An under reported perspective.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 28, 2004, 10:34 am

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04179/337752.stm

An under reported perspective.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 28, 2004, 10:52 am

Spinner and Faiola did not provide any evidence for why they thought the brutal murder was "almost certain to broaden opposition ..."

It's examples like this that sum up the reason many people feel much of the media is biased. It's very subtle, but very effective.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 28, 2004, 11:54 am

The P-G isn't exactly a pillar of journalistic integrity. The tri-state area, which in Pittsburgh means Ohio, WVA, and PA, has a lot of citizens in the service. Obviously, they want to hear good things, and not a bunch of liberal crap

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » June 28, 2004, 8:42 pm

It's interesting how conspicuously absent kyoukan is from commenting on this article. I know you read all these threads

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 28, 2004, 9:03 pm

I distrust authors that haven't mastered subject verb agreement...

I found it rambling and pointless...the next to last paragraph is actually on point...but wtf does that have to do with any of the rest?...

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 28, 2004, 9:08 pm

Rekaar. wrote:It's interesting how conspicuously absent kyoukan is from commenting on this article. I know you read all these threads

are you just baiting me? why would I give a flying shit about some jessica lynch 2.0 puff piece article that does nothing to change the situation but allow some flag waving white trash to strain their arms by patting themselves on the back? the article changes nothing about the fact that the united states and it's armed forces are nothing more than international bullies and terrorists that kill civilians and damage property at their whim. if you want me to be impressed, try conforming to international law and stop pissing on the accords of the geneva convention.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 28, 2004, 9:31 pm

kyoukan wrote:
Rekaar. wrote:It's interesting how conspicuously absent kyoukan is from commenting on this article. I know you read all these threads
are you just baiting me? why would I give a flying shit about some jessica lynch 2.0 puff piece article that does nothing to change the situation but allow some flag waving white trash to strain their arms by patting themselves on the back? the article changes nothing about the fact that the united states and it's armed forces are nothing more than international bullies and terrorists that kill civilians and damage property at their whim. if you want to be impressed, try conforming to international law and stop pissing on the accords of the geneva convention.

I guess if you grow up in a country that didn't have to fight for it's independance you just can't grasp the necessary sacrifices one must make to keep it. You got it made up there. It's so damned cold no one cares to take you over. You aren't a major player in any aspect of the world, therefore no one cares to try and hurt you. You have nothing people want. You take no chances, you have no excessive gains. You are our hemispheres version of France to an even lesser extent. You just don't know. You just don't know. You are so cute. It's like watching my cat attack the red laser light pen on the wall and carpet.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » June 28, 2004, 9:46 pm

I guess if you grow up in a country that didn't have to fight for it's independance you just can't grasp the necessary sacrifices one must make to keep it.

So you're saying an action that happened 230 years ago lets you grasp, personally, something that Kyoukan cannot just because she was born in another country? Neither of you have direct experience with living during the Revolution, neither of you fought in battles, neither of you bled on our ground. How do you grasp the necessary sacrifices that Kyoukan can't?

You aren't a major player in any aspect of the world, therefore no one cares to try and hurt you.

Not true. The Famous Hockey War of 2015 is just around the corner. It is in the Bible, under Revelations, Chapter 6. "There shalt be the great war of hockey players before The End, and it shall be a Great Fistfight. Then the Lord surveyed the wreckage he was committing to the Earth, and heard the smallest whimper. And the Lord said unto Midnyte, Thou shalt shut the hell upeth now."

If I recall correctly, the only thing I remember about Canada in the news directly related to the United States and the war of (oops, I mean on.) terrorism was when our troops bombed Canadian marines into the ground. That's enough personal experience right there to turn me off to any US troops. If Canada accidently bombed US soldiers, there would have been hell to pay. That's enough personal experience for me and the war on terror. She doesn't need anymore but that.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » June 28, 2004, 9:51 pm

Isn't Canada is one of only two nations to successfully invade the US and burn the capital to the ground?

I know that Midnyte has served in the Revolutionary War, Civil War, both World Wars, Korea, and Vietnam, so please don't question his understanding of fighting for ones country. With his distinguished military career, he has the right to judge total strangers' experience (especially Canadians!).

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 28, 2004, 10:02 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I guess if you grow up in a country that didn't have to fight for it's independance you just can't grasp the necessary sacrifices one must make to keep it. You got it made up there. It's so damned cold no one cares to take you over. You aren't a major player in any aspect of the world, therefore no one cares to try and hurt you. You have nothing people want. You take no chances, you have no excessive gains. You are our hemispheres version of France to an even lesser extent. You just don't know. You just don't know. You are so cute. It's like watching my cat attack the red laser light pen on the wall and carpet.

If stupidity has a barrier like sound has a barrier, you just broke it. Teh right stuff!

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 28, 2004, 10:05 pm

Just remember Mid, a canadian burnt the White House down.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 28, 2004, 10:06 pm

yeah I think I just heard a retarded boom.

DUUURRRRRR

Canada successfully defended her independence from the imperialist united states during the war of 1812.

54-40 or fight, bitches! how does it feel to be sent packing like a bunch of fucking pussies?!

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » June 28, 2004, 10:09 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
I guess if you grow up in a country that didn't have to fight for it's independance you just can't grasp the necessary sacrifices one must make to keep it.

you are kidding right? LOL

Thess · Post by **Thess** » June 28, 2004, 10:11 pm

If anything, being born in america and raised has led me to believe that I should move to Canada.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 28, 2004, 10:21 pm

Lalanae wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
I guess if you grow up in a country that didn't have to fight for it's independance you just can't grasp the necessary sacrifices one must make to keep it.
you are kidding right? LOL

Not really. Canada is an insignificant country. It's a bit player. It's not a super power like the US, so they aren't targetted, so the people don't know the pressures of being number one. It ain't easy being the top of the food chain. Everyone wants to take you down. Ask Bill Gates, Clinton, Bush, Donald Trump, Martha Stewart, Kobe, Phil Jackson, The Yakees, etc.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 28, 2004, 10:28 pm

Ill remember that the next time the US is screaming for help. Ill throw those words right back at your big fucking empty head.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 28, 2004, 10:44 pm

Lynks wrote:Ill remember that the next time the US is screaming for help. Ill throw those words right back at your big fucking empty head.

It won't be me asking for help. Also it isn't a put down on Canada. I was just stating a fact. Canada isn't number one. They aren't a leader in the world. They are a contributor. They are Roxio to the US being Microsoft.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » June 28, 2004, 11:12 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:the US being Microsoft.

That explains your airport security.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » June 28, 2004, 11:25 pm

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 28, 2004, 11:35 pm

Anyone else getting tired of Adex posting opinion articles and purporting them as credible evidence/fact? I know I am.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » June 28, 2004, 11:41 pm

I don't know - his undercovered articles such as - Pictures we all should see. An Iraqi Speaks Out, For those of you who didn't follow the news during Clinton, An under reported perspective, have led me to stop reading his posts until I see a significant amount of replies.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 28, 2004, 11:42 pm

Niffoni wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:the US being Microsoft.
That explains your airport security.

lmao

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 28, 2004, 11:45 pm

Midnyte responded. Too bad I have that fuckstick on ignore.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » June 28, 2004, 11:48 pm

He quoted Niffoni and said the most well thought out, most intelligent post I've ever seen him post.

It was - lmao

Mak · Post by **Mak** » June 28, 2004, 11:58 pm

Yeah, 'cause God forbid you read a different viewpoint. I read 95,000 posts of rabid Bush hating every day, but Adex's examples are so out of line. Who the fuck made you the credibility expert?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 29, 2004, 12:14 am

1. Canada never existed as a nation when out Capital was hit by a cowardly attack

2. Canada did something, they made pop country chicks, arms for the Space Shuttle, Bill Shatner, and Michael J. Fox!

3. I like cake more than pie

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » June 29, 2004, 12:22 am

Kylere wrote:3. I like cake more than pie

Thus your opinion means nothing.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 29, 2004, 12:27 am

Kylere wrote:1. Canada never existed as a nation when out Capital was hit by a cowardly attack

Cowardly attack? How so? We went in and torched the fucking place while you were fighting up north. Nothing cowardly about that.

Ohhh, nevermind, I forgot that ANY attack on US soil is automatically called a cowardly attack. Carry on.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 29, 2004, 9:44 am

I still cant believe two allies that are as close as Canada and the US still bitch at each other.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 29, 2004, 9:56 am

Kylere wrote:3. I like cake more than pie

You have gone too far you american scum!

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 29, 2004, 10:04 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lalanae wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
I guess if you grow up in a country that didn't have to fight for it's independance you just can't grasp the necessary sacrifices one must make to keep it.
you are kidding right? LOL
Not really. Canada is an insignificant country. It's a bit player. It's not a super power like the US, so they aren't targetted, so the people don't know the pressures of being number one. It ain't easy being the top of the food chain. Everyone wants to take you down. Ask Bill Gates, Clinton, Bush, Donald Trump, Martha Stewart, Kobe, Phil Jackson, The Yakees, etc.

They are not targetted because their country has better policies. The reason WE ARE TARGETTED is because we piss on the globe, and usually the only time we invade/aid/defendourselvesonforeignsoil is when there is some type of monetary compensation in it for us. I love my country and I am tired of our potential being pissed away.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 29, 2004, 10:20 am

Krimson Klaw wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lalanae wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
I guess if you grow up in a country that didn't have to fight for it's independance you just can't grasp the necessary sacrifices one must make to keep it.
you are kidding right? LOL
Not really. Canada is an insignificant country. It's a bit player. It's not a super power like the US, so they aren't targetted, so the people don't know the pressures of being number one. It ain't easy being the top of the food chain. Everyone wants to take you down. Ask Bill Gates, Clinton, Bush, Donald Trump, Martha Stewart, Kobe, Phil Jackson, The Yakees, etc.
They are not targetted because their country has better policies. The reason WE ARE TARGETTED is because we piss on the globe, and usually the only time we invade/aid/defendourselvesonforeignsoil is when there is some type of monetary compensation in it for us. I love my country and I am tired of our potential being pissed away.

Exactly. People don't hate the US because they hate freedom or democracy. Most people enjoy the domestic US. You have some problems but so does everyone else. They hate the US because of it's foreign policies.

Well that and country music.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 29, 2004, 10:39 am

Karae wrote:Anyone else getting tired of Adex posting opinion articles and purporting them as credible evidence/fact? I know I am.

I simply post them as opinion articles. Something you can read, consider, and then move on.

As I read during my morning news cycle, if something seems interesting or not reported, I post it here just for those of us who like to get a broad sampling of what's out there.

As far as my choice of sources? I post it articles from all over the spectrum, from liberal bulwarks, to conservative magizines, to city newspapers.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » June 29, 2004, 11:00 am

Thess wrote:If anything, being born in america and raised has led me to believe that I should move to Canada.

I will foot the plane ticket for any asshat that feels this way. Only obligation you have is to never come back.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » June 29, 2004, 11:23 am

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Thess wrote:If anything, being born in america and raised has led me to believe that I should move to Canada.
I will foot the plane ticket for any asshat that feels this way. Only obligation you have is to never come back.

I wouldn't see that as a serious concern, seems like the only Americans that ever live out of that cess pit and return are those in occupations that don't exist elsewhere.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 29, 2004, 11:26 am

Zaelath wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Thess wrote:If anything, being born in america and raised has led me to believe that I should move to Canada.
I will foot the plane ticket for any asshat that feels this way. Only obligation you have is to never come back.
I wouldn't see that as a serious concern, seems like the only Americans that ever live out of that cess pit and return are those in occupations that don't exist elsewhere.

You have to be fucking kidding me?

Thess · Post by **Thess** » June 29, 2004, 3:37 pm

I'll explain what I meant by my statement.

I believe that the constitution was an amazingly wrote and well thought out plan for a government. The foresight the founders of our country had was absolutely amazing.

That said - While they did try to catch corruption with the system of checks and balances, one main factor I feel they missed was that people will try to get around any system in place to have an advantage.

I hate how corrupted every branch of government we have is, particularly congress - within a political party you have to 'play by the rules' to get anything accomplished - that being, you vote for me, I'll vote for you type mentallity. Also it annoys me that they tack several bills with all sorts of different issues on them, one recent bill being - money for defense + fcc fines higher.

I do not see this sort of thing changing anytime soon - or even a third party coming into effect - this agrivates me.

So basically growing up, living in america, seeing our politics - makes me want to go somewhere else. I do love america, and I think we truely can make a difference and help our citizens as well as other countries.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 29, 2004, 3:44 pm

The ability to attach unrelated riders is one of the fucking stupidest things we ever let those assholes in DC have. Right along with the ability to determine their own salaries.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 29, 2004, 4:30 pm

masteen wrote:The ability to attach unrelated riders is one of the fucking stupidest things we ever let those assholes in DC have. Right along with the ability to determine their own salaries.

Couldn't agree more. Every bill should be voted on independantly.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » June 29, 2004, 5:35 pm

kyoukan wrote:
Rekaar. wrote:It's interesting how conspicuously absent kyoukan is from commenting on this article. I know you read all these threads
are you just baiting me? why would I give a flying shit about some jessica lynch 2.0 puff piece article that does nothing to change the situation but allow some flag waving white trash to strain their arms by patting themselves on the back? the article changes nothing about the fact that the united states and it's armed forces are nothing more than international bullies and terrorists that kill civilians and damage property at their whim. if you want me to be impressed, try conforming to international law and stop pissing on the accords of the geneva convention.

If baiting you means I'm looking for a rational thought pattern and an admission that your views are incomplete, then yes. You act as if you personally have all the information and judge an opposing viewpoint through emotion clouded eyes as it suits your feelings.

You don't know everything. No one that ever finds this board will even be able to pretend to have all the facts. The challenge with facts is they can be spun to mean whatever you want them to mean. The crux of your perspective though, Kyoukan, seems to be an outright bitterness toward the US. What it really stems from only you know. Nothing I ever say or do will affect your disrespect for your neighbors.

As to the bully/war crimes/Bushisaterrorist thing, an analogy. You're a mother and your 5 year old daughter sees a cartoon in which a child paints a beautiful mural as a birthday present to his mother. Seeing the cartoon mother very happy about the present, your child goes digging for her crayons and proceeds to "paint" all over your foyer as a present to you. You come home and, having a different idea as to what a foyer should look like, are judgmental and angry...and you discipline (in whatever way) your 5 year old. You didn't ask why she did it.

How do you feel upon finding out the reasoning? Did the child do wrong? Is such a thing objective or subjective? I would contend it's purely subjective, and since the child's heart was in the right place, there was no "crime" committed.

In similar fashion you believe no nation should ever do anything outside of UN cooperation, despite any sense of urgency that may exist or the corruption that was obviously tainting the UN in the Iraq situation. You believe all international action should be preceeded by a vote. Well for me, I disagree. We need to do what we need to do. We have to act on time sensitive information when we have it, or we are being negligent in our role.

If the director of the CIA says there is a terrorist cell planning to blow up the WTC and that he's sure of it, do we question it and form a committee to make sure he's right, or do we act? If we are told there is a plot to set off a nuclear bomb in Ontario and it is being manufactured in Iraq should we take an opinion poll?

If it turns out the information was wrong, did we do the right thing in being proactive?

If you truly believe the President invaded Iraq just because he likes to get people killed and for imperialistic goals...well, there isn't much hope you'll ever open your mind up. If however you can concede that maybe, just maybe, he went into Iraq on good intentions because based on the information he had it was the right thing to do, we may be able to save you yet

Is my reasoning flawed? Forgive me the analogy isn't the best, but you get the point if getting the point is what you want to do!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 29, 2004, 5:55 pm

Rekaar. wrote:
kyoukan wrote:
Rekaar. wrote:It's interesting how conspicuously absent kyoukan is from commenting on this article. I know you read all these threads
are you just baiting me? why would I give a flying shit about some jessica lynch 2.0 puff piece article that does nothing to change the situation but allow some flag waving white trash to strain their arms by patting themselves on the back? the article changes nothing about the fact that the united states and it's armed forces are nothing more than international bullies and terrorists that kill civilians and damage property at their whim. if you want me to be impressed, try conforming to international law and stop pissing on the accords of the geneva convention.
If baiting you means I'm looking for a rational thought pattern and an admission that your views are incomplete, then yes. You act as if you personally have all the information and judge an opposing viewpoint through emotion clouded eyes as it suits your feelings.

You don't know everything. No one that ever finds this board will even be able to pretend to have all the facts. The challenge with facts is they can be spun to mean whatever you want them to mean. The crux of your perspective though, Kyoukan, seems to be an outright bitterness toward the US. What it really stems from only you know. Nothing I ever say or do will affect your disrespect for your neighbors.

As to the bully/war crimes/Bushisaterrorist thing, an analogy. You're a mother and your 5 year old daughter sees a cartoon in which a child paints a beautiful mural as a birthday present to his mother. Seeing the cartoon mother very happy about the present, your child goes digging for her crayons and proceeds to "paint" all over your foyer as a present to you. You come home and, having a different idea as to what a foyer should look like, are judgmental and angry...and you discipline (in whatever way) your 5 year old. You didn't ask why she did it.

How do you feel upon finding out the reasoning? Did the child do wrong? Is such a thing objective or subjective? I would contend it's purely subjective, and since the child's heart was in the right place, there was no "crime" committed.

In similar fashion you believe no nation should ever do anything outside of UN cooperation, despite any sense of urgency that may exist or the corruption that was obviously tainting the UN in the Iraq situation. You believe all international action should be preceeded by a vote. Well for me, I disagree. We need to do what we need to do. We have to act on time sensitive information when we have it, or we are being negligent in our role.

If the director of the CIA says there is a terrorist cell planning to blow up the WTC and that he's sure of it, do we question it and form a committee to make sure he's right, or do we act? If we are told there is a plot to set off a nuclear bomb in Ontario and it is being manufactured in Iraq should we take an opinion poll?

If it turns out the information was wrong, did we do the right thing in being proactive?

If you truly believe the President invaded Iraq just because he likes to get people killed and for imperialistic goals...well, there isn't much hope you'll ever open your mind up. If however you can concede that maybe, just maybe, he went into Iraq on good intentions because based on the information he had it was the right thing to do, we may be able to save you yet

Is my reasoning flawed? Forgive me the analogy isn't the best, but you get the point if getting the point is what you want to do!

Maybe being gay isn't all that bad, cause I'm feeling a little man love for teh Rekaar right now. I try and write like that, but it never quite comes out that well. Kudos my friend, kudos.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 29, 2004, 5:57 pm

I like how Rekaar calls Bush a child

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 29, 2004, 6:00 pm

I believe the President invaded Iraq so he and his cronies can continue becoming richer and that he doesn't give a flying fuck for the dead. No, I don't think he wanted to get them dead, but I think that, to him, they're as insignificant as a bug he might step on while walking to the bank.

The administration has never produced any credible evidence to support this war so I must conclude they never had any and that this war is a contrivance made purely for the financial gain of a few very greedy men.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 29, 2004, 6:45 pm

Well Karae if you're one to act on only the best of evidence.

What credible evidence do you rely on to support your claim that "the President invaded Iraq so he and his cronies can continue becoming richer and that he doesn't give a flying fuck for the dead." ?

How is this opinion built? What amount and level of credible evidence did you use before you came to this conclusion? Did you just look at the situation and go with your gut? Did you not know all the facts but used your best judgement when choosing this political stance?

Is credible evidence only required of conservative claims?

I don't discount that you read something convincing. I simply wish to share in the reading of such dynamite stuff.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 29, 2004, 7:01 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Is credible evidence only required of conservative claims?

How about only when going to a war that, to date, has caused the deaths of 11,000+ people and will assuredly kill more. Are you honestly so stupid as to suggest that this is on the same level as my claim?

My evidence is that he absolutely stands to gain financially from this war through his associations with Halliburton and The Carlyle Group and that he lied about every reason he gave for the war before invading. There are no WMD, Iraq is not tied to al-Qaeda, and the Iraqi people don't want us there.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » June 29, 2004, 7:25 pm

Adex - The demander of evidence, but too busy to take time from his own life to provide his own.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 30, 2004, 11:39 am

Here's what I'm trying to say.

Anytime I make a statement you guys demand I back it up.

Well, Karae has said a whopper of a statement.

I'd like the favor returned.

Where's this damming evidence that shows that Bush is profitting personally from all of this.

Where's the evidence that this was his prime reason for drumming up a war?

Show me how you know that he doesn't give a damn for the soldiers who've died? Has he said something to that effect? Where is the bold evidence to back up the bold claim?

Thess · Post by **Thess** » June 30, 2004, 1:01 pm

Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton (this is pretty much common knowledge)
http://www.halliburton.com/news/archive ... 020100.jsp

Bush and Carlyle group - I did a google search for Bush and Carlyle group - I just picked 1/65,000 to link.

http://www.bushwatch.com/bushcarlyle.htm

I am sure you know that no wmd's have been found - however, we have found gases, that was given to Iraq during the 80's under Reagan.

Really all of this information is easy to find, I can't believe I'm even wasting my time posting this. You can also find it by going to f9/11, they link all of this together. Regardless of how you feel about Michael Moore, he does a pretty good job of linking it all together.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » June 30, 2004, 1:51 pm

*former* CEO who divested most of his holdings and what few he had left he rerouted profits to charity.

I'll I agree with you he needed to divest everything to take the VP job.

I could do what you guys do all the time and refuse to even look at your bushwatch site and write it off as not credible. (But I'm not that kind of guy and I won't do that)

I could then next proceed to claim that the evidence you cite is not enough to be considered *credible* setting the crediblity level up to arbitrarily astronomical levels.

And if that didn't work I could just start personally attacking how you seem blind, dumb, ignorant, kerry cattle, etc.

After the personal attacks and emotional tantrum I could go right back to claiming the point you tried to make was unestablished and not backed up by fact.

I get this all the time from some people here.

Could you see that after a while it would get frustrating?

Truant, can you see why I'm slow to start doing a ton of research knowing that it is to be presented to those with immutable opinions?

BUT, back to your point. Yes I agree, Cheney is close enough to his former company that if he wasn't an honest man, he would be able to take advantage of his current position to profit himself. Has he been dishonest? Did he push an Iraq war just to bump up Haliburton? That's debatable. I don't think so. Does he have the necessary influence? Sadly yes.

You have a valid suspicion Karae.

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Thess · Post by **Thess** » June 30, 2004, 2:04 pm

I know the Bushwatch site can't be considered credible, I realised how you could twist it, and appreciate that you didn't - I just didn't feel like sorting through 62,100 results for the google search Bush Carlyle group.