Discussion on a few questions

[Dregor Thule]

To try and help keep it free of fluff, I figure I'd start another thread to discuss what people are saying in the questions thread, because holy shit, I need to say something. And of course, when I say discuss, I mean flame with wanton abandon.

Holy crap Taly. You have to be one of the stupidest, blindly loyal people I've ever come into contact with. I think you're even further gone than Adex, because you present a gleeful enthusiasm that not even he puts forth. You said this piece of genius:

9. Who will you vote for in the next election? (assuming Bush/Kerry)
Bush all the way! Kerry has already made an ass out of himself on TV. Even if he hadn't I would still be voting for Bush.

The fact that you can watch any interaction between Bush and the press corps and not feel that he makes an ass of himself is a staggering blow to my precarious sanity. I'll gladly say that Kerry's a pretty weak alternative, but one I'd still take if I lived in your country.

15. How do you think the Gore administration would have handled 9/11?
I believe Gore is a chicken shit and we would have had way more terrorist problems in American like 9/11

6. Do you think we'd be in Iraq at all if Gore had been elected president?
No we would be having more 9/11 sitations to deal with here.

7. What other notable differences would there be had Gore been elected president?
More dead innocent americans on our own soil.

I don't know why I quoted this. I'm at a loss for words. I don't even want to ask if you're actually serious, because I know you are but getting further validation of the fact would just be too much. What basis do you have to believe any of that other than your partisan devotion? I have some faith (not much) that a polling of republicans would show that the majority would feel Gore would have responded to the Al Qaeda/Taliban in much the same manner as the Bush administration. Maybe I'm wrong.

Take pride in yourself tho, Taly, as I'm sure you already do. You've managed to jump several rungs on my list of crazy fanatics. No small feat considering some of the people here. Blind faith is one thing. Blind faith coupled with rampant stupidity is another beast altogether. Back, beast, back!

[Sylvus]

LOL

[noel]

Heh.

I'm glad you started this thread.

I think Arbor and Miir touched on some key issues. That I'd like to further comment on.

I agree that Bush has fucked the environment, and I don't think Gore would have done that quite as badly, and perhaps he would have even helped it. I think Airport security/homeland security would have been a much higher focus with Gore's presidency, though I think the acts would have been politicked to the point where it wouldn't make much difference which administration enacted it.

I agree that Gore's presidency would have been unremarkable save the 9/11 event/reaction, but I'm not sure that's a bad alternative to the mess we have now. I'll take unremarkable over setting us back untold numbers of years in the international community. We're not the fucking Roman empire, and we should stop fucking acting like it.

[Sueven]

Ha! This is exactly what I wanted to post (albeit a bit more politely).

My question, directed to both Morgrym and Taly: Why? Can you tell me, using specific examples of policy, ideology, behavior, or something, why you see such a distinction between Bush, Kerry, and Gore in the field of national security and terrorism?

What I mean is, can you produce a valid political argument to substantiate your claims?

[Wulfran]

What basis do you have to believe any of that other than your partisan devotion?

Lets be a little fair here Dregor. Its a hypothetical scenario, thus it is asking for any and everyone who responds to speculate, be they pro-Bush, pro-Gore, pro-Kerry or pro-Saddam. I mean a little education and research will allow people to have a more possibly sound basis for their speculation but thats it. I mean, hell, as far as all this speculation goes, with Gore in the Whitehouse Al Quaida might have fell asleep thinking about attacking the US and 9/11 may never have happened...

[Winnow]

With Gore in the White House, 911 wouldn't have happened because the US would have crumbled into a 3rd world power! We'd all be eating canadian bacon and would have dropped blue from our national colors.

With Gore's ties to inventing the internet, I do often wonder if my upload transfer rates would be as fast as those in Sweden if Gore had a chance to work his magic in office. We'd probably have Internet part deux in place by now!

[Dregor Thule]

I applaud you on your consistent ability to say nothing in so many words. You're like the essence of Seinfeld given life and made flesh without the witty comments on everyday life.

[Lalanae]

wow winnow, bringing up the so-called Gore internet comment is so fresh and creative.

but thats the best you have to work with.

[Winnow]

thx!

I'll let you know when I have a serious post.

Hmm, with the new mods being considered for this board, we should have a "rate this post" or "was this post helpful" option to rate individual posts. I'd, of course, be shooting for the lowest rating possible.

edit: the part about the upload transfer rates was serious

[Arborealus]

Think that's modifications not moderators...though I may be wrong...

[Jice Virago]

Remeber Dregor when discussing Taly we are talking about someone who pollished some pole for computer game items. So the thin line defining reality and the Sid And Marty Croft like fantasy world in her brain is tenuous at best.

[Winnow]

Think that's modifications not moderators...though I may be wrong...

Are you saying I can't use "mods" as the short term for both moderators and modifications? : )

[Arborealus]

Think that's modifications not moderators...though I may be wrong...

Are you saying I cans use "mods" as the short term for both moderators and modifications? : )

Anything to obfuscate!

[miir]

why is that sad?
My opinions and im a republican and i stand behind bush.

Do you prefer that your government tells you what to think?

You didn't post your opinions.... you just regurgitated the same bullshit propaganda that the Bush administraion has been filling your head with. Anyone that thinks Bush is doing a 'great job!' is either a fucking retard or a preschooler.

[Sueven]

Exactly. You are supposed to belong to a political party and support a political candidate for reasons.

[Chmee]

One thing in the other thread I disagree with is everyone saying is that there would be no chance we would have gotten the PATRIOT act or something close to it. Looking back is always speculative, but I think the chances are good that we would have ended up with something fairly similar. Especially since apparently there is a fair amount of stuff in the PATRIOT act that had originally been proposed by Clinton.

[miir]

6. Do you think we'd be in Iraq at all if Gore had been elected president?
Nope, and our lack of effective response would have encouraged more of the same.

Are you saying that if the US didn't invade Iraq, we would have seen more terrorist attacks?

I think the exact opposite is true.

[Kylere]

6. Do you think we'd be in Iraq at all if Gore had been elected president?
Nope, and our lack of effective response would have encouraged more of the same.

Are you saying that if the US didn't invade Iraq, we would have seen more terrorist attacks?

I think the exact opposite is true.

I think a lack of response to terrorism in terms of abating, curtailing or controlling it, only encourages them to try bigger and bigger things. Terrorists function a good deal like children who want attention, they go;

hey, hey, Hey, Hey, HEY, HEY, LOOK AT ME, LOOK LOOK LOOK, Okay if you do not give me attention I am going to do something bad, I DID SOMETHING BAD, I DID SOMETHING WORSE, I DID SOMETHING WORSE.

Same mind set, same mental capabilities. Same reason you cannot give into terrorists demands, because like spoiled children that means they decide that whenever they are unhappy they can do it again.


On a side note related to the whole Al Gore thing, don't any of you left leaning, liberal type democrats have a memory that exceed the last 6 months, I voted against him instead of for Bush. Gore is more conservative than many republican politicians, hell don't any of you remember a thing called the PMRC? Record labeling, congressional conferences with Frank Zappa, Dee Schnieder, etc?

Christ, a vote for Gore was a vote for that kind of mindset in the White House, not wanting a controlling christian ultra conservative in the office, I am not going to vote for one that denies it. At least the up and up guy will be honest about being a moron.

[Dregor Thule]

Yes, because right now the entertainment world isn't facing over-zealous censorships introduced from right-wing bible thumpers who have no one to curtail their biased opinions because their superiors are their cheerleading squad.

think a lack of response to terrorism in terms of abating, curtailing or controlling it, only encourages them to try bigger and bigger things.

There's some truth in this statement. By invading Iraq you guys have managed to exert some illusion of control on terrorists by creating whole new batches of them. You curtailed figments of the administrations imagination. Congratulations! Last night in my dream I was a viking! Hoorj. Don't you ever think before you post something?

[Atokal]

Last night in my dream I was a viking! Hoorj. Don't you ever think before you post something?

Last night in your dreams you were thin, intelligent, and Aranuil was smoking your pole.

Viking indeed HA

[masteen]

Last night in my dream I was a viking! Hoorj. Don't you ever think before you post something?

Last night in your dreams you were thin, intelligent, and Aranuil was smoking your pole.

Viking indeed HA

That's MY dream, fucker! Get your own!

[Dregor Thule]

I expect an avatar of a fat person to appear under Atokal's name as his next original comeback.

[noel]

It's nice to see that 'the stupid' has fully infected this thread.

I just wanted to comment on one of Kylere's points...

You mentioned that having the President fly around was a bad idea. Not really. If you read, Clancy's Sum of All Fears (fairly certain that's the one), they talk about NEACP (National Emergency Airborne Command Post) and pronounced "Kneecap". They do that on purpose to prevent him from being a target. Though the government continues to function if the President is killed, the symbolic aspect of having him killed would be highly damaging, hence the need to put him in a safe place during a crisis.

[Arborealus]

Though the government continues to function if the President is killed

Yeah when the Pres is killed Alexander Haig takes over!

[miir]

I think a lack of response to terrorism in terms of abating, curtailing or controlling it, only encourages them to try bigger and bigger things. Terrorists function a good deal like children who want attention, they go;

For fuck sakes, stop trying to cling to the belief that there was any tie between terrorism and invading Iraq.

Exactly HOW is invading, occupying and annexing Iraq a response to terrorism? There was no evidence before or since the invasion to substantiate any links between Saddam and terrorism... and him publicly encouraging Palestinians to 'martyr' themselves doesn't quite cut it.



It seems to me that there is chronic ignorance in your country surrounding the motivation behind the US invasion of Iraq.

Do people still believe that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks?
Do people still believe Iraq had WMDs?
Do people think Iraq was cesspool of corruption and oppression where people being shot dead in the street was a daily occurance?
Do people believe that Saddam was radomly 'killing his own people'?

[masteen]

It seems to me that there is chronic ignorance in your country surrounding the motivation behind the US invasion of Iraq.

Do people still believe that Iraq was involved in the 9/11 attacks?

No.

Do people still believe Iraq had WMDs?

No. We were definitely premature on this invasion.

Do people think Iraq was cesspool of corruption and oppression where people being shot dead in the street was a daily occurance?

No. We now know that they were rounded up and tortured to death by Saddam's son's and lackeys. Iraq was a fucking beacon of freedom and enlightenment under the Baathists.

Do people believe that Saddam was radomly 'killing his own people'?

No. He very carefully chose the people he had killed.

[miir]

No. We now know that they were rounded up and tortured to death by Saddam's son's and lackeys. Iraq was a fucking beacon of freedom and enlightenment under the Baathists.

Compare the personal and religious freedoms Iraqis had under Saddam to the personal and religious freedoms in other middle eastern countries.

[Kylere]

It's nice to see that 'the stupid' has fully infected this thread.

I just wanted to comment on one of Kylere's points...

You mentioned that having the President fly around was a bad idea. Not really. If you read, Clancy's Sum of All Fears (fairly certain that's the one), they talk about NEACP (National Emergency Airborne Command Post) and pronounced "Kneecap". They do that on purpose to prevent him from being a target. Though the government continues to function if the President is killed, the symbolic aspect of having him killed would be highly damaging, hence the need to put him in a safe place during a crisis.

Do not take Clancy that seriously, he blows his data intentionally to avoid making it too revealing. We needed a stronger command presense that day, and Bush let his staff move him like a coward (or he is one) and that was a crying shame. Kennedy was not in the a bunker during the Berlin Air Lift or the Cuban Missile Crisis, either would have been a sign of weakness to the Soviets, not to mention not being a strong enough presense for the American people.

[Ashur]

God dammit, why can't I vote for John Patrick Ryan!

[noel]

Do not take Clancy that seriously, he blows his data intentionally to avoid making it too revealing. We needed a stronger command presense that day, and Bush let his staff move him like a coward (or he is one) and that was a crying shame. Kennedy was not in the a bunker during the Berlin Air Lift or the Cuban Missile Crisis, either would have been a sign of weakness to the Soviets, not to mention not being a strong enough presense for the American people.

In this case, Clancy is dead on, and the description of NEACP was accurate.

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=99

Mission
The E-4B serves as the National Airborne Operations Center for the president and secretary of defense. In case of national emergency or destruction of ground command control centers, the aircraft provides a highly survivable, command, control and communications center to direct U.S. forces, execute emergency war orders and coordinate actions by civil authorities.

[Kylere]

Yeah but Bush was the normal AF1 that day, and he could easily have maintained command and control from any one of the 50 places he was in easy reach of, if security was that serious, they could have flew him to NORAD with a 30 fighter escort, landed at Anderson or the AF Academy, and helicoptered him into Cheyenne Mountain from any place in the main 48 states within 3 hours, but they did not seriously touch down and get their shit together until late that evening, it was a serious mistake.

But being that the office is more important than the individual, they should have landed his happy ass at Laguardia for a NYC visit, or even at National/Reagan or Dulles for a Pentagon visit ( of course the far left nuts would have made a field day of him visiting dead soldiers before civilians)

The point is not the aircraft, the point is that he or his staff made a pussified decision. That was the last day I had any respect for Bush. A real man, a real president would have been on the air immediately, on the ground and ready to kick ass.

What is really funny is that the liberal pundits are too clueless about security and defense or he would not even bother running again, they would have owned him on the issue.

[noel]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I though it was a prudent move to keep the President out of harms way until the FBI/Military could ascertain whether there were any additional threats to National Security.

[Winnow]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I though it was a prudent move to keep the President out of harms way until the FBI/Military could ascertain whether there were any additional threats to National Security.

I agree. That was one fucked up day with mass confusion. This is another woulda coulda shoulda thread. Bush did a great job that day in REAL TIME not with a few years to ponder the matter.

[Taly]

Those are my opinions Miir not what the government tells me. fuck you jice for that comment. its old and its a lie but believe it if you will.

[Karae]

Yeah but Bush was the normal AF1 that day, and he could easily have maintained command and control from any one of the 50 places he was in easy reach of, if security was that serious, they could have flew him to NORAD with a 30 fighter escort, landed at Anderson or the AF Academy, and helicoptered him into Cheyenne Mountain from any place in the main 48 states within 3 hours, but they did not seriously touch down and get their shit together until late that evening, it was a serious mistake.

Is an elementary classroom listening to children read considereded somewhere he can "maintain command and control" from? Cos that's exactly where he sat around after he heard about the 9/11 attack.

And unlike your stupid ass, I actually have a source. http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.htm

[Kylere]

Karae you stupid piece of shit, he left that classrom upon being notified so that shows what a dumbass you are, he then went to an airplane and bopped around instead of doing anything of import, and if you do not think the President of the United States can exercise command and control from a classroom then you have never been anyhwere one visited.

You bring up an entirely moot point ot the entire issue, and google a link and think it makes you smart, it just goes to show me what a fucking moron you still are.

[Winnow]

From what I recall on that day, there was speculation that AF1 was a target so changing the schedule and flight plans was an excellent idea. I'd speculate that Bush would remain airborne or destination unknown until Chaney had reached some sort of safe command center as would be the wise thing to do.

Why would you want to land the president when it was unknown if there were any other hijacked planes or other form of attack taking place. You act like we knew for sure there wouldn't be a biological attack or chemical attack coordinated with 4 planes being hijacked. We didn't know shit and I for one am glad the president stayed away from potential targets until it was better known what was going on.

I'd expect the advisors of any president to do the same thing.

[noel]

...he then went to an airplane and bopped around instead of doing anything of import...

You make a statement like that, and have the audacity to call someone else stupid?

Just out of curiosity, I'll ask you a multiple choice question...

Where is the President most likely to have the best access to command and control systems and functionality?

A) Air Force One or NEACP.

B) An elementary school classroom.

I'll save the ridiculously easy flames I could add as options...

[Karae]

Karae you stupid piece of shit, he left that classrom upon being notified so that shows what a dumbass you are, he then went to an airplane and bopped around instead of doing anything of import, and if you do not think the President of the United States can exercise command and control from a classroom then you have never been anyhwere one visited.

You bring up an entirely moot point ot the entire issue, and google a link and think it makes you smart, it just goes to show me what a fucking moron you still are.

No, dumbass, he didn't leave immediately upon being told. Nevermind the fact that he absolutely had to have known about the hijackings before he even arrived at the school. For christ's sake, they were on the news 10 minutes before he arrived. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that you don't think Bush knew about the attacks before CNN started broadcasting them, yet he can "exercise command and control from a classromm?" Obviously he can't even exercise command and control in his limo, let alone when he's sitting in a classroom...where he sat until 9:35 - 48 minutes after the first plane crashed into the WTC, 32 minutes after the second, and nearly 40 minutes after he and Chief of Staff Andrew Card themselves claim Card first told Bush about the attack, before Bush even entered the school classroom.

Here's another link, I'm sure you'll make yourself look like an idiot again by claiming I googled it to look smart rather than actually reading it, but it goes into explicit detail about what exactly President Bush did that day.

You're faily typical of the average Bush supporter. You claim you know what happened but the only basis for your claims are Bush lies and your own misinformed opinions.

Come back when you have some real and credible information.

[Karae]

From what I recall on that day, there was speculation that AF1 was a target so changing the schedule and flight plans was an excellent idea. I'd speculate that Bush would remain airborne or destination unknown until Chaney had reached some sort of safe command center as would be the wise thing to do.

Actually, Cheney was rushed from his White House office into a secure bunker underneath the White House long before Bush left the school. The only eyewitness to this event places the time at "just after 9:00" which would approximately coincide with the time Bush was informed of the 2nd plane crash, which is obviously the time when it could no longer be considered anything other than an attack.

Why, then, did Bush stay at the school for another 30+ minutes while Cheney was being evacuated to a White House bunker? Either he was stupid enough to assume that he was safe in suck an insecure location, didn't properly recognize the threat (which seems to be a pattern of the administration), or Cheney really does run the country. I think they're all fairly unsatisfactory, but I'm hoping for the later. Cheney may be a war-mongering monster willing to kill tens of thousands of Iraqis and Americans to make a few bucks for his cronies at Halliburton, but at least he's successful! I'm much rather a corrupt successful president than a bumbling failure!

[Arilain]

Bush transfered planes in Shreveport LA for those wonerding. How do I know this? Cause when I was pulled over for a security check ( Cause my work was near the airport and oil refineries ) that day the State trooper and I bullshited for about 30 mins. The whole state was in a lockdown cause of it. It is standard proceedure to keep the president mobile during times of major crisis. Please do not forget at that time 2 planes were still not accounted for due to the fact that they were international flights.

Anyone that admits to doing war crimes and denounces his fellow soldiers is not a hero. Kerry got out of Vietnam as fast as he could. he isn't a hero in the least, but then again the only heros in the world are those that willingly give thier life so others may live. As you all bitch moan and complain about politics think about the normal people that suffer on both sides. The firefighter that ran into the WTC towers to save someone, the kid that is killed in crossfire trying to rescue his pet, the soldier or marine that saves a comrade knowing it would mean his death, all of these are heros.

Further more Saddam was paying $35,000 dollars to the families of suicide bombers in Israel. I guess that makes him a swell guy for helping make things more stable in the middle east. Oh....yeah....We have had a reactive policy toward terrorists since the 70's; after 9/11 we still had a reactive policy. Iraq was a reactive policy that has turned into a proactive policy. why do I say this? Simply cause it diverts attention from attacks on our soil and focuses to our presense in Iraq. No we aren't completely safe but I feel abit better knowing that the average terrorist that wants to make a political statement by killing Americans will head to Iraq and not the US. If I was running the country I would have invaded that madhouse after Saddam kicked out the first UN inspectors a few years back, and I would not have given him a dealdline.


Arilain

[Xzion]

Bush transfered planes in Shreveport LA for those wonerding. How do I know this? Cause when I was pulled over for a security check ( Cause my work was near the airport and oil refineries ) that day the State trooper and I bullshited for about 30 mins. The whole state was in a lockdown cause of it. It is standard proceedure to keep the president mobile during times of major crisis. Please do not forget at that time 2 planes were still not accounted for due to the fact that they were international flights.

Anyone that admits to doing war crimes and denounces his fellow soldiers is not a hero. Kerry got out of Vietnam as fast as he could. he isn't a hero in the least, but then again the only heros in the world are those that willingly give thier life so others may live. As you all bitch moan and complain about politics think about the normal people that suffer on both sides. The firefighter that ran into the WTC towers to save someone, the kid that is killed in crossfire trying to rescue his pet, the soldier or marine that saves a comrade knowing it would mean his death, all of these are heros.

Further more Saddam was paying $35,000 dollars to the families of suicide bombers in Israel. I guess that makes him a swell guy for helping make things more stable in the middle east. Oh....yeah....We have had a reactive policy toward terrorists since the 70's; after 9/11 we still had a reactive policy. Iraq was a reactive policy that has turned into a proactive policy. why do I say this? Simply cause it diverts attention from attacks on our soil and focuses to our presense in Iraq. No we aren't completely safe but I feel abit better knowing that the average terrorist that wants to make a political statement by killing Americans will head to Iraq and not the US. If I was running the country I would have invaded that madhouse after Saddam kicked out the first UN inspectors a few years back, and I would not have given him a dealdline.


Arilain

Ever see Apocalypse now? thats the kind of shit that went down in vietnam, you wouldnt denounce those soldiers as war criminals?
Kerry is a hero, he risked his life twice to save 2 soldiers, cant say that fucking coward we have in the office did the same, rather he did the opposite, he lied and cost 700+ american soldiers there lives, so dont try to compare the two.

[vn_Tanc]

the kid that is killed in crossfire trying to rescue his pet

Hero? LOL

[Winnow]

Why, then, did Bush stay at the school for another 30+ minutes while Cheney was being evacuated to a White House bunker? Either he was stupid enough to assume that he was safe in suck an insecure location, didn't properly recognize the threat (which seems to be a pattern of the administration), or Cheney really does run the country.

B: Cheney really does run the country. That's why you never see him. Bush does all the bullshit waste of time stuff while Cheney handles the important things.