No collaboration between Iraq and Al-Qaeda

[Kylere]

Okay Dregor, enough with your far left wing ranting and bullshit, you can suck my cock.

You are waving around this report like a Godly being handed it down from the heavens. READ THE MOTHERFUCKING THING, it never says there is NOTHING at all in the universe that indicates a connection, they said they did not find one.

You cannot keep claiming that failure of this group to find a link means there is no such link. My god you are an ignorant fucker, because they did not find OJ guilty does that mean he is innocent? Because they did not have footage of Bill sticking a cigar in Monica, does that mean it did not happen, because a girl cannot pick her rapist out of a lineup does that mean she was not raped? If you cannot prove someone hit your car, does that mean it was not hit?

I personally think the connection was minimal or merely economic, Bin Laden is an egotist who would not have followed Husseins orders.

S I M P L E L O G I C you dumbfuck

[Cartalas]

Okay Dregor, enough with your far left wing ranting and bullshit, you can suck my cock.

You are waving around this report like a Godly being handed it down from the heavens. READ THE MOTHERFUCKING THING, it never says there is NOTHING at all in the universe that indicates a connection, they said they did not find one.

You cannot keep claiming that failure of this group to find a link means there is no such link. My god you are an ignorant fucker, because they did not find OJ guilty does that mean he is innocent? Because they did not have footage of Bill sticking a cigar in Monica, does that mean it did not happen, because a girl cannot pick her rapist out of a lineup does that mean she was not raped? If you cannot prove someone hit your car, does that mean it was not hit?

I personally think the connection was minimal or merely economic, Bin Laden is an egotist who would not have followed Husseins orders.

S I M P L E L O G I C you dumbfuck

Kylere shoots and Scores

[Dregor Thule]

Ok Rainman, let me break it down for you. I'll make a list of events!

1) Commission says no evidence was found to suggest a relationship between AQ and Saddam.
2) Bush refutes the claim, saying there was.
3) I say, "Hey! Where's your proof for saying that Bushy!"
4) You open your trap and let loose the dogs of moron.
5) I repeat it again while getting in a jab at you.
6) The dogs are once again let out.
7) I yet again am forced to point out the fact you're a cretin.

and going out on a limb, the cycle will continue, ad infinitum, because of the aforementioned problem of you being a twit.

[masteen]

Both Saddam and Osama have facial hair. THEY'RE PRACTICALLY BROTHERS!!!111!!!!

[Kylere]

Ok Rainman, let me break it down for you. I'll make a list of events!

1) Commission says no evidence was found to suggest a relationship between AQ and Saddam.
2) Bush refutes the claim, saying there was.
3) I say, "Hey! Where's your proof for saying that Bushy!"
4) You open your trap and let loose the dogs of moron.
5) I repeat it again while getting in a jab at you.
6) The dogs are once again let out.
7) I yet again am forced to point out the fact you're a cretin.

and going out on a limb, the cycle will continue, ad infinitum, because of the aforementioned problem of you being a twit.

Umm dumbass, show me where I said Bush was right, I merely said proving a negative is nearly impossible, but you in your flame and destroy leftist cloud of denail launched an attack on me for daring to point out L O G I C. If you could see beyond your propaganda for 1 FUCKING second, you would have realized I was not even arguing with your ignorant ass. I hope one of the intellgent left point this out to you, since english does not work.

You have just earned my first STFU since Searyx, Kyoukan is not the opposite of Midnyte or Cartalas, YOU ARE!

[Dregor Thule]

Ok Rainman, let me break it down for you. I'll make a list of events!

1) Commission says no evidence was found to suggest a relationship between AQ and Saddam.
2) Bush refutes the claim, saying there was.
3) I say, "Hey! Where's your proof for saying that Bushy!"
4) You open your trap and let loose the dogs of moron.
5) I repeat it again while getting in a jab at you.
6) The dogs are once again let out.
7) I yet again am forced to point out the fact you're a cretin.

and going out on a limb, the cycle will continue, ad infinitum, because of the aforementioned problem of you being a twit.

Umm dumbass, show me where I said Bush was right, I merely said proving a negative is nearly impossible, but you in your flame and destroy leftist cloud of denail launched an attack on me for daring to point out L O G I C. If you could see beyond your propaganda for 1 FUCKING second, you would have realized I was not even arguing with your ignorant ass.

You have just earned my first STFU since Searyx, Kyoukan is not the opposite of Midnyte, YOU ARE!

That's great, really, but what fucking proof of a negative? I'll say it again even though I'm now on ignore but I know you're too angry at the world to not peek (HI KYLERE) so here goes. Bush says there is a connection. I want to see this proof. WHERE IS THE PROVING A NEGATIVE. Tell me this. Please. I beg of you.

[Adex_Xeda]

hmm,

I haven't read this thread yet.

Is it worth reading Tanc?

[Kelshara]

Proving a negative is nearly impossible, we lack proof of a connection that does not mean one exists, nor does it mean one does exist.

Ye gods have none of you ever studied the rules of logic?

hum where were you arguing that when Iraq had problems proving they did not have WMDs?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

They did have them. In the last two weeks pieces of them, egines, etc have been showing up in surrounding countries as shipments of "scrap metal". Conveniently not reported in the mainstream media.

[Kelshara]

Thing is, you can find a whole factory now and it would be too late. Too much time has gone by, and now WMDs have become irrelevant. 90% of the world would just think Bush got them put there now to take the preassure of his own falling administration.

[Vetiria]

They did have them. In the last two weeks pieces of them, egines, etc have been showing up in surrounding countries as shipments of "scrap metal". Conveniently not reported in the mainstream media.

Since when are engines "mass stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons?"

[Cartalas]

They did have them. In the last two weeks pieces of them, egines, etc have been showing up in surrounding countries as shipments of "scrap metal". Conveniently not reported in the mainstream media.

Since when are engines "mass stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons?"

They are the means in which to deliver chemical and biological weapons, so are classified under the UN treaty to be destroyed.

[Dregor Thule]

They did have them. In the last two weeks pieces of them, egines, etc have been showing up in surrounding countries as shipments of "scrap metal". Conveniently not reported in the mainstream media.

Do you seriously believe that the media would not report this if it were a credible news item? Yes, the media slants the news, both left and right, but they still report something that would be this big... if it were true. They've probably gotten hesitant about reporting any slight possible lead after all the chemical weapons found that were actually weed killers.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

They did have them. In the last two weeks pieces of them, egines, etc have been showing up in surrounding countries as shipments of "scrap metal". Conveniently not reported in the mainstream media.

Do you seriously believe that the media would not report this if it were a credible news item? Yes, the media slants the news, both left and right, but they still report something that would be this big... if it were true. They've probably gotten hesitant about reporting any slight possible lead after all the chemical weapons found that were actually weed killers.

The Washington Times
http://www.washingtontimes.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Missile engine find stirs concern over Iraq proliferation
By Edith M. Lederer
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published June 11, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEW YORK -- Twenty engines from banned Iraqi missiles were found in a Jordanian scrap yard with other equipment that could be used for weapons of mass destruction, a U.N. official said, raising new security questions about Iraq's scrap metal sales since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
Acting chief United Nations inspector Demetrius Perricos revealed the discoveries to the U.N. Security Council in a closed-door briefing Wednesday.
The U.N. team that found the 20 engines was following up on a discovery of a similar al-Samoud 2 engine in a scrap yard in the Dutch port of Rotterdam. Mr. Perricos said inspectors also want to check in Turkey, which also has received scrap metal from Iraq.
Mr. Perricos suggested that the interim Iraqi government, which will assume sovereignty of the country on June 30, may want to reconsider policies for exporting scrap metal that apparently began in mid-2003. The sales are regulated by the U.S.-led coalition.
"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks ... thereby also rendering the task of the disarmament of Iraq and its eventual confirmation more difficult," Mr. Perricos said.
The missile engines and some other equipment discovered in the scrap yards had been tagged by U.N. weapons monitors because of their potential dual use in legitimate civilian activities as well as banned-weapons production.
Mr. Perricos said in his briefing to the Security Council that U.N. inspectors do not know how much material has been removed from Iraq. But he later told reporters that up to a thousand tons of scrap metal was leaving Iraq every day.
"The only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," he said in the briefing.
U.N. inspectors were pulled out of Iraq just before the war began in March 2003, and the United States has refused to allow them to return. Instead, it deployed its own teams to search for weapons of mass destruction.
Mr. Perricos told the council that the 20 SA-2 missile engines were discovered when U.N. experts visited "relevant scrap yards" in Jordan last week.
The U.N. team also discovered some processing equipment with U.N. tags -- which show that it was being monitored -- including heat exchangers, and a solid propellant mixer bowl to make missile fuel, he said. It also discovered "a large number of other processing equipment without tags, in very good condition."




Copyright © 2004 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Return to the article

[Dregor Thule]

Here's the article in full which the Washington Times for some reason decided not to print, just for completeness sake. I found it on your religious television station's website, Fox News.

"UNITED NATIONS — U.N. weapons experts have found 20 engines used in banned Iraqi missiles in a Jordan scrapyard along with other equipment that could be used to make weapons of mass destruction, an official said Wednesday.

The discoveries were revealed to the U.N. Security Council by acting chief U.N. inspector Demetrius Perricos during in a closed-door briefing. The text was obtained by The Associated Press.

The U.N. team was following up on an earlier discovery of a similar Al Samoud 2 engine in a scrapyard in the Dutch port of Rotterdam. Perricos said inspectors also want to check in Turkey, which has also received scrap metal from Iraq.

Perricos told the Security Council said U.N. inspectors do not know how much material that they had monitored orginated in Iraq.

U.N. inspectors were pulled out of Iraq just before the war began in March 2003, and the United States has refused to allow them to return, instead deploying its own teams to search for weapons of mass destruction.

Perricos suggested that the interim Iraqi government, which will assume sovereignty when the U.S. and British occupation of the country ends on June 30, may want to reconsider "the whole policy for the continued export of metal scrap" which apparently started in mid-2003 and is regulated by the U.S.-led coalition.

"The removal of these materials from Iraq raises concerns with regard to proliferation risks ... thereby also rendering the task of the disarmament of Iraq and its eventual confirmation, more difficult," Perricos said.

"The only controls at the borders are for the weight of the scrap metal, and to check whether there are any explosive or radioactive materials within the scrap," he said, according to the text of his briefing.

Afterwards, he told reporters that up to a thousand tons of scrap metal was leaving Iraq every day.

"It's being exported. It's being traded out, and there is a large variety of scrap metal from very new to very old, and slowly, it seems the country is depleted of metal," he said.

During last week's visit to Jordan, Perricos told the council that U.N. experts visited "relevant scrapyards" with the full cooperation of Jordanian authorities and discovered 20 SA-2 missile engines.

The U.N. team also discovered some processing equipment with U.N. tags — which show it was being monitored — including heat exchangers, and a solid propellant mixer bowl to make missile fuel, he said. It also discovered "a large number of other processing equipment without tags, in very good condition."

"These visits provide just a snapshot of the whole picture since the scrap metal has a short residence time and is re-exported to various countries," Perricos told the council.

In its quarterly report to the council on Monday, the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission which Perricos heads, said a number of sites in Iraq known to have contained equipment and material that could be used to produce banned weapons and long-range missiles have been cleaned out or destroyed.

The inspectors said they didn't know whether the items, which had been monitored by the United Nations, were at the sites during the U.S.-led war in Iraq. The commission, known as UNMOVIC, said it was possible some material was taken by looters and sold as scrap.

UNMOVIC said its experts and a team from the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. body responsible for dismantling Iraq's nuclear program, were jointly investigating items from Iraq discovered in a scrapyard in Rotterdam.

An interesting development, I look forward to hearing more about it. There are several possible explanations for it, and yes, some of them would make you giggle with glee. Anything I say here will be translated by you as me making leftist excuses for my lover Saddam, but oh well. Just remember that you have no idea how long the engines have been scrapped, they could easily have been scrapped several years ago. The untagged processing equipment, yea, that looks suspicious. I'm sure a more detailed report will be made public soon.

[Cartalas]

This was posted earlier this week.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Dregor,

Actually they have said it was scrap metal shipments made this year.

[Dregor Thule]

Did some further reading on the subject.

U.N.: Iraq Sites With Material to Produce Banned Weapons Cleaned Out, Destroyed
Monday, June 07, 2004


UNITED NATIONS — A number of sites in Iraq known to have contained equipment and material that could have been used to produce banned weapons and long-range missiles have been either cleaned out or destroyed, U.N. weapons inspectors said Monday.

The inspectors' report said they didn't know whether the items, which had been monitored by the United Nations, were at the sites during the U.S.-led war in Iraq.

U.N. inspectors were pulled from Iraq just before the war began in March 2003 and the United States has refused to allow them to return, instead deploying its own teams to search for weapons of mass destruction.

"It is possible that some of the materials may have been removed from Iraq by looters of sites and sold as scrap," the U.N. Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission said in its quarterly report to the U.N. Security Council.

UNMOVIC said its experts and a team from the International Atomic Energy Agency, which was responsible for dismantling Iraq's nuclear program, were jointly investigating items from Iraq that were discovered in a scrap yard in the Dutch port of Rotterdam.

Through photographs taken during an initial IAEA (search) investigation, UNMOVIC said it discovered that SA-2 engines used in Iraq's Al Samoud 2 banned missile program were among the scrap.


Commission experts examined one missile engine at the site and discovered from the serial number that it had been tagged by U.N. inspectors in the past and had not been declared as having been fired.

Representatives at the scrapyard indicated that between five and a dozen similar engines had been seen there in January and February, and that more could have passed through the yard unnoticed, the report said.

Company staff said other items made of stainless steel and other corrosion-resistant metal alloys bearing the inscription "Iraq" or "Baghdad" had been observed in shipments delivered from the Middle East since November 2003, it said.

UNMOVIC experts examined a number of items with a portable metal analyzer and determined that they were composed of heat-resistant inconel and titanium — both subject to monitoring because of their possible dual-use in legitimate civilian activities and banned weapons production, the report said.

Despite cooperation from the Netherlands and the company, UNMOVIC said it wasn't possible to determine how many engines and how much other material previously subject to monitoring in Iraq may have been sent out of the country. It said its investigation was continuing.

The report said high-resolution satellite photos had detected that some sites subject to UNMOVIC monitoring had been cleaned up and equipment and material had been removed.

"In other areas, whole buildings that had previously contained equipment and materials subject to monitoring had been completely dismantled," it said.

The report showed satellite photos of a storage site in Shumokh, about than 10 miles northwest of downtown Baghdad, taken in late May 2003 and late February 2004.

UNMOVIC said that during the period between the photos, scrap items and other material was removed from one area and several buildings were demolished.

UNMOVIC spokesman Ewen Buchanan said the Shumokh site and the adjacent Ibn Al-Batyr facility contained biological, chemical, and missile-related items subject to U.N. monitoring. These included fermenters, a freeze drier, distillation columns, parts of missiles, and a 130-gallon "jacketed reactor vessel" which could be used in biological or chemical weapons production, he said.

"All sorts of sites seem to have been systematically dismantled, and it's not clear to us what has happened to items and material that was subject to U.N. monitoring," Buchanan said. "It creates a headache in trying to keep an accurate picture of what happened to everything."

The report noted that the U.S. inspection team — the Iraq Survey Group now led by UNMOVIC's former deputy director Charles Duelfer — has not provided the United Nations with any official information on its work or the results of its investigations.

Nonetheless, UNMOVIC said it was evaluating Iraq's procurement network during the period from 1999 to 2002 when U.N. inspectors were not allowed to return and had discovered a sophisticated network to obtain foreign materials, equipment and technology.

"To date, UNMOVIC has found no evidence that these were used for proscribed chemical or biological weapon purposes," it said.

That gives a bit more insight into what may have been going on. It says that as late as May 2003 the weapons sites were still intact. Take note this is after the war had begun. The lack of information being provided by the American Inspection teams is leaving the UN basically poking in the dark. The article offers two possible explanations for the removal of materials from sites and even the complete dismantling of some of the factories: Looters or the Americans. Now I can see people doing some looting, sure, I don't really doubt that happened. But to completely dismantle some sites is a bit much for mere looters. Probably done by the inspection teams during their searches. So that could be where some of the "scrap" is coming from.

[Dregor Thule]

Dregor,

Actually they have said it was scrap metal shipments made this year.

Yea, I read that part. It doesn't necessarily mean it was scrapped this year, just shipped out, post-American invasion I might add. This is stuff that the coalition and the interim Iraqi council have been shipping out in huge quantities. Remember the article said that the quality of the metals are of various qualities.

[vn_Tanc]

Is it worth reading Tanc?

It's always worth reading Tanc

[Animale]

Medium range missile engines... maybe proscribed by treaty but definitely not an imminent and immediate threat to U.S. security. It's also not a surprise that medium range missile parts were found in scrap metal, it is pretty well established that Saddam didn't shut down his missile program (aluminum tubes, etc.) and was manufacturing missiles who were on the extreme boundaries of the range limits imposed on him.

That being said, terrorists aren't going to be using medium range missiles any time soon against U.S. cities. Can't ship 'em, can't launch 'em... much harder than a briefcase or truck as a delivery method for destruction.

Animale

[Arundel Pajo]

There may or may not be validity to the article regarding missile engines...BUT...

I just wanted to clarify that the Washington Times is about as credible and unbiased a source as Rense.com or the National Enquirer. The paper, despite having "Washington" in the title, is owned and operated by Sun Myung Moon. Ever hear of "Moonies"?

If the Times is the only paper to report a story like this, which should be huge, then that says a lot. It just may not be saying what you seem to think it does. I mean... Moon is on record saying such crackpot things...homosexuality is a scourge that must be eradicated genocidally like Hitler did with the Jews? He is the new messiah, sent from God and given the approval of Jesus, Mohammad, and the Buddha? He has also been given the approval of Hitler and Stalin, who have repented their sins from beyond the grave?

Let us know when BBC, CNN, Ha'aretz, Reuters or somebody picks this story up. Hell - even FOX. Just don't go bringing the Washington Times to the table.

edit: on preview, I see the full news feed posted above. Note the differences between that and the Times piece. Plz at least use credible sources - even biased ones.

[Adex_Xeda]

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I repeat what has already been posted, but I bumped into a couple interesting counter arguements to title of this thread.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/ed ... dley_x.htm

A 9/11 commission staff report is being cited to argue that the administration was wrong about there being suspicious ties and contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda. In fact, just the opposite is true. The staff report documents such links.
The staff report concludes that:

• Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan."

• "A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting bin Laden in 1994."

• "Contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda also occurred after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan."

Chairman Thomas Kean has confirmed: "There were contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda, a number of them, some of them a little shadowy. They were definitely there."

http://www.techcentralstation.com/061804C.html

The 9-11 Commission has issued "Overview of the Enemy," its preliminary assessment of the al Qaeda network. Early press attention has focused on the conclusion that there was "no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States." However, as Troy University political scientist Steven Taylor notes, the early press coverage of the report elides a rather important distinction between "ties with al Qaeda" and "helped al Qaeda target the United States." More importantly, though, the myopic focus on al Qaeda to the exclusion of its Islamist partners in terror is troublesome.

It takes the commission's statements and walks you through it point to point to show how some in the media have interpreted the report poorly.

[vn_Tanc]

A 9/11 commission staff report is being cited to argue that the administration was wrong about there being suspicious ties and contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda. In fact, just the opposite is true. The staff report documents such links.
The staff report concludes that:

• Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan."

• "A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting bin Laden in 1994."

• "Contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda also occurred after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan."

Chairman Thomas Kean has confirmed: "There were contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda, a number of them, some of them a little shadowy. They were definitely there."

Yes this is exactly what the other article says only it omits the important following sentence where it states "No evidence of a collaborative effort was found" (after the Afghanistan meeting).

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Adex give it up. These people wouldn't even believe it if a video tape came out with Saddam and Osama talking about killing Americans over dinner.

[Cartalas]

Adex give it up. These people wouldn't even believe it if a video tape came out with Saddam and Osama talking about killing Americans over dinner.

They would say it was some Right Wing Plot.

[Wulfran]

OK Adex, lets try one last time...

Say you, Cartalas, and Midnyte all play cards, chat and swill some brews from time to time. Cart gets stupid one day, takes a gun to a convenience store and shoots someone. He flees but is recognized and the cops pick him up, minus the gun. Cart lives in Midnyte's basement, so the police get a warrant to search Midnyte's house, head in there, bring Midnyte in for questioning and eventually charge him (it was his gun or something). Still no gun. Then the police, knowing of your occasional get togethers, come to your house, rip through it looking for the gun, and charge you as an accessory... all without a warrant.

Even if you knew Cart was going to kill someone, gave him the ammunition and told him where to hide the gun after, nothing was proven.

If this occurred, tell me you wouldn't be suing the DA, the police and everyone else involved in your arrest. Tell me if this was publiciized that there wouldn't be a public outcry.

Now think of Adex = Iraq, Midnyte = Afghanistan, Cart = Al Qaeda, the police/DA = the US gov't and the court = the UN.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Very well thought out Wulf. I like it. It doesn't really compare, but very well thought out.

Try not to make this fit another mold. Just analyze it based on it.

[Lynks]

Sure it does compare, just on a smaller scale. But you know, people with a clearer way of thinking can see this.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

OK Adex, lets try one last time...

Say you, Cartalas, and Midnyte all play cards, chat and swill some brews from time to time. Cart gets stupid one day, takes a gun to a convenience store and shoots someone. He flees but is recognized and the cops pick him up, minus the gun. Cart lives in Midnyte's basement, so the police get a warrant to search Midnyte's house, head in there, bring Midnyte in for questioning and eventually charge him (it was his gun or something). Still no gun. Then the police, knowing of your occasional get togethers, come to your house, rip through it looking for the gun, and charge you as an accessory... all without a warrant.

Even if you knew Cart was going to kill someone, gave him the ammunition and told him where to hide the gun after, nothing was proven.

If this occurred, tell me you wouldn't be suing the DA, the police and everyone else involved in your arrest. Tell me if this was publiciized that there wouldn't be a public outcry.

Now think of Adex = Iraq, Midnyte = Afghanistan, Cart = Al Qaeda, the police/DA = the US gov't and the court = the UN.

Great thinking! Now your one big flaw.....if Cartalas mentions during one of their card games that he is thinking about knocking over the conveniemce store and shooting someone, then Adex and Midnyte can be arrested for accessory because they knew of the plot and did not say anything to the authorities.

[Adex_Xeda]

You must also add to that analogy that I as Iraq have invited other friends over to discuss and support quicky mart holdups.

And you also much consider that in the past I personally funded the an assasination attempt on the police chief.

[Kelshara]

Of course those funds were given to you by the police!

[Adex_Xeda]

All the more the responsiblity for the police to come and shut me down.
Killing the monster they helped create is a responsible thing to do.

[Kelshara]

Not creating it in the first place would have been smarter. And at times it is better with the monster you know than the bloodthirsty pack standing behind him waiting for a chance.

[Adex_Xeda]

Allowing Sadam to continue butchering the people under his grasp was the better choice?

I can't agree.

[Jice Virago]

Adex,

Many people have debunked this stance, but I will remind you again never the less. The US is not the worlds police force and there are countries with far more grievious human rights violations than Iraq that we have chosen to ignore, for reasons even a child can grasp. By your argument, Rawanda should have been invaded long ago. Or Pakistan. Disrupting an entire region of the world to seize their oil and impose our system of values on it does not make us liberators, it makes us conquerers.

[Cartalas]

Adex,

Many people have debunked this stance, but I will remind you again never the less. The US is not the worlds police force and there are countries with far more grievious human rights violations than Iraq that we have chosen to ignore, for reasons even a child can grasp. By your argument, Rawanda should have been invaded long ago. Or Pakistan. Disrupting an entire region of the world to seize their oil and impose our system of values on it does not make us liberators, it makes us conquerers.

hmm we siezed their oil?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Killing the monster they helped create is a responsible thing to do.

Probably the best thing you have ever said.

Kelshara is hung up on the past unfortunately. He is obviously unaware of the fact time-machines are just fiction.

[Wulfran]

Great thinking! Now your one big flaw.....if Cartalas mentions during one of their card games that he is thinking about knocking over the conveniemce store and shooting someone, then Adex and Midnyte can be arrested for accessory because they knew of the plot and did not say anything to the authorities.

True except how can this be proven unless one of the 3 admits this (which none have), or unless there was another witness/recording of this discussion?

Futhermore Adex, unless the police have evidence of crimes you have not been tried for, whether they suspect you aiding other robberies is immaterial, again, unless they provide enough evidence to obtain a warrant.

Guys, I am not a "rabbid anti-American". I don't hate G.W. Bush (I'm not sure I trust him, but I don't trust Chirac or Putin either). I am a citizen of another county (Canada... and we don't all hold with the anti-American sentiment) that sees some pretty major flaws in the way your country has conducted itself. This is the way many non-Americans view it and regardless of the "good" of deposing Saddam Hussein, this does affect your country's credibility.

[noel]

Guys, I am not a "rabbid anti-American". I don't hate G.W. Bush (I'm not sure I trust him, but I don't trust Chirac or Putin either). I am a citizen of another county (Canada... and we don't all hold with the anti-American sentiment) that sees some pretty major flaws in the way your country has conducted itself. This is the way many non-Americans view it and regardless of the "good" of deposing Saddam Hussein, this does affect your country's credibility.

If more Americans would attempt to understand the point of view of those like yourself Wulf, I think we'd see our people more active in the role of our government, and possibly some beneficial change. Too many Americans see a negative point of view and dismiss it instead of attempting to understand it.

[Voronwë]

Everybody agrees that the administration did not say Iraq had a roll in Al Queda. Though at the time of the invasion 69% of Americans responded that they believed Iraq had played a roll in 9/11.

The administration certainly claimed that Iraq had an active and ongoing military relationship with Al Queda, and definitely overstated this for the purposes of generating political support for the war. Specifically in 2002 to April 2003. In Sept 2003 months after the invasion, they started backing down from the rhetoric.

After September the 11th, we've entered into a new era and a new war. This is a man that we know has had connections with al Qaeda. This is a man [Saddam Hussein] who, in my judgment, would like to use al Qaeda as a forward army. And this is a man that we must deal with for the sake of peace, for the sake of our children's peace.

Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in acquiring poisons and gases.

[quote="George Bush "Mission Accomplished" Speech on USS Abraham Lincoln"]The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding.[/quote]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Vice President Dick Cheney said Thursday the evidence is "overwhelming" that al Qaeda had a relationship with Saddam Hussein's regime in Iraq, and he said media reports suggesting that the 9/11 commission has reached a contradictory conclusion were "irresponsible."

---

why would a bipartisan commission (5 REP, 5 DEM) publish the following:

Bin Ladin also explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan, despite his opposition to Hussein's secular regime. Bin Ladin had in fact at one time sponsored anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan. The Sudanese, to protect their own ties with Iraq, reportedly pursuaded Bin Ladin to cease this support and arranged for contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda. A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting Bin Ladin in1994. Bin Ladin is said to have requested space to establish training camps, as well as asssistance in procuring weapons, but Iraq apparently never responded. There have been reports that contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda also occurred after Bin Ladin had returned to Afghanistan, but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship. Two senior Bin Ladin associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States.

(typos are mine...stupid acrobat wasnt letting me copy/paste)

the source. page 5:
http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/ ... ent_15.pdf


Brady to the wolves:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 617-5.html

[Jice Virago]

Haha McClean got eaten alive. Can you imagine if that was GW out there on that podium? I am sure the neocons can which is, of course, why it rarely ever occurs. In a related note, I found this hilarious in the Onion, which i rate somewhere above Fox News and Below the Daily Show, in terms of accuracy:

If only Bush could have stopped them in time....

[Canelek]

Yeah, this week's Onion was brilliant on some of its articles. I think I would enjoy working for that paper!

[Kelshara]

Kelshara is hung up on the past unfortunately. He is obviously unaware of the fact time-machines are just fiction.

I like to learn from the past, something your stupid-ass politicians should learn how to do. How many dictators have you supported just to have them turn against you now? How many people have they killed? That blood is on YOUR hands as much as on the hands of the dictators themself. Of course, it pays off for them both economically and politically to set up a dictator that they can kick down now and then since anytime a President says WAR he gains 10% popularity.

I find it hillarious how you always claim we who disagree with Bush can't see the truth about WMds when you take anything Bush says for the truth and nothing but the truth.

Bush: "Hussein was the leader of al Qaeda!"
Everybody else: "There is NO proof they are even connected!"
Midnyte goes dancing in the streets.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Kelshara is hung up on the past unfortunately. He is obviously unaware of the fact time-machines are just fiction.

I like to learn from the past, something your stupid-ass politicians should learn how to do. How many dictators have you supported just to have them turn against you now? How many people have they killed? That blood is on YOUR hands as much as on the hands of the dictators themself. Of course, it pays off for them both economically and politically to set up a dictator that they can kick down now and then since anytime a President says WAR he gains 10% popularity.

I find it hillarious how you always claim we who disagree with Bush can't see the truth about WMds when you take anything Bush says for the truth and nothing but the truth.

Bush: "Hussein was the leader of al Qaeda!"
Everybody else: "There is NO proof they are even connected!"
Midnyte goes dancing in the streets.

Learning from the past is very important. Dwelling on it is beyond stupid and debilitating.

Your quips and overexagerations on me while funny, are inaccurate. And intelligent reasonable people on these boards know that.

[Adex_Xeda]

Jice,

We have tried to help Rwanda. Heck we even tried to help through the UN. Sadly the UN is impotent and the effort failed. Heck we even tried to use the UN to address Iraq for 14 years and that failed as well.



I know that you weren't specifically addressing Rwanda but rather was pointing out that the US doesn't invade other oppressed nations in an effort to free them.

1st one solution doesn't fit all foreign relations problems. We've taken a different approach with North Korea because of it being a unique situation. We got six buddy nations helping us there to work it out.


We had a different formula for Libya and now they're dismantling their nuke program. We had buddy nations helping (mainly the EU) with that situation.


We came to Iraq, tried to garner support, and some nations helped and others didn't. We saw a threat, of which the details of intellegence are stilll being talked about today and we acted in the best interest of our nation. One of the responsibilies of even a limited government is to protect itself. We rightly invaded. Along the way we gave 28 million people a chance at a freedom based government.

We did the right thing.

[Kelshara]

From a previous post of yours:

Adex give it up. These people wouldn't even believe it if a video tape came out with Saddam and Osama talking about killing Americans over dinner.

You do realize how ironic and stupid that comment from you is, right?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

From a previous post of yours:

Adex give it up. These people wouldn't even believe it if a video tape came out with Saddam and Osama talking about killing Americans over dinner.

You do realize how ironic and stupid that comment from you is, right?

Yes Kelshara, that is why I typed it out. Because I thought, "Gee, how ironically stupid it would be if I said this...".

Boy oh boy. You are something special.

[Kylere]

Hate to say this, but if a Tape Came out of them talking and plotting right now, half the people would say, "Well that is obviously faked by a computer"

Of course the other half saw Blade 2 and knows that graphics still are not that good. LOL

[Mplor]

Brady to the wolves:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 617-5.html

God love the free press!

What frightens me is that Midnyte and his ilk will justify McClellan's twisting of words which led to war while condemning Clinton's twisting of the word "sex" to exclude a blow job.

Here is morality at it's simplest:

War is a bad thing, even when completely unavoidable.
Blow jobs are a good thing, even if ... well, period!