Toshira - Put your BS here please, not in Cart's post.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » June 2, 2004, 8:33 pm

Here's a place for your comments that doesn't violate the FF tag.
Thanks!

edit: Mem day isn't JUST FOR the people that are alive today. It's for the fallen soldiers above all else. You're right, there isn't a single living soldier that has died for us and our freedoms.. think about that statement for a moment.

I'll also state that any soldier that has died for this country following their orders and doing what they felt was necessary - be it right or not in my eyes - to protect this country or its interests deserves our respect regardless of politics.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 2, 2004, 8:38 pm

Remember that one time on the old vault I tried a *FF* thread and got Winnow and Kyoukan banned for a week? Great times!

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » June 2, 2004, 8:40 pm

editing: any soilder that's died in honor.. if any of those sadists at that Iraq prison had died while tortuing, that's a different story.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 2, 2004, 8:41 pm

Akaran_D wrote:I'll also state that any soldier that has died for this country following their orders and doing what they felt was necessary - be it right or not in my eyes - to protect this country or its interests deserves our respect regardless of politics.

Remember too that our soldiers are brainwashed to believe that if they have to give their lives, it is to protect/defend this country. Blame the politicians and foreign policy-makers, not the soldiers.

I have no problem with what you said Tosh. I do have a problem with where you said it, mostly due to the FF tag.

Memorial day isn't just about soldiers that died fighting for our freedom. It's also about those that died protecting our way of life. I think it's safe to say that a lot of soldiers who are alive today and fought in WWII believed that was precisely what they were doing, and I believe that as well.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 2, 2004, 8:53 pm

Aslanna wrote:Remember that one time on the old vault I tried a *FF* thread and got Winnow and Kyoukan banned for a week? Great times!

I was flaming Agdarr which shouldn't have counted!

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » June 2, 2004, 8:55 pm

I also got winnow suspended for a week!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 2, 2004, 8:58 pm

Raistin wrote:I also got winnow suspended for a week!

Oh yeah! ASS!

Akheva /ooc lameness!

Spang · Post by **Spang** » June 3, 2004, 6:02 am

Aranuil wrote:Remember too that our soldiers are brainwashed to believe that if they have to give their lives, it is to protect/defend this country.

Aranuil, for once take me seriously, if you can. i'm taking you serously atm.

soldiers are not brainwashed, they are trained. they are trained often to do certain tasks and procedures so when the shit hits the fan they act instinctevily.

'train as you fight...fight as you train.'

is that brainwashing to you?

and Toshira, commenting on a "blanket statement" with a "blanket statement" of your own? that makes a lot of sense.

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » June 3, 2004, 7:05 am

I can tell you I am not brainwashed at all I still think for myself. Spang was actually right with what he said. Granted there are some that do become brainwashed it does happen.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 3, 2004, 11:28 am

Please don't misunderstand me. That was not intended to be a snide remark. I'm not saying soldiers can't think for themselves. What I'm trying to say is that it is absolutely essential that when our soldiers take up arms in a conflict or follow an order they believe they're doing so for the greater good of our country, and that their superiors have that in mind when issuing them said orders. That belief, coupled with excellent training is what allows our military to function as it should. There was no disrespect intended.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » June 3, 2004, 11:47 am

I am still trying to figure out the last engagement that the U.S. has been in that the soldiers all got together and decided it would be a grand idea to just take it upon themselves to travel 2500 miles to go and eradicate people because they just wanted to.

How fucking dense can you possibly be to think they have a say in it? Do you really believe that anyone involved in combat in the armed forces has a say in government policy?

If you want to question the government and say they are wrong to send our people off to possibly die, then you have that right. For you to call the people who volunteer to join those services nothing but a bunch of killers makes you an uniformed, ignorant piece of subhuman trash.

You really think we should have stayed out of WW2? Are you honestly that fucking stupid? Do you think that sitting on our thumbs and watching hundreds of thousands more people in Europe dying would have been worth it?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 3, 2004, 11:54 am

"You really think we should have stayed out of WW2? Are you honestly that fucking stupid? Do you think that sitting on our thumbs and watching hundreds of thousands more people in Europe dying would have been worth it?"

Maybe he likes!!!!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 3, 2004, 1:04 pm

How fucking dense can you possibly be to think they have a say in it? Do you really believe that anyone involved in combat in the armed forces has a say in government policy?

They do in a way.. they volunteer for military service.

Post by **Sylvus** » June 3, 2004, 1:12 pm

Kelshara wrote:
How fucking dense can you possibly be to think they have a say in it? Do you really believe that anyone involved in combat in the armed forces has a say in government policy?
They do in a way.. they volunteer for military service.

Quite a few people who died in service of this (and I'm assuming many other) country did not volunteer for military service, but ended up serving their country when called upon.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 3, 2004, 1:15 pm

Yeah it was in response to those talking about current actions. I should have specified that.

Lynxe · Post by **Lynxe** » June 3, 2004, 5:04 pm

Aranuil wrote:I have no problem with what you said Tosh. I do have a problem with where you said it, mostly due to the FF tag.

Totally agree with this. My family, people I love and miss fought in war but that doesn't mean I agree with them or what they fought for - in fact i don't. I think Tosh and anyone else is entitled to an opinion and freedom of speech but most people tend to know when and how to use that right. It isnt an excuse to be a tastless asshole, though people who lack tack and maturity abuse it as such.

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » June 3, 2004, 7:18 pm

Funniest thing about all of this bashing. In my ten years of active duty military service I have NEVER had anyone say or act in this matter to my face.

No, I am not saying "say it to my face blah blah" trivial threats its just kinda interesting. I mean I sorta knew there were these anti-military groups and people out there but you see them about as often as you see the Neo-nazi's or other such people.

It seems to be quite common, here on the boards so why has noone ever come up to me in public while in uniform (say lunch break or something) and told me I was a "murderer"?

Mind you I wouldnt protest against being called a "killer" I suppose. My AFSC? 2W071...look it up.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 3, 2004, 8:00 pm

Sendarie wrote:Funniest thing about all of this bashing. In my ten years of active duty military service I have NEVER had anyone say or act in this matter to my face.

No, I am not saying "say it to my face blah blah" trivial threats its just kinda interesting. I mean I sorta knew there were these anti-military groups and people out there but you see them about as often as you see the Neo-nazi's or other such people.

It seems to be quite common, here on the boards so why has noone ever come up to me in public while in uniform (say lunch break or something) and told me I was a "murderer"?

Mind you I wouldnt protest against being called a "killer" I suppose. My AFSC? 2W071...look it up.

Thank you Send for your service. Even those ungrateful, ignorant ones appreciate the freedoms they have, they just can't stomach what it takes to have those freedoms.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 3, 2004, 8:01 pm

I'd agree with Tosh's statement about it being 60 years since a soldier has "protected our freedom".

It has been 60 years since our Freedom has been under military threat. All the other military campaigns since then have had as much to do with protecting our freedom as the crusades did.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 3, 2004, 9:41 pm

Forthe wrote:I'd agree with Tosh's statement about it being 60 years since a soldier has "protected our freedom".

It has been 60 years since our Freedom has been under military threat. All the other military campaigns since then have had as much to do with protecting our freedom as the crusades did.

Then you suffer in ignorance of history in the same manner he does, you are saying that unless we are defending American soil, then we are not defending freedom. Every sailor, soldier, airman and marine who stood guard while you slept in your bed, wetting your nappies was protecting your freedom. If we had dissolved the Department of Defense 60 years ago, you and Toshira both would be whining in Russian.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 3, 2004, 9:44 pm

Because.. beware of the domino effect!

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » June 3, 2004, 10:21 pm

The Domino Effect theory was crap and everyone knew it at the time. Anyone with an ounce of free will and sense knows that the reason our people are at risk now is bullshit, perpetuated by the sons of rich texan oil barons who never worked a real day in their lives, let alone served the armed forces. That said, calling any of them killers is fairly disrespectful, in any forum. I firmly believe that even the inbred fucknuts doing the torture work in the prisons were following orders and the chain of command that facilitated that does deserve contempt.

On the other hand, I don't really care for the little flag waving nationalistic thread with a FF stamped on it, as if it is some sort of sacred place of refuge. I have this mental image of the boards neo-con white trash (we don't need to name names) having a little circle jerk in PMs over how they got one in past us liberal scum. It reminds me of when GW used the aircraft carier rally as a political stunt. Its the same sort of hubris. Furthermore, the thread never should have been started anyplace other than Current Events, in any case. Putting it here was a deliberate and calculated flame bait manuever.

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » June 3, 2004, 11:24 pm

60 years huh thats complete bullshit. We protect your freedom every day. Just because we arn't fighting people to keep it doesn't mean its not being protected. Myself and many others bust our ass everyday and night to protect your freedom. You don't have to be activly in combat to protect freedom its also done by deterring threats.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 3, 2004, 11:35 pm

Jice Virago wrote: Putting it here was a deliberate and calculated flame bait manuever.

To all the Soldiers both past and present,for all those families of the men who gave their lives for our freedom.To the French,British,Canadian,Austrailian,and any other country I have missed.

That was the original post. What on earth was over the top or attempting "refuge". For fuck's sake, don't be a drama queen.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 3, 2004, 11:58 pm

Jice Virago wrote:The Domino Effect theory was crap and everyone knew it at the time. Anyone with an ounce of free will and sense knows that the reason our people are at risk now is bullshit, perpetuated by the sons of rich texan oil barons who never worked a real day in their lives, let alone served the armed forces. That said, calling any of them killers is fairly disrespectful, in any forum. I firmly believe that even the inbred fucknuts doing the torture work in the prisons were following orders and the chain of command that facilitated that does deserve contempt.

On the other hand, I don't really care for the little flag waving nationalistic thread with a FF stamped on it, as if it is some sort of sacred place of refuge. I have this mental image of the boards neo-con white trash (we don't need to name names) having a little circle jerk in PMs over how they got one in past us liberal scum. It reminds me of when GW used the aircraft carier rally as a political stunt. Its the same sort of hubris. Furthermore, the thread never should have been started anyplace other than Current Events, in any case. Putting it here was a deliberate and calculated flame bait manuever.

Your giving me to much credit. the post was what it was a THANK YOU.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » June 4, 2004, 1:00 am

stupid question and i know im gonna get reamed for it ... but what is a FF?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 4, 2004, 1:09 am

Drasta wrote:stupid question and i know im gonna get reamed for it ... but what is a FF?

*FF* = Flame Free. Check Cartalas' thread with *FF* in the Subject for more info on it's origins.

noel · Post by **noel** » June 4, 2004, 1:09 am

Drasta wrote:stupid question and i know im gonna get reamed for it ... but what is a FF?

Flame Free.

No reaming here.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 4, 2004, 2:17 am

Kylere wrote:
Forthe wrote:I'd agree with Tosh's statement about it being 60 years since a soldier has "protected our freedom".

It has been 60 years since our Freedom has been under military threat. All the other military campaigns since then have had as much to do with protecting our freedom as the crusades did.
Then you suffer in ignorance of history in the same manner he does, you are saying that unless we are defending American soil, then we are not defending freedom. Every sailor, soldier, airman and marine who stood guard while you slept in your bed, wetting your nappies was protecting your freedom. If we had dissolved the Department of Defense 60 years ago, you and Toshira both would be whining in Russian.

I agree. I should have stated....

I'd agree with Tosh's statement about it being 60 years since a soldier has "protected our freedom" in a military campaign.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » June 4, 2004, 5:05 am

i agree with Denadeb and Kylere completely.

very well put, both of you. i think.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 4, 2004, 9:53 am

Forthe for all we disagree, you are still one of the good ones.

The domino theory is moot, without the Armed Forces of the US and Canada, and to a lesser extent the rest of NATO, the world would have fallen under Soviet control, it was part of their doctrine and their core beliefs.

Regardless of what decisions were made, and what wars were fought, without the soldiers standing quietly by waiting for the hordes to cross the border, they would have crossed it.

Rasspotari · Post by **Rasspotari** » June 5, 2004, 12:50 am

just wanted to remind people that history is written by the victors of war, the few that stood in the back and were in next to no danger while others died on their behalf, those few that have the overall vision of what transpired, and from those few men we find out what really happened.

read that over again and then picture another outcome of WWII, and imagine beeing a german citizen today and try and figure out how they would think about what happened during those years of war.

to do so requires empathy and some logical thinking, after this smile and realize they would feel about what their leaders did as you do about yours and what they are doing today.

after all this remind yourself that in war, there are no victors only losers.
how to battle this happening again, encourage independant thinking and general education on top of free flow of information (not like it is today).

since this wont happen ever in our lifetimes, the best we can do is hope that one thing that will keep us in check will prevail, buisness. nothing ensures peace more then that single concept.
-if you have something to lose, you dont wanna risk it- it's as simple as that, unless your a lunatic that somehow got the damn joystick in his possession.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 5, 2004, 1:18 am

Rasspotari wrote:just wanted to remind people that history is written by the victors of war, the few that stood in the back and were in next to no danger while others died on their behalf, those few that have the overall vision of what transpired, and from those few men we find out what really happened.

read that over again and then picture another outcome of WWII, and imagine beeing a german citizen today and try and figure out how they would think about what happened during those years of war.

to do so requires empathy and some logical thinking, after this smile and realize they would feel about what their leaders did as you do about yours and what they are doing today.

after all this remind yourself that in war, there are no victors only losers.
how to battle this happening again, encourage independant thinking and general education on top of free flow of information (not like it is today).

since this wont happen ever in our lifetimes, the best we can do is hope that one thing that will keep us in check will prevail, buisness. nothing ensures peace more then that single concept.
-if you have something to lose, you dont wanna risk it- it's as simple as that, unless your a lunatic that somehow got the damn joystick in his possession.

There are plenty of accounts of the war written by front line soldiers. Modern history (1900+) is not written soley by "those who stood in the back" There are also a ton of books written by germans about WWII in particular.

At the end of the war, germans were fighting for the fatherland but not for Hitler. Most knew he was a kook, especially the other high ranking officers who at one point tried to kill him.

Rasspotari · Post by **Rasspotari** » June 5, 2004, 5:41 pm

Winnow wrote: There are plenty of accounts of the war written by front line soldiers. Modern history (1900+) is not written soley by "those who stood in the back" There are also a ton of books written by germans about WWII in particular.

At the end of the war, germans were fighting for the fatherland but not for Hitler. Most knew he was a kook, especially the other high ranking officers who at one point tried to kill him.

oh you mean they didn't prevent everyone that was in the war to write a single word about their experience, sorry didn't know that !
most knew hitler about as much as they know what the moon surface feels like when walking on it. and i'm not talking about hitler, i'm talking about if the germans had won which as i've been told could have happened with not too many changes to how things played out.

now stop finding flaws in my random thoughts and acctually try and think of how you would feel about the leaders of then, and if it wouldn't be just about the same way you feel about your leaders of today.

VeeshanVault

Toshira - Put your BS here please, not in Cart's post.

Toshira - Put your BS here please, not in Cart's post.

Re: Toshira - Put your BS here please, not in Cart's post.

Re: Toshira - Put your BS here please, not in Cart's post.

Re: Toshira - Put your BS here please, not in Cart's post.