Third Party

[Kylere]

This is your wishlist for presidential candidates besides the inferior choices the Dem/Rep tickets offer.

I would like to nominate John McCain and Howard Dean to represent the "Candidates that do not make me want to Puke Party"

As an alternate for those who do not want it to be a mixed party third I nominate John McCain and Bob Dole.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

John Mccain would make a phenomenal president.

Howard Dean doesn't want to make you puke? WOW!

[Kelshara]

I actually like McCain from what I have seen of him.. don't know enough about his political stands to really comment on him as a president though. I did perk up when I heard about the "joke" or whatever as him as the Kerry VP.

[masteen]

I'd vote for a McCain/Dean ticket. They could call it the Anger Management party

[Kylere]

I'd vote for a McCain/Dean ticket. They could call it the Anger Management party

Bah Dean was torpedo'd by selective AV transfer, the clips you saw were one mic being played with all else filtered out. When you hear and see it as a complete scene he did not seem any different than all other politicians but it was one of the smoothest acts of political sabotage ever pulled off.

[Arilain]

What about Mc Cain / Liberman ? My only problem with Dean was that the American Communist party supported him.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I'd vote for a McCain/Dean ticket. They could call it the Anger Management party

Bah Dean was torpedo'd by selective AV transfer, the clips you saw were one mic being played with all else filtered out. When you hear and see it as a complete scene he did not seem any different than all other politicians but it was one of the smoothest acts of political sabotage ever pulled off.

Dude. Dean has had many other diatribes since then. One yesterday as a matter of fact. Both him and Gore aren't helping the Dems with their adolescent rantings. They are scaring away the undecided.

[Xzion]

I'd vote for a McCain/Dean ticket. They could call it the Anger Management party

Bah Dean was torpedo'd by selective AV transfer, the clips you saw were one mic being played with all else filtered out. When you hear and see it as a complete scene he did not seem any different than all other politicians but it was one of the smoothest acts of political sabotage ever pulled off.

Dude. Dean has had many other diatribes since then. One yesterday as a matter of fact. Both him and Gore aren't helping the Dems with their adolescent rantings. They are scaring away the undecided.

I dont know if you remember but more americans voted for Gore then for Bush in 2000, i doubt there scaring anything away.

[Kylere]

Xzion the count of the vote was

50,456,002 versus 50,999,897 yeah, like that is an overwhelming majority which demands a repeal of the electoral college.

In actuality we should appeal it, but I do not hear anyone democrat or republican saying ANYTHING about doing it now. Show me one that is working to change it, and I will vote for them.

[Xzion]

Xzion the count of the vote was

50,456,002 versus 50,999,897 yeah, like that is an overwhelming majority which demands a repeal of the electoral college.

In actuality we should appeal it, but I do not hear anyone democrat or republican saying ANYTHING about doing it now. Show me one that is working to change it, and I will vote for them.

I agree, the electoral college is pure 100% bullshit no matter in what perspective you see it in. The people should elect a president, not plots of land. It does kind of piss me off that noone takes a stand against issues like that or the continued exisistance of the draft(free country my ass).

The electoral college wouldnt be that big of a deal besides the fact that it fucked up (3?) elections so far. Even in elections such as Regan vs Mondale (who got like 15 electoral votes but 1/4th the popular vote) the accuracy is compleatly off.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

http://www.fec.gov/pdf/eleccoll.pdf

Great information on the electoral college.

[Dregor Thule]

See, McCain is well liked by both sides of the spectrum. Unfortunately that means he'll never be president. I hope I can eat those words one day.

[Chmee]

An article on why the electoral college is not a bad idea.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/11-10-00.html

[Arilain]

The Electoral College would be a bad idea if we were a direct democracy. However we are a representative democracy so it is there to make sure every state has an even voice.

[Acies]

The concept of the Electoral College is out dated. The whole reason it was formed was because not every American in the days prior to telecommunications would take a trip to a centralized location to vote, leaving their livelyhoods behind. It was convient to have someone represent your vote. Nowdays, it should not be required at all.

[Kylere]

Dude. Dean has had many other diatribes since then. One yesterday as a matter of fact. Both him and Gore aren't helping the Dems with their adolescent rantings. They are scaring away the undecided.

Hey, if I got screwed by the press as badly as he did, I would rant also.

[Kylere]

Yeah i do not want to take the time to do so, because I really do not give that much of a fuck about it, but I would like to compare those that defend it now versus those that whined about it in November 2000.

Either we stop reporting popular numbers since they mean nothing, or we drop the electoral system. Because lets be honest with the percentage of vote seperating Gore and Bush on the popular side, there is no way anyone can tell me one or the other won. Now before you whine that your pussy hurts and Gore had to have won, take a class in statistics, look at the numbers seperating them, and apply a little margin of error.

Considering the average American cannot tally the vote on how 10 people want their pizza, how can anyone assume 100million votes can be counted to an accuracy of under .5% deviation

[Arilain]

The US should have a run off system like is in place in Louisiana.

[masteen]

The US should have a run off system like is in place in Louisiana.

I don't think a hollerin' contest would be appropriate.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Yeah i do not want to take the time to do so, because I really do not give that much of a fuck about it, but I would like to compare those that defend it now versus those that whined about it in November 2000.

Either we stop reporting popular numbers since they mean nothing, or we drop the electoral system. Because lets be honest with the percentage of vote seperating Gore and Bush on the popular side, there is no way anyone can tell me one or the other won. Now before you whine that your pussy hurts and Gore had to have won, take a class in statistics, look at the numbers seperating them, and apply a little margin of error.

Considering the average American cannot tally the vote on how 10 people want their pizza, how can anyone assume 100million votes can be counted to an accuracy of under .5% deviation

Actually the system tell us that Bush won. Period.

[Voronwë]

There is only 1 way the Electoral College will ever go away. And it will someday.

Eventually there will be a military overthrow of the United States. At that time, presumably a new government's Constitution will be set up. Until that day (which probably won't be anytime soon), there is no way in hell it will change. The vast majority of the states enjoy disproportionate political influence because of the Electoral College, so there is no way they would vote to get rid of it, which is one of the requirements to amend the Constitution.

so forget it. it won't ever happen.

i think the 2000 election demonstrated clearly that our current process is not designed to settle elections that are that close.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

There is only 1 way the Electoral College will ever go away. And it will someday.

Eventually there will be a military overthrow of the United States. At that time, presumably a new government's Constitution will be set up. Until that day (which probably won't be anytime soon), there is no way in hell it will change. The vast majority of the states enjoy disproportionate political influence because of the Electoral College, so there is no way they would vote to get rid of it, which is one of the requirements to amend the Constitution.

so forget it. it won't ever happen.

i think the 2000 election demonstrated clearly that our current process is not designed to settle elections that are that close.

I think it works just fine. Even if Gore got elected I would stand by the system. I wouldn't be happy to call him my president, but I would honor and respect it nonetheless.

[Jice Virago]

McCain would be my first choice of people to be president out of the field of rescent hopefuls, no one else really stands out on either side of the partisan lines. Unfortunately, until the GOP recognizes how much the fundies and crispies have taken over their party (a process begun by Reagan), they will never be able to field a centrist canidate. The last primaries are ample evidence of why this is so.

The best possible scenario for the GOP would be to lose a bunch of seats in the legislature and the presidency, which would be a huge wakeup call for them. I think if that were to happen, you would see a massive purging of radical influence and a stronger center of intelligent fiscally minded socially open republicans comming back in 2008 and taking control of things.

I can't believe I am saying this, but I miss Newt. The guy might have been harsh, but at least he didn't bullshit his ass off like the GW Corp does and he didn't bother much with social issues, beyond stating his personal views. McCain/Gingrich is a ticket I would vote for in a flat second.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

The Dems have lost a ton of seats but they haven't woken up. All they did was fall more to the left.

But, on your idea of a McCain/Gingrich ticket...hells yes! I would abandon Bush in a heartbeat for that ticket.

[Chmee]

The vast majority of the states enjoy disproportionate political influence because of the Electoral College, so there is no way they would vote to get rid of it, which is one of the requirements to amend the Constitution.

Smaller states have a more disproportionate influence through getting 2 senators regardless of their size then through the electoral college. Overall though I think having two different legislative bodies has been successful in providing another check to at least slow government excess. Also the Constitution just specifies how many electors each state gets (basically how many people they have in the senate and house combined). It doesn't specify how those are chosen. The winner take all that almost all states use evolved over time as mentioned in Midnyte's link earlier.

[Voronwë]

McCain would never run with a piece of shit like Newt Gingrich. ever.

[Chmee]

I don't care for McCain at all. Mainly because of his campaign finance reform legislation and his pushing of the tobacco settlement, although their are some lesser pieces of legislation/policy that I have seen him push as well that were lousy.

[Aaeamdar]

The Fundies are to the GOP what the Greens are to the Democrats (except Greens are not scary). Fundies are willing to never have any real power if certain issues are not addressed. They would not accept a party that was Neutral on abortion and gay rights (its really sad what issues get these guys panties in a bunch). They, like the Greens, would not look at two candiates and chhose the one more in line with their beliefs if neither candidate was anti-abortion and anti-gay. In fact, if Ted Kenedey started blasting abortion and pronouncing that all gays were going to hell, the Fundies would probably vote for him.

The GOP knows that the fundies are a small fraction of the party, but they also know they cannot win a national election (and many state and local ones) without them. So the Fundies willingness to vote for some hopeless 3rd party candidate (like the Greens that vote for Nader) over a socially moderate Repulican gives them power.

The converse is also true. The reason gays (and other minorities, but we'll use gays as an example) have essentially no political power (in either party) is that they vote in the 90% range Democrat. If a "gay party" candidate was running, gays would still vote for Kerry, in spite of his possition on gay marriage. In the entire history of my life, the only Candidate for presidential nominiation who has ever had a strong pro-gay stance was Paul Tsongus. Yet gays during the primarys overwhelmingly supported Clinton. Why? who knows. Maybe because for a Dem, Tsongus had decidely liberitarian views on social programs. Or maybe, as I suspect, Clinton was the Dem favourite, so they towed the line.

If gays were smart and organized, they would form a strong caucus inside the Dem Party (or GOP, really, as they have the numbers to replace the fundies if organized) and demand that certain issues - Gay Marriage and and end to Military and other governmental discrimination - be part of the platform. Absent those inclusions - they walk and vote for some hopless "gay party" candidate. But, unlike the Fundies, gays are neither smart nor organized.

Single issue voting can be a powerful tool to gain disproportionate political power. I really hate the fundies, but they do know what they are doing.

The interesting thing is that it does not work for the Greens or the Libertarians. Both of whom vote for their own party candidate rather taking a stake in a winnable one closer (even though not close) to their own views. I suspect it has to do with absence of sufficient numbers. Not sure.

[Voronwë]

you make a great post Aaenamdansdadarnamdar, but i think your conclusion that gays are neither smart nor organized is incorrect.

I think what is different about them than some other stereotypical voting blocks is that homosexuality transcends ethnicity and socioeconomic class. So the gay prostitute on the corner of the slums has a different political agenda than the gay stock broker.

but yeah, it is remarkable how politically powerful and organized the Fundamentalist Christians are, yet how much they are willing to cede tangible benefit as long as certain issues are given lip service (gay marriage ban amendment).

if they really insisted the GOP focus more of its tax policy to their benefit, it would be very interesting to see what happened.

[Keverian FireCry]

Kucinich and Nader in 2008!

[Winnow]

McCain/Some chick or Fabio looking guy

Need to pull in the female vote.

[Keverian FireCry]

Johnny Depp!

[Xzion]

Another large problem with the electoral college is that it denys any power to a 3rd party ever growing. The electoral college is built to feed two parties, and only two parties.
My hate for this system has nothing to do with 2000, at the time i wanted Bush to beat Gore, yet i was still pissed off that the vote was decided by such a bullshit system.
The electoral college is even designed so that states with a higher population, would have a higher amount of delegates (california's 30 something to alaskas 1 or 2) so the comparison to the senate argument holds no water, unless the electoral college would give states an equal representation. The electoral college is built on a very poor basis to imitate a popular vote.
Say in 2004, california's vote turnout is 52% to Kerry, 44% to Bush and 4% to other, the 44% of the population, representing millions of people that voted for Bush's, votes mean JACK SHIT, those millions and millions of votes are compleatly descredited, while 500 people in florida can decide the election.
The electoral college is probrably also indirectly responcible for a very low vote turnout in the US, being that only 40% of the population or so votes. A kerry supporter in Texas knows his vote means jack shit, since most texans will vote for Bush in november, so that kerry supporter stays home on november second.
I cna compleatly understand the need for the electoral college in the past, but with our media and technology it is a compleatly obscolete system.

No argument supporting the electoral college (that i have heard) could counter those facts, it has proven time and time again to be VERY innacurate.

[Xzion]

The Fundies are to the GOP what the Greens are to the Democrats (except Greens are not scary). Fundies are willing to never have any real power if certain issues are not addressed. They would not accept a party that was Neutral on abortion and gay rights (its really sad what issues get these guys panties in a bunch). They, like the Greens, would not look at two candiates and chhose the one more in line with their beliefs if neither candidate was anti-abortion and anti-gay. In fact, if Ted Kenedey started blasting abortion and pronouncing that all gays were going to hell, the Fundies would probably vote for him.

The GOP knows that the fundies are a small fraction of the party, but they also know they cannot win a national election (and many state and local ones) without them. So the Fundies willingness to vote for some hopeless 3rd party candidate (like the Greens that vote for Nader) over a socially moderate Repulican gives them power.

The converse is also true. The reason gays (and other minorities, but we'll use gays as an example) have essentially no political power (in either party) is that they vote in the 90% range Democrat. If a "gay party" candidate was running, gays would still vote for Kerry, in spite of his possition on gay marriage. In the entire history of my life, the only Candidate for presidential nominiation who has ever had a strong pro-gay stance was Paul Tsongus. Yet gays during the primarys overwhelmingly supported Clinton. Why? who knows. Maybe because for a Dem, Tsongus had decidely liberitarian views on social programs. Or maybe, as I suspect, Clinton was the Dem favourite, so they towed the line.

If gays were smart and organized, they would form a strong caucus inside the Dem Party (or GOP, really, as they have the numbers to replace the fundies if organized) and demand that certain issues - Gay Marriage and and end to Military and other governmental discrimination - be part of the platform. Absent those inclusions - they walk and vote for some hopless "gay party" candidate. But, unlike the Fundies, gays are neither smart nor organized.

Single issue voting can be a powerful tool to gain disproportionate political power. I really hate the fundies, but they do know what they are doing.

The interesting thing is that it does not work for the Greens or the Libertarians. Both of whom vote for their own party candidate rather taking a stake in a winnable one closer (even though not close) to their own views. I suspect it has to do with absence of sufficient numbers. Not sure.

One of the main factors of there being such bitter partisanship in the country is that the ELECTORAL COLLEGE only allows 2 parties to have power, if we ran off the popular vote, smaller parties would eventually flourish, as you would see the libertarian vote escelate from 2% of the vote, to 5, to 10, to 15, to 45% of the vote. Yet the american people cannot see this progession as a third party would recieve 0% of the electoral votes being that its supporters would come from a wide variety of states, so people will continue to vote either democrat or republican, and only democrat or republican.
Of course, both democrats and republicans love this, becouse they both are able to keep a monopoly of power due to the electoral college, and at the time the only people WHO HAVE THE POWER TO ABOLISH THE FUCKING ELECTORAL COLLEGE ARE DEMOCRATES AND REPUBLICANS, AND THEY NEVER WILL.
So this is a vicious cycle.

[Sueven]

I like McCain. I think he's a useful and worthwhile senator. I do not think he would make a particularly good president.

As for politicians I would like to see as president, it's hard to really think of a lot. Paul Wellstone probably would have been my choice (as long as he had some more conservative types to keep markets open and the economy in check), but he's dead. I like Olympia Snowe (and really wish she would get some consideration for a VP spot), but I am not really knowledgeable enough to issue a full endorsement.

Really, I would love to see a balanced ticket. An administration that could pull the best from all parties and ideological persuasions would be a dream.

[Fesuni Chopsui]

I would vote for McCain/Dean, even though I think Dean is nothing but a lab monkey on too many experimental drugs

Lieberman I would never vote for, he's too much of a sack of shit

As for that comment on Gays Dar, you're half right and half wrong...Gays are smart enough and at times we can be quite organized...the problem is we have no one to lead us...

[Kylere]

Well we know based on the people here that McCain/Dean could be elected.

By the way, the far left Greens are just as scary as the Far Right Conservatives, anyone who thinks there is a difference between them is ignoring the fanatic gleam in their eyes as they paw whatever issue is their precious that month.

You know all the political spectrum tests they have would you guess me as a Moderate Democrat? Because that is where they all place me, but I was a Liberal Republican. Now I am a Libertarian who wishes they were more realistic about the need for a military and military service.