iraq hostage ...

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » May 12, 2004, 12:57 am

im suprized none posted about this or maybe i missed the post

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » May 12, 2004, 1:26 am

You talking about this?

Warning NWS and very very graphic.
http://www.strangeland.com/home

One of the most horrible acts I have ever seen.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » May 12, 2004, 5:48 am

There's not too much to say about it, really. The perpatrators have succumbed to a terrible part of human nature that exists within all of us. Worse still, they believe their own responsibility is abdigated by proclaiming the action is done for the glory of God.

Islam desperatly needs a modern-day Badshah Khan to emerge.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 12, 2004, 6:05 am

oh yeah that is a lot worse than dropping a sattelite guided bomb onto a mosque full of people.

if you are shocked and outraged by a beheading then no wonder something is so wrong with your country. you have absolutely no sense of reality.

your country is levelling entire blocks of people's houses and buildings that date back from before north america was even discovered in fallujah and baghdad, with gunships and tactical bombers. thousands of civilian casualties, and you're horrified at one retard (who, btw, had no fucking business being in Iraq to begin with) losing his head priviledges. boo fucking hoo. go live in somewhere that is being occupied by a hostile and aggresive foreign nation bent on exploiting your country's national resources for personal profit and then come back and tell me how outraged you are some dumb cunt getting his noodle hacked off. you probably wouldn't even look twice at it because you are too busy scrubbing the stain off the wall that you used call your little brother before PFC Clem Yokel mistook his blow dryer for an RPG and called for a squad of A-10's to obliterate everything within 100 square yards.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 9:34 am

kyoukan wrote:oh yeah that is a lot worse than dropping a sattelite guided bomb onto a mosque full of people.

if you are shocked and outraged by a beheading then no wonder something is so wrong with your country. you have absolutely no sense of reality.

your country is levelling entire blocks of people's houses and buildings that date back from before north america was even discovered in fallujah and baghdad, with gunships and tactical bombers. thousands of civilian casualties, and you're horrified at one retard (who, btw, had no fucking business being in Iraq to begin with) losing his head priviledges. boo fucking hoo. go live in somewhere that is being occupied by a hostile and aggresive foreign nation bent on exploiting your country's national resources for personal profit and then come back and tell me how outraged you are some dumb cunt getting his noodle hacked off. you probably wouldn't even look twice at it because you are too busy scrubbing the stain off the wall that you used call your little brother before PFC Clem Yokel mistook his blow dryer for an RPG and called for a squad of A-10's to obliterate everything within 100 square yards.

fuck you Kyoukan!!!

Here is the other side of the story

"This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard:

As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back home. And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you. This is the list of things that has happened in Iraq recently:

(Please share it with your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing.)

* Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur. * The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war. * Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.

Don't believe for one second that these people do not want us there. I have met many, many people from Iraq that want us there, and in a bad way. They say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone, anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa. This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, e-mail this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening.

Ray Reynolds, SFC
Iowa Army National Guard
234th Signal Battalion"

::: This is an e-mail that has been forwarded around the Internet, Snopes.com authenticates the writer and offers links to another Web sites that nitpicks some of the facts of the message."

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » May 12, 2004, 9:44 am

And a medic would have access to this info how?...

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 9:49 am

Arborealus wrote:And a medic would have access to this info how?...

Umm maybe he was involved in the rebuilding or maybe he was told it happened all Im trying to point out there are 2 sides to a story. Here is another

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/rydbom.asp

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 12, 2004, 9:52 am

I personally think we should leave Iraq, even if only 10% of the population hates us, let them come up with whatever government they like, let them pick and level of oppression they desire, let them kill each other rather than Americans.

We needed to remove Saddam Hussein from power, we were morally obligated to do so since we had helped place him in power. Now we are done.

Of course prior to leaving we need to put some prison guards in a square in the center of town, and execute them, and we need to broadcast every tape/picture/document we have found of the former Iraqi goverment doing things wrong.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 12, 2004, 9:59 am

Here we go:

This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard

Sgt. Reynolds is not a medic. He does communications work. In fact, the 234th Signal Battalion's "mission is to provide wide area communications support in a theater of operations

Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations

According to USAID/UNICEF/WHO, there are over 4 million children in Iraq. How is immunizing 10% sopmething to brag about?
Here's something a little more factual:

USAID has vaccinated three million Iraqi children under the age of five, administered tetanus vaccine to more than 700,000 pregnant women, and by April 30, 2004 the USAID mission will have provided updated vaccinations to 90 percent of pregnant women and children under five years of age

The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

Iraq exports less than 2 million barrels of oil per day... roughy 60 million barrles per month.

Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.

Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities operate at about 65 percent of the pre-war level of three billion liters a day.

The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.

Iraq power generation peaked at approximately 92% of "the pre-conflict generating level.

100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war

Health Minister Khudair Fadhil Abbas said about 90 percent of the hospitals and clinics have been brought back to the same poor conditions as before the war but that the others will take more time to reach even that low level

Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place

In June, 2003, US authorities put a halt to local elections.

I could go on and on and find credible information sources to discount every single one of his claims, but I think you get the gist of it.

C'mon Cartalas, unless you're trying to make yourself look like an idiot, don't post horseshit like this.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 12, 2004, 10:09 am

all Im trying to point out there are 2 sides to a story

One soldier's right-wing google-ized observations of conditions in Iraq do not count for a credible side of any story.

We needed to remove Saddam Hussein from power, we were morally obligated to do so since we had helped place him in power. Now we are done

Not quite.
Saddam came into power and remained in power with little help from the US. Your government did supply him with funding and training during the conflict with Iran. It is quite possible Iran could have overthrown Saddam, so theoretically, the US may be partially reponsible in helping Saddam remain in power during the 80s.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » May 12, 2004, 10:22 am

Cartalas wrote:
Arborealus wrote:And a medic would have access to this info how?...
Umm maybe he was involved in the rebuilding or maybe he was told it happened all Im trying to point out there are 2 sides to a story. Here is another

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/rydbom.asp

And maybe the information fairy told him...my point is this source of information has no more credibility than the average citizen...This guy is not in a position to have uniquely accurate information regarding these statistics...

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 10:40 am

This is a letter from Ray Reynolds, a medic in the Iowa Army National Guard[/i

Sgt. Reynolds is not a medic. He does communications work. In fact, the 234th Signal Battalion's "mission is to provide wide area communications support in a theater of operations

Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations

Capt.Confused Said
”According to USAID/UNICEF/WHO, there are over 4 million children in Iraq. How is immunizing 10% sopmething to brag about?
Here's something a little more factual: “
Quote:
USAID has vaccinated three million Iraqi children under the age of five, administered tetanus vaccine to more than 700,000 pregnant women, and by April 30, 2004 the USAID mission will have provided updated vaccinations to 90 percent of pregnant women and children under five years of age

Here is what he failed to look up on “http://www.usaid.gov/press/factsheets/2 ... 30729.html”
Program successes to date include:
· Provided 22.3 million doses of measles, tuberculosis, hepatitis B, diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, and polio vaccines, enough to treat 4.2 million children and 700,000 pregnant women;
· Reestablished routine immunizations for children, conducted a social mobilization campaign via television and printed material to inform communities about the restarting of routine immunization and conducted two National Immunization Days (June 22 and July 22);
· Established a surveillance system to monitor for any cholera outbreaks;
· Prepared and distributed public service announcements about hand washing, diarrheal disease and breastfeeding;
· Awarded a grant to the Nurses and Doctors Professional Care Organization (an Iraqi NGO) to assist in start-up sponsorship of the Iraqi Nurses' Association (INA) National Conference (July 15-16), purchase of nurses' uniforms and equipment for Yarmouk Hospital (Baghdad), and support to the INA;
· Conducted needs assessment of 168 hospitals and referral centers and 82 primary health care centers;
· Rehabilitated ten delivery rooms in hospitals and primary health care centers serving 30,000 in Basrah;
· Provided essential drugs and medical supplies, in conjunction with Save the Children, to two obstetric, gynecological, and pediatric hospitals in Mosul; and
· Restored four looted health clinics in Kirkuk and returned them to operating status.

The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

Iraq exports less than 2 million barrels of oil per day... roughy 60 million barrles per month.

Ill give you this one I have no idea where this # came from

Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.

Captain Dumbass Said:
”Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities operate at about 65 percent of the pre-war level of three billion liters a day.”

The Truth: Woot We found 37 hidden Water treatment plants!!!!!

Recent UNICEF and CARE water and sanitation monitoring program in 14 governorates in Central and Southern Iraq found that out of 177 water treatment plants, 19% were classified as good, 55% acceptable, and 26% poor. Many of the water and sewage treatment plants were in poor states of operation prior to hostilities. In the Northern governorates, in general, potable water supply and sanitation systems are operating at greater capacity than in the central and southern areas of the country.
Issues
1. Repairs on main water network are underway, but are often constrained by lack of security.
2. Many of the water and sewage treatment plants are dependent on electricity for their normal operations. Some back-up generators exist but many of these systems are plagued by the lack of spare parts and normal maintenance, vandalism, and lack of fuel.
3. Generally there is a lack of trained and available manpower to operate the treatment plants on a regular basis, etc.
4. Solid waste collection and disposal is hampered by a lack of a trucking fleet and excavators.
5. Water quality and the treatment of sewage remain primary concerns for the long term rehabilitation efforts.
Successes
1. USAID grantee UNICEF has established a water and sanitation coordinating working group that has been attended by USAID officials, other United Nations groups, NGOs, and Bechtel.
2. Strengthening evaluations are being undertaken in Basrah at several of the water treatment plants to determine the present quality of the drinking water.
3. With USAID funding, CARE has undertaken emergency water rehabilitation in Qaim and Ar Rutbah in the Al Anbar governorate, benefiting 80,000 persons.
4. With USAID funding, Save the Children has provided two submersible pumps to facilitate maintenance of main pumps at the Wafal Qaed water treatment and pumping station in collaboration with UNICEF. Approximately 500,000 persons will benefit from these activities. Save the Children is also reviewing 78 primary health care facilities in the Al Basrah governorate and will supply some of these centers with piped water and sanitation facilities.
5. Bechtel has prepared preliminary estimates of repairing water treatment plants in eastern Baghdad that would increase treated water by 45%.
6. Bechtel is developing rehabilitation plans for 8 potable water treatment facilities in the Basrah region and rehabilitating 6 waste water treatment plants in south central Iraq.
7. Through USAID funding, UNICEF has purchased chlorine gas, bleaching powder, chlorinators, water purification tablets, and aluminum sulphate.
8. Numerous hospital and public health clinic potable water and sanitation systems have been repaired by the NGO community through USAID funding.
9. Millions of liters of potable water have been provided by water trucks to the Iraqi population over the past two months.
10. City water authorities (for example, the Baghdad Water Authority and the Al Basrah Water Authority) have been engaged by USAID's partners to assess current water and sewage systems and provide information and input to plans for rehabilitating municipal systems.

The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.

Dudly Dumbfuck said:
Iraq power generation peaked at approximately 92% of "the pre-conflict generating level.

This is not bomb damage wonder brain

“Most experts agree that Iraq's power generation equipment and electrical grid was in far worse shape than
prewar estimates and that it broke down completely amid postwar looting and sabotage. Twenty years of neglect had already driven the power infrastructure to the brink of collapse before the first bombs fell on Baghdad. Electricity is a country's lifeblood, and restoring power in Iraq is the first step in moving the country off life support.”

http://www.platts.com/Magazines/POWER/2 ... %20On.html

100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war

Look what Eiffie had a brain said:

Health Minister Khudair Fadhil Abbas said about 90 percent of the hospitals and clinics have been brought back to the same poor conditions as before the war but that the others will take more time to reach even that low level

Way to cut out the only part that might be considered bad only if taken out of context.

“Dr. Khudair Abbas, the Iraqi Interim Minister of Health, and six other physicians from Iraq, met with President Bush today to discuss recent improvements in the Iraqi healthcare system. The doctors described to the President the dedicated efforts of Iraqi healthcare professionals, and the invaluable support the Iraqi medical system is receiving from the international community. Improvements in Iraq's health services include:
-- The entire country is at pre-war capabilities for providing health care -- 240 Iraqi hospitals and more than 1,200 primary health clinics are operating, offering basic healthcare services for the Iraqi people.
-- Doctors' salaries have increased to between $120 a month and $180 a month, in comparison to $20 a month before the war. There are roughly 22,000 physicians affiliated with the Ministry of Health, and about 35,000 nurses and nursing assistants.
-- The Ministry has 100,000 healthcare professionals and staff. More than 80 percent are women.
-- Iraq's 2004 budget for health care is $950 million. Saddam Hussein's regime provided only $16 million for the Ministry of Health in 2002, a 90 percent reduction from a decade earlier.
-- Health care for some ethnic groups was almost nonexistent under Saddam's regime. The Ministry of Health is working to ensure that health care is available to all Iraqis regardless of ethnicity, geographic origin, gender, or religious affiliation.
-- More than 30 million doses of children's vaccinations have been procured and distributed, and the Ministry has received grants to immunize the country's 4.2 million children under the age of five against preventable diseases such as polio, tetanus, diphtheria, measles, and tuberculosis.
-- Routine vaccinations are now available to newborns, children, and mothers every day at Ministry of Health facilities across the country and are promoted nationally through immunization days on the 22nd of each month.
-- Since May 24, the Ministry of Health has delivered more than 25,000 tons of pharmaceuticals and supplies to healthcare facilities across Iraq.
-- The Ministry is responsible for 29,000 hospital beds.
-- Since the liberation of Iraq, the country has not faced a major public health crisis.
-- Three Facility Protective Services classes have trained over 1,300 personnel to protect health facilities.
-- The Ministry of Health has completed a $1.7 million headquarters refurbishment project.
-- In addition to the United States, Japan, Egypt, Korea, Turkey, Spain, Italy, Saudi Arabia, and India are providing assistance to the Ministry of Health. This assistance includes training for doctors and nurses, construction of hospitals, and donation of ambulances.
http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/0/aa ... enDocument
Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place

In June, 2003, US authorities put a halt to local elections.

I could go on and on and find credible information sources to discount every single one of his claims, but I think you get the gist of it.

C'mon Cartalas, unless you're trying to make yourself look like an idiot, don't post horseshit like this.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 12, 2004, 10:47 am

Nice butchering job on the formatting...

And thanks for proving my point even more...
The 'letter' you posted is completely inaccurate and devoid of any credible or factual claims.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » May 12, 2004, 10:50 am

That video is quite possibly one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen...

But kooky is right, the beheading does not legitamize any of the shit we're doing over there

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » May 12, 2004, 11:00 am

I'd argue having bombs dropped on your head qualifies as a major health crisis!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 11:02 am

miir wrote:Nice butchering job on the formatting...

And thanks for proving my point even more...
The 'letter' you posted is completely inaccurate and devoid of any credible or factual claims.

Thats okay keep the Blinders on Bucky Beaver

miir · Post by **miir** » May 12, 2004, 11:13 am

Cartalas wrote:Thats okay keep the Blinders on Bucky Beaver

Instead of wasting your limited creativity and intellectual capacity on making up cute little names for me, why don't you try to post something that actually makes sense?
Do you even know what 'blinders' are?

You posted an individual's account of conditions in Iraq.
I summarily discredited the claims made in that account.
You further discredited the 'story' you posted.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » May 12, 2004, 11:32 am

Miir, he did counter some of your counterlclaims well, yes he did butcher the formatting, but he is a zealot, not a rocket scientist

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 12:02 pm

Kylere wrote:Miir, he did counter some of your counterlclaims well, yes he did butcher the formatting, but he is a zealot, not a rocket scientist

Its ok he is to busy singing "we are the world" top see anything.

miir · Post by **miir** » May 12, 2004, 12:03 pm

Kylere wrote:Miir, he did counter some of your counterlclaims well, yes he did butcher the formatting, but he is a zealot, not a rocket scientist

The point being was that I discredited his post with fairly accurate information. His followup only proved to further my point.

And it doesn't take a rockect scientist to figure out how to use UBB tags... hell, after 2700 posts you'd think he might have figured it out.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 12:07 pm

miir wrote:
Kylere wrote:Miir, he did counter some of your counterlclaims well, yes he did butcher the formatting, but he is a zealot, not a rocket scientist
The point being was that I discredited his post with fairly accurate information. His followup only proved to further my point.

And it doesn't take a rockect scientist to figure out how to use UBB tags... hell, after 2700 posts you'd think he might have figured it out.

You did What?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

as for the quoting you got the point

Mort · Post by **Mort** » May 12, 2004, 12:19 pm

kyoukan wrote:oh yeah that is a lot worse than dropping a sattelite guided bomb onto a mosque full of people.

if you are shocked and outraged by a beheading then no wonder something is so wrong with your country. you have absolutely no sense of reality.

your country is levelling entire blocks of people's houses and buildings that date back from before north america was even discovered in fallujah and baghdad, with gunships and tactical bombers. thousands of civilian casualties, and you're horrified at one retard (who, btw, had no fucking business being in Iraq to begin with) losing his head priviledges. boo fucking hoo. go live in somewhere that is being occupied by a hostile and aggresive foreign nation bent on exploiting your country's national resources for personal profit and then come back and tell me how outraged you are some dumb cunt getting his noodle hacked off. you probably wouldn't even look twice at it because you are too busy scrubbing the stain off the wall that you used call your little brother before PFC Clem Yokel mistook his blow dryer for an RPG and called for a squad of A-10's to obliterate everything within 100 square yards.

Why am I even suprised....

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » May 12, 2004, 12:23 pm

miir wrote:
Cartalas wrote:Thats okay keep the Blinders on Bucky Beaver

Instead of wasting your limited creativity and intellectual capacity on making up cute little names for me, why don't you try to post something that actually makes sense?
Do you even know what 'blinders' are?

You posted an individual's account of conditions in Iraq.
I summarily discredited the claims made in that account.
You further discredited the 'story' you posted.

In your (admirable) desire to discredit Cartalas' point, you have ignored the spirit of the original message that he posted. It appears that once the "facts" were clarified that there has been some positive progress within Iraq towards improving the standard of living of the Iraqi people (through education, utilities, medical care, etc) I am assuming that while you intend to continue arguing with Cartalas on principle alone that you are not necessarily ignoring these positive points. That these positive points come with numerous problems is unquestioned, but I believe that many people are ignoring the positive impacts in an effort to discredit Bush, the war, etc.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 12, 2004, 12:30 pm

Although the video displays a truly horrible act, I don't see how it is that much worse than what the prison guards did or some other actions that have happened in Iraq. I've seen some people whine up a storm about this act, yet DEFENDED the torture that happened. How is that possible? It simply boggles my mind..

Also, don't argue with Cartalas. He only recites what Bush whispers in his ear while giving his ass a good pounding.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » May 12, 2004, 12:36 pm

kyoukan wrote:oh yeah that is a lot worse than dropping a sattelite guided bomb onto a mosque full of people.

Your "I gotta play Devil's Advocate and educate all the idiots here" mentality - is getting tired and worn.

The question of "which is worse" is completely irrelevant. Neither action is constructive. Falling into a "this justifies that" mentality won't ever make these actions stop. On the contrary, it helps to perpetuate them.

"losing his head priviledges" - I'm going to guess that you didn't watch and listen to the tape. If you didn't, I don't blame you. If you can hear the man screaming as his life is taken from him and still think your paraphrasing is cute and appropriate, then I am sorry for you.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » May 12, 2004, 12:43 pm

That was fucking disturbing. I hope they find out who did this, the fucking animals need to be put down.

I hope those of you that see this and have a similar reaction to it as me take a minute and imagine this individual was your friend or even your family because Iraqis have been watching scenes as horific as that video for over a year now.

Imagine if you are this guys son. What would your reaction be?
http://www.al-muhaajiroun.com/videos/ta ... ustice.ram

Maybe some good will come of Nick Berg's death in that americans will see war as more than just numbers and people like Cart will come to understand that their personally convenient Pro-war badge that they wear like a badge of honor is a badge of idiocy. Real people just like your mom\dad\wife\husband die horribly in war. The western media hides this fact from us.

Edit: Your comments are way over the top kyou, nobody deserves to die like that. From the news I had read I had imagined a swift beheading by sword, not the butchering that actually happened.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 12:44 pm

Kelshara wrote:Although the video displays a truly horrible act, I don't see how it is that much worse than what the prison guards did or some other actions that have happened in Iraq. I've seen some people whine up a storm about this act, yet DEFENDED the torture that happened. How is that possible? It simply boggles my mind..

Also, don't argue with Cartalas. He only recites what Bush whispers in his ear while giving his ass a good pounding.

Yeah Beheading people is the same as piling a bunch of nakid bodies ontop of each other oh please you of all people should find the later fun.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 12:48 pm

"Imagine if you are this guys son. What would your reaction be?
http://www.al-muhaajiroun.com/videos/ta ... ustice.ram"

What was the story behind this? did this man pick up a firearm and shot someone in that platoon? We dont know!!! But we do know Berg did nothing to the Iraq people. You people keep screaming innocent people are dying yet this so called innocent people are killing other people that are innocent.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » May 12, 2004, 12:51 pm

Cartalas wrote:"Imagine if you are this guys son. What would your reaction be?
http://www.al-muhaajiroun.com/videos/ta ... ustice.ram"

What was the story behind this? did this man pick up a firearm and shot someone in that platoon? We dont know!!! But we do know Berg did nothing to the Iraq people. You people keep screaming innocent people are dying yet this so called innocent people are killing other people that are innocent.

No innocent people aren't killing anyone...Your are generalizing exactly the way those who killed Berg are generalizing...

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 12, 2004, 1:00 pm

Nah, Kyokan's right. That contractor deserved to have his head SAWED off with a dull knife for daring to try to rebuild that shithole in the sand. Jesus, Kyoukan, you really are a piece of shit.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 12, 2004, 1:08 pm

Yeah Beheading people is the same as piling a bunch of nakid bodies ontop of each other oh please you of all people should find the later fun.

Not only is piling naked people on top of eachother a huge insult to Muslims, but it was hardly the worse thing that happened. You know it, I know it, everybody else knows it. So just STFU eh?

Also.. a current problem in Iraq when it comes to civilians is that quite a few of them are hired security forces, or "mercs" if you like. Was he one? Things seem to point towards No, but we don't know for sure.

Taly · Post by **Taly** » May 12, 2004, 1:19 pm

How disturbing and depressing. Reminds me of Daniel Pearl. These people need to die. Need to find these fuckers and do to them what they have done to this person and daniel.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 1:45 pm

Kelshara wrote:
Yeah Beheading people is the same as piling a bunch of nakid bodies ontop of each other oh please you of all people should find the later fun.
Not only is piling naked people on top of eachother a huge insult to Muslims, but it was hardly the worse thing that happened. You know it, I know it, everybody else knows it. So just STFU eh?

Also.. a current problem in Iraq when it comes to civilians is that quite a few of them are hired security forces, or "mercs" if you like. Was he one? Things seem to point towards No, but we don't know for sure.

Come on pal tell me how many iraqs were beheaded by americans?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 1:47 pm

Arborealus wrote:
Cartalas wrote:"Imagine if you are this guys son. What would your reaction be?
http://www.al-muhaajiroun.com/videos/ta ... ustice.ram"

What was the story behind this? did this man pick up a firearm and shot someone in that platoon? We dont know!!! But we do know Berg did nothing to the Iraq people. You people keep screaming innocent people are dying yet this so called innocent people are killing other people that are innocent.
No innocent people aren't killing anyone...Your are generalizing exactly the way those who killed Berg are generalizing...

so you are all for an eye for an eye justice?

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » May 12, 2004, 1:49 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Cartalas wrote:"Imagine if you are this guys son. What would your reaction be?
http://www.al-muhaajiroun.com/videos/ta ... ustice.ram"

What was the story behind this? did this man pick up a firearm and shot someone in that platoon? We dont know!!! But we do know Berg did nothing to the Iraq people. You people keep screaming innocent people are dying yet this so called innocent people are killing other people that are innocent.
No innocent people aren't killing anyone...Your are generalizing exactly the way those who killed Berg are generalizing...

so you are all for an eye for an eye justice?

Errm...learn to read...

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 12, 2004, 2:03 pm

Cartalas: If I recall correctly, there's been at least two homicides, including one incident where a British soldier killed an Iraqi by stomping on the back of his neck. There've also been repeated, credible accusations of both male and female rape.

That said, I will not watch this video. Reading a description of it made me angry and disgusted enough. I have no desire to feel even worse about the whole fucking mess.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 12, 2004, 2:03 pm

Come on pal tell me how many iraqs were beheaded by americans?

- Rapes
- Beatings
- One beat to death at least
- Sexual harrassment
- Demeaning abuse

Need me to go on? And you are supposed to be the good guys winning over the population, right? The saviours from a civilized country? The guys who did this has grown up with abuse and a horrible society, what are the soldiers' excuse?

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » May 12, 2004, 2:54 pm

The difference is that we don't attempt to excuse the soldiers. We don't elevate them to hero status because they committed an atrocity against a person or group of people. We hold them accountable for their actions.

It may not be instant retribution, but through due process they are punished for their actions. The animals that beheaded that guy in Iraq are receiving praise left and right on Al Jazeera and in certain muslim circles.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 12, 2004, 3:08 pm

I am certain that some circles applaud the torture of towelheads as well.

Also, do you really believe those who initially gave the order will be punished? And if not a plain order, the hints that this would be beneficial? Because if you believe this was just a few random people doing it you are extremely naive.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 12, 2004, 3:10 pm

yes but you have to understand that the prison guards are only raping and killing muslims, not actual real people. but when an american is killed that is something totally different. let's all fucking hold hands and sing songs about this injustice while we completely ignore the tens of thousands of iraqi civilians that have died in the last year.

get some fucking perspective.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » May 12, 2004, 3:22 pm

Kelshara wrote:I am certain that some circles applaud the torture of towelheads as well.

Also, do you really believe those who initially gave the order will be punished? And if not a plain order, the hints that this would be beneficial? Because if you believe this was just a few random people doing it you are extremely naive.

The people that do "applaud the torture of towelheads" aren't part of the mainstream culture. Inasmuch as I don't turn on channel 7 for my nightly news and get it from a news anchor that opens with "God was pleased today as our troops opened fire on a schoolyard packed with Iraqi children in retribution for 9/11."

If anything, our media is more critical of us than of the Iraqis.

I would hope that any person who said more than "detain them in this jail and treat them with every courtesy required by the geneva convention" would stand trial right next to the ones who actually committed the crimes.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » May 12, 2004, 3:29 pm

kyoukan wrote:yes but you have to understand that the prison guards are only raping and killing muslims, not actual real people. but when an american is killed that is something totally different. let's all fucking hold hands and sing songs about this injustice while we completely ignore the tens of thousands of iraqi civilians that have died in the last year.

get some fucking perspective.

And we deserve no credit for saving the lives of the other tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians who were living in squalid condition without water or power. Who didn't have access to medical facilities, or those facilities were so underfunded that they may as well have been field dressing stations. We get no credit for disarming thousands of the local gangs or bringing the schools back in line so that Iraqi students could study without worrying about about some archaic russian mortar shell going off in the basement under their classroom.

I don't write off the casualties just because this is our war, I merely take a look at the overall picture and not just one side of the issue. It sucks but it's realistic. We're doing some good there and I think that they'll be better off for it in the long run.

If you'd please provide some evidence that shows that tens of thousands of civilians were killed, I'd like to see those numbers....

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » May 12, 2004, 3:35 pm

Amnesty International and the Red Cross have both estimated 10,000 civilian deaths since March 2003.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 12, 2004, 3:36 pm

Are you smoking drugs? Before the UN sanctions and the USA's "liberation" Iraq was the most modern and sophisticated large country in the middle east. All of those problems you "solved" were fucking created by you in the first place. Am I really supposed to care that you are restoring power and re-opening hospitals that were already there before you destroyed them? Give me a fucking break you retard.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 12, 2004, 3:39 pm

She's talking about the civilians killed when we bomb mosques that fundie insurgents are holed up in.

Here's a clue: If you don't want us to blow up your churches, DON'T FUCKING HIDE YOUR ARMY IN THEM.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 12, 2004, 3:41 pm

kyoukan wrote:Are you smoking drugs? Before the UN sanctions and the USA's "liberation" Iraq was the most modern and sophisticated large country in the middle east. All of those problems you "solved" were fucking created by you in the first place. Am I really supposed to care that you are restoring power and re-opening hospitals that were already there before you destroyed them? Give me a fucking break you retard.

Do me a huge favor if you hat americans so much grab a gun hop on a plane and fight with Al Queda if you are not willing to do that then STFU.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 12, 2004, 3:42 pm

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ - around 10k

I feel really bad for that beheading. But, you can't really blame that for what they did. Thousands of Iraqi civilians were killed, but many of you don;t give two shits about it. The moment you hear of one American civilian getting killed, you all scream bloody murder.

Get off your high horses. What the Iraqi's did to him was wrong, but so is what the American soldiers are doing right now.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » May 12, 2004, 3:45 pm

I feel bad for the guy being beheaded and his family - but you seriously have to question the intelligence of any american who would go to iraq to work as a civilian.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » May 12, 2004, 3:48 pm

Lynks wrote:Get off your high horses. What the Iraqi's did to him was wrong, but so is what the American soldiers are doing right now.

So you're saying that our military's activities, taken as a whole, are comparable to these guys sawing a contractor's head off? Are you fucking serious?

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 12, 2004, 3:56 pm

masteen wrote:
Lynks wrote:Get off your high horses. What the Iraqi's did to him was wrong, but so is what the American soldiers are doing right now.
So you're saying that our military's activities, taken as a whole, are comparable to these guys sawing a contractor's head off? Are you fucking serious?

No, what I'm saying is that humiliating/torturing/abusing or what ever you want to call it is just as bad as this act.

Let me ask you a question, do you think these acts are justified because the US is doing all this good? Because someone is helping someone else, they have the right to commit any act that they want?

Is 1 American civilian life better than 10,000 Iraqi civilians?