Bush announces acceleration of $15billion AIDS Drug program

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 24, 2004, 5:40 pm

masteen wrote:There you run into the problem with institutionalized ignorance: Their governments don't want them to know stuff. The more backwater and superstitituous the people are, the easier their leaders can manipulate them.

I still think my way is going to be substantially faster than biding time until they independently develop modern virology...I'll grant it will be hard, expensive, and never 100% successful...But it will be less expensive than waiting around and starting the process in 20 more years...

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 24, 2004, 6:37 pm

I agree with Kylere here. The money would be better spent on pure R&D.

This seems like mostly PR and drug company subsidization to me. It will do some good and relieve some suffering but the bottom line is that its a bandaid.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 24, 2004, 7:16 pm

Arborealus wrote:You gonna go show em how to use condoms correctly and pass them out? And you keep saying they hump everything that moves...You suspect they are having more sex than we are?....I think there is a fairly uniform rate of humping globally...we all do it as much as possible...

No actually african countries have sex something on the order of 3-5x more often than western nations. in most african countries, women aren't considered to be much more than animals, only they don't have the benefits of men looking out for their "virtue" like poor middle eastern countries. so in other words, women get raped a lot. and the women that don't get raped are pretty much raised to believe they are nothing but baby machines that exist merely as a warm place for men to put their penises. the mortality isnt that great either which leads to even more sex.

indira gandhi once said (paraphrasing) that there is no greater birth control than a population with full stomachs and a job to go to. the same thing went on in india until they got their famine and economy issues straightened out. africans aren't going to stop fornicating and spreading aids around until they have a reason to stop. the population, in general, is deeply superstitious, they are raised to not believe anything a white person tells them (understandable), but mainly the problem is they keep having sex all the time without any protection. this isn't going to change unless the nature of africa itself changes.

if you are trying to tackle any issue no matter how small or large, it makes sense to solve the problem first before trying to repair the damage it's doing. spending 15 billion dollars on prolonging the lives of HIV positive people and people with AIDS in africa is just going to give them more time to infect other people with the virus before ultimately dying. it's just throwing good money after bad.

although it seems the bush administration is hell bent on not spending a single dollar properly, so it isn't too surprising.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 24, 2004, 8:00 pm

It's not our job to fix the whole worlds problems. Africa doesn't pose a threat to us right now, so we won't be going in and trying to fix their system. We are however, continuing our long history of lending a helping hand in this situation. Why don't you praise it and welcome it and kindly stfu you ungrateful cunt.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 24, 2004, 9:26 pm

president bush could announce his plan to heat the white house by burning $50 bills he took out of the federal reserve and you would be falling all over yourself to be the first to drool all over his cock about what a great decision it was, so why are you even wasting more bandwidth by posting about it? nobody cares about your stupid fucking idiot white trash opinion, you uneducated twat, other than to show disdain about what a lost cause you are. please kill yourself before you continue to taint the planet further with your stupid.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 24, 2004, 9:29 pm

Because it's a waste of 15 BILLION DOLLARS. Done because he wants to appear magnanamous and/or suck up to the drug companies. Fuck that shit.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 24, 2004, 9:33 pm

kyoukan wrote:president bush could announce his plan to heat the white house by burning $50 bills he took out of the federal reserve and you would be falling all over yourself to be the first to drool all over his cock about what a great decision it was, so why are you even wasting more bandwidth by posting about it? nobody cares about your stupid fucking idiot white trash opinion, you uneducated twat, other than to show disdain about what a lost cause you are. please kill yourself before you continue to taint the planet further with your stupid.

Thank you for continuing to prove to the others what a great contributer you are to the board.

Yes of course, burning $50 bills sure does make OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of sense. ROFL. You are too funny.

Uneducated? Bachelors Degree in Business Management. Sorry.

Kill myself? Very classy babe. Of course callign you a cunt wasn't eiuther, but I figured it would get your ire up and it worked. You are very predictable. Most unintelligent people are.

Kiss my ass Kyo. Kiss it.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 24, 2004, 9:36 pm

Haha so you are an MBA? That explains a lot.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 24, 2004, 9:38 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Uneducated? Bachelors Degree in Business Management. Sorry.

Heh, that doesn't mean shit. I have a friend with one of those...he works with a cash register for a living.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 24, 2004, 9:56 pm

Lynks wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Uneducated? Bachelors Degree in Business Management. Sorry.
Heh, that doesn't mean shit. I have a friend with one of those...he works with a cash register for a living.

Wow. Neat for your friend. The having the degree doesn't guarantee you a job, thats for sure. It gives you an oppotunity to become a more well rounded individual with the basic ideas to enter into the business world.

I may not be intelligent as profound as the likes of Kyo and Kelshara though. LOL

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 24, 2004, 10:00 pm

yes I'm sure your MBA from big steve's school of business and dry cleaning really helps you a lot in getting those pizzas out on time, you stupid fucking bumpkin. I'm in awe of your intelligence and ability to articulate yourself.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 24, 2004, 10:05 pm

kyoukan wrote:yes I'm sure your MBA from big steve's school of business and dry cleaning really helps you a lot in getting those pizzas out on time, you stupid fucking bumpkin. I'm in awe of your intelligence and ability to articulate yourself.

uh-huh

or I got it from here http://www.wilkes.edu/

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 24, 2004, 10:28 pm

Ohhh MBA's those are the people that spend 175k on Macintosh Software to replace what was being done on all Windows Machines using MS Access that we already owned, without knowing that Mac Software and Windows software were two different things.

Fah High School kids with talent are more reliable, responsible and capable than most of the MBA's I have met.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 24, 2004, 11:02 pm

Kylere wrote:Ohhh MBA's those are the people that spend 175k on Macintosh Software to replace what was being done on all Windows Machines using MS Access that we already owned, without knowing that Mac Software and Windows software were two different things.

Fah High School kids with talent are more reliable, responsible and capable than most of the MBA's I have met.

Yuck. Mac is teh debil. Although I still think the whole idea of risq is really cool. But I guess we have outgrown the need for such a thing with the power of computers nowadays.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 24, 2004, 11:58 pm

kyoukan wrote:president bush could announce his plan to heat the white house by burning $50 bills he took out of the federal reserve and you would be falling all over yourself to be the first to drool all over his cock about what a great decision it was, so why are you even wasting more bandwidth by posting about it? nobody cares about your stupid fucking idiot white trash opinion, you uneducated twat, other than to show disdain about what a lost cause you are. please kill yourself before you continue to taint the planet further with your stupid.

Look above are those references to sexual parts? Why yes they are and Kooky bitches at me?

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 25, 2004, 12:05 am

Do you show people your diploma when you give them their pizzas?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 25, 2004, 12:10 am

great job inspector cartalas. I was hoping to slip those passed your radar but I guess you are too attentive for me. now go look up context in the dictionary.

you slobbering ass tard.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » June 25, 2004, 12:51 am

Ironically, removing bush would prevent the transmission of some STDs.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 25, 2004, 3:54 am

Would you guys fuck off with the pizza shit.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 25, 2004, 8:17 am

Forthe wrote:Would you guys fuck off with the pizza shit.

Yeah that would be nice.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 25, 2004, 8:27 am

kyoukan wrote:great job inspector cartalas. I was hoping to slip those passed your radar but I guess you are too attentive for me. now go look up context in the dictionary.

you slobbering ass tard.

Dont you hate being proved a hipocrite?

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » June 25, 2004, 1:22 pm

Have to side with Kylere here - this money would be much better spent in researching a cure for AIDS instead of just pumping drugs into the problem...in reality all this is doing is putting a big ass bandaid over a fatal wound; in otherwords, pointless

This is nothing but a Bush tactic towards winning the white house this year...it's a shame we're going to waste this much money on a program that yes will probably save hundreds of thousands of lives, but in the end will only prolong the coming of a cure for hundreds of millions of lives living with AIDS

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 25, 2004, 2:00 pm

Yeah it sucks that we are trying to help those people over there. Fucking Americans.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 25, 2004, 2:18 pm

The whole point, Mid, is that this gesture WILL DO JACK SHIT TO FIX THE PROBLEM.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 25, 2004, 2:26 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Yeah it sucks that we are trying to help those people over there. Fucking Americans.

No it sucks that we are spending 15 billion out of ignorance rather than from intelligence. I can think of thousands of ways this money could be quickly and easily spent WITHOUT wasting it to provide a cheesy image boost, or several ways to spend it on AIDS and do the same, but this way, is the wrong way.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » June 25, 2004, 2:48 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Yeah it sucks that we are trying to help those people over there. Fucking Americans.

Yeah ok, how the fuck are we helping them? By letting them live longer so they can rape more 12 year old girls than Atokal and accelerate the spread of aids? KAY! It sure is a good thing you got some common sense a long with that MBA... NOT LOLOLOL

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » June 25, 2004, 4:41 pm

I'm really enjoying the game of no-wits going on between some of the conservatives. Watching them fight with eachother gives me hope that they might realize how fucking dumb a lot of them are.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 25, 2004, 7:00 pm

Forthe wrote:Would you guys fuck off with the pizza shit.

No.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 25, 2004, 9:13 pm

masteen wrote:The whole point, Mid, is that this gesture WILL DO JACK SHIT TO FIX THE PROBLEM.

The point is it's your opinion IT WILL DO JACK SHIT. I trust in the professionals opinion who got this thing to go down, rather than yours. I'm sure a few people will also become millionaires by pocketing some of this money, but millions in Africa will benefit. Hopefully the long-term outcome will be great for the future of Africa and its people.

There's that term again...."LONG-TERM". I know it's hard for some of you people. But try.

My first, selfish reaction, is one of disgust for this decision as well. When he first announced it a few years ago during a State of the Union speech, my gut reaction was that I want the money here to help us blah blah blah, this is nothing more than something to win the black acceptance, blah blah blah. But, then I looked beyond my selfish little world and saw that while the previous could be part of it, the people of Africa will benefit more than Bush, more than the scum who will pocket some of the money, etc.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 25, 2004, 9:29 pm

Ok genius, how will prolonging their lives help in the long run?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 25, 2004, 9:32 pm

so what about these people do you trust so blindly, as opposed to the GOP diplomats in the other thread who said that bush's foreign policy is terrible and he needs to go? what exactly makes you trust these ones so stupidly and completely refuse any sort of rational thinking on the other ones?

this question is mostly rhetorical btw, because you are a fucking dumbass.

I'm also wondering exactly what you think the benefits are of keeping african aids patients alive longer as opposed to using the money to fund more research for a cure?

this question is not rhetorical, but I still expect a dumbass response.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 25, 2004, 9:59 pm

one thing that it might let us do (not really posting from an informed opinion) is allow us to test treatment strategies on populations.

if that were occuring, i think it would be a good thing. I am somehwat suspicious though that we will be paying above market price for brand name drugs instead of using our buying power to leverage a good purchase price (hello Medicare Prescription Drug Plan).

aka as Masteen said, pork for the pharmaceutical industry.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 26, 2004, 12:16 am

kyoukan wrote:so what about these people do you trust so blindly, as opposed to the GOP diplomats in the other thread who said that bush's foreign policy is terrible and he needs to go? what exactly makes you trust these ones so stupidly and completely refuse any sort of rational thinking on the other ones?

this question is mostly rhetorical btw, because you are a fucking dumbass.

I'm also wondering exactly what you think the benefits are of keeping african aids patients alive longer as opposed to using the money to fund more research for a cure?

this question is not rhetorical, but I still expect a dumbass response.

Yes, I'm the dumbass. /sigh

Do you think that by doing this, somehow research for a cure for AIDS has stopped? Do you really think millions upon millions of dollars raised every year aren't helping keep the reasearch alive? Are you really this fucking stupid or just putting on a show?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 26, 2004, 1:20 am

didnt your mother ever tell not to answer a question with a question? or was she too busy sucking down viscount 100s and spending her government check at the bingo parlor? christ, do you still think you're going to get off that easy on this forum? answer the fucking question retard and quantify your reasons for why you think like you do. try it once and maybe you won't be such a fucking laughing stock.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » June 26, 2004, 3:20 am

this is just a giant desprate plee by bush to try and get homosexual votes

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 26, 2004, 7:28 pm

Are Viscount 100's a Candian smoke?

Umm Kyoukan, your tirade would impact an american more if you said "unfiltered Camels"

Truant · Post by **Truant** » June 26, 2004, 8:40 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
kyoukan wrote:so what about these people do you trust so blindly, as opposed to the GOP diplomats in the other thread who said that bush's foreign policy is terrible and he needs to go? what exactly makes you trust these ones so stupidly and completely refuse any sort of rational thinking on the other ones?

this question is mostly rhetorical btw, because you are a fucking dumbass.

I'm also wondering exactly what you think the benefits are of keeping african aids patients alive longer as opposed to using the money to fund more research for a cure?

this question is not rhetorical, but I still expect a dumbass response.
Yes, I'm the dumbass. /sigh

Do you think that by doing this, somehow research for a cure for AIDS has stopped? Do you really think millions upon millions of dollars raised every year aren't helping keep the reasearch alive? Are you really this fucking stupid or just putting on a show?

The point is, this is 15 billion dollars that will now not be used for AIDS research. Where it would probably be served better, (and where it was probably serving before but who knows).

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 26, 2004, 9:10 pm

My point is. Don't you think they already have enough money to fund what they are doing? All countries around the world are working around the clock trying to find a cure for ADIS. Just like they have been for cancer. Somethings you cannot cure FYI.

Both AIDS and Cancer have charity events daily. Millions upon millions being raised daily/weekly whatever. You can't think by duming more and more money that somehow will find a cure faster. They already have so much money to do their research.

Stop bitching. Use common sense a little before you take these ridiculous stances. Just because it's Buish proposing it doesn't mean you have to find something wrong with it.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 26, 2004, 10:50 pm

Umm Midnyte the following is fact.

The single best way to prevent further infection, and remove the health hazard of a disease is to CURE it, or develop an VACCINE.

Guess what the best way to spend money when this is your mission?

In RESEARCHING ONE OF THE ABOVE.

Read my fucking lips, this is PR and will do nothing more than line some pockets and help but a thousandth of those it could if spent wisely.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 26, 2004, 11:43 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:My point is. Don't you think they already have enough money to fund what they are doing? All countries around the world are working around the clock trying to find a cure for ADIS. Just like they have been for cancer. Somethings you cannot cure FYI.

It's great that you have blazed new trails in the curability of a virus compared with a metaplastic cell disorder like cancer and have come up with some sort of new evidence that HIV cannot be cured. that is definitely odd because it would be the only virus in the world known to be incurable, since it is an actual organism. but I will defer to your expert medical knowledge.

now are you going to answer my fucking question

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » June 27, 2004, 1:28 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:My point is. Don't you think they already have enough money to fund what they are doing? All countries around the world are working around the clock trying to find a cure for ADIS. Just like they have been for cancer. Somethings you cannot cure FYI.

Both AIDS and Cancer have charity events daily. Millions upon millions being raised daily/weekly whatever. You can't think by duming more and more money that somehow will find a cure faster. They already have so much money to do their research.

Stop bitching. Use common sense a little before you take these ridiculous stances. Just because it's Buish proposing it doesn't mean you have to find something wrong with it.

Are so so fucking stupid to think that all of that 'charity money' goes to actual research? I mean really, if my ass was paid 15 million fucking dollars, you had better bet your lazy ass I would have found a cure by now. This is a blatant waste of $$$. If you want results, you pay people who get that shit done.

That said, nobody has been able to do shit, so save your fucking money and buy chocolate bars for your local little league team.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » June 27, 2004, 2:04 am

In principle, spending $15B on AIDS treatment is a good, humane thing to do.

If my brother had AIDS, I'd spend everything I had just to give him 5 extra, healthy years. I wouldn't write him off as a waste of money because his death was inevitable. Chrissake, everyone's death is inevitable. Should we stop making antibiotics?

Unfortunately, in practice this particular Bush plan is first and foremost a $15B handout to American pharmaceuticals giants. Actually helping dying Africans is only an afterthought. The proof? Many AIDS drugs can be supplied to Africa for pennies on the dollar simply by buying generics out of India instead of paying retail for US drugs. In fact, we could double or triple the number of people we help if helping them was truly our first priority.

Either way, though, you folks who would write off anyone with AIDS because they can't be cured (yet) are really beginning to disturb me.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 27, 2004, 2:18 am

Well, you are seeing my conservative side when I weigh in on this. People have to change socially before these drugs can have any meaningful effect. The money would be best spent on research for a cure. People with aids who are not thinking selfishly will say the same thing. Getting to a cure will help a lot more people down the road than prolonging the lives of the terminally infected ever will.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 27, 2004, 3:06 am

Forthe wrote:Would you guys fuck off with the pizza shit.

I doubt that's going to happen Forthe.

Making fun of someone trying to make a buck isn't as funny as making fun of a lazy "nice" guy that sits on his ass who could probably benefit from delivering pizzas.

Physical shape, pound for pound, is funnier than someone's financial issues. Oh the hilarity!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 27, 2004, 10:42 am

kyoukan wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:My point is. Don't you think they already have enough money to fund what they are doing? All countries around the world are working around the clock trying to find a cure for ADIS. Just like they have been for cancer. Somethings you cannot cure FYI.
It's great that you have blazed new trails in the curability of a virus compared with a metaplastic cell disorder like cancer and have come up with some sort of new evidence that HIV cannot be cured. that is definitely odd because it would be the only virus in the world known to be incurable, since it is an actual organism. but I will defer to your expert medical knowledge.

now are you going to answer my fucking question

Hi Cunt /wave

Truant · Post by **Truant** » June 28, 2004, 11:58 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:My point is. Don't you think they already have enough money to fund what they are doing? All countries around the world are working around the clock trying to find a cure for ADIS. Just like they have been for cancer. Somethings you cannot cure FYI.

Both AIDS and Cancer have charity events daily. Millions upon millions being raised daily/weekly whatever. You can't think by duming more and more money that somehow will find a cure faster. They already have so much money to do their research.

Stop bitching. Use common sense a little before you take these ridiculous stances. Just because it's Buish proposing it doesn't mean you have to find something wrong with it.

Do you actually think there is some kind of bottle neck with AIDS/Cancer research? That there are millions of research dollars piling up because there are only x amount of researchers? Fine everyday millions upon millions are raised, and you know what...everyday new research groups are formed and need to be funded to test and develop new ideas for possible cures. There are millions of possibilities, and they ALL must be explored.

Cart, if you have nothing to add, then don't waste the space please.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 28, 2004, 12:09 pm

Mplor wrote:Either way, though, you folks who would write off anyone with AIDS because they can't be cured (yet) are really beginning to disturb me.

I didn't say we should write them off. I said that it would be better overall if instead of trying to prolong the lives of a couple thousand people w/ AIDS, we dump money into researching a vaccine/cure that will help everyone in the future.

Traz-KOE · Post by **Traz-KOE** » June 28, 2004, 3:57 pm

Mplor wrote:Ironically, removing bush would prevent the transmission of some STDs.

Bastard, you made me choke on a Dorito.

Most of my thoughts on this have already been covered at this point:

Money for AIDS - Good
$15B bandage - Good, but not as good as money for cure/vaccine research

I do wish, at least, that more of this money were going into prevention rather than treatment. Drugs to help prolong the lives of those infected are a good thing, don't get me wrong, but in terms of bringing a wolrdwide epidemic to a manageable level they are nearly meaningless.

One thing, though...in theory drugs *will* help decrease the spread of the disease, if indirectly- current AIDS drugs -are- effective in combatting the virus, however they cannot reach the centers of infection effectively (HIV builds up in the lymph system, and most drugs cannot reach the lymph nodes effectively), so even though the drugs are killing off HIV throughout the body there are always some viral cells left to reproduce and mutate (this leads to the eventual resistance to the drugs used to combat them).

The point, however, is that the drugs *do* lower the viral load outside of the lymphatic system, which in turn lowers the chance of transmission (fewer viral cells = lower probability that the virus will be transmitted). This is by no means an overly effective manner of preventing the spread of the disease, but it is a factor that can be considered by those arguing that drugs do nothing to slow the transmission rates of the disease.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 28, 2004, 5:13 pm

OK, Traz, riddle me this:
2 men, HIV+
One man gets drugs, has his viral load reduced by 50%, lives another 20 years.
One man gets no drugs lives 10 years.

Assuming both these guys continue to fornicate until the day they drop, can you conclusively say that the man receiving treatment will spread the disease less than the guy who dies 10 years sooner?

Traz-KOE · Post by **Traz-KOE** » June 28, 2004, 5:58 pm

Statistically there would be no difference, however you are making several assumptions:

-The viral load is constantly at 50% (Studies show that some HIV drugs, while effective, can reduce the viral load to near undetectable levels).
-The men share indentical sexual practices at identical rates with identical numbers of vulnerable (uninfected) partners (this is an unrealistic expectation; there are far too many variables to maintain any level of consistancy).
-Transmission rates adhere strictly to statistical probabilities (overall this is probably more or less the case, however with a small sample size there is a large probability of sampling error).

So, given your scenario I would surmise that there would be little to no difference in transmission rates.

However, that is not the point I am trying to make. Recall that I advocate prevention and research as well as treatment. A man who lives twice as long with treatment, who has a viral load that fluctuates, but remains low overall, who practices safe sex and/or constrains his selection of partners to those already infected with the virus will, statistically, have a lower transmission rate than one who does some or none of the above.

Additionally, consider a case using your scenario where a cure is found 10 years after the study begins. The man who has been receiving treatment would have, in that time, had half the chance of spreading the virus as the man who had not.

Remember that I do not claim this as a solitary method for slowing the spread of the virus, only that it is something to be taken into consideration when advocating against the use of treatment in this case.

Research plus education and prevention plus treatment is the course I advocate, and I believe that without all three there is a less than reasonable chance of managing this disease.