Bush announces acceleration of $15billion AIDS Drug program

[Kylere]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... aids_x.htm


Yep image polishing, not gonna take hold I am willing to bet

[Dregor Thule]

So where exactly is he getting this money? I mean it's great to be spending money on this kind of thing, but I can think of some other money that would have gone great in this area as well!

[Niffoni]

About time. This is a major health crisis that will affect the whole world in the long-term. I'd like to see Canada doing more on this.

By the way, has anyone heard about this study some health science dudes are doing in third world nations with some kind of pre-intercourse preventative treatment for women? I guess they tried it on several hundred sexually active women over a fairly long period, and none of them contracted HIV while using it. Obviously it's years away from being widely accepted even if it's the real deal, but the results are very encouraging.

[Kylere]

Really though, I am in a committed relationship with a loving woman. AIDS means about as much to me in terms of importance as Rush Limbaughs health does.

15Billion divided by 55 million school children from K-12 is 273 bucks per school kid in the US, that is like a $500 dollar savings bond towards college for each one.

[Cartalas]

Really though, I am in a committed relationship with a loving woman. AIDS means about as much to me in terms of importance as Rush Limbaughs health does.

15Billion divided by 55 million school children from K-12 is 273 bucks per school kid in the US, that is like a $500 dollar savings bond towards college for each one.

STFU now!!!! did you say the same thing about cancer,Polio? News flash bucky beaver AIDS is not transferd by sexual contact only.

Wait Nevermind your right we should not spend any money on Aids, I just hope you take your Mullet Mobile out for a spin one day and get in a accident not enough to kill you but just enough to give you a blood transfusion.

[murr]

Feels strange agreeing with Cart, but I'm going to have to back him up - that was a pretty ignorant and idiotic thing to say, Kylere.

[Fredonia Coldheart]

Really though, I am in a committed relationship with a loving woman. AIDS means about as much to me in terms of importance as Rush Limbaughs health does.

15Billion divided by 55 million school children from K-12 is 273 bucks per school kid in the US, that is like a $500 dollar savings bond towards college for each one.

So what you are saying is - you would rather have a measly $500 than possibly save millions of lives.

[Kylere]

This is not to cure AIDS, this is to buy drugs. I would back 15billion spent on researching a cure, not for palliatives for non Americans. Let their own goverments buy them their drugs, hell we have shitty prescription drug coverage in the US, how can anyone justify spending this money outside the US when people die each year in the United States because they cannot afford the prescriptions they need to live.

Yes you can catch AIDS via blood transfusions, but if I needed one tomorrow I would not worry about it because it is screened. The biggest AIDS problem right now is in Africa, where much of this money is focused. I have seen the special reports, and they all indicate it is a refusal to alter lifestyle that is causing the wide spread grwoth of AIDS in Africa.

Education and research is the key to curing diseases. You cannot have it both ways, if we are supposed to help the entire world, then so be it, if we are supposed to help the US then so be it.

All I am really doing is agreeing with Kyoukan, that the US needs to mind its own business.


Umm mullet mobile? fuck you

[Cartalas]

This is not to cure AIDS, this is to buy drugs. I would back 15billion spent on researching a cure, not for palliatives for non Americans. Let their own goverments buy them their drugs, hell we have shitty prescription drug coverage in the US, how can anyone justify spending this money outside the US when people die each year in the United States because they cannot afford the prescriptions they need to live.

Yes you can catch AIDS via blood transfusions, but if I needed one tomorrow I would not worry about it because it is screened. The biggest AIDS problem right now is in Africa, where much of this money is focused. I have seen the special reports, and they all indicate it is a refusal to alter lifestyle that is causing the wide spread grwoth of AIDS in Africa.

Education and research is the key to curing diseases. You cannot have it both ways, if we are supposed to help the entire world, then so be it, if we are supposed to help the US then so be it.

All I am really doing is agreeing with Kyoukan, that the US needs to mind its own business.


Umm mullet mobile? fuck you

"The biggest AIDS problem right now is in Africa, where much of this money is focused."

"Bush said he would seek the immediate release of $500 million in emergency aid to 15 targeted countries."

[Kylere]

Damn Cartalas that post had no point, no wonder you get pwned by the liberals so much.

What part of I knew it was going to Africa was not clear from my post? This is not research this is a 15billion dollar bandaid.

"The president also said he would take $20 million from other programs to provide drugs to American HIV/AIDS patients unable to afford them and waiting for help."

Nice to know Americans are going to get 20 of 500 million. As Kyoukan says, the Us should not be involved overseas, we should spend all 500 million in the US.

[Cartalas]

Damn Cartalas that post had no point, no wonder you get pwned by the liberals so much.

What part of I knew it was going to Africa was not clear from my post? This is not research this is a 15billion dollar bandaid.

"The president also said he would take $20 million from other programs to provide drugs to American HIV/AIDS patients unable to afford them and waiting for help."

Nice to know Americans are going to get 20 of 500 million. As Kyoukan says, the Us should not be involved overseas, we should spend all 500 million in the US.

Re-Read the Story

"The president also said he would take $20 million from other programs to provide drugs to American HIV/AIDS patients unable to afford them and waiting for help.

And he called on Congress to renew the Ryan White CARE Act, which provides funds to help low-income and uninsured Americans with HIV and AIDS. The law expires next year."

The US is not getting 20 million of the 15 Billion!!

And your comment of Africa getting a majority of the money was false, 15 countries are getting aid not just african countries.


Also show me where the story stated that the 15 billion is slated just for drugs and not research?

[Kylere]

Nine billion dollars is in an emergency fund devoted to Botswana, Ethiopia, Guyana, Haiti, Ivory Coast, Kenya, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria, Rwanda, South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia and now Vietnam. (from http://www.whitehouse.gov )

Can you count? Guess what the majority of those countries are? in Africa maybe?

This is boondoogle, it upholds the costs of anti AIDS drugs, and does very little to achieve a cure. The best result would be from lowering the cost of AIDS drugs rather than buying them at the overvalued amounts US drug manufacturers are charging. Or dumping it all into research, 15 billion is more than Jerry has raised for his kids in the entire history of his weekends, maybe if it were to be directed into a cure rather than a bandaid it would achieve something. but as it stands it would be better spent on the overall education of the United States, because as Kyoukan has said we need to mind our own business.

Hell Kenya gets three times what the us does http://allafrica.com/stories/200406230730.html and 55% of that is to drugs, 15 per cent for the care and support of the patients to live a more comfortable life, 10 per cent for the support of orphans and vulnerable children and 20 per cent for prevention. How much of that is research into a cure? and how much is giving a man a fish rather than teaching them to do so. I agree with the money for orphans and vulnerable children, and the money for prevention, but where is the research?

The United States did not invent AIDS, we have people suffering from it also, and we need a cure, not a quick fix. Even AIDS activist agree.

Several groups noted that only $1 billion of the money will go to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. ( http://www.malawihere.com/viewnews.asp? ... pageno=594 )

''The net effect is to continue to delay the delivery of life-saving drugs to the most needy'', said Salih Booker, executive director of Africa Action, a Washington-based grassroots network that has often criticised the administration's anti-AIDS plan.

''It looks to us like an elaborate ruse to protect the interests of the patent-holding U.S. drug companies while, at the same time, undermining the World Health Organisation's (WHO) own approval process'', he said.

''Instead of reinforcing the WHO's pre-qualification process'', said Paul Zeitz, director of the Global AIDS Alliance'', ''they are slowing things down by creating a redundant and parallel U.S.-led review process. ''It's an oxymoron to call this a fast-track initiative when the WHO has already approved these drugs for use''. ( http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23780 )

[Cartalas]

Nine billion dollars is in an emergency fund devoted to Botswana, Ethiopia, Guyana, Haiti, Ivory Coast, Kenya, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria, Rwanda, South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia and now Vietnam. (from http://www.whitehouse.gov )

Can you count? Guess what the majority of those countries are? in Africa maybe?

This is boondoogle, it upholds the costs of anti AIDS drugs, and does very little to achieve a cure. The best result would be from lowering the cost of AIDS drugs rather than buying them at the overvalued amounts US drug manufacturers are charging. Or dumping it all into research, 15 billion is more than Jerry has raised for his kids in the entire history of his weekends, maybe if it were to be directed into a cure rather than a bandaid it would achieve something. but as it stands it would be better spent on the overall education of the United States, because as Kyoukan has said we need to mind our own business.

Hell Kenya gets three times what the us does http://allafrica.com/stories/200406230730.html and 55% of that is to drugs, 15 per cent for the care and support of the patients to live a more comfortable life, 10 per cent for the support of orphans and vulnerable children and 20 per cent for prevention. How much of that is research into a cure? and how much is giving a man a fish rather than teaching them to do so. I agree with the money for orphans and vulnerable children, and the money for prevention, but where is the research?

The United States did not invent AIDS, we have people suffering from it also, and we need a cure, not a quick fix. Even AIDS activist agree.

Several groups noted that only $1 billion of the money will go to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria. ( http://www.malawihere.com/viewnews.asp? ... pageno=594 )

''The net effect is to continue to delay the delivery of life-saving drugs to the most needy'', said Salih Booker, executive director of Africa Action, a Washington-based grassroots network that has often criticised the administration's anti-AIDS plan.

''It looks to us like an elaborate ruse to protect the interests of the patent-holding U.S. drug companies while, at the same time, undermining the World Health Organisation's (WHO) own approval process'', he said.

''Instead of reinforcing the WHO's pre-qualification process'', said Paul Zeitz, director of the Global AIDS Alliance'', ''they are slowing things down by creating a redundant and parallel U.S.-led review process. ''It's an oxymoron to call this a fast-track initiative when the WHO has already approved these drugs for use''. ( http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23780 )

Ok I get where your going on the Africa thing, I was under the impression that you were saying Africa eas getting all the money(Not that it mattered), they are people too. But your comment on this money being used only for Aids drugs and not research is false.

"The President's continued commitment to combating HIV/AIDS domestically is reinforced in his budget for FY 2005 with $17.1 billion in funding for domestic AIDS research, care, prevention, and treatment "


See the word research in the aboeve quote form your own reference site?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 623-1.html

[archeiron]

And your comment of Africa getting a majority of the money was false, 15 countries are getting aid not just african countries.

Just for your information, I believe that 13 of the original 14 AIDS focus countries are in Africa and the other is in the Carribean. The new 15th is to be Vietnam. As a result, it isn't entirely unfair to say that a lionshare of the money for those countries is going to Africa. This comment was added for clarification; I am not expressing any opinion on this subject, so don't assume I am arguing with you, please, Cartalas.

[Kylere]

Cartalas, this 15billion has nothing to do with the standard expenditures, it is a poor attempt to BUY votes and BUY goodwill towards America. This 15 billion by the time it threads its way through 15 different banana republics will be the basis of the next 411 scams, because it is being poured into channels that will divert, reorganize, and steal as much as possible. If the Pres wants to blow 15 billion he could do it on tax cuts, or on direct research or hell offer it as a bounty, First Company or Individual to Cure AIDS gets 10 billion as a reward and 5 billion to use to give everyone that wants it a preventative shot.

This 15 billion is being misspent by a President who has listened to poor advice and fucked up royally. Hell I voted for him, and I can be honest enough to admit he is a fuckup, why can't you?

[masteen]

Kylere is right. This money would have been better funnelled into the WHO.

[Cartalas]

And your comment of Africa getting a majority of the money was false, 15 countries are getting aid not just african countries.

Just for your information, I believe that 13 of the original 14 AIDS focus countries are in Africa and the other is in the Carribean. The new 15th is to be Vietnam. As a result, it isn't entirely unfair to say that a lionshare of the money for those countries is going to Africa. This comment was added for clarification; I am not expressing any opinion on this subject, so don't assume I am arguing with you, please, Cartalas.

No I got that part Archeiron Thanks

[Cartalas]

Cartalas, this 15billion has nothing to do with the standard expenditures, it is a poor attempt to BUY votes and BUY goodwill towards America. This 15 billion by the time it threads its way through 15 different banana republics will be the basis of the next 411 scams, because it is being poured into channels that will divert, reorganize, and steal as much as possible. If the Pres wants to blow 15 billion he could do it on tax cuts, or on direct research or hell offer it as a bounty, First Company or Individual to Cure AIDS gets 10 billion as a reward and 5 billion to use to give everyone that wants it a preventative shot.

This 15 billion is being misspent by a President who has listened to poor advice and fucked up royally. Hell I voted for him, and I can be honest enough to admit he is a fuckup, why can't you?

Kylere Im not arguing with you on how the money is being spent, I guess in most part I agree with you that the money needs to be spent on research and a little less on drugs. But you are doing a 180 on helping people with Aids. Here is your second post on this topic

"Really though, I am in a committed relationship with a loving woman. AIDS means about as much to me in terms of importance as Rush Limbaughs health does.

15Billion divided by 55 million school children from K-12 is 273 bucks per school kid in the US, that is like a $500 dollar savings bond towards college for each one."


That is the comment that got me started, then you changed your mind or reconsidered your heartless post and said the reason you were against it was the way it was being used. So which Kylere am I talking to?


1. The Kylere in Post #2 who couldnt care less about people with Aids and Africa?

2. Or Kylere #2 The one who seems to care as long as the spending is productive?


If its #2 then fine I agree with you, The money should be sent but sent in a proper helpful way.

[Kylere]

Really, personally it does not affect me in a direct way, it affects me in a John Donne "No man is an Island" way. I have been to Africa, and fed the starving people there, I have seen them die in their own feces and starvation bothers me much more than AIDS does. AIDS in Africa is primarily spread through heterosexual means, and mostly by older men buying young girls for sex. Yeah I think they need drugs so they can live longer and increase the spread of a deadly disease

fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/11291.pdf covers it pretty well. Yeah I think the guys sleeping with 12 year olds need more lifespan so they can infect more Do you realize that due largely to AIDS much of Africa is LOSING population?

It DISGUSTS me to see 15 billion spent in ways that even the activists wanting money say is a waste, when we could be using it to care for, feed, educate, train Americansm, develop oil alternatives etc. . So yes you can solidly say that I would not begrudge an effective expenditure, but if we are going to throw it mostly away we would be much better off using it in the US than letting it line the hands and pockets of corrupt third world dictators.

This is a waste of enough money to give every single American 50 bucks in cash. 50 bucks is not a lot individually, but our President is tossing it out to buy votes from the ignorant and I think it would be much better spent.

We need a CURE not a bandaid.

[Sylvus]

I'm willing to bet that some of the money only spent on the treatment of AIDS will at least indirectly make its way back into research for curing the disease. That and perhaps some of the people who have AIDS won't die from it. Both of those are positives in my book. You may be at pretty low risk for catching AIDS, but what about your daughters who are going to be start having sex in the short-term future? Personally, I'd rather gamble $15B on curing the disease or at the very least pump it into treatment so that my children won't have to worry about AIDS being a fatal disease, rather than giving them a savings bond that will barely pay for one semester's books.

[murr]

Okay, that I can agree with. I wasn't happy when you said AIDS was irrelevant to you and you would have preferred a college grant.

[Arborealus]

A lot of the research now needs to be tested...multiple drug regimes etc...

I agree that this 15bil is largely image polishing which is not to say that some good research may come of it...

My biggest complaint is his decision to allocate funds to vietnam as opposed to India...There is absolutely no way that decision is based on needs/use modeling...India has an enormous epidemic relative to Vietnam's incidence...But India is on Bush's shit list since he's sucking up to Pakistan atm....

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Really though, I am in a committed relationship with a loving woman. AIDS means about as much to me in terms of importance as Rush Limbaughs health does.

15Billion divided by 55 million school children from K-12 is 273 bucks per school kid in the US, that is like a $500 dollar savings bond towards college for each one.

And your woman was a virgin who had never had any invasive procedures done in her entire lifetime and has been screened every 30 days to ensure she does not have AIDS right? And you may never in you rlifetime inadvertently get stuck with a needle or any other object that could be infected right? You must have moved into a bubble up there in Flint.

I do agree that any money like this should be pumped into the U.S. and not be spent helping other countries until we fix our own problems.

[*~*stragi*~*]

This is not to cure AIDS, this is to buy drugs. I would back 15billion spent on researching a cure, not for palliatives for non Americans. Let their own goverments buy them their drugs, hell we have shitty prescription drug coverage in the US, how can anyone justify spending this money outside the US when people die each year in the United States because they cannot afford the prescriptions they need to live.

Yes you can catch AIDS via blood transfusions, but if I needed one tomorrow I would not worry about it because it is screened. The biggest AIDS problem right now is in Africa, where much of this money is focused. I have seen the special reports, and they all indicate it is a refusal to alter lifestyle that is causing the wide spread grwoth of AIDS in Africa.

Education and research is the key to curing diseases. You cannot have it both ways, if we are supposed to help the entire world, then so be it, if we are supposed to help the US then so be it.

All I am really doing is agreeing with Kyoukan, that the US needs to mind its own business.


Umm mullet mobile? fuck you

Gunna agree, here in Arizona there trying to push some bullshit about health care for illegal immagrints, when we don't even have fucking healthcare for ourselves? Trying to put up waystations in the desert so they can illegally migrate? Fuck that, die in the desert. Theres far too much shit wrong here to be wasting billions of dollars on other people's problems.

[Kylere]

Really though, I am in a committed relationship with a loving woman. AIDS means about as much to me in terms of importance as Rush Limbaughs health does.

15Billion divided by 55 million school children from K-12 is 273 bucks per school kid in the US, that is like a $500 dollar savings bond towards college for each one.

And your woman was a virgin who had never had any invasive procedures done in her entire lifetime and has been screened every 30 days to ensure she does not have AIDS right? And you may never in you rlifetime inadvertently get stuck with a needle or any other object that could be infected right? You must have moved into a bubble up there in Flint.

I do agree that any money like this should be pumped into the U.S. and not be spent helping other countries until we fix our own problems.

If I caught AIDS I would rather there was a cure, than having 15 billion wasted in ineffective expeditures.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

It's a lot of money for sure. Quite a sacrifice by the US for the better good of the world and the future. It's what we do. I support this just like I support the sacrifices we are making in the middle east for the better good of the world and the future.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Spending $15 billion on AIDS is a good thing. Pumping it into keeping lion food in Africa alive is a whole different story. I am all for letting the witch doctors cure all their ills and spend the cash helping our own people.

[Arborealus]

Spending $15 billion on AIDS is a good thing. Pumping it into keeping lion food in Africa alive is a whole different story. I am all for letting the witch doctors cure all their ills and spend the cash helping our own people.

Ahhh so people in Africa are Lion food and they still have witch doctors...

Funny I thought they were humans just like you and me...

[*~*stragi*~*]

Spending $15 billion on AIDS is a good thing. Pumping it into keeping lion food in Africa alive is a whole different story. I am all for letting the witch doctors cure all their ills and spend the cash helping our own people.

Ahhh so people in Africa are Lion food and they still have witch doctors...

Funny I thought they were humans just like you and me...

Thats not what he's disputing arb.. there are humans here that need that money, and it is our own money after all, it should be spent to help US first.

[Arborealus]

Spending $15 billion on AIDS is a good thing. Pumping it into keeping lion food in Africa alive is a whole different story. I am all for letting the witch doctors cure all their ills and spend the cash helping our own people.

Ahhh so people in Africa are Lion food and they still have witch doctors...

Funny I thought they were humans just like you and me...

Thats not what he's disputing arb.. there are humans here that need that money, and it is our own money after all, it should be spent to help US first.

I was addressing his characterization of people in Africa...

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Are you telling me they don't have witch doctors? I am saying that we should leave those people to live as they have for the last 1000 years. Nature has a way of evening things out in places like that. They overpopulate the food supply and something comes along to even it out. If they can't find a cure in their own way, then we should not be intervening by pumping cash over there to give them food and medicines. That is only going to make the overpopulation worse...and lead to more bad things.

[Arborealus]

Are you telling me they don't have witch doctors? I am saying that we should leave those people to live as they have for the last 1000 years. Nature has a way of evening things out in places like that. They overpopulate the food supply and something comes along to even it out. If they can't find a cure in their own way, then we should not be intervening by pumping cash over there to give them food and medicines. That is only going to make the overpopulation worse...and lead to more bad things.

Heh eugenics...

[Arborealus]

Ok lets look at this from an epidemiological perspective...

1) The highest incidence of HIV infection is in Africa/India

2) The highest probability of an immune or more dangerous strain occurs where the bulk of the infected patients are and where the spread is uncontrolled

3) We are easily capable of greatly reducing incidence in those areas (we have done it here) thus reducing greatly the probability that it will mutate or we will fail to notice that mutation until it is wild...

4) A wild variant of HIV could easily prove much more dangerous globally...

5) "Its just happening to Africans" is identical to the "it's just happening to homosexuals" attitude of the 80's which bought us a huge pandemic

15 billion for research treatment then and we would probably much better off today...

Any way you look at this 15 billion is a reasonable investment...

[Kylere]

Ok lets look at this from an epidemiological perspective...

1) The highest incidence of HIV infection is in Africa/India

2) The highest probability of an immune or more dangerous strain occurs where the bulk of the infected patients are and where the spread is uncontrolled

3) We are easily capable of greatly reducing incidence in those areas (we have done it here) thus reducing greatly the probability that it will mutate or we will fail to notice that mutation until it is wild...

4) A wild variant of HIV could easily prove much more dangerous globally...

5) "Its just happening to Africans" is identical to the "it's just happening to homosexuals" attitude of the 80's which bought us a huge pandemic

15 billion for research treatment then and we would probably much better off today...

Any way you look at this 15 billion is a reasonable investment...

Okay you speak as if you have specific knowledge of biological interaction of HIV and its behavior. question...If people infected with AIDS live longer due to drugs, but are not cured, and have proven themselves to be in the majority irresponsible about using protection, will that not in fact lead to increased spread of disease, thus actually increasing the dangers? Would it not in fact be better to spend the money on prevention and cure rather than keeping people alive on a chemical cocktail?

I realize I sound a bit heartless about those who have already caught HIV, but I have read like 50 reports today and they all agree that is is societal not medical factors causing the spread of HIV in Africa. If people cannot be bothered to use condoms because they do not like the feel of them, then why should the taxpayer support them continuing this behavior?

[Arborealus]

Ok lets look at this from an epidemiological perspective...

1) The highest incidence of HIV infection is in Africa/India

2) The highest probability of an immune or more dangerous strain occurs where the bulk of the infected patients are and where the spread is uncontrolled

3) We are easily capable of greatly reducing incidence in those areas (we have done it here) thus reducing greatly the probability that it will mutate or we will fail to notice that mutation until it is wild...

4) A wild variant of HIV could easily prove much more dangerous globally...

5) "Its just happening to Africans" is identical to the "it's just happening to homosexuals" attitude of the 80's which bought us a huge pandemic

15 billion for research treatment then and we would probably much better off today...

Any way you look at this 15 billion is a reasonable investment...

Okay you speak as if you have specific knowledge of biological interaction of HIV and its behavior. question...If people infected with AIDS live longer due to drugs, but are not cured, and have proven themselves to be in the majority irresponsible about using protection, will that not in fact lead to increased spread of disease, thus actually increasing the dangers? Would it not in fact be better to spend the money on prevention and cure rather than keeping people alive on a chemical cocktail?

I realize I sound a bit heartless about those who have already caught HIV, but I have read like 50 reports today and they all agree that is is societal not medical factors causing the spread of HIV in Africa. If people cannot be bothered to use condoms because they do not like the feel of them, then why should the taxpayer support them continuing this behavior?

Ummm why would you assume these people have proven particularly irresponsible?...You are assuming they have been made aware of the virus...Information does not move as rapidly in the third world...Many of these people do not understand what a virus is...In point of fact awareness and education is one of the reasons for this funding...

You said you had been to Africa right?...Did you happen to notice how common Eckerds are on the continent?...Did you notice that a condom costs a week's wages in some places (of course in many of those places there is 50% unemployment...)

And we still get new infections in the US in people who have all the information, who have ready access to preventative measures...Its a bit inaccurate to characterize a group of people with in some cases no formal schooling for not understanding disease process...

And no you cannot develop a cure for a virus...and vaccines are very hard to develop especially in retroviruses (since they actually work inside cells....Lets look at say the Flu...Have we cured it yet?...Nope they change and they change very quickly relative to humans...Going through a million generations of evolution in a year...

So yeah we should work like hell on a vaccine etc...should we count on it ...hell no...We need to try and control the virus spread and watch its mutation very closely...

You cannot let a virus spread and mutate without at least attempting to slow it...Especially one that uses the most fundamental human behaviour for vectoring...It will bite you on the ass and the next time it does it may well kill you...

Actually the common cold may be a better example in terms of causal agent...Though retrovirii are arguably the most elusive pathogens...

[masteen]

Bullshit, Arb. If this was being pumped into a unified program, I'd agree with you.

Also, it's not like we're getting a lot of help from their own governments. The Pres of S. Africa defends scientists who maintain that AIDS is not cause by HIV. The Kenyan gov't didn't endorse condoms as a preventative until 1999. It's still a common belief in South Africa that having sex with a virgin will cure a man of VDs.

I'm sorry these people are ignorant and live in poverty. I'm even more sorry to see $15 billion pissed away on programs that AREN'T WORKING.

[Arborealus]

Bullshit, Arb. If this was being pumped into a unified program, I'd agree with you.

Also, it's not like we're getting a lot of help from their own governments. The Pres of S. Africa defends scientists who maintain that AIDS is not cause by HIV. The Kenyan gov't didn't endorse condoms as a preventative until 1999. It's still a common belief in South Africa that having sex with a virgin will cure a man of VDs.

I'm sorry these people are ignorant and live in poverty. I'm even more sorry to see $15 billion pissed away on programs that AREN'T WORKING.

What programs would those be? And Do I give a fuck if the government of Haiti cares? No because you know what thhe virus that evolves there can kill me here...In fact it's killed a lot of folks here already hasn't it?...In spite of the huge educational advantages we have...You might stop a missle...You won't stop a virus...

[Kylere]

But Arbor, the drugs they are spending the cash on do not slow the virus, they merely lengthen the time someone can live before succumbing to the virus. They do not prevent the spread of the disease, they do not prevent any deaths.

"But African nations spend only $165 million a year to combat AIDS, and it all comes from the industrialized nations. James Wolfensohn, president of the World Bank, told the U.N. Security Council in January 2000 that an effective and comprehensive prevention program for sub-Saharan Africa would cost $2.3 billion a year." http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/aids/stories/overview/

So why not spend this 15 billion at a pace of 2.3 billion a year, the World Bank has identified the cost, and we have the money, why are we spending it on drugs instead of in a way that the UN and the World Bank have both identified as the most effective?

"Girls and women are often forced to have sex with men in male-dominated African cultures. In fact, says journalist Thomas, in some areas infected men "believe they can be cured by having sex with a virgin, and 12-year-old girls become infected."" (same CNN citation)

Wouldn't it be better to educate people than to keep alive those who are part of this problem?

"In South Africa, where one of every 10 people has AIDS, President Thabo Mbeki has confounded many by opposing the use of AZT, one of the most successful AIDS drugs, and by appointing an AIDS council that lacks medical researchers or AIDS experts." (same CNN citation)

In light of this, why give them money to misuse?

Really what it comes down to is cowboyism on the part of Bush, this will not fix anything, except to add 15billion to the deficit.

[Arborealus]

But Arbor, the drugs they are spending the cash on do not slow the virus, they merely lengthen the time someone can live before succumbing to the virus. They do not prevent the spread of the disease, they do not prevent any deaths.

"But African nations spend only $165 million a year to combat AIDS, and it all comes from the industrialized nations. James Wolfensohn, president of the World Bank, told the U.N. Security Council in January 2000 that an effective and comprehensive prevention program for sub-Saharan Africa would cost $2.3 billion a year." http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/aids/stories/overview/

So why not spend this 15 billion at a pace of 2.3 billion a year, the World Bank has identified the cost, and we have the money, why are we spending it on drugs instead of in a way that the UN and the World Bank have both identified as the most effective?

"Girls and women are often forced to have sex with men in male-dominated African cultures. In fact, says journalist Thomas, in some areas infected men "believe they can be cured by having sex with a virgin, and 12-year-old girls become infected."" (same CNN citation)

Wouldn't it be better to educate people than to keep alive those who are part of this problem?

"In South Africa, where one of every 10 people has AIDS, President Thabo Mbeki has confounded many by opposing the use of AZT, one of the most successful AIDS drugs, and by appointing an AIDS council that lacks medical researchers or AIDS experts." (same CNN citation)

In light of this, why give them money to misuse?

Really what it comes down to is cowboyism on the part of Bush, this will not fix anything, except to add 15billion to the deficit.

When you get an infection do you go to a banker to tell you what to do about it?

I agree that in many cases giving the money directly to the governments in question would be throwing good money after bad...It would be more reasonable to set up educational/medical programs over which we have direct oversight...

But you cannot simply go in an do that in spite of the government...That will get you dead in some cases in the third world...

Sure you can say fuck 'em...if their government won't help em...But again this will not stop the spread of the virus nor it's mutation...

Did we say fuck the chinese when we realized that most influenza epidemics originate in china? Nope and as a result we have a vaccine which is redeveloped every year and is developed in china prior to our flu season...Do we still get the flu? Yup...Do people still die of the flu? yup...Was keeping a working relationship with the Chinese incredibly difficult? Yup...but we have the best possible situation... a virus which kills far fewer people anually than it did prior to our work on controlling it within china and vaccinating here and there...

You can keep looking for a magic bullet and I surely hope for it...But I'm not going to bet my life on it...

[Kylere]

So you are saying that you agree this is not the best way to go about it, and the money could be spent on things that would make a much greater difference Arbor?

Because that is what I am saying.

[Jice Virago]

I am going to have to side with Kylere on this one. Africa, in its current state, is not worth sending what is essentially not a cure, but a prolonger of the inevitable. Until their culture changes to accept the realities of the 21st century, no amount of humanitarian aid (for AIDS or otherwise) is going to make a difference. If that region is going to turn around, then change is going to have to come from within. Anything we do until then is a waste of time and resources that would be better applied domestically.

[Fredonia Coldheart]

This is not to cure AIDS, this is to buy drugs. I would back 15billion spent on researching a cure, not for palliatives for non Americans. Let their own goverments buy them their drugs, hell we have shitty prescription drug coverage in the US, how can anyone justify spending this money outside the US when people die each year in the United States because they cannot afford the prescriptions they need to live.

Sorry - didn't read the article so didn't realize it wasn't for research. I'll hold comments in the future if I just read other's posts instead of the article. Have to agree with Kylere on this one.

The spread of AIDS in third world countries would be greatly reduced if only the damn Catholic Church would reverse it's idiotic policy on birth control. All the education and drugs in the world will do no good there until they accept the use of condoms.

[Arborealus]

So you are saying that you agree this is not the best way to go about it, and the money could be spent on things that would make a much greater difference Arbor?

Because that is what I am saying.

I am saying that we have to assess how the programs work where and what we can do to make them work better...can we bypass the government here...can we use it with the WHO in that country and be more effective...

Thats why the decision of Vietnam over India floors me...Clearly we can work with the Indian government and there is a lot of work to do there...Vietnam has a much lower per capita infection rate and incidence and a government that is questionable in their cooperativeness...

No we can't just ignore any country...sure we need to have oversight where we spend it...yeah we are going to have to deal with some loss of the money to corrupt governments etc etc...But we have to work to the extent possible everywhere...

15 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to say what we would spend if say an airborne variant of HIV develops and we don't notice it until...

Mind you an airborne variant is pretty unlikely...but saliva is pretty damn hospitable and most common virii have adapted to it spankingly...This is a relatively new virus to humanity...it hasn't coevolved with us long but it will adapt...How do you suppose it got to us in the first place?...40 years ago this virus did not even infect humans or was non-pathenogenic...it evolved and about 25 years ago it started killing us...a lot of us...using one of the highest probability modes of transmission out there...sex...

So why is bush spending the money? Yeah I agree he's trying to improve his domestic position. Does that mean the money would be a bad investment yes probably in some places...No in some places...do we have to try...absolutely...

HIV has the potential to decimate the human race...we know that...Now I don't necessarily think that human populations couldn't stand significant reduction...But I would prefer that to the extent that we can control it we try...

SARs is a great example of what should have been done 25 years back with AIDs...but we ignored it far too long and now it is going to be tremendously expensive to deal with...the first step in controlling an outbreak after the pathogen has been identified is to stop the spread to the extent possible...we haven't done that successfully yet...

[Kylere]

Arbor, you are still speakign as if this was about "curing AIDS, it is not. This 15 billion will do NOTHING to help if HIV becomes airborne. 55% of the money is going to drugs to extend the lives of those already possessing the disease, I cannot find one example of it going to fund research into a cure.

I agree entirely that incidence of infection and sheer numbers would mean it be more logically assigned to India, this is another reason it should not be done. It is a gimmick, a trick, like putting bondo into a 15 year old car, it keeps it going, and improves the appearance without fixing the hole in the body.

[masteen]

While cooperation with the Chinese regarding the flu was a great thing, the flu and the HIV are very different animals. We don't even have a method of delivery for a vaccine against this type of retrovirus. Africans are never going to assist in developing this vaccine at any stage other then when it comes time to do live human trials.

I would like to see education assistance, but if their own leaders don't believe what our leading doctors and researchers are telling them, WHAT IS THE POINT OF TELLING THE IGNORANT MASSES?

[Arborealus]

Arbor, you are still speakign as if this was about "curing AIDS, it is not. This 15 billion will do NOTHING to help if HIV becomes airborne. 55% of the money is going to drugs to extend the lives of those already possessing the disease, I cannot find one example of it going to fund research into a cure.

I agree entirely that incidence of infection and sheer numbers would mean it be more logically assigned to India, this is another reason it should not be done. It is a gimmick, a trick, like putting bondo into a 15 year old car, it keeps it going, and improves the appearance without fixing the hole in the body.

No this is largely directed towards education which is the only way you will stop or slow the spread (note the infection rate is far lower in educated populaces)

medication - we certainly need more human trials of multidrug regimes and this is a huge N for a sample size...to assess efficacy as extensively as possible

It also puts us in direct contact with physicians from whom we can and do collect samples to analyze potential genetic drift of the virus...the physicians will also be our best bet to spot an active variant early..and we will have a stable network ready to deliver vaccine/cure etc when and if we get them...

I'm saying research is critical...education is critical...and stopping the spread and constantly monitoring are critical...And ultimately it takes all those to cure or control a disease

[Arborealus]

Africans are never going to assist in developing this vaccine at any stage other then when it comes time to do live human trials.

Nonsense...we have extensive, cooperative, successful work on malaria, the ebola variants, and many of the diseases we eradicated in the west in much of africa...

[masteen]

None of which are STDs. Until they show to willingness to either not hump anything that moves or use condoms correctly, we're not going to make a dent in the AIDS epidemic.

[Arborealus]

None of which are STDs. Until they show to willingness to either not hump anything that moves or use condoms correctly, we're not going to make a dent in the AIDS epidemic.

You gonna go show em how to use condoms correctly and pass them out? And you keep saying they hump everything that moves...You suspect they are having more sex than we are?....I think there is a fairly uniform rate of humping globally...we all do it as much as possible...

Do you suspect they are going to understand how viral stds are spread and how they can be prevented without us consistently letting them know...I really would prefer not to wait for some of the more primitive areas to arrive at pathology independently when we can gradually insinuate ourselves and educate them a few at a time...

[masteen]

There you run into the problem with institutionalized ignorance: Their governments don't want them to know stuff. The more backwater and superstitituous the people are, the easier their leaders can manipulate them.