We are our own worst enemy.

[Adex_Xeda]

An opinion piece that reconsiders just who we fight.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common ... 17,00.html

[Kylere]

Any Aussies want to weigh in on the bias of this newssource?

[Arborealus]

Its op-ed not news...

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

People won't understand until it happens to them or someone they truly care about. Some people just lack the ability to see beyond their own surroundings.

[Kylere]

Rather than splitting hairs, is it a conservative paper, a liberal one, or a balanced one. Papers tend to write editiorials that reflect their overall bias.

[Adex_Xeda]

I clearly stated that is was an opinion piece.

A thought provoking one at that.

[vn_Tanc]

The writer's main beef is that "the liberal media" is claiming that the 911 commissions report that Saddam and Al-Qaeda weren't buddies blew a hole in the US administration's reasons for the Iraq war, yet Bush said last September that he knew there was no connection.
So the fucker obviously needs reminding the war started 6 months prior to that statement and at a time when no such admission was being made by the leaders of the US.
The AQ terrorists are barbarians by any civilised measure. But this writer is falling into the usual righty mindset of thinking that anyone who criticises the Bush regime automatically sides with his enemies. It's such infantile bullshit it makes me want to scream.
Can't we criticise both the actions of the Bush admin. AND the terrorists too?
Jesus.

[Kelshara]

heh you claim we (as in "us liberals") are one-sided.. so was that. Extremely so. Not thought provoking at all though, it is all regurgitated Fox News/Bush info.

[archeiron]

I clearly stated that is was an opinion piece.

A thought provoking one at that.

I understand the opinion offered by the editorial.

What bothers me is that an invasion in Iraq is just the sort of hostile act that will sway extremists in other places to commit terrorist acts against the US. Violence begets violence, etc. It also creates generational hatred that will not be repaired for decades. I often reflect that there aren't Middle East "solutions", so much as a just varieties of damage mitigation.

Aside from the damage control, I wonder at what the warmongering schism at home is doing to the American people. We certainly shouldn't be developing a taste for invading other countries (even "Terrorist States"™). I am afraid that many people here are starting to think that it is "ok" to invade other countries as long as the president says that he has a good reason.

[Adex_Xeda]

It's ok for an opinion piece to show a political leaning Kelshara.

The other threads we recently talked about dealt more with bias in straight news reporting.

[Adex_Xeda]

I am afraid that many people here are starting to think that it is "ok" to invade other countries as long as the president says that he has a good reason.

I do not include myself on such a list.

[Kelshara]

I wasn't thinking of those threads in particular, more the general comments that seems to come from conservatives like yourself.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I am afraid that many people here are starting to think that it is "ok" to invade other countries as long as the president says that he has a good reason.

I do not include myself on such a list.

Neither do I. It just so happens in the case of Iraq I didn't need much convincing it was a necessary thing to do.

[archeiron]

I am afraid that many people here are starting to think that it is "ok" to invade other countries as long as the president says that he has a good reason.

I do not include myself on such a list.

It wasn't a dig at anyone here (either you or Midnyte) just an observation of how easy it is to become desensitived to certain behaviour.

[Adex_Xeda]

Well Kel,

I think the liberal side of things is well represented on this board.

I make a point to link conservative articles more often because I figure you guys have already read the liberal ones.

[Keverian FireCry]

Some people just lack the ability to see beyond their own surroundings.

[archeiron]

Well Kel,

I think the liberal side of things is well represented on this board.

I make a point to link conservative articles more often because I figure you guys have already read the liberal ones.

Please continue to do so. It is appreciated.

[Xzion]

heh, that article sums up The Bush admins "with us or against us" philosophy
It is almost sick how "conservatives" hold such authoritarian viewpoints that they dont find it appropriate to question there government, such, such hipocracy.
Although its obviously a lie, the Bush admin claims they invaded Iraq to "liberate the iraqi people"
liberate them from what?
Well for one, they didnt have the right to question there government or leader, hence Saddam opened torture chambers, etc etc

Want to piss off the terrorist?, show them that were winning the "war on terror"? Well that starts at home.
Legalize gay marriages
Uncensor the media
Legalize drugs
take away all restrictions on abortion
show racial equality, kill predjutice towards homosexuals, or any other hatred towards blacks, hispanics, jews, muslims, etc, hatred that is imbedded in our nations heartland
Take away the patriot act, for its exsistance is proof that the Bush admin cowars to the terrorists feet, as they are willing to take away american freedoms and expand authoritarianism in the name of fear


Now, such ignorant, stupid americans are saying that its detrimental to critizise our government?
What am i missing, Midnyte or Adex, tell me, what am i missing?

[Lynks]

Legalize drugs

You're kidding me right? What drugs are you referring to?

[Xzion]

Legalize drugs

You're kidding me right? What drugs are you referring to?

All illegal drugs
Take them off the streets, put them in the hands of responsible companies that can be trusted to produce safe, relatively un harmful narcotics. Tax them.
More people are killed in Drug related crimes then by doing drugs themselves. If we legalize all narcotics, then obviously the crime rate will drop substantially, and the same minority who uses any narcotic for recreational purposes, will continue to do so, except in a manner that gives the government money, opposed to taking away billions and billions a year to fight the un winnable war on drugs
Of course you would put restrictions on where they can be used, such as in the privacy of ones home or at a private club, etc.

[Arborealus]

Legalize drugs

You're kidding me right? What drugs are you referring to?

All illegal drugs
Take them off the streets, put them in the hands of responsible companies that can be trusted to produce safe, relatively un harmful narcotics. Tax them.
More people are killed in Drug related crimes then by doing drugs themselves. If we legalize all narcotics, then obviously the crime rate will drop substantially, and the same minority who uses any narcotic for recreational purposes, will continue to do so, except in a manner that gives the government money, opposed to taking away billions and billions a year to fight the un winnable war on drugs
Of course you would put restrictions on where they can be used, such as in the privacy of ones home or at a private club, etc.

No no we must have a war on drugs! Cause that worked so well with alcohol...

It's funny that people don't see that the huge problem is not the use of drugs but the violence associated with organized crime smuggling them in to the country and warring with the police and rivals...

[Lynks]

But now others will start using drugs. I'm sure a lot of people chose not to do drugs because it is illegal. If it were to be legal, then your minority will quickly become a majority. You see, you're just subsituting one fault for another.

How do you know the crime rate will drop, people on drugs tend to do stupid things. Since more people are doing it, more stupid things will happen.

Edit to add: If I were to suggest legalizing drunk driving, do you think it would be a good thing, or a bad thing?

[Pahreyia]

Legalize drugs

You're kidding me right? What drugs are you referring to?

All illegal drugs
Take them off the streets, put them in the hands of responsible companies that can be trusted to produce safe, relatively un harmful narcotics. Tax them.
More people are killed in Drug related crimes then by doing drugs themselves. If we legalize all narcotics, then obviously the crime rate will drop substantially, and the same minority who uses any narcotic for recreational purposes, will continue to do so, except in a manner that gives the government money, opposed to taking away billions and billions a year to fight the un winnable war on drugs
Of course you would put restrictions on where they can be used, such as in the privacy of ones home or at a private club, etc.

I'm just curious which companies you think could manage that task. Because I can't think of one that would assume the civil or criminal liability of distribution or sales of marijuana, let alone something like cocaine or meth.

[Arborealus]

Legalize drugs

You're kidding me right? What drugs are you referring to?

All illegal drugs
Take them off the streets, put them in the hands of responsible companies that can be trusted to produce safe, relatively un harmful narcotics. Tax them.
More people are killed in Drug related crimes then by doing drugs themselves. If we legalize all narcotics, then obviously the crime rate will drop substantially, and the same minority who uses any narcotic for recreational purposes, will continue to do so, except in a manner that gives the government money, opposed to taking away billions and billions a year to fight the un winnable war on drugs
Of course you would put restrictions on where they can be used, such as in the privacy of ones home or at a private club, etc.

I'm just curious which companies you think could manage that task. Because I can't think of one that would assume the civil or criminal liability of distribution or sales of marijuana, let alone something like cocaine or meth.

I'm just curious to know when prohibition of a thing has resulted in lowered use....

In the last 20 years heroin marijuana and cocaine use have increased significantly...

Not to mention the cost of the violence associated with the smuggling...

[Lynks]

And making it legal would decrease it how?

[Arborealus]

And making it legal would decrease it how?

There was minimal violence associated with drugs prior to them being prhibited by law...Legalizing it removes the necessity of criminals as the sole source...I mean how much violence is associated with alcohol distribution?

The models are identical...addictive substance prohibited by law suddenly people are killing and dying trying to obtain it...following legalization almost immediately...nada...

[Xzion]

Legalize drugs

You're kidding me right? What drugs are you referring to?

All illegal drugs
Take them off the streets, put them in the hands of responsible companies that can be trusted to produce safe, relatively un harmful narcotics. Tax them.
More people are killed in Drug related crimes then by doing drugs themselves. If we legalize all narcotics, then obviously the crime rate will drop substantially, and the same minority who uses any narcotic for recreational purposes, will continue to do so, except in a manner that gives the government money, opposed to taking away billions and billions a year to fight the un winnable war on drugs
Of course you would put restrictions on where they can be used, such as in the privacy of ones home or at a private club, etc.

I'm just curious which companies you think could manage that task. Because I can't think of one that would assume the civil or criminal liability of distribution or sales of marijuana, let alone something like cocaine or meth.

Godamn, use your mind every once and a while.
The same unemployed drug dealers on the street, would create new companies, are unemployment rate would drop substantially, poverty would slightly decrease, are economy would boost, The crime rate would reduce by up to maybe 50%, our police officers would be engaged in important activities, such as solving murder cases, preventing corperate scandal, our government could save BILLIONS, which could go towards the deficit, stem cell research, and other important programs etc etc
Overall, less americans would fall victim to drug related crimes, less people would die by the use of narcotics, as several OD's are caused by dirty, unsafe drugs

all these things at the cost of maybe a 3-5% increase on the use of now-illigal narcotics (at the very most) Becouse people who want to do coke, dont stop themselves just becouse its illigal

[Lynks]

Sorry, my question was aimed towards the increase of drug use. Just wondering how making illegal drugs legal would decrease the use of drugs.

The way I see it, you just invite more people to do it, thus, increasing it greatly.

[Arborealus]

Sorry, my question was aimed towards the increase of drug use. Just wondering how making illegal drugs legal would decrease the use of drugs.

The way I see it, you just invite more people to do it, thus, increasing it greatly.

Look at the statistics for drinking pre and post prohibition...and you will see that thats just not the case...and it is as addictive as cocaine/heroin etc...in fact judging by severity of withdrawal alcohols only equals in addictiveness are Valium and Xanex...those 3 withdrawals are the ones that often cause outright death...

How many people dp you know that will begin using drugs just because they become legal?......

"Oh wow heroin is legal what do ya say honey lets go buy a dime of smack!"...

[Lynks]

Godamn, use your mind every once and a while.
The same unemployed drug dealers on the street, would create new companies, are unemployment rate would drop substantially, poverty would slightly decrease, are economy would boost, The crime rate would reduce by up to maybe 50%, our police officers would be engaged in important activities, such as solving murder cases, preventing corperate scandal, our government could save BILLIONS, which could go towards the deficit, stem cell research, and other important programs etc etc
Overall, less americans would fall victim to drug related crimes, less people would die by the use of narcotics, as several OD's are caused by dirty, unsafe drugs

all these things at the cost of maybe a 3-5% increase on the use of now-illigal narcotics (at the very most) Becouse people who want to do coke, dont stop themselves just becouse its illigal

Actually, OD's are caused by people taking too much, hence, overdose. I also like were you get your figures, only a 3-5% increase in users, your fucking joking. 50% in crime reduction, thats too fucking funny.

Sure, people aren't killing each other OVER drugs, but now, they are killing each other because they are high on drugs. Can you imagine a society were everyone is high? More accidents, more crime, more people put into hospitals which means more taxes. Now that cops don't have to spend time busting people for these drugs, they can spend more time people beating the shit out of their spouses cause they are so fucking high.

Get real Xzion. You're no worse than the others preaching their religion right now.

[Lynks]

Sorry, my question was aimed towards the increase of drug use. Just wondering how making illegal drugs legal would decrease the use of drugs.

The way I see it, you just invite more people to do it, thus, increasing it greatly.

Look at the statistics for drinking pre and post prohibition...and you will see that thats just not the case...and it is as addictive as cocaine/heroin etc...in fact judging by severity of withdrawal alcohols only equals in addictiveness are Valium and Xanex...those 3 withdrawals are the ones that often cause outright death...

So lets say I do drugs, you're telling me that now that they are legal, I will stop doing them? Or now that they are legal, all the people who don't do them will continue not to do them? That doesn't make sense.

[Arborealus]

Sorry, my question was aimed towards the increase of drug use. Just wondering how making illegal drugs legal would decrease the use of drugs.

The way I see it, you just invite more people to do it, thus, increasing it greatly.

Look at the statistics for drinking pre and post prohibition...and you will see that thats just not the case...and it is as addictive as cocaine/heroin etc...in fact judging by severity of withdrawal alcohols only equals in addictiveness are Valium and Xanex...those 3 withdrawals are the ones that often cause outright death...

So lets say I do drugs, you're telling me that now that they are legal, I will stop doing them? Or now that they are legal, all the people who don't do them will continue not to do them? That doesn't make sense.

Im saying the people who quit drugs and stay quit only ever do so because they decide to...and they decide to because of other effects they have on their life...Not simply because it's illegal...

Use smoking for an example...it is as addictive and legal...is the rate of smokers constantly increasing due to this? Nope people see the other side effects and move away from it...Now I agree that it should be taxed in proportion to its medical cost to society...but ya know heroin morphine cocaine...all these were legal and readily available for years...and society the weren't a buch of junkies...

[Xzion]

Godamn, use your mind every once and a while.
The same unemployed drug dealers on the street, would create new companies, are unemployment rate would drop substantially, poverty would slightly decrease, are economy would boost, The crime rate would reduce by up to maybe 50%, our police officers would be engaged in important activities, such as solving murder cases, preventing corperate scandal, our government could save BILLIONS, which could go towards the deficit, stem cell research, and other important programs etc etc
Overall, less americans would fall victim to drug related crimes, less people would die by the use of narcotics, as several OD's are caused by dirty, unsafe drugs

all these things at the cost of maybe a 3-5% increase on the use of now-illigal narcotics (at the very most) Becouse people who want to do coke, dont stop themselves just becouse its illigal

Actually, OD's are caused by people taking too much, hence, overdose. I also like were you get your figures, only a 3-5% increase in users, your fucking joking. 50% in crime reduction, thats too fucking funny.

Sure, people aren't killing each other OVER drugs, but now, they are killing each other because they are high on drugs. Can you imagine a society were everyone is high? More accidents, more crime, more people put into hospitals which means more taxes. Now that cops don't have to spend time busting people for these drugs, they can spend more time people beating the shit out of their spouses cause they are so fucking high.

Get real Xzion. You're no worse than the others preaching their religion right now.

Would you use drugs if they were legal? Gay sex is legal, not everyone engages in it, just the people that enjoy gay sex.
Im sure it would seem like a huge increase in drug use, becouse more people would be public in there use of drugs.
You wouldnt believe how many successful doctors, lawyers or buisiness executives making 700k+ a year occasionally use narcotics
This comming from someone who is very conservative on drug use. I havnt smoked pot more then 5-6 times in the last 4 months, and only occasionally "roll" if im in the right enviornment. (this being like 3x over the span of my 22 year lifetime)
A 50% crime reduction is fairly accurate, look at our prison population and read up how many people are in jail for drug related crimes or for occasional use of drugs

I would be willing to sacrifice a slight increase in drug use in the name of a stronger economy, and all the other benefits i have listed that would come alone with the legalization of drugs...godamn i cant begin to count how many times wev had the "drug" argument on VV

[Lynks]

Ok, but how will making it legal decrease the amount of users then? This is the point I don't get from what you were saying.

Ill ask again but in a simple way. You said...

In the last 20 years heroin marijuana and cocaine use have increased significantly...

then I said...

And making it (heroin, marijuana, and cocaine) legal would decrease it how?

My answer is, it won't.
Your answer is........

[Xzion]

Ok, but how will making it legal decrease the amount of users then? This is the point I don't get from what you were saying.

Ill ask again but in a simple way. You said...

In the last 20 years heroin marijuana and cocaine use have increased significantly...

then I said...

And making it (heroin, marijuana, and cocaine) legal would decrease it how?

My answer is, it won't.
Your answer is........

Out of curiosity, do you have a better plan for the clearly unsuccessful "war on drugs"?

[Arborealus]

Ok, but how will making it legal decrease the amount of users then? This is the point I don't get from what you were saying.

Ill ask again but in a simple way. You said...

In the last 20 years heroin marijuana and cocaine use have increased significantly...

then I said...

And making it (heroin, marijuana, and cocaine) legal would decrease it how?

My answer is, it won't.
Your answer is........

Why do you think the behaviour isnt largely self limiting identical to nicotine or alcohol?...I don't expect there would be a major increase or decrease in use...but it will greatly reduce violent crime...

[Lynks]

I don't have a better plan for it rihgt now, but one thing is, I sure as hell wouldn't make it legal.

As for the smoking remark, its kinda hard to increase the population of smokers when the majority smoke. I looked up some stats, its estimated at 60-65% of americans smoke, and 34% of highscholl students smoke with an increasing rate. If they made smoking illegal, I would bet that within a few years, thos enumbers would be cut in half and less money would be spend in health care for people with various smoking diseases.

Right now, these illegal drugs have always been illegal making it really tough to increase the population of users. In 5-10 years time, I can see the percentage of users doubling if it was legal.

Would you use drugs if they were legal?

I wouldn't, but I do know some people that would.

[Arborealus]

I don't have a better plan for it rihgt now, but one thing is, I sure as hell wouldn't make it legal.

As for the smoking remark, its kinda hard to increase the population of smokers when the majority smoke. I looked up some stats, its estimated at 60-65% of americans smoke, and 34% of highscholl students smoke with an increasing rate. If they made smoking illegal, I would bet that within a few years, thos enumbers would be cut in half and less money would be spend in health care for people with various smoking diseases.

Right now, these illegal drugs have always been illegal making it really tough to increase the population of users. In 5-10 years time, I can see the percentage of users doubling if it was legal.

Would you use drugs if they were legal?

I wouldn't, but I do know some people that would.

No these drugs were largely legal...cocaine was legal from its discovery through regulation in the late 50's...heroin the same, morphine the same...

You say I can see it doubling etc etc then why again I ask didn't it with alcohol...It is a perfect model...identical in almost every respect...

Sorry I don't care to base law on what you can imagine...I prefer facts...

[archeiron]

I don't have a better plan for it rihgt now, but one thing is, I sure as hell wouldn't make it legal.

As for the smoking remark, its kinda hard to increase the population of smokers when the majority smoke. I looked up some stats, its estimated at 60-65% of americans smoke, and 34% of highscholl students smoke with an increasing rate. If they made smoking illegal, I would bet that within a few years, thos enumbers would be cut in half and less money would be spend in health care for people with various smoking diseases.

Right now, these illegal drugs have always been illegal making it really tough to increase the population of users. In 5-10 years time, I can see the percentage of users doubling if it was legal.

Would you use drugs if they were legal?

I wouldn't, but I do know some people that would.

And you believe that it is the government's job to tell responsible adults which substances they are and are not allowed to put in their body? (especially those that would not commit a crime drugs or no)

To stem off the most obvious response: When someone drinks and then does something damaging to society, we charge them for the second act with the additional penalty of doing it under the influence (drink-driving). The same could be applied to other "drugs".

[Lynks]

Responsible adults wouldn't be poisining their bodies with drugs. A responsible adult would be too preoccupied with getting by through life without wasting it away in their basements thinking to themselves "LOL, The guy said Dave's not here, but he's too high to realize that Dave is at the door, LMAOROLFLOLOL!!!" I know this is a stereotype, but whatever.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Responsible adults wouldn't be poisining their bodies with drugs. A responsible adult would be too preoccupied with getting by through life without wasting it away in their basements thinking to themselves "LOL, The guy said Dave's not here, but he's too high to realize that Dave is at the door, LMAOROLFLOLOL!!!" I know this is a stereotype, but whatever.

I couldn't agree with you more.

[kyoukan]

so giggling to cheech and chong once in awhile is more serious a problem for you than chronic alcoholism or rampant prescription medication abuse?

[Lynks]

so giggling to cheech and chong once in awhile is more serious a problem for you than chronic alcoholism or rampant prescription medication abuse?

No, but I wasn't going to bring those other 2 points up in a discussion about making illegal drugs legal.

[kyoukan]

why? it is the very crux of the argument, is it not?

[masteen]

Haven't you heard? Alcohol and prescription goofballs aren't really drugs.

[Lynks]

Fine, I think that chronic alcoholism and medication abuse are really bad, more so than illegal drugs because people can always hide behind the law. If it were up to me, I'd throw all those who abuse it in jail for years.

Happy?

Since we are on this topic now, was alcohol ever illegal? I haven't been around for that long. If it wasn't Arb, then alcohol isn't the perfect model. The difference would be that people are discouraged to take illegal drugs (according to the law that is).

I feel like a broken record saying this though, but making them legal would just have more people taking them and not decrease the amount like stated before.

[kyoukan]

Since we are on this topic now, was alcohol ever illegal? I haven't been around for that long.

is that a serious question?

[Lynks]

LOl no. I shuld of put the smiley face at the end.

[kyoukan]

so do you support the banning of alcohol and addictive prescription drugs or the legalization of other substances? or both? or what?

[Jice Virago]

Lynks read history books. The prohibition basically created organized crime as we know it in this country. People will still pay do illegal substances no matter what the laws. Countries with legal use of narcotics have some of the lowest crime rates in all of europe. These are facts that you could look up in 20 seconds.

Now, I don't think there would be an end to the criminals that sprang up to drive the narcotics trade, much as after prohibition the mafia moved on to other areas of money making. It would, however, drastically reduce the amount of violent crime in the country. Personally, I think this is just another case of someone elses morality being imposed on people.