Direct Link between Sadaam's people and the 911 attackers?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » May 31, 2004, 9:22 am

Karae wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Markulas wrote:So do people believe you should go to war over a speculation?
I don't Mark. But this war doesn't fit that mold. So not sure why you brought it up here.
You're absolutely right. This war is based on lies. A very different thing.

Damn you're one bitter, ignorant person. Good luck with that.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » May 31, 2004, 11:29 am

no, please, no one reply to that.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » June 1, 2004, 12:17 pm

Winnow wrote:You're like that regurgitating college geek in Goodwill Hunting that had mad skills quoting from books but didn't understand what the fuck they meant

It's Good Will Hunting. Here's an apple.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 1, 2004, 1:47 pm

Karae wrote:Oh, btw, I think this says all you need to know about Bush's intelligence. Or perhaps this one. What were you saying about his reaction again Kylere?

What the fuck does this have to do with anything? This post is so out of place I first assumed you were using the YOU tag. My god, what a dumb ass.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 1, 2004, 2:02 pm

Siji wrote:
Winnow wrote:You're like that regurgitating college geek in Goodwill Hunting that had mad skills quoting from books but didn't understand what the fuck they meant
It's Good Will Hunting. Here's an apple.

Cinnamon Applesauce instead please.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 1, 2004, 4:02 pm

Kylere wrote: Karae you stupid piece of shit, he left that classrom upon being notified so that shows what a dumbass you are, he then went to an airplane and bopped around instead of doing anything of import, and if you do not think the President of the United States can exercise command and control from a classroom then you have never been anyhwere one visited.

You forget about this post? I was just, once again, showing how unbelievably clueless you are when it comes to what George Bush actually did that morning. Not only did he not immediately leave the classroom when he was notified of the attacks, he knew about them before he even entered. And even you cannot be so stupid as to argue with his own words.

And if you don't think his reaction of "There's one bad pilot" to a 747 crashing into WT1 or his blundering of the commonest colloquialisms are an indication of his complete, utter, and blithering idiocy then I congratulate you because somehow your unending string of moronic posts have left you appearing more intelligent than you really are.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 1, 2004, 4:12 pm

"There's one bad pilot" was my first reaction too. I have no problem with that. It's a real normal reaction.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 1, 2004, 4:26 pm

Everyone was speculating about what was going on. The only morons on this thread are the ones thinking they would have done something different in the very first few minutes after the initial crash.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 1, 2004, 5:33 pm

Once the news came across saying that someone called a relative and said it was a hijacking, the mood turned fast. I remember being in my cubical listening to the radio in absolute horror and on the verge of tears. I'll never forget that day.

To me 9/11 is this generations JFK assassination. Everyone will remember where they were and what they were doing that day.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » June 1, 2004, 5:56 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Once the news came across saying that someone called a relative and said it was a hijacking, the mood turned fast. I remember being in my cubical listening to the radio in absolute horror and on the verge of tears. I'll never forget that day.

To me 9/11 is this generations JFK assassination. Everyone will remember where they were and what they were doing that day.

and the commission that will never find out anything

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 1, 2004, 5:59 pm

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 1, 2004, 6:23 pm

Sionistic wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Once the news came across saying that someone called a relative and said it was a hijacking, the mood turned fast. I remember being in my cubical listening to the radio in absolute horror and on the verge of tears. I'll never forget that day.

To me 9/11 is this generations JFK assassination. Everyone will remember where they were and what they were doing that day.
and the commission that will never find out anything

We'll know the JFK seekrits around 2038 when the documents are unclassified!

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » June 1, 2004, 7:25 pm

while we are on the subject, the jfk movie has been showing pretty often on dtv, does anyone know any site or such that had arguements against the movie?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 1, 2004, 7:33 pm

You know.. I've tried and I've tried but I really can't see why people praise JFK up into the clouds..

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 1, 2004, 7:36 pm

Kelshara wrote:You know.. I've tried and I've tried but I really can't see why people praise JFK up into the clouds..

With all of the liberal dweebs on this board you should get an answer to that. JFK did his best to keep us out of war. That's why he was murdered afterall. JFK alive = no Vietnam.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 1, 2004, 7:58 pm

Thing is (and this will be completely imho), you have to actually DO something to be considered a great President. Which means you have to be in power for a longer period of time. JFK might have had the chance of becoming a great president, but from what I have seen.. he was charismatic, a good speaker and a rallying point.. that did nada.

Seriously, I would love to hear more about this since I simply don't get the JFK glorification..

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 1, 2004, 8:37 pm

I'm with ya Kel. I never got it, until I saw Clinton. He was the same to me imho. Charasmatic, a womanizer, who did little while in office, but was loved and heralded by so many. It boggles my mind.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » June 1, 2004, 8:46 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I'm with ya Kel. I never got it, until I saw Clinton. He was the same to me imho. Charasmatic, a womanizer, who did little while in office, but was loved and heralded by so many. It boggles my mind.

Im sure 8 years of peace and one of the best economys in american history had nothing at all to do with it.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » June 1, 2004, 8:47 pm

Im not too certain on my memory of jfk era politics, but I think the reason why many loved him was for the way he handled the missile crisis, civil rights, and staying out of vietnam.

edit: oh and space travel I think

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 1, 2004, 8:52 pm

Xzion wrote: Im sure 8 years of peace and one of the best economys in american history had nothing at all to do with it.

Thanks to Reagan and Bush!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » June 1, 2004, 10:04 pm

actually in 1993 the Wall Street Journal credited the change in economic policy of the Clinton administration for rapidly moving us out of the recession held over from the Bush presidency.

Over the last ~80 years, the S&P 500 averages around 9% gains in years with Democratic presidents, and around 6% with Republican presidents. It is a myth that Republicans are necessarily better for the economy. Anybody with any sense at all can realize that the current "economic policy" is more akin to looting than economic stimulus. Oh wait, i believe that was The Economist last year which opined thusly.

At any rate, Clinton also had the good fortune of being president during the internet boom, but that all happened thanks to Al Gore, so on second thought I guess it is OK for him to get credit

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 1, 2004, 10:21 pm

Yes Voronwe, the internet boom. Which can be easily tied into the Entrepeneur boom in the 80's under the Reagan/Bush years which encouraged such an environment....trickle down economics.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 1, 2004, 11:13 pm

It's all ball bearings these days.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » June 2, 2004, 1:49 am

Winnow wrote:It's all ball bearings these days.

Maybe you need a refresher course!

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 2, 2004, 5:42 am

If you truly think a commercial airliner could crash into a building because of pilot error you are absofuckinglutely retarded. End of story. It's simply IMPOSSIBLE for that to happen unless it's intentional. Or, perhaps, an equipment malfunction. But definitely NOT pilot error. The fucking planes can fly themselves.

It was blatantly obvious this was something more sinister than an accident - and something that should have warranted a Presidential response, especially after the second plane. But, no, our President sat in a classroom and then held a press conference and didn't deal with the obvious crisis and threat not only to our nation but to himself until at least 45 minutes later.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 2, 2004, 6:06 am

Xzion wrote:Im sure 8 years of peace and one of the best economys in american history had nothing at all to do with it.

It's not really fair to say our economy was one of the best in American history during the Clinton administration. Granted, the stock market was at record levels, but it was a superficial high. The market was buoyed on Internet startups that had no product and never showed any profit. The "good market" was a result of overspeculation and eventually corrected itself - dropping nearly 8% in one week alone.It was really quite similar to the roaring 20s - which led up to the great depression. While the rich got richer, the poor didn't share in that prosperity (the richest 5% in the nation went from making just over 18% of GDP to nearly 22% of GDP during Clinton's administration). Thankfully we learned a lot from the crash of 1929 and have many more safeguards or we may have found ourselves in another depression!

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 2, 2004, 6:44 am

Kelshara wrote:Thing is (and this will be completely imho), you have to actually DO something to be considered a great President. Which means you have to be in power for a longer period of time. JFK might have had the chance of becoming a great president, but from what I have seen.. he was charismatic, a good speaker and a rallying point.. that did nada.

Seriously, I would love to hear more about this since I simply don't get the JFK glorification..

By no means am I a huge JFK fan, but there are some things I admire him for. I'd say at the very least his handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis was worthy of praise. He managed to accomplish the removal of missiles from Cuba and avoid war at the same time. Arguably he was working toward an end of the Cold War, he was the first President to sign both disarmament and nuclear test ban treaties/bills into law. And, though he did not live to see it done, he did enact the policy that put a man on the Moon. Though that's of debatable importance, personally I consider the exploration of our universe an important endeavor and I don't think I'm alone. He also helped foster the 24th Amendment.

But as a whole I'm not fond of his strengthening welfare beyond the point of a helping hand to the point of becoming a free ride. Also, though it's been argued that he was moving to pull out of Vietnam, he did escalate our involvement there early in his Presidency. And the Bay of Pigs was a complete and utter debacle.

Hopefully the first part of my post helped answer your question. As a matter of speculation, I think, ultimately, history tends to remember assassinated Presidents fondly, focusing more on the good things they did than the bad. I'd venture a guess that if you asked most American's who they thought the best 3 Presidents in history were, two of them would be Abraham Lincoln and JFK (obviously the third being George Washington). I don't think it's a coincidence that two of them were assassinated. People don't want to be perceived as badmouthing someone who died heroicly in service to the nation, so their faults are often ignored and only the good remembered.

How's that for a convoluted attempt at an answer?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 2, 2004, 9:28 am

If a new president today was sleeping with Nicole Kidman on the side, hanging out with a Coke Dealer named Lawford, and blew something like Bay of Pigs we would impeach them, and any good he did would be ignored.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » June 2, 2004, 11:47 am

Presidents undoubtably have some influence on the economy, but I think how much is usually greatly overstated. There are a vast number of other factors, both within government and without that determine the health of the economy. Not to say it isn't good when a president puts forth sound economic proposals, and bad when they support poor ones.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » June 2, 2004, 12:24 pm

Sionistic wrote:and the commission that will never find out anything

They would also prove that there was only 1 plane on 9\11. The "magic plane" theory.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 2, 2004, 12:38 pm

The chairman of the Fed has more direct, short-term influence on the economy than any president. Reagan's policies, with the exception of bullying OPEC into sending us more and cheaper oil, didn't really bear fruit until his second term.

Clinton was smart enough not to fix something that wasn't broken. His administration did let a lot of huge companies hide massive debts through shady accounting, but it's not like the President is directly involved in the business practices office.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 2, 2004, 12:54 pm

Winnow wrote:Everyone was speculating about what was going on. The only morons on this thread are the ones thinking they would have done something different in the very first few minutes after the initial crash.

I agree. The people in the second tower were advised to return to work. They were told to return to their death over the loudspeaker. The specific bosses who told their workers to take off were the lucky ones.

No one knew what was going on. No one had ANY clue the building could possibly fall else the second tower would have been evacuated immediately. I was glad I took the fuck off when I did. I only got caught in the wispy clouds because I hustled my ass around the outskirts underneath the FDR. Fuck if I was going to go down on that ship

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 2, 2004, 1:13 pm

Chidoro,

Wow, you were there? Glad you got out man. I'm sorry you had to go through that. It must have been terrifying.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 2, 2004, 2:02 pm

I was watching CNBC very early that morning so I caught the entire thing starting from the CNBC roof camera zooming in on the first tower. They werent even sure what kind of plane it was. From looking at the initial damage they had no clue it was a huge jetliner.

Chidoro backs up the statement that even at the scene, people didn't know the severity of what had happened. No one knew there was 3 other hijacked planes in the air.

You're simply fucked in the head if you're going to play monday morning disaster controller and start spouting off what so and so should have been doing.

The shit hit the fan when the second tower was hit. End of story. After that, it was pure chaos and time to start wondering how big this attack actually was...After the Pentagon was hit, it got even wilder.

This is easily verified right here in our archives. Read the blow by blow thread that VVers posted as 911 unfolded.

http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?top ... 535&page=1

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 2, 2004, 2:49 pm

Reading that I find it scary to see how many knee-jerk reactions there were screaming for nukes.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 2, 2004, 3:04 pm

Nah. It's a normal human reaction. Clearer heads prevail after a while.

Wow, going through that thread and re-living that moment is very un-nerving. God damn, what an awful day.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 2, 2004, 3:22 pm

vn_kyoukan
Posts: 892
Registered: Jan 01
Date Posted: 9/11/01 8:25am Subject: RE: Holy Fuck
Osama Bin Laden is being blamed at the moment cause 2-3 weeks ago, he promised an unprecedented attack on the USA. I think US officials had an idea that he wasn't just making threats.. only they obviously couldn't know what exactly he was up to.

Wow. A reasonable post by Kyo. Wish she would write more like this.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » June 2, 2004, 4:25 pm

BTW, I'm not saying his initial reaction should have been that it was a terrorist attack, just that, as a former pilot, he should have known it was utterly impossible for that to happen as a result of pilot error. Even a hardware malfunction is all but impossible - they would have done everything possible to avoid crashing into one of most populous metropolitan areas in the world. If they couldn't land the plane, they'd have aimed for the ocean or some sparsely populated area. The most probable explanation, especially for anyone that knows about all the safeguards in commercial airplanes to prevent accidental crash landings, is that it was intentional. Even if all three members of the cockpit crew were incapacitated, the plane will not allow itself to be flown into the ground unless the autopilot is manually overridden. At this point, it's intentional, not pilot error. Either it was an almost inconceivable mechanical problem or it was intentional. It can't have been pilot error, the plane simply will not let

I'm not saying that he should have known the full severity. There's no way he could have known, right off, that it was terrorism. Nobody did. But a commercial airliner crashing into a metropolitan area is a huge issue in and of itself. At the very least he should have been concerned for the passengers and the people working in and around the building and started the investigative process to find out how something like that could have happened. Instead, he blew it off, and that's irresponsible.

I suppose I could see someone totally ignorant of the safeguards in commercial airliners, designed specifically to prevent something like this happening on accident, having this reaction to it. But even then, it's a fairly glib and uncompassionate response. It's not a rational response for anyone with even a minor understanding of the systems in place. "As a former pilot," he should have more than a minor understanding of them - even if they have evolved significantly since he was actively flying. Personally, I believe he should have known that the plane was hijacked. It was identified as such 30 minutes before it impacted with the tower. I don't believe that's entirely his error, though. It was more a procedural lapse that somehow prevented his being informed. Personally, I think a hijacking is something the President should be immediately informed of.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » June 2, 2004, 5:31 pm

Damn, I hate reading my own recount of the day. Still get tears

Siji · Post by **Siji** » June 3, 2004, 1:10 am

Winnow wrote:We'll know the JFK seekrits around 2038 when the documents are unclassified!

I could be wrong, but I thought the JFK documents were all released early by Clinton. And it was found that all the originals were blacked out, so no new information was really released.

Someone, somewhere knows. But I'm not waiting on it being made public. It certainly wasn't some lanky freak with a suppository in his ass.. I mean, in a book building. Whatever.