Jerry Falwell...

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » October 15, 2002, 10:12 am

Lets start from the top. Falwell said

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'

I do believe, as a theologian, based upon many Scriptures and particularly Proverbs 14:23, which says 'living by God's principles promotes a nation to greatness, violating those principles brings a nation to shame,'"

and

The conservative Baptist minister tells correspondent Bob Simon he has concluded from reading Muslim and non-Muslim writers that Islam's prophet "was a -- a violent man, a man of war."

"Jesus set the example for love, as did Moses," Falwell says. "I think Muhammad set an opposite example."

Ok what do we have? We have a guy who's lost in his own little world. He's so focused on battling what he thinks are the bad guys that when he speaks in public his views are considered crazy and insulting.

Is he out of touch? Hell yes he's out of touch. He's built a world around himself that insulates him from the real world.

I don't choose to defend the guy.

What I dislike are those people who use Falwell as a punching bag to vent their personal frustrations with christians.

What I dislike are those who hold christians to hypocritical standards, but that subject needs its own thread.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » October 15, 2002, 11:43 am

nazonidus · Post by **nazonidus** » October 15, 2002, 11:55 am

I hesitated to post a reply to this because of all the hate and rancor revolving around the issue; however, I feel I should throw my 2 cents in.

First, let me tell you something about myself so you will know where I am coming from. I am a full time employee for a public library system in Tx and am also a part time pastor with a degree in Theology and a minor in Bible.

I will not try to defend what Jerry Falwell did or did not say. He has been a lightning rod of controversy as has been Pat Robertson (though I am curious about comments about Billy Graham as he has tried to stay out of the political arena for the most part). While I may not have said things exactly the way he did, if people would bother to research Islam (as I had to do for my degree), you would find that much of what he said was true about Muhammed. He had a violent streak. He did have multiple wives, many under the age of 18, etc. If you bother to read the Quran (as I had to read parts), you will find that there are references there to forcing people to convert to Islam by the sword if by no other way.

Now there are many in Islam who relegate the commands of violence to a time past (much like many Christians see the Old Testament as a time past), while a minority use them as an excuse to further an agenda. I and many other Christians have no problem with the peace loving Muslims who are simply trying to seek God and find peace and fulfillment in their lives. We may disagree that their belief system is correct, but we respect them and love them as Christ taught us to. We do have problems with the violent killers of innocent people who will use any means to further their cause whether they be Muslim, Christian or whatever.

Someone made a vague reference to the violence and force that was done in the name of Christianity. I would like to say that most true Christians (Christian by virtue of relationship with Christ rather than simple church affilation), do not, nor ever did condone such tactics. The use of force will never bring true converts to any religion due to the fact that it has to be a decision freely made. Christianity has always been a loving religion, despite what a few zealots have done in its name. If asked if those who took part in the Crusades or the Spanish Inqusition were true Christians, I cannot say. I can say this, that just because a mouse lives in a cookie jar, does not necessarily make him a cookie.

I know that most of you do not hold my beliefs. Some are outright hateful of religion and anything having to do with it. Others see us as a bunch of hypocrites and issues with pedophile priests and affairs of high-profile ministers only reinforces that. I would offer to you that we are all simply people, not unlike yourselves, who are searching (and believe we have found) for a life of fulfillment and happiness. We make mistakes. We outright blow it. Our faith does not make us perfect, but it does provide peace and forgiveness as we strive to model ourselves after Christ. Some of you may call us names or laugh at us. In fact, I fully expect a bunch of flames from this post. That is ok. I just want you to understand a little from the other side.

Naz

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » October 15, 2002, 12:09 pm

There's no real hate here Naz, we're all just a bunch of old friends who playfully spar with each other.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 15, 2002, 12:14 pm

adex you are neglecting the quote:

Jerry Falwell via the Associated Press wrote:NEW YORK (AP) -- The Rev. Jerry Falwell says "I think Muhammad was a terrorist"

http://www.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/TV/10/0 ... index.html
He said this to 60 minutes in an interview for their program, then confirmed he said it at a later time to the AP via phone interview.

You quoted what was the larger context of the quote, but eliminated the inflamatory remark itself. The word "terrorist" is a politically charged word.

but regardless yes, i agree with you Adex, that

1. Jerry Falwell does not represent Christians, Christianity's principles any more than child-molesting priests do.

2. Race riots in India are worse than any comment made by some blowhard.

i think most people actually agree on this thread regarding Falwell.

Nazonidus: i think most people will agree that there is often a difference between the religious ideals espoused by a religion's texts and the manner in which the organized political entities of those religions function within society throughout history. And more to the point, that often some of the best examples of a religion's ideals are the everday people who make up the "flock".

But regardless, the point of this entire conversation is the use of the word "terrorist". It is a word specifically relevant to modern political situations, and it is that statement that is what caused all of this. If he was merely discussing violent imagery in the Koran, that would be one thing. Perhaps he would be treading into water a bit deep for him, but that is not what happened here.

Saying that Muhammed in the Koran had wives under the age of 18 doesnt mean anything. EVERYBODY on the planet had wives under the age of 18 when the Koran was written (~750 A.D). Romeo and Juliet was written 800 years later, and that was about 15 year olds...

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » October 15, 2002, 12:20 pm

Thanks for the correction V. My omission wasn't intentional.

nazonidus · Post by **nazonidus** » October 15, 2002, 12:24 pm

I understand what you are saying. My post was aimed at those who were "breathing fire" and really denigrating Christians.

I do think that it would help to understand why what some call the religious right seem so radical. I could go into it from a belief standpoint, but it would be a post even longer than the one before.

Just wanted to give some people food for thought is all.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 15, 2002, 12:32 pm

so did Jesus speak Greek?

or just the guys who wrote books about him

nazonidus · Post by **nazonidus** » October 15, 2002, 12:36 pm

Greek was the language of commerce at the time, Latin was the language of the provincial Roman govt and Hebrew/Aramaic was the language of the Jews, so he probably spoke all three.

Since there are no written works actually attributed to him, one can't say for certain.

Nneena · Post by **Nneena** » October 15, 2002, 1:20 pm

Jerry Fallwell is a terrorist .

nazonidus · Post by **nazonidus** » October 15, 2002, 1:37 pm

You are entitled to your opinion, but it doesn't carry much weight without something to back it up.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » October 15, 2002, 1:38 pm

you would find that much of what he said was true about Muhammed. He had a violent streak.

And the Christian God dosen't? LOL

If you bother to read the Quran (as I had to read parts), you will find that there are references there to forcing people to convert to Islam by the sword if by no other way.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd swear the Holy Bible has much, much worse examples.

This is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I see a shitload of hypocrisy and double standards incoming! I love to watch religions discuss each others faults. It's like watching Bin Laden box Hitler. I don't give a fuck who wins, you're both wrong, and I take great pleasure in your laughable superior attitudes, justifcations, and excuses.

Carry on please.

nazonidus · Post by **nazonidus** » October 15, 2002, 2:05 pm

If you think that I am going to go on a tirade of condemning muslims or the religion of Islam, you will have to find your jollies elsewhere my friend. My point is completely different than that. I was simply trying to point out that one should put aside their pre-concieved ideas and look to see if the facts that a person gives are true.

Yes, based on my world view, I disagree with the tenets of Islam, but that does not mean I am going to bash them or hate monger them as you seem to do people of faith.

You see, I am willing to intellectually discuss my beliefs, without hatred or rancor or name calling to anyone who is interested. Can you say the same?

If you do not choose to believe in God or any faith system, that is totally your choice. Can you freely accept the fact that there are those who choose to believe in one?

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » October 15, 2002, 2:11 pm

Actually Fair you are wrong. In fact when the Roman soldiers came to arrest Jesus, Peter cut off one of the soldiers ears. Jesus condemned Peter and reattached the ear.

This is the example people should think about...

Now quote me one place where he promoted violence?

This is and never has been an arguement about RELIGION it is a bunch of idiots using Religion as an excuse to rally the masses to further their own ends.

Valgul · Post by **Valgul** » October 15, 2002, 2:30 pm

I agree Hammer. We need to make sure that we are not talking about the religion itself, but about the fanatics (in the lost temple of cazic thule?) of a religion.

Christianity has its fanatics too, but they are counted as fringe groups. What concerns me is that the fanatics in the Moslim world are the ones in power in countries that want to see us killed.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 15, 2002, 2:33 pm

Hammer, look to the old testament where nations were destroyed both by the almighty and by his people

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » October 15, 2002, 2:40 pm

[quote="Hammerstalker PE"]Actually Fair you are wrong. In fact when the Roman soldiers came to arrest Jesus, Peter cut off one of the soldiers ears. Jesus condemned Peter and reattached the ear.

Thquote]

Wait a minute wait a minute..nowhere in the book of Matthew does it mention that Jesus reattached the ear. The rest is correct though.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » October 15, 2002, 2:40 pm

You see, I am willing to intellectually discuss my beliefs, without hatred or rancor or name calling to anyone who is interested. Can you say the same?

Look where you're posting

If you want me to watch my mouth and respect you, you're in the wrong place. Here on the Vault, we all call bullshit when we smell it. As far as you "intellectually discussing your beliefs", I have a couple of trump cards up my sleeve. Spiderman can beat up Batman and Santa Clause would pwn the Easter Bunny.

I am going to bash them or hate monger them as you seem to do people of faith.

Once again, welcome to Flame Vault. I can bash Mother Teresa and hate monger the Olson Twins if I want too. You're in the wrong place and choose to speak out against the wrong topic. Especially if you don't want to hear bad words or have people be demeaned. That's what we do here.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » October 15, 2002, 2:47 pm

Well, before you call Fairweather wrong, go read your old testiment, Hammer. Its full of the Hebrews vs all comers, from the walls of Jericho to Samsom vs the Phillistines, David vs Goliath, etc.

While Islam has had its moments of violence, it has also been, at times, a religion of peace and tolerance. One of their tennets, often (conveniently?) forgotten is that Mohammed taught his followers to "respect people of the book" meaning the Bible. As formerly mentioned, Muslims hold Abraham, et al through to Jesus to be great prophets as well, just not as great as Mohammed, believing the Christians and Jews were on the right path, just not there yet.

In the end, equating someone like Jerry Falwell as a spokesman for all christianity is about equivalent to saying Saddam Hussien is a true spokesman for Islam: neither one of them abides by the true tennets of their espoused faith, instead they use it as a tool to sucker the gullible and accumulate power and wealth.

As for Adex's contention that Falwell doesn't deserve the hate he recieves, well, if Falwell truly followed his supposed faith (and I do have issues with "religious leaders trying to espouse a political agenda: "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's" to quote J.C.), and kept his fat ignorant mouth shut, he wouldn't have to deal with that issue.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » October 15, 2002, 2:50 pm

Now quote me one place where he promoted violence?

"He" as in, Jesus? No, Jesus is portrayed as perfection, hence, there are no accounts of him ever doing anything wrong. However, his dad (you know, god) has killed everything that moves. Plus, he's broken virtually all of the 10 commandments that he assigned. I know, I know... Do as he says, not as he does. It's all blather anyway. Any and all material from the Bible is questionable and debatable on virtually all levels: physics, morals, history, logic, science, mathematics, philisophy, ect.

So really, what's the point?

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » October 15, 2002, 2:59 pm

Truant there is a HUGE difference between the old testament and the New Testament. I will try to break it down.

The old Testament was a time when the people were under what was called the "LAW" and yes it was a brutal time.

The New Testament deals with the changes that occured when Jesus died on the Cross. this eliminated the "Law" and brought about new ideals of Love thy Neighbor, Turn the other Cheek, forgiveness etc etc etc...

The problem is that people the "Fanatics" keep on espousing the Old Testament values as applicable today, Which they are not well at least most of them.

Again this is not a struggle between Christianity and other religions this is Fanatics twisting things to suit their agenda.

Mawafu · Post by **Mawafu** » October 15, 2002, 3:01 pm

Since we're being so freakin nit picky today...

And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.
But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him. -Luke 22:50,51

No, it wasn't in Matthew nor did it say he reattached it specifically but Christ did heal the man.

Also, I am curious now, please point out which of the "virtually all" 10 commandments God has broken.

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » October 15, 2002, 3:04 pm

Thanks Mawafu... I was just dusting off the old Bible to find that quote.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » October 15, 2002, 3:06 pm

Well God did father a son out of wedlock... isn't that, by definition adultery?

nazonidus · Post by **nazonidus** » October 15, 2002, 3:19 pm

....and then come back and all this has gone on.

Ok. Let me address a few things. To the one who says if I don't want flames don't come here, I say...Flame away, though I would prefer to have a discussion based on logical arguments rather than name calling. Use whatever words you wish. I simply choose not to reciprocate.

I agree this is not really about the religions involved, but those on the fringes who would use it as a battering ram.

Now, I would like to expound upon a couple of things. In the first place, yes the Old Testament is a very violent book,per se. Unfortunately, I don't have enough time or room here to go into all the theology behind what happened there, but suffice it to say, it was a different dispensation or way of dealing with man.

Christianity, in general looks at the OT as looking forward to the New Covenant in Christ....who never advocated the violent pressure for conversions that some in Christianity and other religions have used. His message was that of a changed heart. A turning away from former life and self.

What some have done here is engage in a logical error. They proceeded from the specific to the general, rather than the other way around. Let me put it this way. If I get robbed by a person from china, then I have 2 choices. I can look at that person as bad, or I can generalize that since this man was from China and robbed me, that all Chinese are bad. That breaks the fundamental rules of logic.

Some people do that to muslims. Others do it to christians. It is bad in any case.

Now as to God breaking his own commandments, even a cursory reading of the 10 commandments would show that it is logically impossible.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » October 15, 2002, 3:21 pm

Also, I am curious now, please point out which of the "virtually all" 10 commandments God has broken.

Actually, the commandments are not really possible for him to break.(adultry, honor thy mutha and father, ect..) I was thinking more of the 7 deadly sins. Too bad I didn't have a copy of the 10 Commandments on my school wall back in the day so I wouldn't get them confused. Damn that seperation of church and state! Damn it to hell! Anyway, the big number 5 is broken all the time by God and his followers. Thou shalt not kill. A rather important commandment, would you agree?

Now, The big G definately tanks on the 7 deadly sins that apply to him...

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity. Second Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Take The Name Of The Lord, Thy God, In Vain.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation. Hence the First Commandment: I Am The Lord Thy God; Thou Shalt have no other gods Before Me.

Anger: is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath. Ever heard of the Wrath of God? God destroyed anyone and anything that he didn't agree with him.

Good God. Good times.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » October 15, 2002, 3:32 pm

What some have done here is engage in a logical error.

Religion and logic go together like fish and bicycles. On the other side of the spectrum, religion and violence are synonymous with one another, like retards and Kool-Aid. Sure, not so much here in the good ol' USofA, with your house in the 'burbs, 2.5 kids, cell phones, and matching SUV's in the garage. Don't forget the white skin! That helps OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS ya know! However, globally and historically, religion breeds conflict, violence, bloodshed, and murder. I'm sure you have a good enough reason why your god dosen't interfere and drop a little old testement justice on the pagens though. Religions always have an excuse. Like they actually know anything more than me or anyone else.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » October 15, 2002, 3:35 pm

EQ analogy!

God is the writer of the game called Life.

He set down some rules for the "players" to follow.

The GM isn't bound by those rules as a GM. He's abstracted from it.

HOWEVER,

God actually made a character in the game called life, came down and played with us in the form of Jesus and PERFECTLY lived, not violating the big 10.

Fix your perspective and it all slides into place.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 15, 2002, 3:43 pm

fish and bicycles...that was fantastic, thank you!

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » October 15, 2002, 3:43 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Here goes,

Christainity at its core states that there's a God and you are under his authority.

People who reject religion hate this perspective. People at their core want to live their own lives and be under no one's authority.

Hrmmm while there are, I understand, "people who reject religion" most atheists just ignore it and could really care less about it's perspective, except when that perspective leads to a heap of zealots killing other folks. I'm not sure if your intent here was to characterize atheists as "people who reject religion" but most of us don't actually, it exists for us on the same level as any other work of "moralistic" fiction.

As I see it anyones' Jihad is a bad thing...

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » October 15, 2002, 3:51 pm

I was speaking as to why the concept of God is a turn off for many people.

nazonidus · Post by **nazonidus** » October 15, 2002, 4:05 pm

Religion and logic go together like fish and bicycles. On the other side of the spectrum, religion and violence are synonymous with one another, like retards and Kool-Aid. However, globally and historically, religion breeds conflict, violence, bloodshed, and murder. I'm sure you have a good enough reason why your god dosen't interfere and drop a little old testement justice on the pagens though. Religions always have an excuse. Like they actually know anything more than me or anyone else.[/quote]

Hmm, so does money and violence, land and violence, position and violence.....I don't see you rejecting those. Besides, it is what misguided man has done in the name of religion that is so bad. On the other hand, there have been more charities, hospitals, works of compassion, etc that have come out of religious systems over the years than from any other source. While man may be imperfect, it is often his faith in God that will spur him on to helping the needy. How many atheists have gone to leper colonies over the years to help them? Perhaps a few, but that has been a work from the church for centuries before a cure for leprosy was found.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » October 15, 2002, 4:44 pm

Nazonidus, you choose your religion. If you were born and raised in China, you would be Buddist. If you were born and raised in Afganistan, you would be Muslim. Parents, environment, and social norms dictate your religious preference. I do not confront christianity until it infringes upon my personal freedoms, or I see it being used as a tool to control the masses/recruit more sheep. Then I get upset and take whatever action I can. Usually that is voting.

"I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods you will understand why I dismiss yours."
..........Stephen F. Roberts

VeeshanVault

Jerry Falwell...

Jerry Falwell, Christianity and Religion

I understand

Well

Opinion

Intellectual Honesty

Boy, I go to lunch....

Religion and....