Socialized medicine has its own problems.

[Adex_Xeda]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/o ... hak13.html

Fifty percent of the Canadian hospital administrators said the average waiting time for a 65-year-old man who requires a routine hip replacement was more than six months; in contrast, not one American hospital administrator reported waiting periods that long. Eighty-six percent of American hospital administrators said the average waiting time was shorter than three weeks; only 3 percent of Canadian hospital administrators said their patients have this brief a wait.

Canadian physicians' frustration with their inability to provide quality and timely care is resulting in a brain drain. A doctor shortage looms as the nation falls 500 doctors a year short of the 2,500 new physicians it needs, according to Sally C. Pipes, president of the San Francisco-based Pacific Research Institute.

Another casualty of the lengthy waiting periods is Canada's much-vaunted equal access to medical treatment. Even though medical emergencies allow some people to jump ahead in the waiting line — making others wait longer — a survey published in the Annals of Internal Medicine medical journal found that more than 90 percent of heart specialists had "been involved in the care of a patient who received preferential access" to cardiac care because of non-medical reasons including the patient's social standing or personal connections with the treating physician.

The Canadian system works fine for minor problems, but danger lies ahead as baby boomers age and more serious illnesses afflict them. Call it "Canadazation," the myth of high-quality, "free" care. Its real costs in human suffering are ones that U.S. proponents don't want you to know about.

[Niffoni]

There's no question that with the aging popultion, the shrinking number of doctors staying in Canada (when they can make a bundle in the states prescribing ritalin to everything that moves), and the increasing cuts to health care (as well as the closing of old hospitals) that Canada's medical care system is in the shitter, and it might get worse still. This is not so much a problem with socialized medicare as it is with the current implimentation and belt-tightening Canada is doing with its social programs.

I still strongly prefer it over the American system. I've watched too many friends south of the boarder suffer because they can't afford to be treated.

Plus, I kinda like the old Canadian joke that states we have less shootings in the country because the shooter has to help pay the medical bill.

Doesn't mean that our health care system isn't in serious shit right now, though. It is.

[kyoukan]

OH NO SOCIALIZED MEDICINE ISNT PERFECT THIS IS DEFINITELY NEWS

[Adex_Xeda]

It's news Kyo when it's touted as an ideal solution by democratic candidates.

[Adex_Xeda]

I favor the American system with tight restrictions on malpractice lawsuits.

Get the super high liablity insurance monkeys of people's backs and you'll see prices drop bigtime.

[Sueven]

Exactly which democratic candidate has proposed socializing our health care system?

IMO, the real solution is universal health insurance.

[Chidoro]

And, what's your point Adex? That a competing country on it's borders who rewards physicians tend to "cherry pick" from the lot or is it that our system with contracts that would make your head spin will reduce your level of care because of situations you have no control over, especially if you're unfortunate enough to contract a disease not covered or subsidized by a pharmaceutical company at a particular hospital that has such a "disagreement" of financial coverage for that particular instance?

Seriously, just because a socialist bending healthcare system has issues, doesn't mean that the system itself is poorly designed, not by a long shot.

Ohh, and my financial experience has been, solely, involved with the insurance and/or healthcare industry since 1992 when I received my degree in Actuarial Science.

Trust me, the US system is worse off than a more socialistic approach

[Forthe]

We've cut funding to Medicare (other programs as well) and we've experienced a reduction in services. It sucks but its fiscally responsible. I hope the government puts interest saving back into Medicare but I want them to continue reducing debt. Down the road we'll have more money available to fund Medicare as a result.

Adex all your figures means next to nothing to me when I consider that 15% of your population has no health care. That is freaking retarded in an economy such as yours. You could have a far superior universal system to ours just based on scale without even considering your higher GDP\capita.

I agree in principle with Sueven's preference for universal health insurance but when you consider how the US government presently steals from the poor (you) and gives to the rich (drug companies) I'd be careful what you wish for (another case where just based on scale the US should have a better system than Canada).

[Sueven]

but when you consider how the US government presently steals from the poor (you) and gives to the rich (drug companies) I'd be careful what you wish for

Excellent point.

[Zaelath]

Yeah, and what's the waiting time for a 65 to get a hip replacement with no insurance in the US? Jackass.

[Traz-KOE]

Clearly I know where to go when I graduate med school.

[Avestan]

I hear they will hire med students with a 1.5 GPA in Tanzania, is that what you were thinking?

I kid I kid

[Adex_Xeda]

My point is simple. Government is ill equipped to handle something like universal healthcare. Hell it can't manage medicare. Do you honestly want to give the government MORE power and responsiblity so it can run stuff into the ground like it is medicare?
There are better ways.

If we got a handle on our drug laws, and reinstated common sense in our malpractice lawsuits we'd see affordable health care.

I dislike the idea that everyone has a *right* to healthcare. Where do you stop? Does everyone have a right to free drugs, free college educations, free childcare, free automobiles, free paid medical leave, full unemployment benefits, free housing, free groceries, free stock options, free dvd players, free cable?

Those aren't rights. Those are options that you should have the *right* to work and pay for.

[Niffoni]

Stop! STOP! Can't we all just sit down, and have a nice discussion about our polarizing worldviews? Like we used to? Like... like a family?

[Kylere]

If malpractice suits were made illegal tomorrow you would not see a single price drop at the doctors. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

[Adex_Xeda]

And the alternative is to dump it all into the government as if it's the model of effciency?

Nah, you got to give my way a chance.

[Sueven]

Adex:

It's news Kyo when it's touted as an ideal solution by democratic candidates.

Exactly which democratic candidate has proposed socializing our health care system?

Got an answer?

[Tyek]

All I know is I spend over 10K a year on insurance and co-pays and all that buys me is a 70%-30% PPO policy with a 40 dollar Co-Pay.

While no system is perfect, at the rate we are raising insurance every year, only people making 200K a year will be able to afford it.

My insurance policy this year went from a 80-20 to the new 70-30 and just to make sure that I was doubly fucked they raised the monthly price 200 dollars a month. So they cut the benefits and raised the price. Seems to me if they reduced lawsuits then the insurance companies would just increase their profits.

I am not in favor of handing the government more control, but this is assinine.

[Niffoni]

I dislike the idea that everyone has a *right* to healthcare. Where do you stop?

You may say that, but I'm willing to bet that the "rights" and benefits that you grew up with seem pretty important to you. The only reason you dislike this idea is because it's not the one you're used to.

If someone from another country told you that they can't understand why your government funds a police force and a fire fighting force, and quoted your high violent crime rate and under-funded civil servents as proof that it doesn't work, you'd think they were insane.

Now imagine that they suggest that the only practical thing to do would be to have privately hired security teams so that only those with money would be protected from crime, and that if your house caught on fire, you should have to give the guy down at the station your information when you call him, and hope that your insurance covers firefighting. Wouldn't that seem just a little barbaric to a nation in which people believe they have the right to these services whenever they're needed?

Clearly, however, abandoning these programs is the way to go. They're understaffed and underfunded in many parts of your country, so they're just plain impractical.

[Adex_Xeda]

You may say that, but I'm willing to bet that the "rights" and benefits that you grew up with seem pretty important to you. The only reason you dislike this idea is because it's not the one you're used to.

If someone from another country told you that they can't understand why your government funds a police force and a fire fighting force, and quoted your high violent crime rate and under-funded civil servents as proof that it doesn't work, you'd think they were insane.

Now imagine that they suggest that the only practical thing to do would be to have privately hired security teams so that only those with money would be protected from crime, and that if your house caught on fire, you should have to give the guy down at the station your information when you call him, and hope that your insurance covers firefighting. Wouldn't that seem just a little barbaric to a nation in which people believe they have the right to these services whenever they're needed?

Clearly, however, abandoning these programs is the way to go. They're understaffed and underfunded in many parts of your country, so they're just plain impractical.

Unrealistic hypotheticals aside, I don't think we should abandon the goal of affordable healthcare. I simply hold that government is a poor solution to the problem.

Reform of our current law in the areas of malpractice and drug company support and I we'll have a good starting point to practical cost reduction.

[Legenae]

The Canadian medical system may not be perfect, but after going to the doctor here in the U.S. for the first time last week, I miss my Canadian system. I actually had to PAY (well my fiance paid) - where as in Canada I could go see the doctor any time and not pay anything at all - this goes for hospital visits too.

I do like my new doctor here though. I'm just not used to paying $200+ for a doctor's visit that would normally have been for free.

[Adex_Xeda]

In Canadan you do pay for the doctor bill, it's just that you money goes through more middle men(waste) before it reaches the doctor.

[Niffoni]

Unrealistic hypotheticals aside, I don't think we should abandon the goal of affordable healthcare. I simply hold that government is a poor solution to the problem.

To an extent I agree with you on this. There was a lot of talk about this in the Canadian election, and frankly, while unpopular, I kind of liked the view that private medical practices could be part of the health care system. Not to replace our current system, but to be a part of its continuing evolution.

I stongly disagree that my hypothetical analogy is such a far cry from the opinion that socialized healthcare is a foolish idea, but at least you've thought this issue through and formed reasoned opinions on it, unlike many I've had the misfortune of discussing it with. Health care as a basic human right is just something I believe rather strongly in. I've seen the miracles it can work just as I've seen the problems it can cause.

[Chidoro]

You know nothing of the healthcare system Adex, please, just knock off your assumptions as if they are fact. it doesn't matter how many people's hands the money has to pass through, it's all about reimbursement rates based off of numerical calculations. Shit, the largest provider in NJ is non-profit.

Just don't think you know the whole story before you start throwing around the "Hands in pocket" theory. Just take a look around your doctor's office the next time you go for an appointment before you think the "middlemen" don't exist in pronounced numbers in the US. Hell, even the fucking STATIONARY is supplied by the pharm companies. Look next time, I dare you. Try and find a pen or paper or poster etc etc that isn't supplied by a "middleman" of some kind.

Seriously, the most stubborn people on certain topics wander through here yet they are, also, the most ignorant on such topics.

[kyoukan]

In Canadan you do pay for the doctor bill, it's just that you money goes through more middle men(waste) before it reaches the doctor.

you are such a retard. even moreso you actually think the private sector in the states is doing a better job than the government in canada. try going to the emergency room in the states with a burst appendix and no medical insurance and let me know how superior the medical system is down there. also: die.

[Kelshara]

Eh I kind of like the idea of free medical aid and education Puts everyone on a more equal basis and they can work their way from there. Of course, that would lead ot more competition for the people from the better off half of the population like Adex!

[Zaelath]

You may say that, but I'm willing to bet that the "rights" and benefits that you grew up with seem pretty important to you. The only reason you dislike this idea is because it's not the one you're used to.

If someone from another country told you that they can't understand why your government funds a police force and a fire fighting force, and quoted your high violent crime rate and under-funded civil servents as proof that it doesn't work, you'd think they were insane.

Now imagine that they suggest that the only practical thing to do would be to have privately hired security teams so that only those with money would be protected from crime, and that if your house caught on fire, you should have to give the guy down at the station your information when you call him, and hope that your insurance covers firefighting. Wouldn't that seem just a little barbaric to a nation in which people believe they have the right to these services whenever they're needed?

Clearly, however, abandoning these programs is the way to go. They're understaffed and underfunded in many parts of your country, so they're just plain impractical.

Unrealistic hypotheticals aside, I don't think we should abandon the goal of affordable healthcare. I simply hold that government is a poor solution to the problem.

Reform of our current law in the areas of malpractice and drug company support and I we'll have a good starting point to practical cost reduction.

Seems a relatively realistic hypothetical to me.. gated communities anyone?

Every now and then I forget Adex is the kind of pure capitalist that has no interest in anyone without a dollar.

I assume you feel old people should be pushed out into the snow once they're no longer productive as well.

[Legenae]

In Canadan you do pay for the doctor bill, it's just that you money goes through more middle men(waste) before it reaches the doctor.

What I mean is in Canada (not Canadan), we don't pay for a doctor's appointment when we go in. We can walk into the doctor's office or a hospital without money - which you can't here in the U.S. from what I've seen so far. So, if I understand it correctly, here in the U.S., if you need to go to the doctor, but don't have insurance or don't have the money, you're basically screwed? And you say that's better than in Canada? Whatever.

dislike the idea that everyone has a *right* to healthcare. Where do you stop? Does everyone have a right to free drugs, free college educations, free childcare, free automobiles, free paid medical leave, full unemployment benefits, free housing, free groceries, free stock options, free dvd players, free cable?

Oh, and I believe everyone DOES have the RIGHT to healthcare. Don't give me that "where do we stop" crap. You're just being ignorant. Healthcare is NOT the same thing as a fucking DVD player or stock options etc.

[Fizzlewhip]

Having spent time in England, I have enjoyed the benefit of going to the doctors without having to bring cash with you...

and at the same time also enjoyed watching over 40 percent of my pay being taken out for NHS.. hmm national health service.

I wonder. Do they take out that type of tax in Canada, and what is the rate?

here, my bill is mostly paid by my company, with my total insurance bill of 200 dollars a month, that covers my daughter as well. My co pay is only 15 dollars.

Even a few people i know don't have jobs, and guess what! they get treatment! GASP. county hospitals, etc. The difference? they wait 8 hours to see a doctor, i wait 15 minutes.

[Legenae]

Waiting 8 hours to see a doctor would suck - but they do eventually see one, I guess.

Um, our taxes do go to our health care, and other social programs. Not sure what the rate is. I'll look it up.

*edit*

Found this link: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Healt ... da_KP.html

It's dated 1999, but it may still help with understanding Canadian health care. It's a long read though (I haven't read it all yet). but it compares U.S. health care to Canadian health care.

[Zaelath]

and at the same time also enjoyed watching over 40 percent of my pay being taken out for NHS.. hmm national health service.

I call bullshit, where do you get this 40% figure from?

If you mean 4% you might well be on track for an average amount taken for the "National Insurance" contribution.

And if you don't think you're getting robbed in the US for health insurance, look at what you pay in Australia for family coverage.. http://www.hcf.com.au/Products/health_p ... s_code=B#1

Less than your company subsidised rate, no co-pay, no gap.. gee..

edit: BTW Adex, yes.. that means you can have both systems at the same time..

[Kguku]

Waiting 8 hours to see a doctor would suck - but they do eventually see one, I guess.

Um, our taxes do go to our health care, and other social programs. Not sure what the rate is. I'll look it up.

*edit*

Found this link: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Healt ... da_KP.html

It's dated 1999, but it may still help with understanding Canadian health care. It's a long read though (I haven't read it all yet). but it compares U.S. health care to Canadian health care.

We wait 8+ hours here in Canada for emergency rooms. Mind you a doctors appointment itself is only what, down to a 2 hour wait right now in the clinics? Even after you've booked an appointment (oh oh we're running behind). My friend's GF broke her arm last week and waited almost 9 hours in emergency for anyone to get to her. I had another staff member last year who waited 12 hours while half of her body was 'numb' and she couldn't walk because of her leg not responding.

Now I'm not saying we're the worst around, but we do need to fix quite a few things with our healthcare system.

[vn_Tanc]

I dislike the idea that everyone has a *right* to healthcare

What's so wrong with that idea? You prefer people to suffer?
Mighty charitable of you there, christian.
I'm honestly aghast at your stance here, Adex.
IMO everyone has a right to health care and education. Pursuit of happiness is a luxury

[Chidoro]

We wait 8+ hours here in Canada for emergency rooms.

My guess is that you are suffering from the consequences of having a very wealthy capitalist country which borders your own. So I would imagine that the biggest problem for your country's system is that you need to keep your doctors there and/or pay them comprable salaries.

here, my bill is mostly paid by my company, with my total insurance bill of 200 dollars a month, that covers my daughter as well. My co pay is only 15 dollars.

You're lucky. A good number of people can't even get health insurance in this country and are forced to apply for charitable care.

Even a few people i know don't have jobs, and guess what! they get treatment! GASP. county hospitals, etc. The difference? they wait 8 hours to see a doctor, i wait 15 minutes.

Yes, you go to an emergency room, you get care(but will have to pay for it all out of pocket). Guess who pays more, a person w/out insurance or the company that has a contract w/ the hospital? Did you know there are two different types of billings, what the hospital calls "charges" and what they call "costs". Cost is what the service actually costs while charges are what the hospital charges someone w/out insurance. That difference can be, no joke, a 300% mark up. So not only is the person w/out insurance having to pay out of pocket, they are having to pay for all of the money a hospital eats on a daily basis.

In addition, you can and WILL be turned down by private practice physicians if you don't have any coverage, let alone if you don't have an insurance plan that greased the palm of the office to get them on board.

[Truant]

This shit cracks me up.

Want to know what happens to me in the US if I become ill, or injured?

I die.

I have no health insurance, I cannot afford it. I cannot even afford auto insurance. So I would have to take the city bus to the hospital to get treatment anyways. (if the city even has a bus system)
I make minimum wage, plus tips (though taxed on both of course)...which isn't enough to afford those things.

Listening to someone (who can afford to play the private sector's insurance game) argue that socialized health care is stupid and our current system is great, really disturbs me.

So much for your fellow man, eh?

[vn_Tanc]

And at the end of the day the only real objection I see is based (yet again) on the amount of tax people have to pay or feel they should pay.
I've payed 5-9% of every penny I've ever earned in my entire life to support the healthcare system in my country and I do not begrudge it in the slightest. Yes there are waiting lists and yes there will be delays on emergency treatment (depending on your triage assessment) but again, I'm happy to know that I _will_ get treated even if I have to wait 5 hours for an x-ray on a broken finger (which happens to be my "worst" personal experience). Because isn't just about me.

When I see people arguing for the reduction in the amount they have to pay out at the expense of a few extra dead poor people I just can't understand it. And that's while I'll always support (and gladly pay for) "socialized" healthcare. As soon as you put a price on something there are those who cannot afford it. What are they supposed to do then?

[Forthe]

And at the end of the day the only real objection I see is based (yet again) on the amount of tax people have to pay or feel they should pay.
I've payed 5-9% of every penny I've ever earned in my entire life to support the healthcare system in my country and I do not begrudge it in the slightest. Yes there are waiting lists and yes there will be delays on emergency treatment (depending on your triage assessment) but again, I'm happy to know that I _will_ get treated even if I have to wait 5 hours for an x-ray on a broken finger (which happens to be my "worst" personal experience). Because isn't just about me.

When I see people arguing for the reduction in the amount they have to pay out at the expense of a few extra dead poor people I just can't understand it. And that's while I'll always support (and gladly pay for) "socialized" healthcare. As soon as you put a price on something there are those who cannot afford it. What are they supposed to do then?

Cross the border and defraud Canada. Yes my taxes not only go towards ensuring all Canadians have health care but also quite a few americans that (are forced to? maybe) cross the border and pass themselves off as Canadians to get health care.

[Adex_Xeda]

I dislike the idea that everyone has a *right* to healthcare

What's so wrong with that idea? You prefer people to suffer?

Hell no,

I simply want the most bang for my tax dollar. Like I said before universal heath care is a worthy goal. I'm do not see how such a goal can be best acheived through government.

I'm not a pure capitalist, and heck I currently reside on the bottom end of middle class pay.

My current health insurance is what I call arm and a leg insurance. It only kicks in when I loose an arm or a leg. But do you know what? Heathcare is MY responsiblity not my government's.

If a guy who you know to be wasteful came up to you and put a gun to your head and said "give me your money, I'm your new heath insurance agent" you'd be pissed. You'd know that the guy is a poor performer, and he's taking your money against your will. You could easily spend that money elsewhere and get better coverage.

The government has a gun to my head taking my money too much already for too little return. I sure the hell don't want it to take more money from me, just to provide even more lousy service.


There has to be a better way.

[Voronwë]

over 70% of the people who don't have health insurance in the US are full time workers is a stat i've heard.

health insurance is pretty expensive if you are older and happen to have been laid off from your job.

My father's health insurance company dropped my mom after she her breast cancer treatment was concluded. Basically there was a time when nobody would insure my mom for any pre-existing conditions, and even then that policy was over $1000 a month.

So you can repeat all this rhetoric about how socialized medicine (WHICH NOBODY IS ADVOCATING except Dennnis Kucinich ) will raise taxes, well what is the difference when you are paying thousands more dollars a year of non-pretax income for your insurance policy? it actually is MORE expensive for families like my parents than it would be if they had a major tax increase.

Myself, i have great insurance with my employer, but it is a Fortune 500 company that has tremendous buying power. Small employers who may have 10 employees are having extremely difficult times paying for health plans for their employees. And GW says small business is the engine of our economy.

I would suggest that this thread offers a false choice, because socialized medicine is never going to happen in the US. what i have heard spoken about is providing health care coverage for working individuals who cannot afford to pay their own coverage, or similar things. Persons like myself, won't change. I am happy with my insurance plan. I am happy to be able to pick just about any doctor and hospital to have anything done to me that I want in this city. That is a luxury that I am willing to pay for.

Adex, people like you and I (healthy, non-smoking, males aged 22-31) are not exactly a "high risk" population of individuals for health coverage or expenses. If you were a 55 year old instead of a mid-20s guy, you would have a *very* different view of your health care expenses I would guess.

[Adex_Xeda]

I'm not speaking rhetoric I offered two ideas that I'd like to see enacted to bringing down heath care costs.

I'd like to hear other ideas, socialized or not.

[Voronwë]

perhaps i'm guilty of looking at your post through the prism of this year's election!

[masteen]

We have a number of contributing factors to high costs for health insurance in this country.

Malpractise lawsuits are a huge expense for insurance companies. They pass these costs on to us.

American kids aren't studying to be cardiologists or neurosurgeons. They all want to be plastic surgeons and dermatologists, because the voluntary nature of these proceedures lowers their exposure to malpractise, and the fat bling-bling these kinds of doctors make.

Pharm companies use America and our insurance companies as the cash cow to pay for their R&D costs. Pretty much every other country in the world sets a limit for what they can charge.

They also incur huge costs marketing their products, which to me is assinine. We need to have a better way to keep our doctors in touch with the latest drug breakthroughs than shiny fold-out brochures for the latest 5 penix pills.

The AMA, drug and insurance companies also spend bundles buying politicians votes to push their adgendas through the conressional committees. You can fucking bet these costs are also passed on to us.

Basically, I feel that the government needs to step in and put ceilings on what doctors and pharmacy compaies can charge. This will never happen because of the gagillion dollar lobbies.

[Voronwë]

there are over 800 pharmaceutical industry lobbyists in Washington. That is more than 1 per senator/representative!

[kyoukan]

This shit cracks me up.

Want to know what happens to me in the US if I become ill, or injured?

I die.

I have no health insurance, I cannot afford it. I cannot even afford auto insurance. So I would have to take the city bus to the hospital to get treatment anyways. (if the city even has a bus system)
I make minimum wage, plus tips (though taxed on both of course)...which isn't enough to afford those things.

Listening to someone (who can afford to play the private sector's insurance game) argue that socialized health care is stupid and our current system is great, really disturbs me.

So much for your fellow man, eh?

Most fundies like Adex only pay lip service to their faith and morality. When it comes to any actual charity or anything that would really benefit society that might come out of their pocket, they scoff and say that other people don't deserve it. It's no different than any other argument he's ever made on this forum. He's an intolerant bigot with almost no understanding on how the world works outside his upper middle class texas community. You are surprised?

[Legenae]

Waiting 8 hours to see a doctor would suck - but they do eventually see one, I guess.

Um, our taxes do go to our health care, and other social programs. Not sure what the rate is. I'll look it up.

*edit*

Found this link: http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Healt ... da_KP.html

It's dated 1999, but it may still help with understanding Canadian health care. It's a long read though (I haven't read it all yet). but it compares U.S. health care to Canadian health care.

We wait 8+ hours here in Canada for emergency rooms. Mind you a doctors appointment itself is only what, down to a 2 hour wait right now in the clinics? Even after you've booked an appointment (oh oh we're running behind). My friend's GF broke her arm last week and waited almost 9 hours in emergency for anyone to get to her. I had another staff member last year who waited 12 hours while half of her body was 'numb' and she couldn't walk because of her leg not responding.

Now I'm not saying we're the worst around, but we do need to fix quite a few things with our healthcare system.

I've had to wait several hours in emergency rooms too. Oh, I'm not saying our (Canadian) health care is without flaws. I just prefer our health care to the U.S. And I think it was rather silly of Adex to post on issues he knows nothing about.

[Adex_Xeda]

Truant,

Your perspective is very interesting.

Following your reasoning it is ok for you rob your neighbor at gunpoint taking their money with the justification that you'll use it on your medical bills.

The government is financed out or your and my pocket. Any demand you place on the government is a demand you place on your neighbors. Be justified in your demands.

I work like crazy for what I earn. What right do you claim for forcibly taking the pay I earn?

I worked my ass off forsaking an early start at life so I could pay and struggle through a college degree. This has given me a chance to earn more than minimum wages. I worked the opportunity America provides so that I can take care of myself. I am responsible for me. I am responsible for my medical bills.


If you want to fight reckless charges and over the top insurance problems then I'm your ally.

If you want to use the government as a gun to my head to take my money for something that is your responsiblity then I can't stand with you.

[Adex_Xeda]

I've had to wait several hours in emergency rooms too. Oh, I'm not saying our (Canadian) health care is without flaws. I just prefer our health care to the U.S. And I think it was rather silly of Adex to post on issues he knows nothing about.

If you were to apply this rule to everyone on this board the current events forum would have few posts.


You are an authority on you. I am an authority on me. We both are experts in living this world. We both are qualified to discuss our world.

[Chmee]

Most fundies like Adex only pay lip service to their faith and morality. When it comes to any actual charity or anything that would really benefit society that might come out of their pocket, they scoff and say that other people don't deserve it. It's no different than any other argument he's ever made on this forum. He's an intolerant bigot with almost no understanding on how the world works outside his upper middle class texas community. You are surprised?

Because of course the only source of charity is through the benevolent hand of government.

[kyoukan]

who else is going to handle universal health care for an entire country? are you mentally retarded? you would do a lot better keeping your libertarian whining away from me.

[Legenae]

I've had to wait several hours in emergency rooms too. Oh, I'm not saying our (Canadian) health care is without flaws. I just prefer our health care to the U.S. And I think it was rather silly of Adex to post on issues he knows nothing about.

If you were to apply this rule to everyone on this board the current events forum would have few posts.


You are an authority on you. I am an authority on me. We both are experts in living this world. We both are qualified to discuss our world.

Health care in Canada is not in "your world." You are not Canadian, you don't live in Canada. Yet you presume to know how we Canadians feel about our own health care or how our health care works, when in fact, you know nothing.