The right to vote in the USA

Mak · Post by **Mak** » July 30, 2004, 2:46 am

I am somewhat shocked that people are giving serious consideration to the idea that someone in this country shouldn't be allowed to vote without passing a test of some kind. Fuck, that's just... fuck. So long as you're a citizen and of age you should get to vote for whoever you want, even if it is for a carton of smokes. What's next- a fucking poll tax?

Just because you consume oxygen on the same planet as me and you've managed to stay alive 18 years... why in hell should you be allowed to vote?

Because it says so in the Constitution, that's why.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 30, 2004, 9:59 am

Can have sex at 16 back home.. 15 for females I *think* but would have to look into it to be sure. 18 for military service (which is mandatory but can often be moved back due to school etc). 18 for driving cars, 16 for tractors and mopeds.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » July 30, 2004, 10:53 am

IIRC, and I'm a little hazy...there was a test required to vote, and it was used in the south to keep blacks from voting, since they were denied education and were unable to read or write.

Enacting a test such as this is only the first step to controlling the vote. The second you don't allow someone representation for themselves, is the second you are no longer a democracy.

Post by **Sylvus** » July 30, 2004, 12:04 pm

Chidoro wrote:Since this decision making ability isn't necessary in order to pick up a gun for the military, they aren't equal, nor should they be considered as such.

/boggle

In my opinion, pointing a gun at someone and deciding if they are going to live or die and the permanent effects that making that choice will have on a person takes quite a bit more maturity than deciding whether or not it's Miller time. If anything the age for drinking should be lower than it is for joining the military.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 30, 2004, 12:22 pm

Actually I like the idea of 21 across the board. Draft, Drinking, Driving, Voting, Sex. I say this now naturally because I am older than that. If I were younger I would be pissed if this was the way it was.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » July 30, 2004, 4:23 pm

21 is way too old to allow consentual sex!!

Think of all the 18 year olds who wouldnt get to lauch their porn career, Bubba!!

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » July 30, 2004, 5:25 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote:Actually I like the idea of 21 across the board. Draft, Drinking, Driving, Voting, Sex. I say this now naturally because I am older than that. If I were younger I would be pissed if this was the way it was.

What are you smoking???! You have gone mad, I tell you, mad!!!

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » July 30, 2004, 5:48 pm

Video is forever. Like I said, I am older now so I can drink, drive, have sex, serve in the miltary, and vote, so I don't care if kids under 21 can't. You know they still will. Seeing as how I am not allow to play with teenage girls anymore (damn wife and her rules) I don't think anyone else should either. There is plenty of video out there however.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 30, 2004, 6:03 pm

i havent read this in a couple days.

any progress on removing the vote for negroes yet?

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » July 30, 2004, 6:05 pm

Voronwë wrote:i havent read this in a couple days.

any progress on removing the vote for negroes yet?

No, but hippies, illiterate people, and non-taxpayers are out for sure! Tune back in next week.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » July 30, 2004, 8:15 pm

Voronwë wrote:
i havent read this in a couple days.

any progress on removing the vote for negroes yet?

Nope, not yet, but dont worry, Midnyte havent posted anywhere on page 2 in this thread, so should be possible yet.

And in denmark, we got the following legal ages:
Sex: 15
Being photographed/filmed in "hard" pornography: 18
Driving: 18 (and need to get a drivers licence, cost at the bare minimum 1000$ to get, and you can not train in a car while someone with a drivers licence is in it, like you can in the US, only driving school teachers are allowed to train you).
Drinking: 15
Military service: 18. Mandatory for all males to take a test to see if youre fitted to get in, then you draw a number and pray you get a high one so you get out of it (thats what i did). Females are not drafted, but can volunteer. Can be pushed till your 25, if youre under education.
Guns: 18 + getting a permit (which are NOT something just given out, like in the US, if you even need one there).
Voting: 18

And im perfectly satisfied with these numbers. As i see it, learning to drink early = learning to drink responsible early. Imo, theres a LOT less chance for a kid thats been drinking for 3 years before he get a drivers licence to drink and drive and end up killing someone, than for a kid that have been able to drive for 5 (or is it 6) years, who THEN have to start partying and getting drunk.
And like so many others here say, having to go in the military and might end up killing people (or get killed) are something that should happen AFTER you grow up and get all your other rights. Being forced to kill people before you can go buy a beer is BAD as i see it.

Farrel · Post by **Farrel** » July 30, 2004, 8:26 pm

Hesten wrote: Driving: 18 (and need to get a drivers licence, cost at the bare minimum 1000$ to get...

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 30, 2004, 8:51 pm

Hesten wrote:Nope, not yet, but dont worry, Midnyte havent posted anywhere on page 2 in this thread, so should be possible yet.

Yeah. Keep on making me out to be a racist. It working as effectively as Michael Moore lies are working on the mindless masses of America. Oooops. That's pretty effective then. Oh well. Believe your lies.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » July 30, 2004, 10:01 pm

Actually Midnyte you are a racist and a religist.

and on the thread itself...
I think that it is reasonable to ask that people be able to understand a simple ballot approved by both major parties to be able to vote.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » July 30, 2004, 10:15 pm

Yeah. Keep on making me out to be a racist. It working as effectively as Michael Moore lies are working on the mindless masses of America. Oooops. That's pretty effective then. Oh well. Believe your lies.

Midnyte, allow me to first quote you:

Fuck Muslims

Now let me quote Wikipedia:

The United Nations uses a definition of racist discrimination, laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and adopted in 1965:

"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."

So yes, you ARE a racist, according to your countrys definitions, if you with to stand up to your statements on this board.
If you wanna read some more about racism, which you appearantly need if youre convinced you're not one, here are the lin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 30, 2004, 11:52 pm

Hesten wrote:
Yeah. Keep on making me out to be a racist. It working as effectively as Michael Moore lies are working on the mindless masses of America. Oooops. That's pretty effective then. Oh well. Believe your lies.
Midnyte, allow me to first quote you:

Fuck Muslims
Now let me quote Wikipedia:
The United Nations uses a definition of racist discrimination, laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and adopted in 1965:

"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."
So yes, you ARE a racist, according to your countrys definitions, if you with to stand up to your statements on this board.
If you wanna read some more about racism, which you appearantly need if youre convinced you're not one, here are the lin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist

LOL

You are so precious. In your little sweet and wonder world of candy canes, flowers, and everything else nice and lovely....people can never say any mean thing and not mean it to the core of their very being. These people shall be forever pigeon holed by their expressions of their feelings in a hostile manner.

FUCK YOU HESTEN. Does this mean I hate you? Nope.

Have you ever said fuck you to a friend of yours? You know, your friend pisses you off, you say fuck you, then 10 minutes later everything is cool. He knows you don't mean it. He knows you are blowing off steam. That's because in the real world, thats what people do.

Stop acting like you live in a perfect little world. Be REALISTIC. Acknowledge reality. Acknowledge people can be a many things.

FUCK YOU HESTEN.

Just for you I will add to my prior statement....FUCK EXTREMIST MUSLIMS!

Happy? I'd hate to offend you in your wordl where everyone must be 100% politically correct and specify every little thing, because people are incapable of understanding your expression of anger, without assuming you hate everyone.

Anyway I'm ranting. It bothers me a smidge that so many of you left wing wackos keep calling me things I'm not, just because I'm not a nice little politically correct pussy....but, what really matters is the people who actually know me, know I'm not. So I guess I really don't giuve a fuck what you think.

One more time for good measure....FUCK YOU HESTEN

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » July 31, 2004, 12:14 am

Have you ever said fuck you to a friend of yours? You know, your friend pisses you off, you say fuck you, then 10 minutes later everything is cool. He knows you don't mean it. He knows you are blowing off steam. That's because in the real world, thats what people do.

Yea, but heres the thing, youve said you meant it. many times.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » July 31, 2004, 1:06 am

Fuck you Midnyte.

I really, really, really mean it.

No, really.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » July 31, 2004, 9:40 am

If a few dozen people came up to me and said I was a racist, I would stop and think to myslef, "Hey, if 50 people told me I was, I just might be one".

You see Mid, this is what the intelligent, rational people would do.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » July 31, 2004, 10:09 am

Lynks wrote:If a few dozen people came up to me and said I was a racist, I would stop and think to myslef, "Hey, if 50 people told me I was, I just might be one".

You see Mid, this is what the intelligent, rational people would do.

Nah those crazy niggers, dirty spics, and fucking muslims are just spewing liberal left wing propaganda

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » July 31, 2004, 11:43 am

Midnyte and Michael Moore may be brothers, they both scream lies and attacks then call it humor when they are reproached for it.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » July 31, 2004, 12:21 pm

The rules regarding voting have changed over the years. The will of the people can change. It's revealing how many of you react by closing your minds to even the notion of change or debating that change.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 31, 2004, 12:49 pm

Lynks wrote:If a few dozen people came up to me and said I was a racist, I would stop and think to myslef, "Hey, if 50 people told me I was, I just might be one".

You see Mid, this is what the intelligent, rational people would do.

You see Lynks, that's what a person who is unsure of themselves would do. If you are confident in who you are, you don't bend over backwards because a small portion of people feel a certain way about you that you know is contrary to who you really are. That's the trend in America, unfortunately, where people in politics, corporations, etc......hear a small amount of people showing displeasure at something and they change their whole platform or policies for everyone over what a vocal minority wants.

Plus, you, along with way too many people, are in this "label" mindset. You have this deep seeded desire to pigeon hole every one into certain categories. If someone, such as myself, speaks in heated words every so often, then they MUST fit into a certain label. I make a concerted effort everyday to not do that to people. I have a problem with throwing the "liberal" tag out a lot. I realize that, and intend to work on that. I'm also going to make a my second attempt to stay away from this board. If I can stick with it better than my numerous attempts to quit smoking, take care everyone.

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » July 31, 2004, 12:54 pm

Xzion wrote:
Lynks wrote:If a few dozen people came up to me and said I was a racist, I would stop and think to myslef, "Hey, if 50 people told me I was, I just might be one".

You see Mid, this is what the intelligent, rational people would do.
Nah those crazy niggers, dirty spics, and fucking muslims are just spewing liberal left wing propaganda

Can we please stop with using the racial slurs? Even in a sarcastic manner. Seriously. . .stop. It is not cool.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » July 31, 2004, 5:00 pm

Midnyte wrote:Have you ever said fuck you to a friend of yours? You know, your friend pisses you off, you say fuck you, then 10 minutes later everything is cool. He knows you don't mean it. He knows you are blowing off steam. That's because in the real world, thats what people do.

So, your statement of "fuck muslims" was simply you blowing off steam, and you didn't really mean it? Because if that's not the case, and you're willing to stand by your statement, then your argument means fuck all.[/quote]

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » August 1, 2004, 3:01 am

wow, I think I'd just say "shove it".

No how about something a little less vulgar like "shut the fuck up?"

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » August 1, 2004, 3:58 pm

Hesten wrote:
Yeah. Keep on making me out to be a racist. It working as effectively as Michael Moore lies are working on the mindless masses of America. Oooops. That's pretty effective then. Oh well. Believe your lies.
Midnyte, allow me to first quote you:

Fuck Muslims
Now let me quote Wikipedia:
The United Nations uses a definition of racist discrimination, laid out in the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination and adopted in 1965:

"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."
So yes, you ARE a racist, according to your countrys definitions, if you with to stand up to your statements on this board.
If you wanna read some more about racism, which you appearantly need if youre convinced you're not one, here are the lin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist

I know I am being somewhat nit-picking here, and I certainly do not support Midnyte's statement so don't try to construe this in support of it, but your accusation of racism doesn't seem to be supported by the definition you quote. Muslim is not related to "race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin ", its a religous affiliation. You could be of any genetic heritage on the planet and still be a muslim if you adhere to the religion of Islam (at least that is my understanding).

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » August 1, 2004, 4:54 pm

Religion can be covered by descent, nationality, ethnic origin, all 3 of those easily. Most people don't really have a "choice". Yes, they have a choice, but it's drilled into their heads from the moment they can retain a thought that it's the right way. Now no, not all Muslim's are like that, but I'd say the majority are.

Fuck Midnytes. <--- not racist, just the plain truth.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 1, 2004, 5:12 pm

Metanis wrote:The rules regarding voting have changed over the years. The will of the people can change. It's revealing how many of you react by closing your minds to even the notion of change or debating that change.

Closed minded abouting reversing a previous change. The US has been there done that, had a revolution to change it. If people refused to consider barring women from voting again would you be surprised?

Even if people did go along with your retarded opinion what would be the threshold that qualifies someone to vote? To the rich someone making 50k a year's contribution and level of ownership is fairly insignificant. Wouldn't the rich's argument that only the rich should vote because they have the most at stake make as much sense as your argument?

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » August 1, 2004, 11:16 pm

Fer the love of god (or anti-god, as the case may be!

) STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!!! Its getting seriously boring. yeesh.

*Hugs*
Varia

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 2, 2004, 1:26 am

Winnow wrote:I see a 17 and a 19. Lets compromise and make it 18 across the globe for everything.

bad idea
You def. need to have the driving age before the drinking age or vice versa, or not have a drinking age at all. Drinking age the same as driving age is plain ass fucking stupid

Damn, Metanis is worse then midnyte, if anyone else notices, like all other conservatives all his posts and arguments involve limiting or taking away american freedoms/libertys, people like that are fucking scary, im ashamed to be living in a day in age with people that have such a disgusting, regressive mindset.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 2, 2004, 1:56 am

Xzion wrote:
Winnow wrote:I see a 17 and a 19. Lets compromise and make it 18 across the globe for everything.
bad idea
You def. need to have the driving age before the drinking age or vice versa, or not have a drinking age at all. Drinking age the same as driving age is plain ass fucking stupid

Damn, Metanis is worse then midnyte, if anyone else notices, like all other conservatives all his posts and arguments involve limiting or taking away american freedoms/libertys, people like that are fucking scary, im ashamed to be living in a day in age with people that have such a disgusting, regressive mindset.

And all of your posts consists of wanting to get high and drinking at the age of 2.

How is having both drinking and driving ages being hte same a bad idea? Im curious.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 2, 2004, 2:15 am

Lynks wrote:
Xzion wrote:
Winnow wrote:I see a 17 and a 19. Lets compromise and make it 18 across the globe for everything.
bad idea
You def. need to have the driving age before the drinking age or vice versa, or not have a drinking age at all. Drinking age the same as driving age is plain ass fucking stupid

Damn, Metanis is worse then midnyte, if anyone else notices, like all other conservatives all his posts and arguments involve limiting or taking away american freedoms/libertys, people like that are fucking scary, im ashamed to be living in a day in age with people that have such a disgusting, regressive mindset.
And all of your posts consists of wanting to get high and drinking at the age of 2.

How is having both drinking and driving ages being hte same a bad idea? Im curious.

Hey, 18th birthday let me take my new car to the bar, get my ass drunk, and drive home with 2 months of driving experience!
Idealy you want no drinking age (because face it, there really isnt one) and a driving age of either 16 or 18 depending on what country/region you live in

I have experienced both an American and a European upbringing, as well as being exposed to people of all social and political philosophies and find that with those with more liberal lifestyles and progressive regulations, or lack there of lead a more cultured and postive lifestyle

Europeans and Americans with more progressive philosophies are generally more cultured and socially mature on a myriad of levels, such lifestyles are the future of social progression, our religious puritan roots drag this nation down, corrupt our minds in propaganda and lead to blind support for presidents such as George Bush, which no other country in the "Free world" would EVER elect.

The religious right and the fanatics in this country can only be related to those of the middle east, and such cultural conservatism (there’s a good oxymoron) is tearing away at our dying reputation for being "the leaders of the free world", and I fear that with time the American government can regress to such levels of authoritarianism similar to that of the Taliban

Unless we put an end to this fascist-like movement I will be forced to abandon all hope in the United States, and it is up to my generation and those after it to lead it to progress, and not take it down the shithole that those with the mindset similar to George Bush and other politicians in power are trying to move it towards

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 2, 2004, 10:09 am

You def. need to have the driving age before the drinking age or vice versa, or not have a drinking age at all. Drinking age the same as driving age is plain ass fucking stupid

Works fine with half intelligent and responsible kids. We have drinking and driving the same age (18), although most people don't wait until they are legal to drink (like they wait until 21 in the US heh.. riiight!). Of course we can also practice drive with our parents from the age of 16.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 2, 2004, 11:16 am

Kelshara wrote:
You def. need to have the driving age before the drinking age or vice versa, or not have a drinking age at all. Drinking age the same as driving age is plain ass fucking stupid
Works fine with half intelligent and responsible kids. We have drinking and driving the same age (18), although most people don't wait until they are legal to drink (like they wait until 21 in the US heh.. riiight!). Of course we can also practice drive with our parents from the age of 16.

Theres no reason for a drinking age at all, without one people are more mature and responcible regarding alcohol at a higher age, such being the case my ass wouldnt be cleaning up throwup at my house partys back in the day, no drinking age works fine in most places

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » August 2, 2004, 12:30 pm

There are a lot of people that still don't know how to drink after years of "experience". Removing a drinking age is absurd. Once someone gets their license, I don't care how much drinking experience they have, plenty of people will drink like a moron and still drive.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 2, 2004, 12:40 pm

i was my most irresponsible with drinking and driving in my early 20s when i was living on my own, etc. i think that is probably not that uncommon of a scenario.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 2, 2004, 12:52 pm

Sylvus wrote:
Chidoro wrote:Since this decision making ability isn't necessary in order to pick up a gun for the military, they aren't equal, nor should they be considered as such.
/boggle

In my opinion, pointing a gun at someone and deciding if they are going to live or die and the permanent effects that making that choice will have on a person takes quite a bit more maturity than deciding whether or not it's Miller time. If anything the age for drinking should be lower than it is for joining the military.

Absolutely not. Why, because you weren't deciding to fire the gun at all, you were TOLD to fire it. No choice is entered into the equation at all.

And people bitch about insurance now, holy shit would they be in for a fucking shock if it was lowered again

Post by **Sylvus** » August 2, 2004, 1:25 pm

What's with the whole insurance angle? Like car insurance? What does that have to do with anything? You're saying that the drinking age that was lowered to 18 was raised back to 21 because of insurance rates going up? That is an interesting assertion that I was unaware of, but that still doesn't mean that it takes more maturity to drink than it does to kill for your country.

Regardless of the fact that someone in the military is told to pull the trigger, I believe that it still has quite an effect on a person. That is where the maturity comes in. The young person is still the one who ultimately decides whether to follow that order or not, and they have to deal with its consequences. How many people have come back from war completely fucked in the head, and how many people are still out there in the military that are fucked in the head (read: Abu Ghraib)? Which begat the other?

All I am trying to say is that it doesn't inherently take more maturity to understand what drinking a beer will do to you than it does to follow one's orders to kill another person. I, in fact, believe the opposite.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » August 2, 2004, 1:38 pm

VariaVespasa wrote:Fer the love of god (or anti-god, as the case may be! ) STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!!! Its getting seriously boring. yeesh.

*Hugs*
Varia

Which one, Midnyte or Winnow? Getting harder to tell them apart!

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 2, 2004, 5:19 pm

Sylvus wrote:What's with the whole insurance angle? Like car insurance? What does that have to do with anything? You're saying that the drinking age that was lowered to 18 was raised back to 21 because of insurance rates going up? That is an interesting assertion that I was unaware of, but that still doesn't mean that it takes more maturity to drink than it does to kill for your country.

It does, we just happen to quantify maturity along different lines I guess.

Regardless of the fact that someone in the military is told to pull the trigger, I believe that it still has quite an effect on a person. That is where the maturity comes in. The young person is still the one who ultimately decides whether to follow that order or not, and they have to deal with its consequences. How many people have come back from war completely fucked in the head, and how many people are still out there in the military that are fucked in the head (read: Abu Ghraib)? Which begat the other?

All I am trying to say is that it doesn't inherently take more maturity to understand what drinking a beer will do to you than it does to follow one's orders to kill another person. I, in fact, believe the opposite.

When it comes to the ramifications of ones actions, the decision process of drinking can be made, the decision to pull the trigger cannot. That's not the credo. I have had plenty of family members fight in combat. One in particular turns 90 in 6 days. He'd be the first one to tell you, you follow orders, end of story. That's the way the military works. That's how it functions. That's how you get indivuals to do things completely uncharacteristic of their beliefs. It's not an option. It's not a decision once you decide to sign a paper to the military. That's the point. Decision making is removed from the grunt.

As far as insurance goes, statistics show that the age increase played a siginicant factor in rates. While I was an actuary from '92 to '97, it couldn't be proven against, and I seriously doubt it could be proven against to this day. You think that the cost of lower the legal age to 18 will not show what's been proven, that the costs to many health related issues won't outweigh the pros, which is allowing people that can't statistically control the issue, force people like me and yourself to pay higher insurance rates, health care costs, and numerous other extra costs that would be unecessary had a barrier be presented.

It's not even a debate when it comes to cost. You can cite any number of issues that you think to be relevant w/ regards to personal freedoms which should equal other personal freedoms. Be my quest if you want to change society to understand that access removes the stigma, I could care less. There's nothing that I would want more than for everyone to understand that desire for the untouchable creates a larger desire. But that's not what's happening here. Pulling a lever or a trigger because you are ordered to is not the same issue as the one that will cost everyone because of the inability to handle the situation.