White House releases interrogation memos

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2004, 10:46 pm

Bush said no torture, Rumsfeld ordered coercion.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... tics_x.htm

Okay let me cover the entire debate

Liberals: This was planned to cover Bush and his Master Cheney, and is no surprise to me.

Conservatives: How can you say that, this clearly indicates that Rumsfeld exceeded his authority against the orders of the president.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » June 22, 2004, 10:51 pm

I seriously hope there isn't really a liberal rabid enough to believe that the administration told soldiers "Oh, by the way, if you catch any Arabs, torture the fuck outta them, because that will help further our efforts in Iraq, and could never possibly come back to bite us in the ass". What the fuck would be the point?

Frankly, I'm surprised this goes any higher than some local hotshot asshole. Although if you told me it did, and gave me three guesses, they'd all be Rummy.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 22, 2004, 11:08 pm

Niffoni wrote:I seriously hope there isn't really a liberal rabid enough to believe that the administration told soldiers "Oh, by the way, if you catch any Arabs, torture the fuck outta them, because that will help further our efforts in Iraq, and could never possibly come back to bite us in the ass". .

There are Niff.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » June 22, 2004, 11:20 pm

i can tell you from FIRSTHAND knowledge that no such orders had been given to mistreat prisoners in AF. but what the hell do i know.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 22, 2004, 11:27 pm

Well, consider the arrogance of these men. I think they truely did not expect to get caught, just like they thought occupying another country halfway around the globe would be a lot easier.

Consider also that unless you are the most died in the wool conservative, it is patently obvious that these men have lied in the past to garner public support for war and other activities. There is no reason to assume they would not lie in the future to cover their ass. The establishment of a secluded prison in Cuba suggests that there was a pre planned philosophy of engaging in dubious methods, otherwise why not have the facility on American soil? Every act since the story broke on the prison scandle has been one of denial or evasion, with the only exception being Bush going on arab radio to denounce (but not appologize for, unfortunately) the acts that occured there. There is considerable room for skepticism.

In Bush's defense, he is both stupid and close minded enough to make his ignorance of the situation seem plausable. Reagan basically got away with the same thing when Iran Contra broke. If slick Willy or Bush Sr had allowed a similar thing to happen, they would not be getting the benefit of the doubt. Either way, we won't know more until the trial preceedings start and only if the military decides to let the court martial details go public. If it does come out that Rummy was responsible (which I susect to be the case, but doubt will be proven) for authorizing these things, I expect him to get a nice Nixon era style invitation to resign.

The real problem Rummy is going to have is that by using secret covert field operative directives and extending them to general use, he has a exposed decades long successfully secret operation (the field interrogation of prisoners by covert troops) to public scrutiny. This has already pissed off a lot of military brass and long time pentagon officials (ones that predate the GW reshuffle) by hampering an already suspect US intelligence. Unlike the American public and teh damn dirty liberals, those people have the power to nail his balls to the wall.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » June 22, 2004, 11:31 pm

i can tell you from FIRSTHAND knowledge that no such orders had been given to mistreat prisoners in AF. but what the hell do i know.

Care to elaborate? I doubt you have firsthand knowledge of such orders.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » June 22, 2004, 11:44 pm

i hope they nail his balls with a tack and a sledgehammer.

keverian, i don't care if you believe me. take a trip out for yourself. or just waych the news and get all your info.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » June 22, 2004, 11:53 pm

This just sounds like more people of the administration jumping on bullets in an effort to get Bush another 4 years in office.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » June 23, 2004, 12:15 am

i'm not voting for bush

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 23, 2004, 12:53 am

well at any rate, i dont think it takes a partisan on either side to understand how soldiers in the field might be confused.

also, i am still of the opinion that the Pentagon did authorize some torture because otherwise why would the Pentagon not show Bush the Abu Ghraib images until days before 60 Minutes airs it? They had been trying to cover it up, and it was blowing up in their faces, and they didnt know WTF to do.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » June 23, 2004, 2:30 am

keverian, i don't care if you believe me. take a trip out for yourself. or just waych the news and get all your info.

Don't be a prick, all im saying is that it is not first hand info unless you actually handled documents that would contain such information or if such orders would have passed directly through you. I just want you to elaborate is all, im interested in how you could be so certain such orders were never given. For instance, what position did you hold there?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 23, 2004, 10:11 am

I don't believe Bush knew about it. I truly believe Rumsfeld did and also that he authorized it. Imho Bush is nothing but a puppet on a string who is told only what he needs to know. Rumsfeld on the other hand is one scary person.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » June 23, 2004, 10:23 am

When this issue first broke I said I thought the buck should stop at teh Brig.Gen. in charge of the prison. She came out last week and stated publicly that the orders came from above and she was being made the scapegoat.
Now this.
Interesting.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 23, 2004, 4:41 pm

My favorite Rumsfeldt quote:

"Those people who have been implying that there is an atmospphere of intimidation, had best watch themselves."

That guy is pure fucking evil, for evil's sake. At least Cheney and Bush are in it for the money. Rummy wants blood.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 23, 2004, 4:47 pm

Not just blood, Arab blood!

MUAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAA!!!!!@!!!!!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 23, 2004, 7:20 pm

Jice Virago wrote:My favorite Rumsfeldt quote:

"Those people who have been implying that there is an atmospphere of intimidation, had best watch themselves."

That guy is pure fucking evil, for evil's sake. At least Cheney and Bush are in it for the money. Rummy wants blood.

God forbid the guy have a sense of humor.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 23, 2004, 7:42 pm

It wasn't meant as humor.

He said this in sworn testimony before congress.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 23, 2004, 8:46 pm

Jice Virago wrote:It wasn't meant as humor.

He said this in sworn testimony before congress.

Umm yeah and your point is? You want Howard Stern to be able to say what he pleases over the open air waves, but Rummy can't say a joke under testimony? What do you want, robots? Lighten the fuck up.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » June 23, 2004, 9:01 pm

Oh my God. How can you compare Howard Stern on an airwave saying whatever he wants, to our Secretary of Defense threatening people while under oath? Get a fucking clue.

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » June 23, 2004, 9:04 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Jice Virago wrote:It wasn't meant as humor.

He said this in sworn testimony before congress.
Umm yeah and your point is? You want Howard Stern to be able to say what he pleases over the open air waves, but Rummy can't say a joke under testimony? What do you want, robots? Lighten the fuck up.

While I do appreciate that Rumsfeld was probably joking. I hope that you appreciate that there is a time and a place for things. Accepting that Howard Stern broadcasts over the radio and says what he wants is somewhat different from expecting to hear the Secretary of Defense of the United States of America "joke around" under oath while testifying before the United States Senate. I think that it was probably an ill-timed comment, in this case.

I don't think this qualifies the man as being pure evil, which as everyone knows is mercurial grey liquid that when mixed with ordinary substances can produce truly evil results!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 23, 2004, 9:50 pm

archeiron wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Jice Virago wrote:It wasn't meant as humor.

He said this in sworn testimony before congress.
Umm yeah and your point is? You want Howard Stern to be able to say what he pleases over the open air waves, but Rummy can't say a joke under testimony? What do you want, robots? Lighten the fuck up.
While I do appreciate that Rumsfeld was probably joking. I hope that you appreciate that there is a time and a place for things. Accepting that Howard Stern broadcasts over the radio and says what he wants is somewhat different from expecting to hear the Secretary of Defense of the United States of America "joke around" under oath while testifying before the United States Senate. I think that it was probably an ill-timed comment, in this case.

I don't think this qualifies the man as being pure evil, which as everyone knows is mercurial grey liquid that when mixed with ordinary substances can produce truly evil results!

I dunno. I don't mind that he throws a joke out. I'm sure that setting is very nerve racking. I can appreciate the need to joke to try and feel comfortable in such a tense situation.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 23, 2004, 10:00 pm

jesus, has the sheer volume of your stupidity not consumed you yet?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 23, 2004, 10:27 pm

kyoukan wrote:jesus, has the sheer volume of your stupidity not consumed you yet?

Hot Key #4?

Get some new material or take up a different hobby. Maybe knitting or something.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » June 23, 2004, 10:32 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I dunno. I don't mind that he throws a joke out. I'm sure that setting is very nerve racking. I can appreciate the need to joke to try and feel comfortable in such a tense situation.

It should be nerve racking. You want a light, fun atmosphere when the man in charge of a war has to answer for violations of the Geneva Convention?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 23, 2004, 10:54 pm

Vetiria wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I dunno. I don't mind that he throws a joke out. I'm sure that setting is very nerve racking. I can appreciate the need to joke to try and feel comfortable in such a tense situation.
It should be nerve racking. You want a light, fun atmosphere when the man in charge of a war has to answer for violations of the Geneva Convention?

Did I say it shouldn't be tense? RIF?