Ahhhh the Church

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » May 14, 2004, 1:24 pm

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f ... 6LI561.DTL

For a religion on the ropes with child molestation charges galore, this is a REAL smart move. How like Jesus to turn your back on "sinners"

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 14, 2004, 1:27 pm

About time. Best news I've heard all day.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 14, 2004, 1:40 pm

The doctrines of the Catholic church are as closely related to the teaching of Jesus as they are to quantum string theories.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » May 14, 2004, 4:20 pm

Hmm is the new church strategy to drive them away before they leave of their own will?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » May 14, 2004, 4:49 pm

Wait, an act that tries to form consistancy between behavior and professed belief is lambasted as hypocritical?

Guy 1: "I like the color Red." " I think I'll buy a red car."
Guy 2: "OH we all know you really like blue, but go ahead and choose a red car. You blue hater."

Who's being the hypocrite? The target or the critic?

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » May 14, 2004, 5:03 pm

You agree with this bullshit Adex?

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 14, 2004, 5:05 pm

So do I! Me and Adex agree. It's a monumental milestone!

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » May 14, 2004, 5:18 pm

Wait, an act that tries to form consistancy between behavior and professed belief is lambasted as hypocritical?

Adex, give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's. This goes beyond lobbying for respect with regards to issues the Church is concerned about into actually coercing support. Professing belief in the Christian version of God does not mean you have to blindy accept everything told to you by a collection of "scholars" who claim to be interpreting the word of God.

By Christian dogma, Man is flawed (right from the get go, Adam and Eve proved that), so where do you get the Church, whether it be Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Greek Orthodox, the fuckheads that follow what Jerry Falwell preaches, or any other branch , is going to be perfect?

I am surprised the Roman Catholic Church's hierarchy doesn't step on this guy: drawing political lines in the sand is actually what led to the formation of the Church of England (the Pope was interfering with Henry VIII) and the Reformation. It was the beginning of the end for the Catholic Church as a truly powerful political force. I guess some of the RC's are just seeing the results the Baptists and other holy rollers are getting with their "Moral Majority" et al lobbies and thinking they can jerk things around too.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » May 14, 2004, 5:24 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Wait, an act that tries to form consistancy between behavior and professed belief is lambasted as hypocritical?

Any Catholic that supported the war in Iraq was going against the teaching of the Vatican. Should they be denied communion as well?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 14, 2004, 5:40 pm

Just goes to show that any belief out of balance with reality is a bad one, Muslim or Christian, a nutcase is a nutcase..

You all are of course aware that the Pope declared removing the feeding tube from a brain dead human was a sin, and murder right?

The worst thing about organized religion is the organized part.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » May 14, 2004, 6:19 pm

Bah...if the pope had any balls, he would have gone and hung out in Baghdad before we invaded Iraq. He wasn't asking WWJD!

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 14, 2004, 6:41 pm

I fully support any and all actions the catholic church takes that will take them another step closer to international irrelevency.

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » May 14, 2004, 6:46 pm

I would think withholding or preventing someone from receiving the body and blood of christ would be a far greater sin than casting your vote for someone that supports abortion.

This Sheridon guy is a bafoon

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 14, 2004, 7:00 pm

Try not to think.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 14, 2004, 8:27 pm

If I was Catholic I'd be in favor of anything that kept the sheep donating money. It's a biz afterall.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » May 14, 2004, 8:38 pm

Wait, an act that tries to form consistancy between behavior and professed belief is lambasted as hypocritical?

It's hypocritical to forgive pedophiles and men who have broken their vows to god, yet refuse communion to people who do not believe in their interpretation of the word of god. God gave all people free will to choose, man created the church to help others come closer to god, not to push them away because their hearts are not the same as those of the church leaders.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 14, 2004, 9:15 pm

His church tells him it's ok to forgive the priests because God has forgiven.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 14, 2004, 9:24 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:Wait, an act that tries to form consistancy between behavior and professed belief is lambasted as hypocritical?

I know what you mean. It's almost like someone saying that they follow the teachings and philosophy of Christ but then support military invasions for unjust cause and taking rights away from people because they are different from you. I mean, what kind of a hypocritical asshole would do that?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 14, 2004, 9:25 pm

Adex, you're a thoughtful guy, and I'm very curious:

Would you think it acceptable if, say, the Catholic Church adopted the same position toward those who support the Iraq War or any other issue? If not, what is the reason for distinction?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 14, 2004, 9:49 pm

Umm forgiveness only comes with repenting, openly gay people or those who support them are not repenting, therefore Catholicism cannot forgive them.

They forgive only those who repent or spend enough money buying the right to sin.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » May 15, 2004, 9:08 am

Wait, how are they even planning to enforce this? Are they going to implent like a pre-communion waiver? Or will they ask you at the door?
Who did you vote for!?!?!?
..................................Bush
oh ok, come on in, try the salvation

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » May 15, 2004, 9:16 am

Lol this is great, looks like the Catholics are trying to commit suicide.
Soon to be added!!!
Did you have sex with more then one women threwout your live?
Did you ever perform felatio, or a sexual position other then missionary?
Did you ever have sex with your wife other then when she was trying to get pregnant, or when she was pregnant not using the "rythim method"?

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » May 15, 2004, 9:42 pm

This is exactly why many Americans were reluctant to elect JFK, the only Catholic US president, and doesn't exactly help John Kerry's bid to be the second. The Church just can't stay out of politics.

If only people were as concerned with the Protestant political action groups. They scare me much more than the Vatican.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » May 16, 2004, 3:24 am

I'm amused.

People bitch at the Catholics because of acts of hypocracy.
Now people bitch at the Catholics because of acts of constistancy.

Some politicians are claiming Catholic membership in an effort to score votes, yet their actions show that they're violating core Catholic beliefs.

It seems straight forward to me. If you claim to be apart of the National Organization of Women, and yet you publically work to criminalize abortion, NOW has a right to reject your membership. Same thing with politicians who claim to be Catholics yet work against them.

Don't let your disdain for the Catholics fog your reasoning here.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » May 16, 2004, 3:46 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:Some politicians are claiming Catholic membership in an effort to score votes, yet their actions show that they're violating core Catholic beliefs.

Church Doctrine is not congruent with the core beliefs of most Catholics in the US...

Karae · Post by **Karae** » May 16, 2004, 5:46 am

masteen wrote:The doctrines of the Catholic church are as closely related to the teaching of Jesus as they are to quantum string theories.

Yeah, like every stupid religious prick you think only yours is right.

Fuck off moron.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » May 16, 2004, 6:04 am

See growing up Catholic I always believed that the church was there to help me understand Jesus and his teaching and in so doing have a better understanding of god. The church wasn't there to tell me how to live my life or what to think. God gave us free will and would want me to come to him of my own free will through understanding and love.

Now when someone starts to tell me that god thinks this and god wants me to do this I get confused because I always thought god wanted me to find my own answers.

When it comes to communion I've always felt that while the symbolism of the church ceremony is helpful to trying to understand god's message, I have never believed that the act in the church is necessary. After all a ceremony can not cleanse your heart of that which stops you from communing with god, that is something that you have to do for yourself.

The only problem I have with the bishops who are threatening to forbid communion to people who vote for politicians who support ideas that the church opposes, is the idea that they make themselves the judges for those people who believe that church communion is the only way to reach god. This makes others turn away from the church and the good things that it represents and can do. Basically they start a side show instead of trying to help us understand and help us grow spiritually.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » May 16, 2004, 11:36 am

you should have been an Episcopalian Crav

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » May 16, 2004, 12:29 pm

church has always been like this ... people are just now starting to understand since they are becoming slightly more educated

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2004, 2:18 pm

Karae wrote:
masteen wrote:The doctrines of the Catholic church are as closely related to the teaching of Jesus as they are to quantum string theories.
Yeah, like every stupid religious prick you think only yours is right.

Fuck off moron.

I think he was mocking religion in this case.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2004, 2:21 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:I'm amused.

People bitch at the Catholics because of acts of hypocracy.
Now people bitch at the Catholics because of acts of constistancy.

Feel free to be amused but Catholicism is one fucked up heaping pile of shit. I'd be ashamed and embarrased to have been duped by those crooks and deceivers.

I'm not talking about religion in general.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » May 16, 2004, 8:29 pm

Adex, you didn't respond to any of the serious posts on the topic.

Should all Catholics that supported the war in Iraq also be denied communion? They all went against the Church.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » May 17, 2004, 11:00 am

My wife and I were discussing the church hypocracy in relation to the septuplets that were born recently. We find it funny how it is a sin to play god and abort a fetus but it is perfectly all right to pump yourself full of drugs and artificially conceive 6 kids. I don't know if the parents were actually catholic but they claimed religion kept them from selectively aborting any of them.

Syenye Squirrellyelf · Post by **Syenye Squirrellyelf** » May 17, 2004, 11:44 am

Most people who claim to be Catholic do not embrace the doctrine fully. They pick and choose what they want to believe in, but the Church believes that one cannot be Catholic and follow the doctrine selectively. Therefore, Kerry is not considered Catholic in the eyes of the Church and cannot receive communion. It's pretty standard that anyone who isn't Catholic isn't allowed to receive communion.

Professing belief in the Christian version of God does not mean you have to blindy accept everything told to you by a collection of "scholars" who claim to be interpreting the word of God.

Actually, for Catholicism, it does to an extent. It's not exactly blind, just most Catholics don't take out the time to research it.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » May 17, 2004, 1:41 pm

Vetiria wrote:Should all Catholics that supported the war in Iraq also be denied communion? They all went against the Church.

*shrug* I dont' know. You have to be more than a christain to qualify for Catholic communion. I don't know exactly what those qualifications are.

Heck I'm a christain, and I don't qualify for catholic communion.

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » May 17, 2004, 2:29 pm

To blindly accept Catholic Doctrine, or any church doctrine, is an exercise in stupidity. Parishoners my be considered a "flock", but not a mindless flock. A parishoner should not blindly obey every word muttered from the pulpit. Its not his duty to obey. Its his duty to find his own way. The church is there to advice and counsel. Its not there to set prerequisites and requirements. Its not there to determine if Im worthy to receive slavation through Jesus Christ. That can only be determined by god himself.

By denying communion, the church is basically usurping Jesus' teachings. He taught about turning the other cheek. About the Good Samaritan. And most importantly he taught that The Lord was a god of unconditional love.

If Jesus were walking the planet today, do you truely and honestly believe he would deny a seat at his table to a woman that went through an abortion. HELL NO! That is exactly the person he would seek out. He would welcome her and listen to her. He would accept her and embrace her.
Back in his day, he didnt turn away the whores. He broke bread with them and accepted them. Mary Magdalan didnt repent in order to receive his unconditional love and forgiveness. That unconditional love, which was already given to her, is what lead to her repenting.

By restricting communion the church is applying restrictions to that unconditional love. And by doing that the church is committing a far greater sin than punching a hole in a ballot could ever be considered.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » May 17, 2004, 2:46 pm

Kylere wrote:Umm forgiveness only comes with repenting, openly gay people or those who support them are not repenting, therefore Catholicism cannot forgive them.

They forgive only those who repent or spend enough money buying the right to sin.

Err where does the bible mention "those who support them"?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » May 17, 2004, 2:50 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:
Vetiria wrote:Should all Catholics that supported the war in Iraq also be denied communion? They all went against the Church.
*shrug* I dont' know. You have to be more than a christain to qualify for Catholic communion. I don't know exactly what those qualifications are.

Heck I'm a christain, and I don't qualify for catholic communion.

basically to receive communion, you have to be baptized in the Catholic church.

Syenye Squirrellyelf · Post by **Syenye Squirrellyelf** » May 17, 2004, 3:44 pm

Voronwë wrote:basically to receive communion, you have to be baptized in the Catholic church.

it's more than that. you need to have also received the sacraments of Reconciliation and Communion, usually done around age 8. Also, you cannot have committed mortal sin without having gone to reconciliation unless there is a grave reason and no way of going to reconciliation.

The Church isn't turning away people. The Church is always open to non-Catholics, just communion is not. Catholics have to go through certain teachings to be able to receive communion. This is all because of the belief in the True Presence, and it's relatively difficult to understand for non-Catholics, but this is why there are such restrictions. Non-Catholics are always welcome to services and can receive a blessing during communion but are not allowed to take part.

Apostate · Post by **Apostate** » May 17, 2004, 5:02 pm

That bishop's letter is much more manipulative than it seems, and that bugs me.

Americans should not receive Communion if they vote for politicians who defy church teaching by supporting abortion rights, same-sex marriage, euthanasia or stem-cell research

The problem with that is he is specifically omitting things that the Church opposes that would be supported by Republican or socially conservative politicians. For example, the Church is as strongly against the death penalty as any of those listed, and adamantly against the War in Iraq. But those aren't mentioned because if they were, most likely there wouldn't be -any- politicans that Catholics could vote for without being in violation of Church doctrine... which is largely why the Pope refers to America as a "society of death".

Also noticed he didn't touch contraception at all either, which is probably the area the modern Church is criticised the most heavily, but still defends... and is a sore spot with the Church that it is so socially acceptable in modern countries.

So ultimately, this Bishop and the ones that agree with him are just pushing very partisan politics, knowingly supporting Republican politicians that don't really fall in line with Church teachings, but support a few of their stances that they personally feel are more important. That sort of inconsistency is itself incompatible with Church teachings.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » May 17, 2004, 5:02 pm

communion has always been a huge deal in the catholic church. i was baptized catholic, but i never received first communion because my family never consistantly went to church and i didn't do all that crap syenye mentioned either. whenever my parents and/or grandparents dragged me to church my dad and i just didn't go up when it was communion time.

it's the same thing the mormons do before admitting their members to the temple. you have to be supermormon to get past the lobby.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » May 17, 2004, 7:52 pm

You know Apostate that's a hell of a response. You convinced me.

BTW if you check the bible the first communion was done by Jesus.

During that time he gave bread and wine to Judas, and then after Jesus was finshed, he told Judas go on and get the betrayal thing done.

If you look to Jesus as a model, communion should be offered to christains who are wide off course as well as the devout.

There's a further lesson to be gained from this but it's off topic.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 17, 2004, 11:27 pm

Toshira wrote:
Kylere wrote:Umm forgiveness only comes with repenting, openly gay people or those who support them are not repenting, therefore Catholicism cannot forgive them.

They forgive only those who repent or spend enough money buying the right to sin.
Err where does the bible mention "those who support them"?

If you can get the pope to tell you Toshy, go for it. I do not support it myself. Perhaps if you had read to the next line before you posted you would have understood I was not in favor of it.

Silly wiz, nuke nuke nuke without thinking and now you got me aggro on your beanpole ass.

VeeshanVault

Ahhhh the Church

Ahhhh the Church

Annoyingly partisan