Justice is served!

miir · Post by **miir** » May 19, 2004, 12:42 pm

U.S. Soldier Gets Year Jail Term for Prisoner Abuse

'Expelled' from the Army and a year in jail.

I expect the guys who wired up their genitals or stomped on their necks to get 2-3 years.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 19, 2004, 12:52 pm

Being expelled from the Army is no joke, he will never be able to get a job better than store clerk for his lifetime. A dishonorable marks you as scum.

Of course I think he should be shot, but within the confines of the UCMJ they tagged him as hard as they could, and I do not find any failing in this. They need to identify everyone who was aware of what was happening and did not put an immediate stop to it and be done.

I realize you want them to brand them crucify them and throw stones at them, but it is not realistic to expect that, and the fact that the US is a nation of laws not men, means that they have to be punished within our system for their specific actions, not the overall consequences of those actions.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 19, 2004, 12:54 pm

If he received a dishonorable discharge, that's nothing to scoff at. It's almost impossible to get a decent job in the US with a dishonorable discharge on your record. Based on the article you provided, he's only getting such a light imprisonment because of his willingness to provide information about some of the more gross violators of conduct.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 19, 2004, 12:56 pm

Having watched a lot of Law and Order, he probably made some deal for a reduced sentenced. You actually might see the others get somewhere around 5 years.

Edit: Grammar.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 19, 2004, 1:03 pm

Being expelled from the Army is no joke, he will never be able to get a job better than store clerk for his lifetime.

Are you required to list military service on a resume/job application?
Is that sort of information available to anyone?

I realize you want them to brand them crucify them and throw stones at them, but it is not realistic to expect that, and the fact that the US is a nation of laws not men, means that they have to be punished within our system for their specific actions, not the overall consequences of those actions

No, but I think they should make an example out of them.
If you had a similar civilian job (a prison guard) and you participated in similar actions, would you expect to receive such a leniant sentence?

You actually might see the others get somewhere around 5 years.

5 years for humiliation, physical abuse and torture?
Is your justice system really that fucking lax?

noel · Post by **noel** » May 19, 2004, 1:04 pm

I have to kind of side with Kylere here. A year in prison plus a dishonorable discharge is fairly significant.

What kind of punishment are you expecting, Miir? You're a reasonable guy... if this were happening in a normal US prison, the person in question would probably lose his job, and possibly be brought up on charges. I'd imagine a similar sentencing.

The other thing that strikes me here is that the US found out about it, and is attempting to take action to make sure it never happens again as well as punish the people who were involved. It's unfortunate and embarassing that a small number of soldiers had to act like complete fucktards, but those fucktards are being punished, and dealt with. That all seems very reasonable to me. Am I wrong here?

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » May 19, 2004, 1:45 pm

The other thing that strikes me here is that the US found out about it, and is attempting to take action to make sure it never happens again as well as punish the people who were involved.

I guess part of this sort of hinges on what is the status of these prisoners: are the PoWs in the Geneva Convention context or not? If so, then this type of treatment could be said to be war crimes. Although they face serious repercussions as is, IMO this would make the entire affair even more significant.

The other question is: what is aharsh enough prison sentence? Obviously opinions will vary on that. You want to punish fairly but not over punish. You also want to provide a strong incentive to steer clear of this type of behaviour as well. From an "internation political" perspective, most people outside the US have no idea what the impact of your type of military discharge has on your future,so even while it holds significant stigma in the USA, we non-Americans have no frame of reference. Its a tightrope: you have to punish the crime in a fair manner and also convince the world that it was a just punishment, or lose even more credibility.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 19, 2004, 1:51 pm

A dishonorable military discharge in the US is a kiss of death. You're basically completely fucked if you're dishonorably discharged. It's next to impossible to get a job with a dishonorable discharge. If you apply for a job that requires an application, they ask if you've ever been in the military, and what your discharge status was (there are a few types). A job that requires a resume will typically involve some level of background check/application that will flush out the dishonorable discharge.

It's probably one of the worst things you can have hanging over you. It never goes away, and you're basically always fucked if you have one. It's like a curse.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 19, 2004, 1:53 pm

Kylere wrote:Being expelled from the Army is no joke, he will never be able to get a job better than store clerk for his lifetime. A dishonorable marks you as scum.

There's always the life of crime which is now one of his better options after getting out of prison since he can't get a decent job!

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » May 19, 2004, 1:54 pm

Normally, I would agree with you Aranuil. But this situation is different, considering there are people that actively support what these soldiers did. They won't have any problem at all getting a job.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 19, 2004, 1:56 pm

Vetiria wrote:Normally, I would agree with you Aranuil. But this situation is different, considering there are people that actively support what these soldiers did. They won't have any problem at all getting a job.

Yeah, actually I didn't even think of that.

I still can't think of what an appropriate punishment is.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » May 19, 2004, 1:57 pm

Yeah, they can get hired by the Kerry campaign telling the public what thier evil Republican warlord leaders made them do against thier pure humanitarian natures and why Bush must be deposed.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 19, 2004, 1:59 pm

Would be interesting to figure out what would have happened to a civilian jail guard in a similar position. I don't know half enough about law to even begin working that out.

That said.. I was not aware of how bad a dishonorable discharge would be. When I first read the sentence I thought to myself "wow that's weak", and I'd imagine that a lot of others outside of the US will think the same thing. I wonder how much this will actually help rectify the image (to those like me who don't have the knowledge of how severe it can be) that has been tarnished by the soldiers involved.

That said, I'd much rather see they go for those higher up in the chain of command than the idiots at the bottom who were too stupid to know better.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 19, 2004, 2:02 pm

Maybe we can look at other cases to see what should be done!!

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those U.N. peacekeeping atrocities
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

© 1997 WorldNetDaily.com

Nobody's talking about it in the United States. Not even Rush Limbaugh. In the American press, there's been a virtual blackout of coverage. In fact, only Agence France Presse, the London Telegraph and the South China Morning Post, of all the world's media, have given any serious attention to the incredible story of United Nations peacekeeping atrocities in Somalia.

You have to ask yourself, why?

How sensational is this non-story? Yesterday, the London Telegraph, in a combined dispatch with AFP, reported that Belgian troops roasted a Somali boy. Roasted him! And what was the sentence for this peace crime committed during an operation dubbed ironically "Restore Hope"? A military court sentenced two paratroopers to a month in jail and a fine of 200 pounds.

And, apparently, this is not just an isolated incident. Another Belgian soldier stands accused of forcing a young Somali to eat pork, drink salt water and then eat his own vomit. Another sergeant is suspected of having murdered a Somali whom he was photographed urinating upon. Another child, accused of stealing food from the paratroopers' base, died after being locked in a storage container for 48 hours. Fifteen other members of the same regiment were investigated in 1995 for "acts of sadism and torture" against Somali civilians.

But, don't worry, says Defense Minister Jean-Pol Poncelet. Any soldier convicted of criminal acts in Somalia will be -- are you ready? -- dishonorably discharged.

The pattern of abuse is also not confined to Belgian troops. Belgium is actually the third country in the peacekeeping group to charge troops with serious crimes against Somali citizens -- including rape, torture and murder. In 1995, a group of Canadian paratroopers were investigated for torturing a Somali to death and killing three others.

Earlier this month, gruesome photos were published in a Milan magazine of Italian soldiers torturing a Somali youth and abusing and raping a Somali girl. Paratroopers claim they were specifically trained in methods of torture to aid interrogation. According to one witness, Italian soldiers tied a young Somali girl to the front of an armored personnel carrier and raped her while officers looked on.

On Monday, the South China Morning Post published an AFP report about an Italian battalion commander who sexually abused and strangled a 13-year-old Somali boy. There are also allegations that, in 1993, Italian soldiers beat seven suspected Somali thieves, killing one; that they beat to death a 14-year-old boy who sold a false medal and beat a couple in a car.

Last week, an Italian paratrooper was quoted as saying: "What's the big deal? They are just niggers anyway."

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » May 19, 2004, 2:03 pm

He did not get a dishonorable discharge. He recieved a Bad conduct discharge. The tiers are Honorable, General, Other than Honorable, Bad Conduct Discharge (called Big Chicken Dinner by us vets, you dont want a big chicken dinner) and a dishonorable. He should have recieved a dishonorable for this, he got off easy.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 19, 2004, 2:06 pm

miir wrote:
Being expelled from the Army is no joke, he will never be able to get a job better than store clerk for his lifetime.
Are you required to list military service on a resume/job application?
Is that sort of information available to anyone?

I realize you want them to brand them crucify them and throw stones at them, but it is not realistic to expect that, and the fact that the US is a nation of laws not men, means that they have to be punished within our system for their specific actions, not the overall consequences of those actions
No, but I think they should make an example out of them.
If you had a similar civilian job (a prison guard) and you participated in similar actions, would you expect to receive such a leniant sentence?

You actually might see the others get somewhere around 5 years.
5 years for humiliation, physical abuse and torture?
Is your justice system really that fucking lax?

Is yours?

"Parts of Canada's military have gone bad and those in charge don t want to deal with it. The sentences handed out to date in courts martial reflect that: the toughest sentence in Shidane Arone's death was five years to Pte. Kyle Brown, who served just over 1½ years before being paroled. Five soldiers who watched the torture were later promoted. No one was charged in the deaths of the two other Somali teens. "

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » May 19, 2004, 2:10 pm

I never knew that there was such repercussion attached to a dishonorable discharge.

I guess the only way someone could get away and live a normal life after that would be to move to canada or europe where they wouldn't necesarily look at your past service history.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 19, 2004, 2:11 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:He did not get a dishonorable discharge. He recieved a Bad conduct discharge. The tiers are Honorable, General, Other than Honorable, Bad Conduct Discharge (called Big Chicken Dinner by us vets, you dont want a big chicken dinner) and a dishonorable. He should have recieved a dishonorable for this, he got off easy.

Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't know there were two different levels of 'negative' discharges. Please continue being critical of the US Military, and don't mind me.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 19, 2004, 2:13 pm

I love Cartalas' form of arguments: Never actually responds to questions, just posts a bunch of info that is really irrelevant to the case at hand. Never fails.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » May 19, 2004, 2:16 pm

Aranuil wrote:
Krimson Klaw wrote:He did not get a dishonorable discharge. He recieved a Bad conduct discharge. The tiers are Honorable, General, Other than Honorable, Bad Conduct Discharge (called Big Chicken Dinner by us vets, you dont want a big chicken dinner) and a dishonorable. He should have recieved a dishonorable for this, he got off easy.
Thanks for clarifying that. I didn't know there were two different levels of 'negative' discharges. Please continue being critical of the US Military, and don't mind me.

That I will, and don't worry I won't.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 19, 2004, 2:21 pm

For the record, I do expect the sentencing to be 'relatively' light on the subordinates, and considerably more severe for the commanding officers. It was the responsibility of the officers to maintain control of the troops beneath them, and as such the failure here is truly theirs.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 19, 2004, 2:21 pm

Kelshara wrote:I love Cartalas' form of arguments: Never actually responds to questions, just posts a bunch of info that is really irrelevant to the case at hand. Never fails.

Oh well I just like to point out that before Miir pisses all over the American justice system maybe he needs to clean up his backyard first.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » May 19, 2004, 2:45 pm

I don't think they will issue you a passport if you are dishonorably discharged. Basically the dumbass's life is fucked now. I would rather do 5 years in jail than have a bad discharge. Hope the guy likes working at Mickey D's the rest of his life.

If it had been my choice, I would of thrown him and his buddies into an Iraq prison for 30 days. His ass would have been looser than Goatse

noel · Post by **noel** » May 19, 2004, 3:14 pm

AS KRIMSON EXPLAINED, HE IS NOT DISHONORABLY DISCHARGED.

He probably should have been.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 19, 2004, 3:38 pm

Since the US has placed itself on a higher moral ground, perhaps they can set a precedent on what should be done to the individuals who commited these atrocities.

Cartalas, information surrounding the incident involving the Canadian Airborne Regiment in Somalia over 10 years ago is readily available to anyone with access to google. Unless your intent is to justify the lax punishment, I'll have to assume your just up to your usual infantile trolling.

We can start a thread to discuss Somalia if you like, but this forum is more intended for current events.

This situation is extremely sensitive and is being watched closely worldwide. While 1 year in jail and a discharge may seem like adequate punishement to yourself, the rest of the world sees it as being far to lenient.

International opinion of the US is really in the shitter right now... and this isn't going to help.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 19, 2004, 3:44 pm

miir wrote:Since the US has placed itself on a higher moral ground, perhaps they can set a precedent on what should be done to the individuals who commited these atrocities.

Cartalas, information surrounding the incident involving the Canadian Airborne Regiment in Somalia over 10 years ago is readily available to anyone with access to google. Unless your intent is to justify the lax punishment, I'll have to assume your just up to your usual infantile trolling.

We can start a thread to discuss Somalia if you like, but this forum is more intended for current events.

This situation is extremely sensitive and is being watched closely worldwide. While 1 year in jail and a discharge may seem like adequate punishement to yourself, the rest of the world sees it as being far to lenient.

International opinion of the US is really in the shitter right now... and this isn't going to help.

Oh so ten years ago it was okay for a man to serve 1.5 years for murder, Oh I see.

Im not trying to justify shit pal, Im just calling you on the carpet everytime you attack the US on subjects that your beloved Moose fucking govt. did the same thing.

the man should be punished to the full extent of the law, Unless he was told to do this by his superiors.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 19, 2004, 3:45 pm

a year in jail and he can get out and get a job at blackwater or dynacorp and go back to Iraq making $2000 a day stomping on Iraqi necks at the expense of US taxpayers. yeah nice punishment guys.

oh nos he'll never get a job after getting discharged from the army. like anyone would ever look.

no one will ever even remember his name 2 weeks from now and he'll have a lot of stories he can tell his equally racist grandkids about how he tortured mooslums for fun.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 19, 2004, 3:49 pm

Oh so ten years ago it was okay for a man to serve 1.5 years for murder, Oh I see.

Dude, stop being such a fucking troll.
I know you're capable of a decent argument/discussion when you actually use your brain... why do you always resort to childish trolling and topic derailing?

Where did I or anyone say that a 5 year sentence for second degree murder is 'ok'?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 19, 2004, 3:53 pm

miir wrote:
Oh so ten years ago it was okay for a man to serve 1.5 years for murder, Oh I see.
Dude, stop being such a fucking troll.
I know you're capable of a decent argument/discussion when you actually use your brain... why do you always resort to childish trolling and topic derailing?

Where did I or anyone say that a 5 year sentence for second degree murder is 'ok'?

Why? you ask because of statements like this

"5 years for humiliation, physical abuse and torture?
Is your justice system really that fucking lax?"

IS YOUR JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT FUCKING LAX?

Your govt. gives a 5 yr sentance to a murderer and he only serves 1.5 yrs and you have the seeds to say my govt. is lax. PLEEEEESSSSSSE

miir · Post by **miir** » May 19, 2004, 3:58 pm

Yes, I think a 5 year sentence considering the circumstances would be lax.
I also think that 5 years for 2nd degree murder was a travesty.

I'm not the one changing the subject trying deflect attention away from the issue at hand. Is your evasion of the issue due to the fact that you agree with the light sentencing of these soldiers?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 19, 2004, 4:00 pm

miir wrote:Yes, I think a 5 year sentence considering the circumstances would be lax.
I also think that 5 years for 2nd degree murder was a travesty.

Thank you at least we both agree they both ( canadian and American), Got off easy.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 19, 2004, 4:02 pm

Fucking christ, if you agree, why are you being such an idiot?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 19, 2004, 4:06 pm

miir wrote:Fucking christ, if you agree, why are you being such an idiot?

As I said I was just as upset at the sentence as you were, but your statement about how Lax OUR!!! system was Like OUR!!! system is the only system that would be laxed in that situation.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 19, 2004, 4:31 pm

Regardless of the terminology the guy did not get an honorable discharge. This means he lost everything a vet is due. The guy is never going to have a career anywhere outside of the low end service industry. No one is going to swoop him up for Haliburton, no one is going to ignore his past record. Even menial jobs do a records check on you now.

Considering the actions of every so called civilized nations soldiers ( and specifically the nations of the posters in this thread) none of you have a single leg to stand on in relation to the issue. There have been and always will be corrupt scum who will abuse any power they can grab regardless of what national boundary they were born within.

Anything short of equal treatment is unacceptable, but for the US bashers to start talking smack when none of their countries are any better is equally unacceptable.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 19, 2004, 4:47 pm

miir wrote:Since the US has placed itself on a higher moral ground, perhaps they can set a precedent on what should be done to the individuals who commited these atrocities.

I am in no way defending the actions of these fucktards, but they sure as fuck weren't atrocities. We're not talking about a Nazi concentration camp here.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 19, 2004, 4:48 pm

You're working on the assumption that us 'US bashers' supported our legal system when they let our offenders off easy.

Give me a fucking break.

I'm no hypocrite.
It was wrong for the Canadian tribunal to let any of those scumbags off easy. I was offended by the weak sentencing.

Why is it 'unacceptable' for me to start 'talking smack' about your lax system making the exact same fucking mistake 10 years later?

The point is that the US could set a precedent in sentencing these soldiers but it's obvious that they will not. History is generally the best teacher.
Choosing to ignore the lessons learned from history makes you worse than those who made the same mistake before you.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » May 19, 2004, 4:50 pm

edit: Miir posted my thoughts probably better than I did

miir · Post by **miir** » May 19, 2004, 4:52 pm

am in no way defending the actions of these fucktards, but they sure as fuck weren't atrocities

Murdering a prisoner who tried to throw a rock at a guard?
Attaching charged wires to prisoners genitals?
Stomping on the necks of naked prisoners laying face down on concrete floors?
Rape?

Are these not considered atrocities in your country?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 19, 2004, 5:02 pm

The point is quite simple Miir.

People in glass houses should not throw stones.

noel · Post by **noel** » May 19, 2004, 5:05 pm

It's a semantical argument. I would not use the word atrocity, for something like this where you have a relatively small number of incidents and you have actual punishment occuring. This isn't the same, and cannot be compared to the Holocaust, the bullshit that went on in the Killing fields of Cambodia, or what went on in Bosnia.

Just my opinion, and a semantical argument. You're free to call it what you like, but I personally wouldn't use the word atrocity.

For the record, in my country, we call those actions crimes, and if people are caught doing it, they're punished.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 19, 2004, 5:18 pm

Kylere wrote:The point is quite simple Miir.

People in glass houses should not throw stones.

Perhaps you should follow your own advice... or do you want me to drudge up Vietnam?

Edit: forgot to address this point:

Considering the actions of every so called civilized nations soldiers <snip> none of you have a single leg to stand on in relation to the issue.

I criticised my own goverment, why are my points not valid when I criticise yours for the same thing?

Karae · Post by **Karae** » May 19, 2004, 5:42 pm

Aranuil wrote:
Vetiria wrote:Normally, I would agree with you Aranuil. But this situation is different, considering there are people that actively support what these soldiers did. They won't have any problem at all getting a job.
Yeah, actually I didn't even think of that.

I still can't think of what an appropriate punishment is.

Saw off his head with a knife!

Ok maybe not...

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 19, 2004, 6:38 pm

I'm going to wait to see how harshly the CO of the prison gets punished. Anything less than a DD and 5+ years prison time is unacceptable.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » May 19, 2004, 6:43 pm

Kylere wrote:The point is quite simple Miir.

People in glass houses should not throw stones.

That depends on wether you are willing to throw stones at your own house IMO. I think you will find, as I have experienced, that most canadians are the first to throw stones at our own government's fuckups. We do not suffer from the same nationalistic blindfolders many americans wear. The 5 year sentence handed out to the Canadian soldier was highly criticized here. I still don't understand how that happened. The 2nd guy majorly involved recieved a more appropriate punishment, he tried to hang himself and suffered brain damage.

All that said, without knowing more details and having to assume this guy's violations were on the minor side 1 year in prison and a discharge (tho I do not understand why it would not be dishonorable) seems reasonable to me. Especially considering it was a plea bargain in exchange for testimony against other violators which hopefully helps get the people responsible for the more serious violations (i.e. the neck stomping).

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » May 19, 2004, 8:43 pm

So as to keep this in perspective.

This is about human beings mistreating other human beings. That's really 21st century news...

We now return you to your regularly scheduled leftist vomit.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 19, 2004, 9:58 pm

Yes because the protection of basic human rights of prisoners of war under the geneva convention is most certainly a leftist issue.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 19, 2004, 10:17 pm

I think we should put Metanis into one of these jails for abuse of brainpower, and see if he would cry for mommy and his rights then!

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » May 19, 2004, 11:52 pm

kyoukan wrote:Yes because the protection of basic human rights of prisoners of war under the geneva convention is most certainly a leftist issue.

I wonder if Nick Berg demanded his rights?

noel · Post by **noel** » May 20, 2004, 1:01 am

SHUT THE FUCK UP METANIS.

Neither crime is justifiable, or in any way right. Nick Berg being killed was an evil/wrong thing, which is completely separate from the evil wrong things that were done to the Iraqi prisoners. BOTH crimes are crimes, and both crimes deserve punishment.

You're an asshole to even bring that up in this thread. One thing has fuck all to do with another.

Bojangels · Post by **Bojangels** » May 20, 2004, 2:04 am

I think it's an appropriate punishment. I don't think it's right for us to send our guys over to shithole countries for year long stretches then nail them to a cross when they do something bad. They're living in some prett rough conditions, mentally and physically, I think they should get some slack. Not like a license to kill, but a year in Levinworth and a bcd is perfect punishment for what they did.