iraq hostage ...

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » May 12, 2004, 3:56 pm

kyoukan wrote:yes but you have to understand that the prison guards are only raping and killing muslims, not actual real people. but when an american is killed that is something totally different. let's all fucking hold hands and sing songs about this injustice while we completely ignore the tens of thousands of iraqi civilians that have died in the last year.

I realize you're not only addressing me, but I am not ignoring the Iraqi civilians who have been killed. Your position is weak, however. You can keep shifting incidents, pointing to different U.S. atrocities which somehow perhaps "justify" this killing - but the simple fact remains: this was a terrible thing to do to another human being.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 12, 2004, 4:06 pm

I don't think anybody is denying that it was a horrible thing. Hell I sure wont deny that. But it does disgust me a bit to see how some people write off everything that happens to Iraqis yet when one incident involves an American they scream bloody murder. That is fairly hypocritical.

Avatarofmal · Post by **Avatarofmal** » May 12, 2004, 4:12 pm

For the people who condemn America for their actions regarding Iraq and other foreign policy decisions of late... what suggestions do you have to make things right? I know you're in no position to actually do anything about it, but if you could sent a memo to the Prez right now knowing that your suggestions/orders would come to pass, what would you have us do?

I'm by no means an expert on the whole Middle East conflict but as I understand it the majority of that region's hatred for America comes from:

1) Our support of Israel
2) Our meddling in their politics and culture (war or otherwise)
3) The influence western culture has brought to that part of the world

Should we pull all our support out of Israel? Stop buying Oil from the ME? Stop providing support to other countries in the region? Try to stop our culture from affecting them (stop allowing immigration from that part of the world, stop exports of goods, etc)?

What about UN actions that influence that part of the world that the fundamentalists perceive negatively? Should we pull all our resources and troops from those endeavours?

I'm afraid that America is stuck in a damned if you do, damned if you don't position. If we pull ourselves back from the world stage then the rest of the world will call us an isolationist, greedy country for not helping mankind to make the rest of the world a better place. Do we withdraw and only take international action when it's done through the UN?

Would any of this even be enough in the long run to assuage our enemies wrath? Would they just find another reason to hate us and our allies?

Thoughts? Is there any solution to this mess? If anyone has ideas I'd love to hear them.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 12, 2004, 4:22 pm

masteen wrote:So you're saying that our military's activities, taken as a whole, are comparable to these guys sawing a contractor's head off?

no, your military is worse. at least these guys have only killed one person so far.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 4:25 pm

kyoukan wrote:
masteen wrote:So you're saying that our military's activities, taken as a whole, are comparable to these guys sawing a contractor's head off?
no, your military is worse. at least these guys have only killed one person so far.

How many were killed at the WTC?

Seeing that these guys are backed by Al-queda and you are lumping a few bad soldiers into the whole US armed forces. they are the same

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » May 12, 2004, 4:28 pm

masteen wrote:
Lynks wrote:Get off your high horses. What the Iraqi's did to him was wrong, but so is what the American soldiers are doing right now.
So you're saying that our military's activities, taken as a whole, are comparable to these guys sawing a contractor's head off? Are you fucking serious?

No it isn't comparable. US military activities taken as a whole are much worse than the act those monsters video taped. Your government has fucking killed 10,000 civilians, 10,000 people with family, friends, children. No matter how many schools opened or water lines fixed it doesn't mean shit compared to killing 10,000 people.

Why did these 10,000 people die? WMD remember? The whole WMD bullshit so many of you here fell for hook line and sinker without any real proof. Now that there are no WMD why did these 10,000 people die? For democracy of course. Was possibly forcing democracy on Iraq was worth killing 10,000 people?

If you can so easily justify killing 10,000 people then the justification needed for a single death must be minuscule.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 12, 2004, 4:29 pm

Let me point out one thing that ALL of you have missed:

USA: Went in for reasons now determined to be wrong, but is still trying to do its best to make things better for the people of Iraq than they were. We did remove one of the most brutal goverments on the planet at a minimum. But all in all 90plus % of our troops there want nothing but to help some people, kill the bad guys and come home alive. Yes 10% of them are probably fucking scumbags who are getting off on a chance to lord it over someone because in the backwoods of West Virigina the most power they every had was being next at the outhouse.

TERRORISTS: Grabbed some nutty antenna repair dude who had no reason to be in that country whatsoever and cut off his head

Both sides are doing fucked up shit, but the terrorists are doing it with no desire to help anyone.

Oh yeah before anyone makes him a martyr he was a caucasian, american and a jewish dude alone in a muslim country that is full of people who hate caucasions, americans, and jews. Which to me, and in all due respect for his death, makes him a candidate for the Darwin awards. He choose to enter a third world country under foreign occupation willingly, he wanted to MAKE MONEY, he died. Risk/Reward.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 12, 2004, 4:32 pm

Kylere wrote:Both sides are doing fucked up shit, but the terrorists are doing it with no desire to help anyone.

I can't really speak for them but it looks to me as if they are trying to help their country by sending a message to the US.

Janx · Post by **Janx** » May 12, 2004, 4:39 pm

Fingers are crossed that we head to Canada after Iraq.

Hopefully the canadians wont strap bombs to their kids and send them to hug our soldiers like the Iraqis do..

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 12, 2004, 4:43 pm

They aren't trying to help shit. They're just trying to get their 80 virgins in the afterlife or whatever the fundie clerics promise awaits them. Vary noble.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 4:46 pm

Lynks wrote:
Kylere wrote:Both sides are doing fucked up shit, but the terrorists are doing it with no desire to help anyone.
I can't really speak for them but it looks to me as if they are trying to help their country by sending a message to the US.

Yea they were really brave behind the pillow cases. Gee they remind me of the KKK fucking pussys.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 12, 2004, 4:48 pm

Lynks wrote:
Kylere wrote:Both sides are doing fucked up shit, but the terrorists are doing it with no desire to help anyone.
I can't really speak for them but it looks to me as if they are trying to help their country by sending a message to the US.

Actually under all the rhetoric you missed something Lynks, they are part of Al Quaida ( or however you want to anglocize the name this week) and have been at war with the US long before we entered Iraq the FIRST time. Therefore your entire point, facetious, and slanderous as it was, lacked any value whatsoever. This was not about their country, this was about them being admitted, and proclaimed followers of Osama Bin Laden.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 12, 2004, 4:49 pm

In a way you can argue that what the American soldiers have done was worse. Why? Because you are supposed to be the saviours, those who come to liberate the Iraqis from torture and abuse. Even when a small minority of US soldiers behave this way you most likely blow what goodwill and chance of fixing things you have built up.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 12, 2004, 4:55 pm

Kelshara wrote:In a way you can argue that what the American soldiers have done was worse. Why? Because you are supposed to be the saviours, those who come to liberate the Iraqis from torture and abuse. Even when a small minority of US soldiers behave this way you most likely blow what goodwill and chance of fixing things you have built up.

Kelshara if you follow this as logical, then it would make sense for us to start executing every single person on the planet who believes in Islam. If you are going to argue that the actions of a few set the standard for all, then you have to be fair and look at BOTH sides, not just the side you feel makes your point more effectively.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 12, 2004, 5:05 pm

Not really, remember it is not ME you have to win over. It is the Iraqi people, a people that has been abused and tortured and who in general are distrustful of the west in general and the US in particular. Don't even try to tell me that the few soldiers involved in this hasn't lowered the chances of success in Iraq. And that is not an argument made only by me, it is something I've read several middle eastern experts say lately as well.

Personally, I find the acts of both the American soldiers and the Iraqis disgusting. However, in a way when I know the background of the people I can understand the Iraqis doing it more than I can understand the Americans. No, I am NOT saying it is ok for them to do it, but I can see WHY they did it. I honestly can't see why the Americans did it..

miir · Post by **miir** » May 12, 2004, 5:11 pm

Ironic that one of the original motives to invade Iraq was the 'war on terrorism'... Iraq has become a haven and a fertile recruiting ground for potential terrorists.

Back to the topic....

I guess none of you saw the footage of the American Blackhawk gunning down 2 non-hostile, seemingly unarmed Iraqi civilans. They pumped a few leisurely busts from thier chopper's fixed guns(I'd estimate about 100 bullets per civilian) into each one. It was surreal, like watching a video game. The pilot's voices were completely calm... it was almost like they were shooting inanimate targets.

Or maybe you didn't read the reports about the US soldier who was demoted down to private and discharged for emptying a clip into a prisoner who tried to throw a rock at him.

While the murder of this American civilian was a heinous, cowardly act,... these sort of sickening actions are not the exclusive domain of terrorists. And since these radical groups have no real way of striking back against the soldiers who are commiting these acts, they strike back the only way they can... by targeting civilians.

It's not so difficult to understand their mindset and motivations of these terrorists.

Fingers are crossed that we head to Canada after Iraq.

Hopefully the canadians wont strap bombs to their kids and send them to hug our soldiers like the Iraqis do..

Hehe, sup Janx...
Nah, we'll just strap a Two-Four of Molson's to our kids to get all you americans drunk and then have them steal your women while you're all passed out.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 12, 2004, 5:21 pm

Janx wrote:Fingers are crossed that we head to Canada after Iraq.

why? so you can murder more civilians? and I'm the horrible person?

Janx · Post by **Janx** » May 12, 2004, 5:35 pm

Differnece is the iraq's are intentionally targeting civilians. US may be causing civilian lives but thats gonna be hard to stop especially considering the Iraqis are using their countrymen as human shields.

How many times has a canadian army used a church for a military stronghold? Stored ammunition in educational buildings?

Wait..canada has an army right?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 12, 2004, 5:38 pm

I think that if your brother or your daughter or your son was blown up by a stray bomb from another country's warplane, you wouldn't give a whole lot of shit on whether or not it was an accident. Neither would the dead person.

Janx · Post by **Janx** » May 12, 2004, 5:55 pm

True. I was watching discovery times the other night and it had a show about the war on it. There was a few reporters/tv crews traveling with a kurdish force (us allies) and a US plane launched a rocket into them, mistaking them for some iraqi forces about 8miles from their position Had it all on film, camera dude had blood running down his face, bodys everywhere.
It also had americans that caused the death of civilians (mainly to the civilians not listening to US troops or heeding warning shots), and to say they were remorseless wouldn't be fair. The look of anguish on thier faces when they realized the people werent terrorists..well..it will stay with them forever.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 12, 2004, 6:08 pm

Exactly. Al-Qaeda apparently offered to release Berg in exchange for hostages. We refused. We sacrificed an American life in order to protect American military interests. This is exactly the operating theory behind human shields, hiding in mosques, and so on.

It is essential that there is accountability on all sides. It is unlikely that anyone with any jurisdiction over Al-Zarqawi and the others pictured on the tape are going to do shit. As such, our military is going to try to find them and either kill or arrest them. Wonderful. I'll celebrate when it happens.

On the same token, accountability is demanded of us. As Kylere and others have advocated, those individuals who have committed abuses in Abu Ghraib should be brought to justice. Unfortunately, it seems likely that "brought to justice" is often going to mean "demoted and discharged." However, this alone is not enough. Upward accountability is demanded. As of yet, we do not know (or have not publicized) who Nick Berg's killers are. One of them may have been Al-Zarqawi. It's also possible that Al-Zarqawi was not present at the killing, but I bet that everyone here would still hold him at least partially responsible in such a case. In the same way, we must hold responsible the leaders who caused or ordered abuses, and those who could have acted but did not. If they are not held responsible, Al-Qaida and related organizations will be able to execute attacks against American personnel with the exact same moral authority that we use to authorize our military actions.

Canoe · Post by **Canoe** » May 12, 2004, 6:10 pm

I can't believe this is even being debated.

Yes what happened with the "degradation" (no that didn't say "decapitation") of iraqi people in the prisons was wrong, and we are in process of fixing that situation.

To compare that to what was done to Nick Berg is utterly frustrating and honestly makes me sick to my stomach that there are people out there who truly thing these things are even comparable.

If you bring up deaths in the bombings - as a recent poster said, if you don't want civi's to die, don't hide behind them.

I can't even begin to tell you how depressed this makes me feel that ANYONE in their right minds would consider the decapitation of a civilian, then taped and broadcasted is justified in any way.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 12, 2004, 6:11 pm

Explain to me how the decapitation of a civilian is different than killing a civilian by stomping on his neck.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 12, 2004, 6:13 pm

Well I'm not saying that US military are remorseless killers who blow up civilians for fun. My point is, when you, as a country, chose to attack another country, you accepted the responsibility of inevitable civilian casualties. Being able to morally justify the deaths of civilans as compeltely not your fault because you didn't intentially mean to kill them is repugnant in my opinion. It is even worse when you act all outraged at the cruel slaughter of one of your own countrymen while writing off the death of 10,000 people as mere collateral damage.

This is even worse by the fact that these people died from a military invasion that was brought about by the lies and deceit and the current administration. They essentially died for the personal gain of a select number of people who are profitting immensely at the expense of the Iraqi people and US tax payers. But I digress.

Unless you honestly thought that every single Iraqi was going to welcome you with open arms as the great liberators of the evil regime of Saddam Hussein (and unfortunately that is how your government presented the war to you after they failed to make their case with previous excuses), and unless you think that every bomb dropped was going to pinpoint hit military targets only and every shot fired was going to only kill evil baathist oppressors then you have no right to complain when someone else dies.

War is ugly and stupid. People die in it. Sometimes they die in battles and sometimes they are executed. The death of one American civilian who should not have been there to begin with does not begin to justify the havok you have wreaked on that country and on people's lives. And if you think it does, then I really don't have a whole lot more to say to you.

A large portion of the population of Iraq loved Saddam Hussein and thought he was a great leader. Did you honestly think every single person in the country hated him and wanted him out of power? Do you really think the majority of the population wanted to be invaded by the united states and have US tanks and armored vehicles and US soldiers on every street corner setting up check points all over and establishing curfews? Is that was liberation is to you?

You also have to understand that life is a lot cheaper in the middle east than it is here. For them it is culturally acceptable to pay for the type of humiliations you're putting Iraqi prisoners through with death. I'm not apologizing for it or saying it's right; that's just the reality.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 12, 2004, 6:18 pm

Canoe I'd love to reply to your post intelligently but.. wow.. that is all I can say.. wow.. I pity your parents.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » May 12, 2004, 6:20 pm

Kylere wrote:Let me point out one thing that ALL of you have missed:

USA: Went in for reasons now determined to be wrong, but is still trying to do its best to make things better for the people of Iraq than they were. We did remove one of the most brutal goverments on the planet at a minimum. But all in all 90plus % of our troops there want nothing but to help some people, kill the bad guys and come home alive. Yes 10% of them are probably fucking scumbags who are getting off on a chance to lord it over someone because in the backwoods of West Virigina the most power they every had was being next at the outhouse.

TERRORISTS: Grabbed some nutty antenna repair dude who had no reason to be in that country whatsoever and cut off his head

Both sides are doing fucked up shit, but the terrorists are doing it with no desire to help anyone.

Oh yeah before anyone makes him a martyr he was a caucasian, american and a jewish dude alone in a muslim country that is full of people who hate caucasions, americans, and jews. Which to me, and in all due respect for his death, makes him a candidate for the Darwin awards. He choose to enter a third world country under foreign occupation willingly, he wanted to MAKE MONEY, he died. Risk/Reward.

..yet this administration cannot admit they made a mistake, this is one of the main reasons they have created such an awful reputation for us. One of my major problems with Bush is that he is too much of a fucking coward to admit when he has made a mistake. He and his administration of war mongering hypocrite pussies who didnt have the balls to go out and fight for the country when they were called apon go out and dont have the charicter to admit there faults. Although people say kerry goes back and fourth on issues, at least he is strong enough to admit his mistakes. He said he voted for iraq, but now realizes it was a major fuck up and apoligizes for doing so. I would much rather have someone in the office with an open mind and a strong charicter then a one sided spoiled little fucking coward.

Its regodamndiculous that anyone here is trying to defend these terrorist, as is it that people here are trying to defend our war criminals.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 12, 2004, 6:22 pm

Canoe wrote:I can't even begin to tell you how depressed this makes me feel that ANYONE in their right minds would consider the decapitation of a civilian, then taped and broadcasted is justified in any way.

Yeah so much worse than say, the pentagon dragging out Uday and Qusay's corpses and parading them around like trophies for the media after they were killed.

Arilain · Post by **Arilain** » May 12, 2004, 6:28 pm

You know....if this man that had his head sawed off had been in the military I would have been upset but understanding. People die in wars. However this man was a civilian and that goes against Islam teachings and evrything else that is humane in the world. Interesting note though...Chechen rebels in Russian do the same things.

The prison abuse thing is not enough to justify murder. Also I believe that the MP's that did this should face some seroius jail time. It was unexcusable and goes against everything the military teaches you.

One interesting thought...Why don't we catch the fuckers that decapitated the civilian and set them up in a sealed room with the MP's that are now notorius. Set up a Video tape and broadcast it as a reality TV series. I am sure the networks would jump on it. After all the ratings on that would be higher than when they showed the now famous photos.

Arilain

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » May 12, 2004, 6:29 pm

Welcome to war. America invited itself, I hope you enjoy your stay. Just realize every graphic death you see of an American, there are thousands and thousands of innocent deaths that never get to see the lens or be broadcast to an outraged society.

Action, reaction. It's as simple as that. We fuck with thier shit, they will fuck with ours. Seeing the reaction this is causing, I forsee a lot more beheadings for any Americans unlucky enough to be captured in the following months. Not sure what people expected, but I don't think tickle fights are going to be on an angry Iraqi's agenda.

They hate us so they got midevil on our asses.

Oddly enough, a guy got his head cut off (and hands/feet too) in Kalamazoo, MI about 6 months ago. Barely made the local news. Just thought that was intersting.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 12, 2004, 6:30 pm

kyoukan wrote:Well I'm not saying that US military are remorseless killers who blow up civilians for fun. My point is, when you, as a country, chose to attack another country, you accepted the responsibility of inevitable civilian casualties. Being able to morally justify the deaths of civilans as compeltely not your fault because you didn't intentially mean to kill them is repugnant in my opinion. It is even worse when you act all outraged at the cruel slaughter of one of your own countrymen while writing off the death of 10,000 people as mere collateral damage.

The fact that the insurgents love to use schools, churches, ect. as their bases also has something to do w/ the amount of collateral damage we do. While I'll not say we're blameless for the civis that get popped when we drop a bunker buster on a mosque, but how else are we going to get an entrenched force out of them? Promise them more virgins?

kyoukan wrote:War is ugly and stupid. People die in it. Sometimes they die in battles and sometimes they are executed. The death of one American civilian who should not have been there to begin with does not begin to justify the havok you have wreaked on that country and on people's lives. And if you think it does, then I really don't have a whole lot more to say to you.

You also have to understand that life is a lot cheaper in the middle east than it is here. For them it is culturally acceptable to pay for the type of humiliations you're putting Iraqi prisoners through with death. I'm not apologizing for it or saying it's right; that's just the reality.

Unfortunately, every time something like this gets broadcast, it plays right into the hands of every small-minded anti-Muslim bigot trying to paint them all as vicious fanatics. It's one thing to point to a burnt out building and say that 100 children died there, it's another thing to see a man getting his head sawed off while he's still alive.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 12, 2004, 6:30 pm

I feel this conversation is not complete without something from Midnyte, so I took something he said earlier that basically applies to this. Note, this is his opinion on things!

It's a fucking war. Put aside your bleeding hearts

OMG!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 6:40 pm

Sueven wrote:Explain to me how the decapitation of a civilian is different than killing a civilian by stomping on his neck.

Civilian or Terrorist?

miir · Post by **miir** » May 12, 2004, 6:43 pm

Sueven wrote:Explain to me how the decapitation of a civilian is different than killing a civilian by stomping on his neck.

Or emptying a clip into someone who looks like they might throw a rock at you?
Or pumping 100 rounds into a civilian from your Blackhawk?

Janx · Post by **Janx** » May 12, 2004, 6:45 pm

Know what pisses me off the most about the video. He didnt even know it was comming. At least let someone know they're bout to get their head ripped off so they can tell their family goodbye.

I must have missed the video the pentagon released of a group of americans throwing Usay and Qusay to the ground and cutting their unsuspecting heads off. Not sure how two war criminals could be compared to some dude who lived in NY, and more then likely, never been involved in someone elses death.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 12, 2004, 6:49 pm

Kyoukan was comparing the symbolism of it.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 12, 2004, 6:51 pm

Well I'm pretty sure that the examples Miir cited were civilians, so, civilian.

And even in the example I cited, we have to combine two facts:
1. We don't know if he was a civilian or an insurgent
2. Our system of justice and ethics prescribes "innocent until proven guilty"

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 6:59 pm

Sueven wrote:Well I'm pretty sure that the examples Miir cited were civilians, so, civilian.

And even in the example I cited, we have to combine two facts:
1. We don't know if he was a civilian or an insurgent
2. Our system of justice and ethics prescribes "innocent until proven guilty"

Your assumming then?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 12, 2004, 7:03 pm

Of course I'm fucking assuming. Get used to it. ALL OF POLITICS IS BUILT ON ASSUMPTIONS. The world is far too complex a place for us to have solid knowledge of everything.

And of course: Assuming that we don't know now, we will never know whether or not he was a terrorist, because he's fucking dead. It's not easy to interrogate dead men.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 7:08 pm

Sueven wrote:Of course I'm fucking assuming. Get used to it. ALL OF POLITICS IS BUILT ON ASSUMPTIONS. The world is far too complex a place for us to have solid knowledge of everything.

And of course: Assuming that we don't know now, we will never know whether or not he was a terrorist, because he's fucking dead. It's not easy to interrogate dead men.

So im assuming he is a dead terrorist!!! Next!!!!

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » May 12, 2004, 7:11 pm

Janx wrote:Know what pisses me off the most about the video. He didnt even know it was comming. At least let someone know they're bout to get their head ripped off so they can tell their family goodbye.

I must have missed the video the pentagon released of a group of americans throwing Usay and Qusay to the ground and cutting their unsuspecting heads off. Not sure how two war criminals could be compared to some dude who lived in NY, and more then likely, never been involved in someone elses death.

I dont know about you but i would prefer to not see my death comming. To me, there is no worse way to die then to know the exact hour and minute before your time is up, having the clock slowly tick down, knowing your life is about to end. Thats why being executed, specially having to go threw an american death penalty would be pure horror for me.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » May 12, 2004, 7:12 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Sueven wrote:Of course I'm fucking assuming. Get used to it. ALL OF POLITICS IS BUILT ON ASSUMPTIONS. The world is far too complex a place for us to have solid knowledge of everything.

And of course: Assuming that we don't know now, we will never know whether or not he was a terrorist, because he's fucking dead. It's not easy to interrogate dead men.
So im assuming he is a dead terrorist!!! Next!!!!

Which has as much validity as assuming that Berg was CIA...neither is apparently true however...

Janx · Post by **Janx** » May 12, 2004, 7:18 pm

I'd want to know it was comming so I could tell them not to slowly cut my head off. Id much prefer a bullet.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 12, 2004, 7:24 pm

I'm assuming Cartalas is a threat to national security and should be shot on sight.

Do you ever make an actual argument Cart?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 7:44 pm

[quote="Kelshara"]I'm assuming Cartalas is a threat to national security and should be shot on sight.

Do you ever make an actual argument Cart?[/quote]

Im assumming you like cock

Suck my Dick

Lynxe · Post by **Lynxe** » May 12, 2004, 7:46 pm

[quote="Canoe"]Yes what happened with the "degradation" (no that didn't say "decapitation") of iraqi people in the prisons was wrong, and we are in process of fixing that situation.[/quote]
A slap on the wrist and loss of job (discharge) is NOT "fixing the situation". Would you think that was suitable punishment for someone who raped, sodomized, build naked human pyramids, attached wires to the genitals of and in some cases killed American's and posted pictures of it on the internet to their FRIENDS? How about if they did it to members of your family? You'd be screaming for harsh legal sentences and possibly death. These “American’s” deserve no less.

[quote="Canoe"]I can't even begin to tell you how depressed this makes me feel that ANYONE in their right minds would consider the decapitation of a civilian, then taped and broadcasted is justified in any way.[/quote]
I wouldn't justify it at all. This type of violence from either side is wrong and the people committing those acts should be punished accordingly. The entire country should NOT.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » May 12, 2004, 7:53 pm

[quote="Sueven"]Exactly. Al-Qaeda apparently offered to release Berg in exchange for hostages. We refused. We sacrificed an American life in order to protect American military interests. This is exactly the operating theory behind human shields, hiding in mosques, and so on.[/quote]

You can't possibly be advocating giving concessions to terrorists and/or extremists. If we even began doing this we'd have a different person or group of people on a video every other day with these assholes demanding the release of any person in their group who gets caught, and killing civilians for every terrorist we killed while attempting to defend outselves from their suicide bombers or dirty bombs.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 12, 2004, 7:58 pm

Correct, I never advocated any such thing. Thank you for your accurate observation.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » May 12, 2004, 8:07 pm

http://www.coxandforkum.com/

For what it's worth, I do agree with the author of that editorial site that the priorities of the media are way off.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » May 12, 2004, 8:10 pm

[quote="Pahreyia"]You can't possibly be advocating giving concessions to terrorists and/or extremists. If we even began doing this we'd have a different person or group of people on a video every other day with these assholes demanding the release of any person in their group who gets caught, and killing civilians for every terrorist we killed while attempting to defend outselves from their suicide bombers or dirty bombs.[/quote]

You mean like the US military is doing with al Sadr?

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » May 12, 2004, 8:21 pm

[quote="Pahreyia"]http://www.coxandforkum.com/

For what it's worth, I do agree with the author of that editorial site that the priorities of the media are way off.[/quote]

I agree the media is overly influenced by what sells commercial time and the need to fill 24 hours a day with sensationalism...

I don't see any imbalance particularly in their coverage of the events in Abu Gharib versus the killing of Berg...Both seem to have been treated about the same as far as I can tell...And both are equally horrific...