Terrorism works

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Hesten
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Post by Hesten »

Avestan wrote:
Hesten wrote:Yeah, bad terrorists, stop defeating your own country and give it all up to the invading armies.

My grandfather killed a german soldier when he was 17, when Denmark was under german control. Guess you could call him a terrorist too, and he would have been if germany hadnt lost the war. But since they lost, it instead make him a freedom fighter who did his duty to his country when most other people wouldnt.

Terrorism like 9/11 where terrorists hit foreign countries are bad, but i can can understand the people who fight an invading army on their own soil.
Now that is really a despicable post.

Killing innocent people to achieve a goal will always be terrorism. If they only went after policemen and military, that would be a very different situation, but the last what. . .half dozen hostages have all been civilians. If you say they are supporting the war effort, where do you draw the line? Truck drivers. . .salesmen who sell to Americans. . .Americans who pay taxes to support the troops. . .we are quickly getting into very dangerous waters here.

Military targets are one thing, civilian targets are another. . .as soon as you explain that away as a legitimate way to wage war, you are really dropping low. . .disgustingly low.

If you look at what i wrote, i dont see me condoning attacks on civilians anywhere. To quote mysef:
Terrorism like 9/11 where terrorists hit foreign countries are bad, but i can can understand the people who fight an invading army on their own soil.
Look at that sencence. Do you see anything about civilians there? I dont. The keyword in that sentence is INVADING ARMY. If Bush for example decide to say that Denmark go WMDs and invade Denmark (and yes, i know it wont happen, since our current government are Bush lapdogs, but its an example), i sure as hell would fight the invaders.
You can of course do that in a number of ways, and it IS unfortunate and despicable that some freedom fighters decide to use boms that will also harm civilians. That i am agains. But i can again only say that if it were Denmark that got invaded, i would use the exact same tactic to hurt the invading force, while avoiding to hurt civilians.
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Post by Kylere »

Hesten wrote:
Kylere wrote:Terrorism is acts carried out by people not representing a nation state but merely representing some purpose which they cannot get the majority to agree with.

Freedom fighters are those who seek to restore their legitimate government.
Well, during WW2 the Germans occupied Denmark, our government and military gave up without a fight and let them do it. They let us keep our government, but as lapdogs for the germans.

Does that mean that the men that fought as freedom fighters/terrorists agains the germans was wrong, since noone had removed our legitimate govermnent?
Depends on how you define legitimate government, when your government fails to protect you.. is it still legitimate?

The Danish leadership choose to rollover and play dead, at that point in the yes of many of the citizens they lost a lot of their claim to legitimacy. But techniically they were in fact in revolt against their lawful government, which is why the Germans were able to scoff at the few laws of war they paid attention to in that case.
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Post by Kylere »

Umm soldiers target soldiers, and aggressors. Terrorists target truck drivers and satellite repair dudes, and water plant experts.

Freedom Fighters do not kill their own people to terrorize them, ala Viet Cong.
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Post by Lynks »

Maybe they don't have the same intelligence the US has, or maybe its the same!
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Post by Cartalas »

Hesten wrote:
Kylere wrote:Terrorism is acts carried out by people not representing a nation state but merely representing some purpose which they cannot get the majority to agree with.

Freedom fighters are those who seek to restore their legitimate government.
Well, during WW2 the Germans occupied Denmark, our government and military gave up without a fight and let them do it. They let us keep our government, but as lapdogs for the germans.

Does that mean that the men that fought as freedom fighters/terrorists agains the germans was wrong, since noone had removed our legitimate govermnent?

No it just means your country was full of pussys :razz:
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Post by Hesten »

Kylere wrote:Umm soldiers target soldiers, and aggressors. Terrorists target truck drivers and satellite repair dudes, and water plant experts.

Freedom Fighters do not kill their own people to terrorize them, ala Viet Cong.
Hehe, you should try to check out the definitions of Terrorist and Freedom Fighters.

Ill even provide the info for you.

As you can see from this, the term Terrorist/freedom fighter are often interchangeable, depending on your points of view. Which are a thing that most people in here fail to see. What you call evil terrorists can (and most likely are) be viewed as freedom fighters by a large number of the population in Iraq.

And if you take a look at the history of terrorists and Freedom fighters, you will see that the US sponsored quite a few terrorists themselves, including the terrorists in Afghanistan.

As you can also see, a lot of persons formerly labelled terrorists by various contries (lets use the 3 taken from the article i posted, (Nelson Mandela, Yasser Arafat, Menachem Begin) are nowadays not viewed as terrorists, and are actually people that have been considered for a nobel peace price.
Freedom fighter
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Freedom fighter is a relativistic local term for those engaged in rebellion against an established government that is held to be oppressive and illegitimate. The terms "freedom" and "rebellion" are often controversial, as often both sides in armed conflict claim to represent the popular cause of "freedom." While outside (perhaps imperial) oppressors almost always claim to be "liberators," freedom fighters also often become oppressors in the eyes of civilians.

Though the literal meaning of the words could include anyone who fights for the cause of freedom, common use is restricted to those who are actively involved in an armed rebellion, rather than those who "fight" for freedom by peaceful means (though they may use the title metaphorically).

History
Historically, we find that people who are self-described "freedom fighters" tend to be called assassins, rebels, or "terrorists" by their foes. During the Cold War, the term freedom fighter was widely used by the United States and other Western Bloc countries to describe rebels in countries controlled by Communist governments or otherwise under the influence of the Soviet Union, including rebels in Hungary, the right-wing Contras in Nicaragua, and the Islamist mujahadeen in Afghanistan.

The Soviet Union used the term in the same way, to describe rebel movements in countries controlled by or under the influence of the United States and other Western Bloc countries, such as Vietnam, Nicaragua, and Colombia. These rebels often used guerrilla tactics. Some were clearly assassins. The asymmetric warfare employed on both sides made many people in the West to assume moral equivalence between the two phenomena. Perhaps the more reasoned approach to evaluating these movements would be to look at their actual goals, doctrines, and practices. It would seem inappropriate to lump together the savage, Maoist Sendero Luminoso of Peru and the socially concerned, if authoritarian, Nicaraguan Sandinistas; the same goes for the Hungarian and Czechoslovakian rebels v.s. the Afghan Mujahadeen.

The term "freedom fighter", while indicating favor of some political group, often does not reflect any actual political position of those fighting. For example, to many people around the world, the leftist Sandinistas were freedom fighters. After their revolution took Nicaragua, the CIA funded a new opposition, the Contras, who were labeled as freedom fighters by the United States government and rebels or terrorists by the Sandinistas and Soviet Union. Of all political labels, "freedom fighter" is perhaps the most blunt term for "friend" - some think that it signals an unwillingness to abandon moral support regardless of methods, an unbreakable alliance between players.

The ambiguity of the term freedom makes the use of the label freedom fighter particularly useful for propaganda purposes. It is relatively simple to show that the "enemy" has done something which violates one of the many possible meanings of the word freedom, which allows the propagandist to appear to take the moral high ground by fighting for the cause of freedom. In addition to this, propagandists commonly use virtue words like freedom, which tend to evoke positive images in the target audience in order to attach those images and feelings to his cause.[/b]

Certain media agencies, notably the BBC, and Reuters aside from attributed quotes, refuse to use the phrase "terrorist" or "freedom fighter", or even more descriptive and neutral terms such as "militant", "guerrilla" or "assassin", to avoid the political repercussions of the use of such words. The BBC did, however refer to the mainly-Catholic Provisional Irish Republican Army as terrorists, while members of mainly Protestant armed groups in Northern Ireland were usually referred to as "paramilitaries" rather than terrorists. Al Qaeda militants are usually referred to as terrorists, especially since September 11, 2001. The actions of Timothy McVeigh were also described as terrorism.

Terrorist
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The Old Testament contains many references to behavior that can be described as terrorism. In the 1st century, Zealots conducted a fierce and unrelenting terror campaign against the Roman occupiers of the eastern Mediterranean. The Zealots enlisted sicarii to strike down rich Jewish collaborators and others who were friendly to the Romans.

In the 11th century, the radical Islamic sect known as the Assassins employed systematic murder for a cause they believed to be righteous. For two centuries, they resisted efforts to suppress their religious beliefs and developed ritualized murder into a fine art taught through generations. Political aims were achieved through the power of intimidation.

During the French Revolution (1789 - 1799), the most severe period of the rule of the Committee of Public Safety (1793 - 1795) was labelled "The Terror" (1793 - 1794) and described Jacobin excesses. Some argue that this period is an example of state-sponsored terrorism. Certainly, it induced fear and outrage not only in the domestic population of France, but also throughout the European aristocracy.

In the early 19th century, Spanish insurgents successfully employed terrorism against Napoleonic domination.

By the mid-19th century, Russian intelligentsia grew impatient with the slow pace of Tsarist reforms, and sought instead to transform peasant discontent into open revolution. Anarchists like Mikhail Bakunin maintained that progress was impossible without destruction. Their objective was nothing less than complete destruction of the state. Anything that contributed to this goal was regarded as moral. With the development of sufficiently powerful, stable, and affordable explosives, the gap closed between the firepower of the state and the means available to dissidents. Organized into secret societies like the People's Will, Russian terrorists launched a campaign of terror against the state that climaxed in 1881 when Tsar Alexander II of Russia was assassinated. Also, a revolutionary Irish-American group called the Fenian Brotherhood planted explosive devices around the city of London in particular and the British mainland in general in the mid 1800's, in protest to the British occupation of Ireland. This is often seen as the first act of 'republican Terrorism'

Today, modern weapons technology has made it possible for a "super-empowered angry man" (Thomas Friedman) to cause a large amount of destruction by himself or with only a few conspirators. It can be, and has been, conducted by small as well as large organizations.

Some believe that individuals or groups resort to terrorism when other avenues for change, including economics, protest, public appeal, and organized warfare, hold no hope of success (also see rioting). Therefore some argue that one approach to reduce terrorism is to ensure that where there is a population feeling oppressed, some avenue of problem resolution is kept open, even if the population in question is in the minority.

Others, for example the American intellectual Noam Chomsky, believe that terrorism is typically sponsored by governments through the organisation, funding or training of death squads and similar paramilitary groups, often under the banner of counter-terrorism. Thus the causes of terrorism include attempts to gain or consolidate power either by instilling fear in the population to be controlled, or by stimulating another group into becoming a hardened foe, thereby setting up a polarizing us-versus-them paradigm (also see nationalism and fascism).

Terrorists often seek to demoralize and paralyze their enemy with fear. This sometimes works, but it can also stiffen the enemy's resolve.

In general, retribution against terrorists can result in escalating tit-for-tat violence. It is often felt that if the consequences of engaging in terrorism are not swift and punitive, the deterrent to other terrorist groups is diminished.

Terrorism relies heavily on surprise. Terrorist attacks can trigger sudden transitions into conflict or war. Frequently, after a terrorist attack, a number of unassociated groups may claim responsibility for the action; this may be considered "free publicity" for the organization's aims or plans. Because of its anonymous and sometimes self-sacrificial nature, it is not uncommon for the reasons behind the terrorist action to remain unknown or murky for a considerable period.

The existing order within countries or internationally depends on compromises and agreements between various groups and interests that were made to resolve past conflicts. Over time, these arrangements become less relevant to the current situation. Some terrorist acts seem calculated to disrupt the existing order and provoke conflicts in the expectation that it will lead to a new order more favorable to their interests.

Some people considered to be terrorists, or supporters of terrorist actions, at some point in their lives have gone on to become dedicated peace activists (Uri Avnery), respected statesmen (Yitzhak Shamir) and even Nobel Peace Prize laureates (Nelson Mandela, Yasser Arafat, Menachem Begin). This illustrates the plasticity of the term as well as increasing politicization of the Nobel Peace Prize.
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich"
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Metanis
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Post by Metanis »

I detect a trend here.

The liberal pussies here refuse to acknowledge the reality of the situation on the ground as it is. A recurring theme here is that since we can't know what every single Iraqi would prefer then we should assume that our approach is wrong.

You guys need to get a grip. It has been reported in various places that the numbers of insurgents may range from 5,000 to 20,000. Let's assume that's wrong and it's 500,000. That is still a minority of the population of Iraq.

You guys also seem to think that the coalition forces are there to occupy the country of Iraq. Where do you come up with this crap? It's a major theme of our election here this year, how best to disengage and withdraw from Iraq. You idiot libs are delusional if you think America is going to maintain an occupation there. We want out at the earliest opportunity. But that doesn't mean we plan on leaving the Iraqi people to the wolves.

By any intelligent or objective standard the insurgents / terrorists cannot be allowed to control the situation in Iraq. Why do you liberals hate the Iraqis so much? Shouldn't they be allowed the option of voting for a government? How can that take place in the chaos which the TERRORISTS are provoking?

If you pussy liberals truly cared about people you would be supporting the USA in restoring a representative democracy to the Iraqi people. It's so painfully obvious that all you truly care about is yourselves.
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Post by Kelshara »

Your logic is astounding Metanis. Since only 5-20 000 are actually physically fighting the coalition nobody else support them or disagree with the occupation!

And I love how you always play the "hate the Iraqis" card. It makes me laugh. A lot.

Now please throw out some more names towards us "pussy liberals", I am sure it is giving you lots of physical pleasure.. about the same as stroking your guns most likely.
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Post by *~*stragi*~* »

Sorry Stan, but if they are delivering supplies to an occupying army, they aren't innocent. Lets all just agree to hope this ends quickly when Bushypoo is kicked to the curb :>
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Post by Metanis »

Kelshara wrote:Your logic is astounding Metanis. Since only 5-20 000 are actually physically fighting the coalition nobody else support them or disagree with the occupation!

And I love how you always play the "hate the Iraqis" card. It makes me laugh. A lot.

Now please throw out some more names towards us "pussy liberals", I am sure it is giving you lots of physical pleasure.. about the same as stroking your guns most likely.
Since this is your second allusion to "guns" with a sexual overtone I'm sensing you have some issue there.

Regards my logic... you merely prove my contention you folks want to argue philosophy and not reality. The objective reality on the ground is the insurgents make up a minority. The objective reality on the ground is the sooner the Iraqis can form a stable goverment the sooner they can vote themselves for whatever form of government they desire.

Regards hating the Iraqi people. Perhaps you don't hate them, but you and the rest of your lib friends are not helping them at all by ignoring reality.

Examine your own logic, you've got some wires crossed.
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Post by Sylvus »

Metanis wrote:You guys need to get a grip. It has been reported in various places that the numbers of insurgents may range from 5,000 to 20,000. Let's assume that's wrong and it's 500,000. That is still a minority of the population of Iraq.
Try looking at that statement from the perspective that between 5,000 and 20,000 of the people are pissed off enough to be willing to rise up against the most powerful nation in the world. I don't think it's only 5,000 to 20,000 people (or even only 500,000 people) that are unhappy with our presence over there.

Myself, and a good number of other people in our country are pretty upset with President Bush and you don't really see any of us taking up arms and becoming insurgents, yet polls would indicate that around half the country is not happy with him (final tallies will be posted in November). The point is that I don't think it is reasonable to assume that just because only a fraction of the people are willing to kill or die because we've made them unhappy doesn't mean that they are the only ones who are unhappy.

To suggest that anyone besides yourself can't acknowledge the reality of the situation is laughable. The insurgents are not terrorists, they are people who feel they were unjustly invaded and that we have overstayed any welcome (probably none) that we may have had and they will pay the ultimate price to get us out of there. I abhor the idea of kiling civillian contracters and truck drivers and all of those people not in uniform, but the reality of the situation is that anyone over there with the military is probably viewed as an auxiliary member of the military and a valid target in their eyes.
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Post by Kelshara »

My wires are fine, thanks. And reality? Reality is that there are several large different religious/ethnic groups inside the Iraqi borders, and not all of them do or will support you or your puppet government. Among these are large groups who supported Saddam. Among these are large groups who want nothing to do with any of the others but want they own state (Hi Kurds).

You fool yourself if you think only 5,000 people there hate the US. You also fool yourself if you think the country will reach a level of stable democracy anytime soon.

That said, I have never argued for pulling out the troops now. I've said that since you created the mess you need to clean it up. And that will take a LONG time. However, I also have said that I disagree with going in there in the first place.
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Post by Metanis »

Sylvus wrote:Myself, and a good number of other people in our country are pretty upset with President Bush and you don't really see any of us taking up arms and becoming insurgents, yet polls would indicate that around half the country is not happy with him (final tallies will be posted in November). The point is that I don't think it is reasonable to assume that just because only a fraction of the people are willing to kill or die because we've made them unhappy doesn't mean that they are the only ones who are unhappy.

To suggest that anyone besides yourself can't acknowledge the reality of the situation is laughable. The insurgents are not terrorists, they are people who feel they were unjustly invaded and that we have overstayed any welcome (probably none) that we may have had and they will pay the ultimate price to get us out of there. I abhor the idea of kiling civillian contracters and truck drivers and all of those people not in uniform, but the reality of the situation is that anyone over there with the military is probably viewed as an auxiliary member of the military and a valid target in their eyes.
You don't see the difference that we will be allowed to vote in November? The terrorists in Iraq are doing everything they can to DENY the Iraqi people their own opportunity to VOTE!

And it's already been stated that many of the insurgents are NOT Iraqi nationals.
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Post by Zaelath »

Avestan wrote:Now that is really a despicable post.

Killing innocent people to achieve a goal will always be terrorism. If they only went after policemen and military, that would be a very different situation, but the last what. . .half dozen hostages have all been civilians. If you say they are supporting the war effort, where do you draw the line? Truck drivers. . .salesmen who sell to Americans. . .Americans who pay taxes to support the troops. . .we are quickly getting into very dangerous waters here.

Military targets are one thing, civilian targets are another. . .as soon as you explain that away as a legitimate way to wage war, you are really dropping low. . .disgustingly low.
So, between yourself and Adex you'd have to agree that bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima was a terrorist act? ie, civilian targets, low cost.
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Post by miir »

And it's already been stated that many of the insurgents are NOT Iraqi nationals.
Stated by whom?
What percentage of insurgents are non-Iraqi?



And another thing, calling people who disagree with you 'pussy liberals' has absolutely no effect on them. People's political beliefs are part of who they are and trying to turn their political affiliation into a derogatory label really only shows your childish immaturity.


So, between yourself and Adex you'd have to agree that bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima was a terrorist act? ie, civilian targets, low cost.
Haha, ouch.
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Post by masteen »

That's a gross oversimplification, and you know it, Miir. Those 2 cities were picked for many more reasons than that. Nuking the emperor would have been counterproductive, as then there would have been no central authority to surrender.
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Post by miir »

That's a gross oversimplification, and you know it, Miir
Yes, it is.
As are many of the many of the statements in this thread.
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Post by Metanis »

miir wrote:
And it's already been stated that many of the insurgents are NOT Iraqi nationals.
Stated by whom?
What percentage of insurgents are non-Iraqi?
I stand corrected...

http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdee ... 142383.htm
By and large, American military officials said, the rebels are a homegrown mix of Islamic extremists, anti-occupation nationalists and members of Saddam Hussein's former regime. Hard-core foreign extremists such as those loyal to suspected Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al Zarqawi number only in the hundreds, according to military reports.
miir wrote: And another thing, calling people who disagree with you 'pussy liberals' has absolutely no effect on them. People's political beliefs are part of who they are and trying to turn their political affiliation into a derogatory label really only shows your childish immaturity.
I partially agree with you here. Labels are bad. I'm no better than anyone else when I resort to using labels. The funny thing is... you know exactly who I'm talking about when I use that label. You identified with it. So it has its benefits at times.

I have to strongly disagree with "People's political beliefs are part of who they are...". Peoples beliefs are learned. You and your friends choose to be ignorant followers of fairy tales. You get no pass from me.
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Post by miir »

partially agree with you here. Labels are bad. I'm no better than anyone else when I resort to using labels.
Infact, you are much worse than most.
How often do you see 'pussy liberals' use derogatory terms when refering to non liberals?

The funny thing is... you know exactly who I'm talking about when I use that label. You identified with it. So it has its benefits at times.
Yeah, because 'people like you' typically need to turn every little thing into a black and white issue.

Would I be wrong in assuming that open minded liberals are more apt to see the various shades of grey that surround many of the political issues we discuss here?

I have to strongly disagree with "People's political beliefs are part of who they are...". Peoples beliefs are learned. You and your friends choose to be ignorant followers of fairy tales. You get no pass from me.
Oh, the irony.
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Post by kyoukan »

Metanis wrote:Regards my logic... you merely prove my contention you folks want to argue philosophy and not reality.
the reality is you illegally invaded another country against the wishes of the international community and against the boundaries of international law. you are now occupying that country with a massive military force in order to install a phony government sensitive to your political and financial interests. as long as you continue to do this, your soldiers and the mercenaries contracted to supply your soldiers are going to die to people who are going to resist this occupation. is that enough reality for you, shithead?
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

Zaelath wrote:
Avestan wrote:Now that is really a despicable post.

Killing innocent people to achieve a goal will always be terrorism. If they only went after policemen and military, that would be a very different situation, but the last what. . .half dozen hostages have all been civilians. If you say they are supporting the war effort, where do you draw the line? Truck drivers. . .salesmen who sell to Americans. . .Americans who pay taxes to support the troops. . .we are quickly getting into very dangerous waters here.

Military targets are one thing, civilian targets are another. . .as soon as you explain that away as a legitimate way to wage war, you are really dropping low. . .disgustingly low.
So, between yourself and Adex you'd have to agree that bombing Nagasaki and Hiroshima was a terrorist act? ie, civilian targets, low cost.


Well, given the defintion of terrorism I defined there were fear elements in play with those atomic bombings.

The US was tired and was dreading the idea of a full invasion of Japan. Thousands and thousands of lives would be lost by invading the Japanese mainland. We only had 2 bombs at that time. Negotiations were making progress but Japan refused on near relgious bounds to absolute surrender terms. Truman and the gang decided to drop those bombs. I'm sure the primary hope of such an act was the scare the hell out of the Japanese into surrendering thus preventing the even larger loss of life by massive invasion.

There are strong elements of terror in that act. I belive it was the correct choice to bomb however. Bombing those cities, prevented the widescale devastation of all the other cities in Japan by the real meatgrinder of invasion.

I'd say that the atomic decision is different from terrorists in Iraq because the impact of the terrorists is highly weighted towards mental impact rather than raw military power.

If faced with raw military power you have even less options available to nullify it.
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Post by Lynks »

I want to know what exactly is a "liberal pussy"? What makes a person one? Serious question.
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Post by Lynks »

Adex_Xeda wrote:Well, given the defintion of terrorism I defined there were fear elements in play with those atomic bombings.

The US was tired and was dreading the idea of a full invasion of Japan. Thousands and thousands of lives would be lost by invading the Japanese mainland. We only had 2 bombs at that time. Negotiations were making progress but Japan refused on near relgious bounds to absolute surrender terms. Truman and the gang decided to drop those bombs. I'm sure the primary hope of such an act was the scare the hell out of the Japanese into surrendering thus preventing the even larger loss of life by massive invasion.

There are strong elements of terror in that act. I belive it was the correct choice to bomb however. Bombing those cities, prevented the widescale devastation of all the other cities in Japan by the real meatgrinder of invasion.

I'd say that the atomic decision is different from terrorists in Iraq because the impact of the terrorists is highly weighted towards mental impact rather than raw military power.

If faced with raw military power you have even less options available to nullify it.
I'm seeing a trend here. Any attack done to the US is a cowardly act of terrorism. Any attack done by the US is for the good of other countries.

Give me a fucking break.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

That's not what I said Lynks.

You're bringing in your own baggage and tacking it on top of my words.

Why not just speak for yourself?
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Post by Zaelath »

So the more people you kill the more legitimate it is... hrmm, are you sure that's something you want to encourage?
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Post by Cartalas »

Lynks wrote:
Adex_Xeda wrote:Well, given the defintion of terrorism I defined there were fear elements in play with those atomic bombings.

The US was tired and was dreading the idea of a full invasion of Japan. Thousands and thousands of lives would be lost by invading the Japanese mainland. We only had 2 bombs at that time. Negotiations were making progress but Japan refused on near relgious bounds to absolute surrender terms. Truman and the gang decided to drop those bombs. I'm sure the primary hope of such an act was the scare the hell out of the Japanese into surrendering thus preventing the even larger loss of life by massive invasion.

There are strong elements of terror in that act. I belive it was the correct choice to bomb however. Bombing those cities, prevented the widescale devastation of all the other cities in Japan by the real meatgrinder of invasion.

I'd say that the atomic decision is different from terrorists in Iraq because the impact of the terrorists is highly weighted towards mental impact rather than raw military power.

If faced with raw military power you have even less options available to nullify it.
I'm seeing a trend here. Any attack done to the US is a cowardly act of terrorism. Any attack done by the US is for the good of other countries.

Give me a fucking break.

No Im seeing a trend here. Any attack done by the U.S is a cowardly act of terrorism. Any attack done to the U.S is a act of protecting themselves.



No give me a fucking break.
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Post by Lynks »

Adex_Xeda wrote:That's not what I said Lynks.

You're bringing in your own baggage and tacking it on top of my words.

Why not just speak for yourself?
I have no "baggage' and I am speaking for myself.
Cartalas wrote:No Im seeing a trend here. Any attack done by the U.S is a cowardly act of terrorism. Any attack done to the U.S is a act of protecting themselves.

No give me a fucking break.
I always thought that 9/11 was terrorism. But I think these attacks on trucks and other small targets are part of the war that is going on right now.

And Happy Birthday Cart! Its not everyday a man turns 13. One step closer to start repeating what other people say just to annoy them.

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Post by Crav »

Adex_Xeda wrote: Well, given the defintion of terrorism I defined there were fear elements in play with those atomic bombings.

The US was tired and was dreading the idea of a full invasion of Japan. Thousands and thousands of lives would be lost by invading the Japanese mainland. We only had 2 bombs at that time. Negotiations were making progress but Japan refused on near relgious bounds to absolute surrender terms. Truman and the gang decided to drop those bombs. I'm sure the primary hope of such an act was the scare the hell out of the Japanese into surrendering thus preventing the even larger loss of life by massive invasion.

There are strong elements of terror in that act. I belive it was the correct choice to bomb however. Bombing those cities, prevented the widescale devastation of all the other cities in Japan by the real meatgrinder of invasion.

I'd say that the atomic decision is different from terrorists in Iraq because the impact of the terrorists is highly weighted towards mental impact rather than raw military power.

If faced with raw military power you have even less options available to nullify it.
Is it not the insurgent's aim to make us remove our military presence from Iraq and in effect surrender? How is killing one non-combatant at a time any different from eradicating hundreds of thousands for the same goal? Can you honestly look into yourself and say that you believe that one is righteous, while the other is heinous.
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Post by Metanis »

Lynks wrote:I want to know what exactly is a "liberal pussy"? What makes a person one? Serious question.
I'll quote someone we all know and love here on VV...
Liberals always claim to know exactly what to do as soon as it's too late. After Muslims attack with airplanes, they want to investigate flight schools. After Muslims attack with shoe-bombs, they want to investigate shoes. After a Muslim introduces E. coli into New York's water supply, liberals will be enraged that Muslim immigrants taking pictures of New York water treatment plants weren't investigated more aggressively -- as soon as they are done blaming Bush for not stopping the attack amid their caterwauling about the detention of Muslim immigrants. Liberals are the only known species whose powers of reasoning are not improved by the benefit of hindsight. Not only are they always fighting the last war, in most cases they're surrendering.
Read a few of these columns and I guarantee that you too will be able to identify a liberal pussy!
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Post by Wulfran »

You guys need to get a grip. It has been reported in various places that the numbers of insurgents may range from 5,000 to 20,000. Let's assume that's wrong and it's 500,000. That is still a minority of the population of Iraq.
Hmmm. And how many thousand troops does the Coalition have in Iraq? Sheesh for all the tech advantages, they still can't stomp out this "small number" of "unsupported" insurgents in the 15 months since Bush said the war was over :roll: . Wonder why this is ? Bad leadership with no real plan or grasp of tactics, perhaps?
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Post by Cartalas »

Wulfran wrote:
You guys need to get a grip. It has been reported in various places that the numbers of insurgents may range from 5,000 to 20,000. Let's assume that's wrong and it's 500,000. That is still a minority of the population of Iraq.
Hmmm. And how many thousand troops does the Coalition have in Iraq? Sheesh for all the tech advantages, they still can't stomp out this "small number" of "unsupported" insurgents in the 15 months since Bush said the war was over :roll: . Wonder why this is ? Bad leadership with no real plan or grasp of tactics, perhaps?

Maybe its because we care about innocent human lives, Our military does not hold up in churches and homes with children.
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Post by miir »

FYI: The links in Metanis' posts are NWS
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Post by Cartalas »

Lynks wrote:
Adex_Xeda wrote:That's not what I said Lynks.

You're bringing in your own baggage and tacking it on top of my words.

Why not just speak for yourself?
I have no "baggage' and I am speaking for myself.
Cartalas wrote:No Im seeing a trend here. Any attack done by the U.S is a cowardly act of terrorism. Any attack done to the U.S is a act of protecting themselves.

No give me a fucking break.
I always thought that 9/11 was terrorism. But I think these attacks on trucks and other small targets are part of the war that is going on right now.

And Happy Birthday Cart! Its not everyday a man turns 13. One step closer to start repeating what other people say just to annoy them.

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Post by Kelshara »

Maybe its because we care about innocent human lives, Our military does not hold up in churches and homes with children.
Yeah you just drop a bomb on civilians instead.
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Post by masteen »

Kelshara wrote:
Maybe its because we care about innocent human lives, Our military does not hold up in churches and homes with children.
Yeah you just drop a bomb on civilians instead.
You really missed that one, slugger.
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Post by Cartalas »

Kelshara wrote:
Maybe its because we care about innocent human lives, Our military does not hold up in churches and homes with children.
Yeah you just drop a bomb on civilians instead.
Yeah we dont spend days warning them before hand, Yes a errant bomb might fall in a residental area but I dont thing the U.S trys to kill civillans.
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Post by Lynks »

Bleh, I don't have any interests in reading far leftwing articles, I really don't want to read any far rightwing ones either.
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Post by Kelshara »

Personally, I think we should give all the tough-talking conservatives a parachtue and drop them over Iraq and see if they keep the same bitching up then. I personally highly doubt it.

And please remember to pack Ann Coulter's backpack correctly! *coughs*
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

Crav wrote:Is it not the insurgent's aim to make us remove our military presence from Iraq and in effect surrender? How is killing one non-combatant at a time any different from eradicating hundreds of thousands for the same goal? Can you honestly look into yourself and say that you believe that one is righteous, while the other is heinous.

I don't apply the word righteous to war.

The main objection to the atomic bomb dropping was the amount of people it killed innocent or miltary.

I hold that a full invasion of Japan (which the bombs prevents) would end up killing more people than those who died in the bombing.

It was a gut wrenching decision that saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

Was there terror generated from dropping those bombs? Yes there was. The fear of another bomb caused Japan to surrender unconditionaly, saving many people from death.




America wants to get a representative government into Iraq and leave. If you're fighting to oppose this effort. If you abducting repairmen and truck drivers, putting them on tape to horrify their families and then sawing their heads off, then yes I define that as terrorism. It is killing a single person in a medival fashion to maximize the fear effect of the act.
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Post by Kelshara »

Question for you Adex: Do you think the bomb was dropped because it would save US lives.. or because it would save Japanese civilian lives? It is quite possible that it could have saved civilian lives although I doubt that ever was taken into consideration. I think the decission was made to save US lives.

Granted, I haven't read much about it so I might very well be wrong and will be the first one to admit it.
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Post by masteen »

The bombs were dropped to ensure the capitulation of Japan. At the point when Truman decided to nuke, the Japanese still had the will to continue fighting, no matter the consequences. Also, the European allies were in no position to assist us in the Pacific, so the burden was squarely on our shoulders.

We gave them a new set of consequences to consider.
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Post by Kargyle »

I have several friends who are huge history buffs, and they all agree that at the point that the US dropped the bombs it was a foregone conclusion that Japan was defeated. We could have successfully invaded without dropping the bombs. However, it was decide that the loss of US life spent invading and securing Japan was too high, and dropping the bombs would have the same result with a lower loss of life overall, for both Japan and America, but mostly for America.
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Post by Crav »

Adex_Xeda wrote: I don't apply the word righteous to war.

The main objection to the atomic bomb dropping was the amount of people it killed innocent or miltary.
You are correct in that there is nothing righteous in war. Yet everyday I see people on this board and in the population at large attempt to justify and in a way make righteous the killing of innocent civilian, all because it was not intentional and in the name of our goals.
Adex_Xeda wrote: I hold that a full invasion of Japan (which the bombs prevents) would end up killing more people than those who died in the bombing.

It was a gut wrenching decision that saved hundreds of thousands of lives.

Was there terror generated from dropping those bombs? Yes there was. The fear of another bomb caused Japan to surrender unconditionaly, saving many people from death.
This is of course from our perspective. I'll be honest, I am glad we dropped the bomb and it's purely for selfish reasons. My grandfather fought in the Pacific during WWII and more than likely would have been part of the invasion force on Japan. So the odds are pretty good I might not be alive today if the bomb hadn't been dropped. Does this mean that I am going to ignore that fact that it was a heinous act? No of course not, was it a necessary act? That of course can be debated, but I will say that people will always do what is right for them and that is the mindset that you have understand the distinction, or lack there of, between terrorist and insurgents.
Adex_Xeda wrote: America wants to get a representative government into Iraq and leave. If you're fighting to oppose this effort. If you abducting repairmen and truck drivers, putting them on tape to horrify their families and then sawing their heads off, then yes I define that as terrorism. It is killing a single person in a medival fashion to maximize the fear effect of the act.
Lets be honest, we are trying to set up a stable government that will be friendly to us, whatever shape that ultimately takes. If the deaths of civilians due to our air campaign is acceptable then why is the death of civilians due to the insurgent's campaign against our supply lines not? Is it because of intention? Well I'm pretty sure that a dead person doesn't care what you intended, they're still dead. Dead is dead whether you intended it to happen or not. Families are going to be devastated regardless of intention, friends are no longer going to be there regardless of intention, and people are going to die regardless of intention.
masteen wrote: We gave them a new set of consequences to consider.
Funny, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the insurgents are thinking.
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Post by Kylere »

Wikipedia cannot be used as a valid reference on anything that is affected by point of view. It is a debate not a reference site on issues that can be debated.

The difference comes down to fighting other soldiers/agressors or murdering civilians, no other yard stick is applicable.
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Post by Forthe »

Kylere wrote:Wikipedia cannot be used as a valid reference on anything that is affected by point of view. It is a debate not a reference site on issues that can be debated.

The difference comes down to fighting other soldiers/agressors or murdering civilians, no other yard stick is applicable.
I agree with that statement for professional\state armies.

However, consider you are resisting a occupation. How do you deal with americans\canadians\<insert your nationality here> that work for or aid the occupiers. I think most of us would consider those people traitors deserving no better than our invaders.

If you are fighting the enemy on your front lawn all rules go out the window.
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Post by Arilain »

The Freedom fighters in Iraq are generally made up of Iraqis.

The Terrorists in Iraq are made up of foriegn fighters.

It is clear that there are two factions here. If you followed the reports about the Turkish truck drivers that were rescued in the past two weeks ; you will find that local Iraqi irregular fighters rescued them from the AQ back group. Not to metion that many Iraqis now resent the foriegners both American and Islamic exteremists and wish they were out.

Iraq was never a black and white senario and shame on you all who thought that. As a veteran of the gulf war I knew there was trouble when our troops found discarded uniforms, which could mean one of two things.

1.) The enemy gave up and went home.

2.) they put plan 'B' into motion went meant guerilla war.

I respect those that are Iraqi fighting for their ideal. I also know that they will be defeated. However that foriegner from AQ are resented now as they kill Iraqis as well as American helpers and troops.

One thing I would like to ask you guys is this....If you were a terrorist with limited funding would you travel to the US or fight the US closer to home? I honestly believe that if AQ had not shown it's willingness to help Saddam that we would be out of there or close to it by now. With AQ right there to fight against it will ensure that our troops are there for awhile.

For the past 30 years we have endured terrorist attacks against our interests and citizens both home and in other places around the world. We have dealt with it as a police action and scoffed at them "declaring war" against us. Now that we are taking the fight to them and realising that a reactive approach doesn't work I am happy. To be proactive in a war is most likely the best thing ; it's dirty, it's cruel, and ultimately useing such an approach will save more lives than being on the defensive.

The worst thing we can do is give into fear and propaganda. if the truck drivers from other nations back out there are other Motor Transport people to fill in the gap. I personally would like to see all of this done by the US military which has the capability, and means to defend itself in convoys. The only difference you see in a civilain truck and military truck over there are the weapons. Civilian trucks have none while military ones do. The only reason I suspect that we are not using our own trucks is because of the cutbacks that support personel and units in the military suffered in the 90's. when I left the Corps in 94 my unit only had 40% of our trucks on the lot and half of them were not drivable due to lack of parts. The other 60% were in dry storage (which meant 6 months to get them back into shape if possible.)

Ok /rant off....Flame on!
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Post by Crav »

Arilain wrote:
One thing I would like to ask you guys is this....If you were a terrorist with limited funding would you travel to the US or fight the US closer to home? I honestly believe that if AQ had not shown it's willingness to help Saddam that we would be out of there or close to it by now. With AQ right there to fight against it will ensure that our troops are there for awhile.
I think saying that AQ is helping Saddam is a bit of a misnomer and just an attempt to lend more credibility towards the invasion and occupation of Iraq. AQ is in Iraq for its own reasons and with its own agenda, none of it has to do with Saddam. They are there because they see an opportunity to help the Shiites attempt to setup a theocracy and to hurt U.S. interests in the Middle East. We needed a new base of operations from which we could exert our influence on the Middle East since in Saudi Arabia the succession of King Fahd is looming. I think the Shiites militias are causing our troops to be there. Fighting small groups of AQ does not require 150,000 units.
Arilain wrote:
For the past 30 years we have endured terrorist attacks against our interests and citizens both home and in other places around the world. We have dealt with it as a police action and scoffed at them "declaring war" against us. Now that we are taking the fight to them and realising that a reactive approach doesn't work I am happy. To be proactive in a war is most likely the best thing ; it's dirty, it's cruel, and ultimately useing such an approach will save more lives than being on the defensive.
You know what, we started to do a very good job of that in Afghanistan, and then we got a bit distracted. AQ was not in Iraq, we did not go in there to fight terrorism. We needed a new base of operations and we didn't have a good enough pretext for any of the other countries. Quite obviously the current administration was not going to be able to use diplomacy to convince any of the surrounding nations to allow us to use their land to project force into the region. So Iraq was the logical choice.
Arilain wrote:
The worst thing we can do is give into fear and propaganda. if the truck drivers from other nations back out there are other Motor Transport people to fill in the gap. I personally would like to see all of this done by the US military which has the capability, and means to defend itself in convoys. The only difference you see in a civilain truck and military truck over there are the weapons. Civilian trucks have none while military ones do. The only reason I suspect that we are not using our own trucks is because of the cutbacks that support personel and units in the military suffered in the 90's. when I left the Corps in 94 my unit only had 40% of our trucks on the lot and half of them were not drivable due to lack of parts. The other 60% were in dry storage (which meant 6 months to get them back into shape if possible.)

Ok /rant off....Flame on!
See but if we use our military to provide its own logistics then how are private companies going to be able to contract out the work for pennies on the dollar for what we are giving them?
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

Crav wrote: AQ is in Iraq for its own reasons and with its own agenda, none of it has to do with Saddam. They are there because they see an opportunity to help the Shiites attempt to setup a theocracy and to hurt U.S. interests in the Middle East.

AQ is based upon an extreme version of the Wahabi flavor of Sunni Islam. That bunch doesn't particularly like other Sunnis and especially they dont' like Shiites.

They see the US and other western countries presense in the middle east as an offense. They are in Iraq because they want the middle east free of any outside influeince (including the western oil industry). Call it a Jihad if you want, purging the homeland.

Once their homelands are secure, then they'll turn their attentions towards establishing their flavor of Islam onto the people there.

From there they seek to spread their theocracy to any other place they can. (Such as Malyasia and the Philippines.)

Or so I've read.....
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Post by Crav »

Adex_Xeda wrote: AQ is based upon an extreme version of the Wahabi flavor of Sunni Islam. That bunch doesn't particularly like other Sunnis and especially they dont' like Shiites.

They see the US and other western countries presense in the middle east as an offense. They are in Iraq because they want the middle east free of any outside influeince (including the western oil industry). Call it a Jihad if you want, purging the homeland.
While they may not like Shiites I do believe that they would rather see an Islamic, whether it is Sunni or Shiite, theocracy then another form of government in Iraq. After all aside from Saudi Arabia and Turkey, which support the U.S. we do not see a lot of terrorist attacks on Islamic lands. I don't particularly like some liberals and I especially do not like conservatives, but if the U.S. was invaded I sure as hell would put aside my dislike. After all what's that old saying, "The enemy of my enemy...”

As an aside I do apologize for my ignorance as to the religious makeup of AQ, I knew they were based on Wahabism, I did not know that it was an offshoot of Sunni Islam. Thank you for enlightening me on that particular subject.
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Post by Kylere »

Forthe wrote:
Kylere wrote:Wikipedia cannot be used as a valid reference on anything that is affected by point of view. It is a debate not a reference site on issues that can be debated.

The difference comes down to fighting other soldiers/agressors or murdering civilians, no other yard stick is applicable.
I agree with that statement for professional\state armies.

However, consider you are resisting a occupation. How do you deal with americans\canadians\<insert your nationality here> that work for or aid the occupiers. I think most of us would consider those people traitors deserving no better than our invaders.

If you are fighting the enemy on your front lawn all rules go out the window.
Yeah but you do not go after specifically women and children, detonate bombs in the middle of markets, or kill kids as warnings to their fathers. You engage the enemy forces, you boycott, harrass, annoy or even specifically target the traitors.

Soldiers do not suicide bomb discotheques, the do not suicide bomb buses, neither do freedom fighters. Terrorists do, comparing them dishonors anyone who has ever given their life for a good cause.
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