Saddam abused

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » June 23, 2004, 1:14 pm

Saddam was captured by U.S. forces in December and has remained in coalition custody at an undisclosed location.

NEW YORK (CNN) -- A lawyer for former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein has alleged that Red Cross documents show his client has been abused while held in detention.

Jordanian defense lawyer Mohammad Rashdan showed CNN the documents, which were filled out after the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) visited the captured leader on January 21.

Rashdan showed one page of the ICRC report, on which various boxes can be checked to indicate the physical condition of a detainee.

"Good health" and "slightly wounded" are marked to indicate Saddam's condition.

"Why would he be slightly wounded a month after his arrest?" Rashdan asked during an interview with CNN.

"He's being abused, just like the prisoners of Abu Ghraib were abused."

However, the attorney had no proof of any abuse.

Rashdan has never spoken to or seen Saddam, despite making several requests to do so, he said.

Saddam was captured by U.S. forces in December near his hometown of Tikrit and has remained in coalition custody at an undisclosed location since.

Rashdan said he has sent several letters to U.S. officials, including Attorney General John Ashcroft, requesting his client have "the basic rights anyone on the face of this earth has: the right to a representation and fair trial."

So far he has received no responses, he said.

The attorney is in the United States this week, visiting media outlets with the ICRC documents.

He is set to appear on several American news programs and plans to hold a news conference in Washington in the coming days.

Rashdan also complained that he doesn't think the United States will be able to provide him and his client with a safe meeting place when they are finally able to get together.

"They cannot even protect their own troops from insurgents. It's a disgrace," the attorney said.

"How can they provide me with a chance to sit down and talk to him without dangers of all kinds looming around us?"

Pentagon sources have said Saddam is being held in Iraq but the exact location has not been disclosed for security reasons.

Letter to daughter
Rashdan also showed CNN part of the ICRC report entitled the "Family Message" section.

In it, Saddam had written a letter to his daughter, Raghad, though most of the text is blacked out.

It is not clear if the redaction was done before the letter was sent, or if it was blacked out afterward to protect the family's privacy.

"To my small family and my big family ... in peace," part of the letter reads.

"As far as my soul and my morale, they are twinkling in the great Lord's blessing. My regards to everybody, (signed) Saddam Hussein," the letter finishes.

U.S. officials have said that the former president has been less than cooperative during questioning by interrogators and has not divulged much useful information.

Saddam has not yet been officially charged with any crimes.

When asked if the former president would testify on his own behalf at a trial, Rashdan said that question is "jumping the gun."

The attorney said that in his view, the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq was illegal, and therefore, everything that came after it is "null and void."

On Tuesday, Salim Chalabi, the head of the Iraqi war crimes tribunal, said that the Iraqi government could get legal custody of the former president while leaving him under U.S. guard.

Chalabi said he doesn't believe at present that Iraq has the ability to hold Saddam securely, citing the chance that insurgents might try to spring him from jail.

A CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll released at the end of April showed that 83 percent of Iraqis questioned agreed the former president should be put on trial, and 84 percent believed him probably guilty of murder and torture.

A majority, 56 percent, believed Saddam will get a fair trial, and 61 percent would support the death penalty for him

Rashdan says his client is the sole legitimate president of Iraq, and he believes he should be treated according to the Geneva Conventions -- and with the respect due his position.

Saddam himself appears to agree with his lawyer. On the ICRC document, he listed his occupation as "Republic's President."

Well, I'll be damned...[/quote]

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 23, 2004, 1:34 pm

I fucking hate lawyers.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 23, 2004, 1:37 pm

Well while I agree he has some basic rights, I hate lawyers also.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » June 23, 2004, 1:38 pm

Why couldn't they have taken pictures of THAT? I mean, if you're gonna be inhumane to someone and record it for all to see, at LEAST make it Saddam!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 23, 2004, 1:38 pm

It is an interesting situation.. Saddam got the title "Prisoner of War" along with a few of the other governmental people that got captured. Because of that, he is ENTITLED to certain treatments. Notice that 99% of the people captured in Iraq and who are being kept still, do NOT have the title "Prisoner of War". How, I can't say.. makes no sense.

However, if I am not mistaken, they will have to charge Saddam before they hand over Iraq to the Iraqis again the 30th, since that will formally end the occupation. And when an occupation formally ends all Prisoners of War are supposed to be released.

Of course that begs the difference.. what about the thousands who are not titled Prisoner of War?

Edit: As a side note.. I am 100% certain he was captured before the one they video taped. Pretty sure that was a staged one, he was obviously drugged up when they found him and showed no interest in fighting back.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » June 23, 2004, 1:48 pm

Maybe his wounds were emotional.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 23, 2004, 1:49 pm

Kelshara wrote:Edit: As a side note.. I am 100% certain he was captured before the one they video taped. Pretty sure that was a staged one, he was obviously drugged up when they found him and showed no interest in fighting back.

I was with you until you got here Kelshara, the Pentagon was PISSED about the capture photos leaking. They did NOT stage a capture following a real one, I refuse to believe that such a thing would not have leaked if they had, there were ground troopies of private rank there, they are not political animals they are privates. Someone would have talked.

I think he looked like a guy used to the best of everything who had his entire world changed and had been living in a hole in the ground disoriented, he did not look like a dude we pumped full of valium to make him pleasant for a capture tape.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 23, 2004, 2:03 pm

Kelshara wrote:It is an interesting situation.. Saddam got the title "War Criminal" along with a few of the other governmental people that got captured. Because of that, he is ENTITLED to certain treatments. Notice that 99% of the people captured in Iraq and who are being kept still, do NOT have the title "War Criminal". How, I can't say.. makes no sense.

However, if I am not mistaken, they will have to charge Saddam before they hand over Iraq to the Iraqis again the 30th, since that will formally end the occupation. And when an occupation formally ends all War Criminals are supposed to be released.

Of course that begs the difference.. what about the thousands who are not titled War Criminals?

Edit: As a side note.. I am 100% certain he was captured before the one they video taped. Pretty sure that was a staged one, he was obviously drugged up when they found him and showed no interest in fighting back.

I think you mean Prisoner of War not War Criminal...and to the best of my knowledge all those captured in Iraq during combat are considered POWs...

The "illegal combatant" contrivance was reserved for those captured in Afghanistan...and shipped to GTMO...

Saddam is largely considered to be guilty of murder and torture of his own people, not war crimes as such...hence the US is holding him to be tried by the Iraqi court system....

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 23, 2004, 2:35 pm

Yes I did sorry been studying accounting concepts all day and my brain is fried..

Anyway, can't remember where I read it but I am 100% sure that I read that only Saddamn and a select few others were official PoWs. Wether true or not I am sure others can answer though.

That said.. a question.. if Saddam is being tried in Iraq for crimes committed against his own people, why were former Jugoslavians tried at the War Crime Tribunal?

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 23, 2004, 2:56 pm

Kelshara wrote:Yes I did sorry been studying accounting concepts all day and my brain is fried..

Anyway, can't remember where I read it but I am 100% sure that I read that only Saddamn and a select few others were official PoWs. Wether true or not I am sure others can answer though.

That said.. a question.. if Saddam is being tried in Iraq for crimes committed against his own people, why were former Jugoslavians tried at the War Crime Tribunal?

You may have read it...though it's incorrect...a lot of folks are muddling Afghanistan and Iraq issues together, a few people captured in Iraq may have been sent to GTMO (aka the black hole of calcutta) as illegal combatants but the huge bulk were kept in country as POWs...

As far as when an international tribunal versus trial in country...There was no declared state of war when Saddam committed said crimes largely...

I don't think anyone is clear on when an issue is handled in world court versus domestic court hence all the current argument in the UN over jurisdiction of the world court...

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 23, 2004, 3:33 pm

From what I understand and in awareness that IANAL, the illegal combatants thing was applied to people who were not afghani citizens but were captured in camps in Afghanistan.

I have always wondered if this was true, what happened to Afghani combatants.

There are a lot more questions about Afghanistan than people are asking due to the elephant by comparison called Iraq.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » June 23, 2004, 3:59 pm

Man the US government has so many loopholes its rediculous.

I plead the FIF! one two three four FIF!

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » June 23, 2004, 4:00 pm

Bush Jr. prolly flew Bush sr. to the prison just to let Daddy kick Saddam in the balls a few times.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 23, 2004, 5:11 pm

Kylere wrote:From what I understand and in awareness that IANAL, the illegal combatants thing was applied to people who were not afghani citizens but were captured in camps in Afghanistan.

I have always wondered if this was true, what happened to Afghani combatants.

There are a lot more questions about Afghanistan than people are asking due to the elephant by comparison called Iraq.

It was also definitely applied to Afghani nationals...Some of the handful of people who were later released from GTMO were Afghani nationals who had been "mistakenly" detained...

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » June 23, 2004, 5:13 pm

Was he Saddam-ized?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 23, 2004, 7:18 pm

Bubba Grizz wrote:Was he Saddam-ized?

LOL

What if he was. Anal sex is perfectly normal. Isn't it.....gay people?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » June 23, 2004, 7:28 pm

As long as you are consenting, it's normal.
Watch two male dugs hump when no female is in sight sometime..

If you're not, then it's unethical, aka, rape.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » June 23, 2004, 8:31 pm

Why do you care if 2 gay guys have sex Mid? Unless one is you and it is against your will, then it is none of your business.

I don't get why Christians get so upset over this. Is it affecting you in some strange way, does it turn you on and you don't want to face it?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 23, 2004, 8:39 pm

Tyek wrote:Why do you care if 2 gay guys have sex Mid? Unless one is you and it is against your will, then it is none of your business.

I don't get why Christians get so upset over this. Is it affecting you in some strange way, does it turn you on and you don't want to face it?

It was just a joke. I don't want to derail so let's move on. Also, I'm not a Christian. I am non-religious. And no, the thought of a guy fucking another gu in the ass is beyond nasty. But, we could start another thread about gays again if you wish. I do enjoy a good gay thread.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 24, 2004, 1:31 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Anal sex is perfectly normal. Isn't it.....gay people?

Anal sex isn't an uncommon act among straight people. Anyway nice derail.

I probably should give a fuck if Saddam was tortured or not but I don't.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » June 24, 2004, 2:07 am

Forthe wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Anal sex is perfectly normal. Isn't it.....gay people?

Anal sex isn't an uncommon act among straight people. Anyway nice derail.

I probably should give a fuck if Saddam was tortured or not but I don't.

but... he was captured as part of a war propogated on lies! he should be reinstated as president of the country because GW lied about WMDs and like almost a thousand people died already and it's an illegal war and prisoners were abused and the liberal media reported it all totally fair and balanced and stuff and Al Frankin's totally right and Saddam was abused and we're only in it for the oil and yeah.. it's all an illegal war anyways so he should be released and placed back in power.

Why the 180° suddenly Forthe?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 24, 2004, 2:24 am

yes we should all show how much better we are than saddam by doing the same things he did to him and other iraqis that he did when he was in power.

great idea guys.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 24, 2004, 8:46 am

Yeah your right Kyoukan, how dare a Canadian like Forthe suggest it is okay what happens to Saddam.

I personally think we should release him right now in the middle of Northern Iraq.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 24, 2004, 11:30 am

Kylere wrote:Yeah your right Kyoukan, how dare a Canadian like Forthe suggest it is okay what happens to Saddam.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Jesus man, you might want to get that priapism looked at.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 24, 2004, 11:32 am

Sylvus wrote:
Kylere wrote:Yeah your right Kyoukan, how dare a Canadian like Forthe suggest it is okay what happens to Saddam.
What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Jesus man, you might want to get that priapism looked at.

Umm because she criticised Americans for feeling that way, when a fellow Canadian is the one that expressed it, how fucking hard is that to figure out.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 24, 2004, 11:39 am

Do you actually think that all canadians act and think the same? Im sure there are other americans that feel the opposite of you. Should I now, every time you open your mouth, say "cmon Kylere, how dare another american say that".

Nationality has nothing to do with it.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 24, 2004, 11:44 am

Actually, she used the pronoun "we", not "you".

I think the message was directed more at the people in the thread, perhaps including Forthe (who actually said that even though he probably should, he doesn't really care one way or the other), who want to see Saddam tortured like he tortured others. It said nothing about Americans. The hard-on you've had lately for going after kyoukan is clouding your judgement again.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 24, 2004, 12:17 pm

Sylvus wrote:Actually, she used the pronoun "we", not "you".

I think the message was directed more at the people in the thread, perhaps including Forthe (who actually said that even though he probably should, he doesn't really care one way or the other), who want to see Saddam tortured like he tortured others. It said nothing about Americans. The hard-on you've had lately for going after kyoukan is clouding your judgement again.

Her pronoun choice was based on the fact that if you look over the history of her posts she always tries that false I am part of this group sarcasm bs.

Forthe "I probably should give a fuck if Saddam was tortured or not but I don't." Not me, not Midnyte, not Cartalas, so if she had a problem with that, she should have addressed it that way.

If Saddam is being tortured, i think they same rules should apply to those who ordered and carried it out as what I believe should happen with the Abu Ghirab people, turn them over to an international war crimes tribunal and try them for crime against humanity. So her little attack was entirely unfounded since only the ignorant would back the torture of a captured and harmless foe.

I would personally not have a problem smacking him once, but that is personal since as a direct result of his actions I got to take a shitty field trip to the desert, but I would not tie him up to do it, only cowards attack those who cannot defend themselves, kind of like the people that worked in the WTC could not.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 24, 2004, 12:31 pm

The major problem with the abuse of Iraqis going on (wether of Saddam or of regular Iraqis) is that once the WMD accusations got thrown out the window, Bush settled on the "He is abusive towards his people" argument as the reason for war. When you claim you invade someone due to how abusive he is, and then be abusive yourself (granted at a smaller scale), you loose a LOT of face. And you will have a hell of a lot harder time to settle down the country and win their support.

When you put yourself up on a pidestal you fall longer once you fall.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 24, 2004, 12:34 pm

Never been on a pidestal, does it hurt like a pedestal fall?

I agree Kelshara, but I do not think that we are abusing Saddam, and if we are, then we need to turn Bush over to a War Crimes trial just like we held at the end of WW2.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 24, 2004, 12:37 pm

Don't make fun of me before my morning coffee

That is mean! MEAN!

I have no idea if he is being abused or not, just making an argument of how the whole abuse problem can and is viewed by foreigners.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » June 24, 2004, 12:53 pm

Lynks wrote:Do you actually think that all canadians act and think the same? Im sure there are other americans that feel the opposite of you. Should I now, every time you open your mouth, say "cmon Kylere, how dare another american say that".

Nationality has nothing to do with it.

Actually....this is exactly how all of you view Americans. I could link to about 5,000 posts that specifically show thism but I will let you open up any single thread in the current events and do the work yourself.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 24, 2004, 1:03 pm

Most of the Canadian posters here are rational, intelligent and logical, but Kyoukan is rabid and hating, and that is fact not conjecture or opinion. I have recently read through a few months of both her and Cartalas's posts, and it is all about hate, and complaints not solutions, and sarcasm not fact from Kyoukan. At least Cartalas can lose an argument and admit it, Kyoukan is ALWAYS right in her mind.

As a matter of fact she is the single most opinionated with no ability to concede anything of all the regular posters in current events.

So when she lauches Generic_All_Americans_Are_Evil_Attack001 I will keep responding.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 24, 2004, 1:14 pm

Again, I ask, where does it say Americans in this thread?

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » June 24, 2004, 1:15 pm

To hell with releasing him in northern iraq, like posted above.. Release him in the bed stys projects in brooklyn, or in south central los angeles maybe, quarentine the area off and broadcast it on cable tv.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 24, 2004, 1:16 pm

Umm since Canada did not deploy troops what other logical decision can be reached Sylvus.

Not to mention that she is not talking about humanity on the whole, and other than being silly no one thought she was speaking of anything other than americans.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 24, 2004, 1:28 pm

Yeah, I realize that they are Americans. How does commenting on saddam's capture, and thinking that it's hypocritical to remove someone from power for abusing people and then abusing that person get twisted into "Generic_All_Americans_Are_Evil_Attack001". You're really reaching.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that your interpretation that it is a condemnation of all Americans is both conjecture and opinion, and that your earlier post is not only hyperbole, but wrong.

kylere wrote:single most opinionated with no ability to concede anything

That's funny because lately you've posted several things along the lines of "and that's not just my opinion, it's a fact!" when it was absolutely your opinion.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 24, 2004, 2:59 pm

Just because your opinion varied from fact, does not mean that the facts were my opinion.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 24, 2004, 3:45 pm

No, we both posted opinions. You're claiming that yours are facts; you do that quite often. That is a fact. Here are a few from the last month:

Kylere wrote:Most of the Canadian posters here are rational, intelligent and logical, but Kyoukan is rabid and hating, and that is fact not conjecture or opinion.

Kylere wrote:However the fact is that if your 13 year old is getting drunk and wrecking things, then you are a shitty parent.

Kylere wrote:This about covers it, minus the fact that Native Americans have matured, and Eurotrash once removed has not.

Kylere wrote:So the deal is that if you treat people like this you no longer rate as human in my book, bigotry is lack of acceptance based on a stereotype or ignorance, I know on fact these people are not human beings.

Kylere wrote:Germany and France both had sweetheart deals, and the Oil for Food program was pumping BILLIONS inot the UN Coffers, this is a fact, and if you do not think that influenced their decisions then you are as clueless as those that do not think oil influenced the US decision.

Kylere wrote:Unless of course you are an abusive reservist, then you deny all your learning in an effort to excuse the fact that you are not human. But someone who is worth a damn at all is IMPROVED greatly by military experience.

Kylere wrote:The very fact that the Soviets were in decline is precisely why we had to have a strong military. Reagan scared the Soviets so badly that they collapsed internally without taking 20 million people with them.

This is historical fact no matter how much you would like to rewrite it. Their spies have admitted it, their government officials have, and it is fact.

Kylere wrote:Add in the fact that if I moved 9 miles my insurance rates would cut in HALF, and I know for a fact that the crime rate is higher and more cars are stolen 9 miles away and you can see that the insurance companies are practicing criminal level fraud in the state of Michigan. I was never raped by an insurance company in any other place at the level they do in Michigan.

Kylere wrote:But that is moot, the fact is that smart people change their minds, dumb people are incapable of doing so.

Kylere wrote:Tanc, even with facts you cannot face reality, GM closing plants killed Flint, but Michael Moore went after the wrong target. The UAW is what killed automanufacturing in Flint Michigan but he would not dare attack a left wing bastion of power.

Kylere wrote:Now for a fact, [Moore and Limbaugh] are both drama queens, and that is your issue of denial not mine, if you think either is a passionate human being with very little self interest who is willing to hear everyone out, you are decidedly wrong.

Kylere wrote:Umm Forthe, you would not have backed the US under a republican president unless Iraq detonated a nuclear device in Toronto. I love you and think you are a great guy, but THAT is a fact.

Kylere wrote:I lived in Flint during the time period he filmed, and the following is fact.

70% of what he depicted occured BEFORE 1986 when he stated, implied or inferred that it did.
Most of the timeline was inaccurate
The Rabbit chick lives in Clio, which does not even border on Flint, that is like blaming things that happen in New York on Virginia.
The people being evicted, staged

Kylere wrote:Michael Moore - Stupid Fat Environment Ruining Druggie White repressed homosexual who alters facts and reality to build propaganda against those he dislikes.

Rush Limbaugh - Stupid Fat Environment Ruining Druggie White repressed homosexual who alters facts and reality to build propaganda against those he dislikes.

(now before anyone gets on the homosexual thing, I did not say it was bad, the fact that they are in denial IS bad however.)

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 24, 2004, 4:10 pm

Sylvus wrote:No, we both posted opinions. You're claiming that yours are facts; you do that quite often. That is a fact. Here are a few from the last month:

Kylere wrote:Most of the Canadian posters here are rational, intelligent and logical, but Kyoukan is rabid and hating, and that is fact not conjecture or opinion.
Prove this not to be factual

Kylere wrote:However the fact is that if your 13 year old is getting drunk and wrecking things, then you are a shitty parent.
Oh I see, in your world drunken destructive 13 year olds are the result of good parenting?

Kylere wrote:This about covers it, minus the fact that Native Americans have matured, and Eurotrash once removed has not.
How is this not fact, Native Americans did not launch what many see as an unjustified war in Iraq, nor did they fight Vietnam, Kill 6 million jews, slaughter 10 million soviets etc. Europeans have killed more people than any other cultural group on the planet. And yes I count the Ukraine as European and it is borderline.

Kylere wrote:So the deal is that if you treat people like this you no longer rate as human in my book, bigotry is lack of acceptance based on a stereotype or ignorance, I know on fact these people are not human beings.
So you think they have a claim to human based on animal like behavior, interesting but I will stick to animals being animals and humans being human as fact.

Kylere wrote:Germany and France both had sweetheart deals, and the Oil for Food program was pumping BILLIONS inot the UN Coffers, this is a fact, and if you do not think that influenced their decisions then you are as clueless as those that do not think oil influenced the US decision.
This is straight up fact, you cannot even argue it.

Kylere wrote:Unless of course you are an abusive reservist, then you deny all your learning in an effort to excuse the fact that you are not human. But someone who is worth a damn at all is IMPROVED greatly by military experience.
Okay so you are saying that military experience does not improve people if they started out worth a damn? Umm wrong

Kylere wrote:The very fact that the Soviets were in decline is precisely why we had to have a strong military. Reagan scared the Soviets so badly that they collapsed internally without taking 20 million people with them.

This is historical fact no matter how much you would like to rewrite it. Their spies have admitted it, their government officials have, and it is fact.
Prove me wrong, it is historical fact, we do not have to have an alternative world run its time out to show that the Soviets were expansionist, interested in invading Europe and more than willing to do this rather than collapse except in the face of sure failure

Kylere wrote:Add in the fact that if I moved 9 miles my insurance rates would cut in HALF, and I know for a fact that the crime rate is higher and more cars are stolen 9 miles away and you can see that the insurance companies are practicing criminal level fraud in the state of Michigan. I was never raped by an insurance company in any other place at the level they do in Michigan.
Umm this is also fact.

Kylere wrote:But that is moot, the fact is that smart people change their minds, dumb people are incapable of doing so.
Entirely true, you know for arguing against me presenting facts, you really suck

Kylere wrote:Tanc, even with facts you cannot face reality, GM closing plants killed Flint, but Michael Moore went after the wrong target. The UAW is what killed automanufacturing in Flint Michigan but he would not dare attack a left wing bastion of power.
Oh yeah, you think that GM decided to screw Flitn Michigan for giggles? Hell the UAW spent so much time patting itself on the back that they voted against things that would keep factories open. I lived through it, it is fact.

Kylere wrote:Now for a fact, [Moore and Limbaugh] are both drama queens, and that is your issue of denial not mine, if you think either is a passionate human being with very little self interest who is willing to hear everyone out, you are decidedly wrong.
Yeah good old boys, both of them filled with the milk of human kindness.

Kylere wrote:Umm Forthe, you would not have backed the US under a republican president unless Iraq detonated a nuclear device in Toronto. I love you and think you are a great guy, but THAT is a fact.
Gotta Love Forthe, but he is decidedly against GW

Kylere wrote:I lived in Flint during the time period he filmed, and the following is fact.

70% of what he depicted occured BEFORE 1986 when he stated, implied or inferred that it did.
Most of the timeline was inaccurate
The Rabbit chick lives in Clio, which does not even border on Flint, that is like blaming things that happen in New York on Virginia.
The people being evicted, staged

Also all fact

Kylere wrote:Michael Moore - Stupid Fat Environment Ruining Druggie White repressed homosexual who alters facts and reality to build propaganda against those he dislikes.

Rush Limbaugh - Stupid Fat Environment Ruining Druggie White repressed homosexual who alters facts and reality to build propaganda against those he dislikes.

(now before anyone gets on the homosexual thing, I did not say it was bad, the fact that they are in denial IS bad however.)
Okay here is one opinion mixed with fact

Post by **Sylvus** » June 24, 2004, 5:05 pm

Christ...

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:Most of the Canadian posters here are rational, intelligent and logical, but Kyoukan is rabid and hating, and that is fact not conjecture or opinion.
Prove this not to be factual

Well, I'll have to send kyoukan in to get some tests done but I don't think that she has rabies...

For fuck's sake man, that is absolutely your opinion. And check out the meaning of fact, it's something that is true, not something that I cannot prove to not be true. You think she's rabid and hating; I disagree.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:However the fact is that if your 13 year old is getting drunk and wrecking things, then you are a shitty parent.
Oh I see, in your world drunken destructive 13 year olds are the result of good parenting?

Did I say anything like that? All I said was that you claim it is a fact, and I disagree. Sometimes bad parenting can be a cause, other times good parents can still end up with shitty kids. It's not a fact that any 13 year old who is getting drunk and wrecking things has bad parents.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:This about covers it, minus the fact that Native Americans have matured, and Eurotrash once removed has not.
How is this not fact, Native Americans did not launch what many see as an unjustified war in Iraq, nor did they fight Vietnam, Kill 6 million jews, slaughter 10 million soviets etc. Europeans have killed more people than any other cultural group on the planet. And yes I count the Ukraine as European and it is borderline.

Native Americans are not in any position to do any of those things even if they wanted to. It has nothing to do with them having matured more than anyone else. Another opinion.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:So the deal is that if you treat people like this you no longer rate as human in my book, bigotry is lack of acceptance based on a stereotype or ignorance, I know on fact these people are not human beings.
So you think they have a claim to human based on animal like behavior, interesting but I will stick to animals being animals and humans being human as fact.

What? It's pretty much a fact that humans are humans, has to do with their DNA or something, I'm not in that branch of science. Your opinion that someone who beheads other people is no better than an animal doesn't change that fact that the person is human. There are a lot of people who would say that someone who shot at other people with guns while in the armed forces are no better than animals, does that mean that it's a fact that you are not a human being?

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:Germany and France both had sweetheart deals, and the Oil for Food program was pumping BILLIONS inot the UN Coffers, this is a fact, and if you do not think that influenced their decisions then you are as clueless as those that do not think oil influenced the US decision.
This is straight up fact, you cannot even argue it.

I am not familiar enough with the intimate details as to say whether or not the UN made BILLIONS from the Oil for Food program and whether that influenced their decisions on Iraq, but I have seen other people argue both sides of it. Usually when people can take opposite sides of an argument, it's either not a fact or hasn't proven to be true yet. A fact is something like "The earth revolves around the sun". An opinion is something like "Kylere is a fucking douchebag".

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:Unless of course you are an abusive reservist, then you deny all your learning in an effort to excuse the fact that you are not human. But someone who is worth a damn at all is IMPROVED greatly by military experience.
Okay so you are saying that military experience does not improve people if they started out worth a damn? Umm wrong

That's not particularly what I was commenting on, but that's the closest thing to a fact that you've posted. Of course, measuring someone on whether they are worth a damn or not is still a matter of opinion. And I'd also wager that there were people who started off "worth a damn" who were exposed to the horrors of war and ended up worse people as a result.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:The very fact that the Soviets were in decline is precisely why we had to have a strong military. Reagan scared the Soviets so badly that they collapsed internally without taking 20 million people with them.

This is historical fact no matter how much you would like to rewrite it. Their spies have admitted it, their government officials have, and it is fact.
Prove me wrong, it is historical fact, we do not have to have an alternative world run its time out to show that the Soviets were expansionist, interested in invading Europe and more than willing to do this rather than collapse except in the face of sure failure

No it is not a fact. I agree with your opinion that our military in the 80s contributed to the fall of the Soviet Union, but it is not a fact that we scared them so badly that they fell apart. There were a great number of factors that contributed to it.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:Add in the fact that if I moved 9 miles my insurance rates would cut in HALF, and I know for a fact that the crime rate is higher and more cars are stolen 9 miles away and you can see that the insurance companies are practicing criminal level fraud in the state of Michigan. I was never raped by an insurance company in any other place at the level they do in Michigan.
Umm this is also fact.

Maybe it is, sounds fishy to me though. Your insurance company has a bottom line to take care of, if it were riskier for them to insure someone 9 miles away from where you live it's likely that they would charge more there, not HALF as much. You may also have numbers to back up the claims of your area having lower crime rates and stolen cars. It just feels like you think it's true.

P.S. Careful with joking about the word "raped" in that one, god forbid you offend someone!

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:But that is moot, the fact is that smart people change their minds, dumb people are incapable of doing so.
Entirely true, you know for arguing against me presenting facts, you really suck

Not true. There are intelligent people who stubbornly will not change their minds, and dumb people who will. I'm really only arguing this to show you that your opinion is not always a fact and that it's completely pompous of you to think that it is.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:Tanc, even with facts you cannot face reality, GM closing plants killed Flint, but Michael Moore went after the wrong target. The UAW is what killed automanufacturing in Flint Michigan but he would not dare attack a left wing bastion of power.
Oh yeah, you think that GM decided to screw Flitn Michigan for giggles? Hell the UAW spent so much time patting itself on the back that they voted against things that would keep factories open. I lived through it, it is fact.

And my grandparents lived through it, and I lived not far from it... Your opinion is that the UAW is to blame and that poor, altruistic GM had no other choice than to do what they did. Michael Moore felt differently. Here is another place where your opinions clash.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:Now for a fact, [Moore and Limbaugh] are both drama queens, and that is your issue of denial not mine, if you think either is a passionate human being with very little self interest who is willing to hear everyone out, you are decidedly wrong.
Yeah good old boys, both of them filled with the milk of human kindness.

I don't see you refuting my assertion that the remark was pure opinion. But that's because you can't.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:Umm Forthe, you would not have backed the US under a republican president unless Iraq detonated a nuclear device in Toronto. I love you and think you are a great guy, but THAT is a fact.
Gotta Love Forthe, but he is decidedly against GW

So Forthe will/has never back[ed] the US under a republican president, or you don't think that he will? I guess Forthe can answer that one.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:I lived in Flint during the time period he filmed, and the following is fact.

70% of what he depicted occured BEFORE 1986 when he stated, implied or inferred that it did.
Most of the timeline was inaccurate
The Rabbit chick lives in Clio, which does not even border on Flint, that is like blaming things that happen in New York on Virginia.
The people being evicted, staged

Also all fact

True, you are bordering on some facts there, I may have been a bit hasty in including that one. I would like to add though that I'd consider Clio close enough to flint to consider it "bordering". It's a town of a couple thousand like 10 miles from a city that used to be pretty big.

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:Michael Moore - Stupid Fat Environment Ruining Druggie White repressed homosexual who alters facts and reality to build propaganda against those he dislikes.

Rush Limbaugh - Stupid Fat Environment Ruining Druggie White repressed homosexual who alters facts and reality to build propaganda against those he dislikes.

(now before anyone gets on the homosexual thing, I did not say it was bad, the fact that they are in denial IS bad however.)
Okay here is one opinion mixed with fact

Heh, that's all opinion.

Are you still going to keep claiming that you're the king of facts? Most of the times that you have said something was a fact it really wasn't even close. Just because you believe in something strongly doesn't make it the truth. I'm not even saying that I totally disagree with all of your opinions in this post, merely that they are virtually all opinion instead of fact.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » June 24, 2004, 6:02 pm

Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:
Most of the Canadian posters here are rational, intelligent and logical, but Kyoukan is rabid and hating, and that is fact not conjecture or opinion.

Prove this not to be factual

Well, I'll have to send kyoukan in to get some tests done but I don't think that she has rabies...

For fuck's sake man, that is absolutely your opinion. And check out the meaning of fact, it's something that is true, not something that I cannot prove to not be true. You think she's rabid and hating; I disagree.

...for the record, see definition 2 or 3...

rab·id ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rbd)
adj.

1. Of or affected by rabies.
2. Raging; uncontrollable: rabid thirst.
3. Extremely zealous or enthusiastic; fanatical: a rabid football fan.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 24, 2004, 6:22 pm

Wait, do you seriously believe I didn't understand what he meant by the word rabid?

I was just being silly with that first line, that's why I put the ellipsis and the extra space in there.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 24, 2004, 6:25 pm

Pahreyia wrote:
Kylere wrote:
Kylere wrote:
Most of the Canadian posters here are rational, intelligent and logical, but Kyoukan is rabid and hating, and that is fact not conjecture or opinion.

Prove this not to be factual

Well, I'll have to send kyoukan in to get some tests done but I don't think that she has rabies...

For fuck's sake man, that is absolutely your opinion. And check out the meaning of fact, it's something that is true, not something that I cannot prove to not be true. You think she's rabid and hating; I disagree.
This new learning amazes me Sir Bedivere. Explain again how sheeps bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes!
...for the record, see definition 2 or 3...

rab·id ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rbd)
adj.

1. Of or affected by rabies.
2. Raging; uncontrollable: rabid thirst.
3. Extremely zealous or enthusiastic; fanatical: a rabid football fan.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » June 24, 2004, 6:38 pm

Sylvus wrote:Wait, do you seriously believe I didn't understand what he meant by the word rabid?

I was just being silly with that first line, that's why I put the ellipsis and the extra space in there.

Every other counterpoint was made intelligently. it just seemed that you were being facetious in bringing up that point. I was merely stating for the record that his choice of adjectives was not used in improper context.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 24, 2004, 7:15 pm

Pahreyia wrote:
Forthe wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Anal sex is perfectly normal. Isn't it.....gay people?

Anal sex isn't an uncommon act among straight people. Anyway nice derail.

I probably should give a fuck if Saddam was tortured or not but I don't.
but... he was captured as part of a war propogated on lies! he should be reinstated as president of the country because GW lied about WMDs and like almost a thousand people died already and it's an illegal war and prisoners were abused and the liberal media reported it all totally fair and balanced and stuff and Al Frankin's totally right and Saddam was abused and we're only in it for the oil and yeah.. it's all an illegal war anyways so he should be released and placed back in power.

Why the 180° suddenly Forthe?

You seem to be one of those simpletons that equate being against the invasion means you are a fanboy of Saddam. I was against the invasion, because without real proof of wmd the loss of innocent lives was unjustified, in spite of Saddam. That has always been my stance.

As to Saddam being tortured. In my mind I consider this like I would a sodomizing pedaphile being raped in prison. Yeah its wrong, its against the law.....but I don't really give a damn.

Is that a 180°?