraq and plotted terrorist attacks around the world.

The first sentence is true, the 2nd is pure speculation. But who cares? right? half a truth is just as good as a whole truth for some people.

6-A safe haven in Iraq belonging to Ansar al-Islam -- a terrorist group closely associated with Zarqawi and al Qaida -- was destroyed during Operation Iraqi Freedom. In March 2003, during a raid on the compound controlled by the terrorists in northeastern Iraq, a cache of documents was discovered, including computer discs and foreign passports belonging to fighters from various Middle East nationalities.

oh this is a good one. You mean to tell me that more terrorists were in Iraq after the invasion?? NO WAY!! And somehow, this is a reason for invading Iraq. Circular arguments are fun, and stupid people eat em up

7-The al Qaida affiliate Ansar al-Islam is known to still be present in Iraq. Such terrorist groups are now plotting against U.S. forces in Iraq.

AGAIN! Fuck it, if it sells, put it on there twice! In essence, we should have invaded Iraq because now we have all these terrorists there that would have never been there if we didn't invade Iraq. Good logic. Kudos to the white house!

8-Law enforcement and intelligence operations have disrupted al Qaida associate Abu Musab Zarqawi's poison plotting in France, Britain, Spain, Italy, Germany, and Russia. The facilities in Northern Iraq, set up by Zarqawi and Ansar al-Islam were, before the war, an al Qaida's poisons/toxins laboratory.

9--Abu Musa Zarqawi, the al Qaida associate with direct links to Iraq, oversaw those responsible for the assassination of USAID officer Laurence Foley in Amman, Jordan last October.

I might be willing to concede these 2 points. They might be true, however a little evidence would help to convince me even more. point #9 happened after the invasion though, so it could not possibly be a reason for the invasion. oh well, let's move on...

10-Saddam Hussein's Iraq provided material assistance to Palestinian terrorist groups, including the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, HAMAS, and the Palestine Islamic Jihad, according to a State Department report. This included paying the families of Palestinian suicide bombers, according to testimonials from Palestinians and cancelled checks. Also, according to State Department reports, terrorist groups the Iranian Mujahedin-e-Khalq and the Abu Nidal organization were protected by the Iraqi regime protected by the Iraqi regime.

other than the grammatical error, I'll concede this point. But again I say, are we ready to invade EVERY country that terrorists step foot in? We know Iran and N. Korea are working on WMD, we know Syria harbors and supports terrorists, and we know terrorists are roaming the countryside of Pakistan, Saudi, Jordan, and the majority of the middle east. Is it possible to eradicate them all? Is that how you eliminate terrorism? I think the hate and warmongering of this administration has done more to support terrorism than to prevent it. But keep on keepin on this path, our future looks bright!
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Post by Sirton »

Good now the terrorist are focusing in Iraq. Have you guys done any research in Military history or tactics? Or do you spout the latest of the liberal talking points.

I do agree that invasion of Iraq will increase the number of terrorist in general, that is a given. But you have to think both of long term and short term with long term being the most important.

A moderate form of gov't there will be a major plus for our side. Long term wise. The short term though will show many fanatics hitting in Iraq to disrupt this. Its Al-quedas and many other fanatical organizations prioritys.

You know what I say GOOD. Now this takes the focus off what to next attack in America. because there focus is being shifted to a middle eastern country.

Now hopefully in 5 years we can leave Iraq with a military sustainable in keeping itself afloat, but it could be like Japan and Germany were we still have troops too this day(smartass mode).

The biggest fault we could do atm is leave Iraq. At this time we are at war there instead of here.....and until we have another attack on our soil you dont have really a major arguement to this. And if there is one person you want to deal with terror. Look at the numbers its obvious its Bush on all major polling organizations.
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Post by Lynks »

I'm sure plenty of people here will agree that what the US did to Iraq will be good in the long run, but what some of you need to realise is that the entire fucking world is afraid of what the US might do to them. Noody was able to stop you guys, what happens if all of a sudden, faulty evidence finds Canada plotting to bomb the fuck out of the US? Who's to stop you guys from blowing us up?

I'm 100% positive that if you guys just took the foot off the gas, Saddam was eventually going to screw up and thats when you nail him. The entire world would of supported you.
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Midnyte_Ragebringer
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Lynks wrote:I'm sure plenty of people here will agree that what the US did to Iraq will be good in the long run, but what some of you need to realise is that the entire fucking world is afraid of what the US might do to them. .
That's kind of the point. Now you're getting it. I'm so proud of you, I could almost cry.
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Kelshara
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Post by Kelshara »

The terrorists are not affraid. The rest of the world is.
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Midnyte_Ragebringer
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Kelshara wrote:The terrorists are not affraid. The rest of the world is.
OMG! Here we go again! Another breaking news story. You have the ability to read peoples minds now? You are way too fucking incredible to be true. You really are.
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Kelshara
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Post by Kelshara »

Well since I owned you last time you started this crap.. here is a news break for you:

Terrorists who are willing to die are not affraid of being killed by the US.

Wow. Shocking.
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Midnyte_Ragebringer
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Kelshara wrote:Well since I owned you last time you started this crap.. here is a news break for you:

Terrorists who are willing to die are not affraid of being killed by the US.

Wow. Shocking.
Yes, I feel so owned by your "opinion". OUCH. It hurts so bad. UGHHHH!
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Kelshara
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Post by Kelshara »

Yeah it is just an opinion that a suicide bomber isn't affraid of dying.. :roll:
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