Im surprised nothing was posted on this

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » July 20, 2004, 3:12 pm

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Former colleagues Tuesday defended former national security adviser Samuel Berger from allegations that he took secret documents from the National Archives while reviewing Clinton administration records for the 9/11 commission."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/ ... index.html

Did someone get caught with their hand in the cookie jar.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » July 20, 2004, 3:52 pm

From what I heard in reports, what he took was his own notes which were already declassified. The claim is that it was an accident while he was doing research and if I remember, he's already returned them all. The reason it's a big stink is because it's against the law to remove documents of any kind from there. But not a big deal overall.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » July 20, 2004, 4:27 pm

Fox should be happy, they have a new news story besides the Laci Peterson trial.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » July 20, 2004, 6:30 pm

This is a perfect example of what makes me so mad about politics right now- if a Bush flunky was caught removing documents, even a grocery list, from the National Archives, this thread would have 2 pages already and several of you would have burned Cart in effigy by now. Instead, it's simply "no big deal."

I have no problem taking a look at Bush and identifying areas I am ok with, and areas I have problems with. Is this an ability I alone possess? Can't some of you look at this and go, "Man, he fucked up- wonder what he was trying to hide?"

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » July 20, 2004, 6:49 pm

Mak,

This is the exact bullshit I have been trying to expose for the last 4 years. But, they won't admit their bias. They will just keep throwing labels around to try and detract from their own unbalanced ways.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 20, 2004, 6:54 pm

Well, there is nothing to debate.

He did it, returned the documents, admitted he made the mistake, and it was his own notes he had in the first place. Its not like he was misplacing National Guard microfilm or something. I am sure he will get the propper legal recourse for making that error. If not, well then thats not right. The reason no lefties are commenting on it is that its an open shut situation.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » July 20, 2004, 6:55 pm

Mak wrote:This is a perfect example of what makes me so mad about politics right now- if a Bush flunky was caught removing documents, even a grocery list, from the National Archives, this thread would have 2 pages already and several of you would have burned Cart in effigy by now. Instead, it's simply "no big deal."

I have no problem taking a look at Bush and identifying areas I am ok with, and areas I have problems with. Is this an ability I alone possess? Can't some of you look at this and go, "Man, he fucked up- wonder what he was trying to hide?"

I think it would be a more appropriate comparison if you chose a Regan flunky rather than a Bush flunky. The guy isn't in office anymore.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » July 20, 2004, 6:57 pm

Mak wrote:This is a perfect example of what makes me so mad about politics right now- if a Bush flunky was caught removing documents, even a grocery list, from the National Archives, this thread would have 2 pages already and several of you would have burned Cart in effigy by now. Instead, it's simply "no big deal."

I have no problem taking a look at Bush and identifying areas I am ok with, and areas I have problems with. Is this an ability I alone possess? Can't some of you look at this and go, "Man, he fucked up- wonder what he was trying to hide?"

You mean along the lines of his miltary records? As far as the issue at hand, look at the facts of the case, the original was NEVER REMOVED, he made a copy and while writing notes for the 9/11 panel wrote notes on the back of the COPY of the original, he then took those notes and on the reverse side A COPY of something that was not supposed to leave. THE ORIGINAL NEVER LEFT THE ROOM AND WAS VIEWED BY THE 9/11 PANEL WITHOUT ANY OBSTRUCTION. You are not allowed to remove anything besides notes, copies are not allowed to leave and when one of the copies was unaccounted for, as they keep track of your copies, the mistake was realized and it was turned over. Does this help you understand how he couldn't have been hiding a damn thing as he did NOT REMOVE ANY ORIGINAL?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » July 20, 2004, 10:54 pm

Making notes from a confidential or otherwise classified document is illegal.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » July 20, 2004, 11:22 pm

Kylere wrote:Making notes from a confidential or otherwise classified document is illegal.

Actually if you are being called before the panel it is technically not illegal if you need said notes to refer to when you are in front of the panel, the issue was the direct copy he removed.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » July 20, 2004, 11:41 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Mak,

This is the exact bullshit I have been trying to expose for the last 4 years. But, they won't admit their bias. They will just keep throwing labels around to try and detract from their own unbalanced ways.

Dude what the fuck are you talking about FOX NEWS is undesputeably, probrably even by Midnyte and Metanis THE most biased newsource in the country, and most likely one of the most biased propaganda *cough* news sources in the world, stop your bitching if you wanna get brainwashed turn on fox news
If you want some Left Wing fillers turn on ABC
If you want balanced, although i have found some conservative leaning a lot lately, turn on CNN

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 20, 2004, 11:44 pm

the most interesting part about the story is that the investigation has been ongoing since Oct 2003, and it was only the week before the Democratic convention that the White House had somebody leak it.

THe part about him stuffing something in his sock is probably a lie, just part of the political play. Regardless, the whole thing is highly suspicious, and he obviously should have known what he was doing with those documents. What is peculiar is that even Republicans think that Berger has a stellar reputation and are moderately surprised by all this.

Anyway, supposedly he's been going along with the DoJ since last October, and they have not indicated to his lawyer that they have any intention of filing charges.

if he wasn't an advisor for the Kerry campaign and this wasn't almost on the eve of the 9/11 report being issued, then this story would still be hush hush.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » July 21, 2004, 12:32 am

The administration just wants to place a plausible doubt out there that the 9/11 report will make Bush look bad only because the Clinton bogeyman returned from teh grave to misinform the commission.

Did I say plausible doubt? I meant ridiculous conjecture. That's all the devoted Bushies need to explain away the potentially unpleasant findings of the bipartisan 9/11 commission (which Bush fought tooth and nail to prevent and refused to testify alone or under oath before).

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » July 21, 2004, 8:51 am

His lawyer was on Wolf Blitzer's show lastnight on CNN.

I watched it. I watched Wolf try to stump the guy...but he was pretty untouchable....well....since this case is 9 MONTHS OLD!!! If he truly did something illegal, he would have been tried and whatnot by now. Things like this don't just "hang out there" for years.

Also, his lawyer was saying that the mostly republican panel promised to keep this quit, and as non-partison as possible. Fucken politics.

That's why I have a problem with it. The guy takes a job on Kerry's staff, then all of the sudden, the case is leaked to the press.

There is no way possible that this was anything but a Republican ploy. Politics make me fucken sick.

I WANT MY "NO CONFIDENCE" OPTION WHEN I VOTE THIS FALL!!!

Ceredwin · Post by **Ceredwin** » July 21, 2004, 11:08 am

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/ ... index.html

Aside from his own notes, he did remove original documents, one of which is still missing.

"Archives officials have also told investigators that one document is still missing -- an analysis of the effectiveness of counterterrorism efforts against threats tied to the turn of the Millennium."

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » July 21, 2004, 1:31 pm

Forthe wrote:
Mak wrote:This is a perfect example of what makes me so mad about politics right now- if a Bush flunky was caught removing documents, even a grocery list, from the National Archives, this thread would have 2 pages already and several of you would have burned Cart in effigy by now. Instead, it's simply "no big deal."

I have no problem taking a look at Bush and identifying areas I am ok with, and areas I have problems with. Is this an ability I alone possess? Can't some of you look at this and go, "Man, he fucked up- wonder what he was trying to hide?"
I think it would be a more appropriate comparison if you chose a Regan flunky rather than a Bush flunky. The guy isn't in office anymore.

Actually he was an offical advisor to the Kerry campaign. . .resigned yesterday. Jice explains that it is not a big deal because he says he returned everything. . .hmm wonder if you would give that benefit of the doubt to a Bush Administration member. . .yeah you prolly would.

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » July 21, 2004, 1:33 pm

Xzion wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Mak,

This is the exact bullshit I have been trying to expose for the last 4 years. But, they won't admit their bias. They will just keep throwing labels around to try and detract from their own unbalanced ways.
Dude what the fuck are you talking about FOX NEWS is undesputeably, probrably even by Midnyte and Metanis THE most biased newsource in the country, and most likely one of the most biased propaganda *cough* news sources in the world, stop your bitching if you wanna get brainwashed turn on fox news
If you want some Left Wing fillers turn on ABC
If you want balanced, although i have found some conservative leaning a lot lately, turn on CNN

uh. . .not.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 21, 2004, 3:13 pm

he was an "unofficial advisor".

regardless, the big issue is that the 9/11 commission saw all the "documents in question". So if the "motive" in this crime is to deny the 9/11 commission evidence that would reflect poorly on the Clinton Administration, then the job was botched.

the 9/11 commission has stated publically that nothing that may have been missing after Berger's trip to the archives kept anything from their eyes.

A Republican strategist last night on CBS news even admitted that basically the timing of this leak was somebody trying to monkey with the system. in other words, the Republicans are trying to distract the media attention that is going to be focused on the damning indictment of the Bush administration that comes from the 9/11 commission's report.

shocker.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » July 21, 2004, 7:15 pm

Or it could be someone in competition with Berger for one of Kerry's nominated cabinet positions. You don't know who or why =p

Personally, I blame Canada.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » July 23, 2004, 2:03 pm

Did Samuel Berger mess up, yes.

However - Samuel Berger is a true hero, he is the man behind stopping the millenium bomb plots. He saved thousands of lives in not only the Los Angelas area but american lives around the world.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » July 23, 2004, 4:38 pm

Based on what? If he's such a hero then why did he take the documents pertaining to said events?

Why are you calling this man a hero? I knew next to nothing of him until this came out.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » July 23, 2004, 4:53 pm

He *PUT* those articles there to begin with, to help future generations deal with terrorism.

He took notes on those documents in order to testify to the 9/11 commission.

I am calling him a hero because he's the man behind the millenium bomb plot being stopped, and saved thousands of lives.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » July 23, 2004, 4:59 pm

Here is a link to help educate you on the millenium bomb plot

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... il/inside/

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » July 23, 2004, 6:38 pm

from that report:

There was considerable luck involved. ... It was not an intelligence success. It was not a case where, because of good intelligence practice, counterintelligence, counterterrorist practice, that we had identified individuals and were able to track them and then intercept them. And I think an important lesson will be, and was taken, is what did we know, what did the government of Canada and the U.S. government know, what should we, might we have [done beforehand to lessen] the risk that such a person should be able to operate and get as far as he did? ...

...from his deputy NSA. Pretty well admits they only caught him because they got lucky. The reports he's alleged to have taken are a so-called report card on how they handled the situation. Correct me if I'm wrong (as I know you will

) but there's a difference between requesting the production of these reports and "putting them there." Why would he take all the drafts if there was nothing but praise in them? What is he hiding if he's such a "hero?"

I really don't know, but I doubt he's worthy of the pedestal you put him on.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 23, 2004, 6:43 pm

4 different members of the 9/11 committee yesterday said that nothing that Berger did effected their ability to view the documents in question. 2 of these people are Republican. Additionally, one of the 2 republicans said they thought it was unfortunate that this story had been leaked at this time because it distracted the attention from where it should be focused.