When does anti-war activism cross the line?

[Pahreyia]

AMHERST, Mass. -- A University of Massachusetts student has openly criticized Pat Tillman, calling the former NFL player a Rambo-like idiot in the school paper.


The column in question was submitted by graduate student Rene Gonzalez and published Wednesday in the Daily Collegian. It was titled "Pat Tillman is not a hero: he got what was coming to him."


Gonzalez writes that Tillman was a "Rambo" who probably acted out of "nationalist patriotic fantasies." In his own neighborhood in Puerto Rico, according to Gonzalez, Tillman would not have been considered a hero, but a "pendejo," or idiot.


The column drew harsh criticism from many on campus. University president Jack Wilson says the op-ed piece was "disgusting, arrogant and intellectually immature."


Tillman, who gave up his NFL career to join the Army Rangers in 2002, was killed in combat one week ago in Afghanistan. The military announced on Wednesday that he has been posthumously promoted to the rank of corporal and awarded the Purple Heart and Meritorious Service Medal.


"You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the 'real' thick of things," Gonzalez writes in his column, which is posted on the collegiate paper's Web site. "I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. They should call Pat Tillman's army life 'Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed.'"


Gonzalez also says that Tillman's service was not "necessary."


"It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable," Gonzalez writes. "What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his 'service' was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in."


In a letter to its readers Thursday, the Daily Collegian says Gonzalez' opinion in no way reflects that of the newspaper's editorial board. A column by one of the editors praising Tillman's sacrifice ran in the paper next to the one by Gonzalez.


"We do not hold back from printing news stories, columns or editorials that may upset our readership -- instead, we seek to both inform and stir debate through our publication," the letter, also posted on the Web site, reads. "Our decision to publish Gonzalez's column -- an opinion piece written by a member of our campus community -- is the only way for us to live up to this ideal."


Tillman will be eulogized at a public memorial service in his hometown of San Jose, Calif., early next week, and funeral arrangements are pending.


The body of Tillman arrived at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware on Monday. His brother, Spc. Kevin Tillman, also a Ranger with the 2nd Battalion of the 75th Ranger Regiment, was expected to accompany the body to the funeral home, Lawrence said.


Tillman was killed in a firefight on a road near Sperah, about 25 miles southwest of a U.S. base at Khost.


After coming under fire, Tillman's patrol got out of their vehicles and gave chase, moving toward the spot of the ambush. Beevers said the fighting was "sustained" and lasted 15-20 minutes.


The Cardinals said they will retire Tillman's No. 40 and name the plaza surrounding the new stadium under construction in suburban Glendale the "Pat Tillman Freedom Plaza."

I got this news clip from another message board, hence, no source link provided. I'm looking for the link right now and I'll post it when I find it. For the time being, I'd like to see what people think about this.

Iraq aside, I believe that we were justified going into Afghanistan. I believe that we're doing right by the Afghan people by turning that country around. To have someone take their Anti-Iraq sentiment and put it on a person who, I believe, joined the Army under the right reasons and went to war in a place where it was truly justified to do so is blatant excess of uninformed liberalism at its worst. Someone should recruit that moron for the DNC.

[Pahreyia]

Link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1792200

The Daily Collegian site is currently down.

[Voronwë]

freedom of speech means freedom to look like an idiot if the shoe fits.

[Arborealus]

What line is it you are referring to?

[Pahreyia]

What line is it you are referring to?

The line of appropriate journalistic integrity. I understand that it's an op-ed piece, and some people may think along the same lines as the author, but for a respectable news source to go forward with an opinion piece like this is something I'd expect only out of places like Berkley.

[Voronwë]

the 'line of appropriate journalistic integrity' is unfortunately a lot more difficult to discern, and tends to look a lot more like real news. you shouldnt be worried about this kind of stuff at all. it is very easy to tell that this is garbage, and it is universally regarded as such.

what you should be worried about is determining what sorts of influences might be behind information sources that appear to be a lot more 'legitimate'.

i am confident you are not suggesting this is in any way shape or form a legal issue? just a case of poor judgement/being an idiot.

[Chmee]

I believe in freedom of speech so I think the author has the right to write the piece and the paper to print it if they want.

That doesn't mean that I agree with them though. From what I have read it doesn't seem likely that the motives the piece tries to ascribe to Tillman are correct. Of course I don't know what exactly his motivations were, but I strongly suspect Gonzalez doesn't have any inside information into that either.

In particular this struck me ...

"You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the 'real' thick of things," Gonzalez writes in his column, which is posted on the collegiate paper's Web site. "I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures."

Anyone who claims to know what someone's motivations are based on looking at a picture of him on CNN is not anybody that I will be looking to for useful commentary.

[Dregor Thule]

The writer was obviously an idiot, that much is clear. But he had every right to write the piece, and the paper shouldn't be faulted for publishing it. Journalism shouldn't be about what you'd like to hear, it just is. And yes, even bad journalism is still journalism.

So, no line has been crossed other than that of stupidity.

[Pahreyia]

i am confident you are not suggesting this is in any way shape or form a legal issue? just a case of poor judgement/being an idiot.

That's exactly what I'm saying. There's obviously no legal issue here. I'd really like to get a hold of the full opinion copy but their site is still down. From what I've seen quoted however, it just seems to be so biased, naive and blatently immature on the writer's behalf, I can't imagine that the paper would be compelled to print something like this.

I would liken it to a 13 year old ranting to the paper about how his parents grounded him because he was caught smoking or because he got bad grades. It may be a valid opinion, but is it responsible to post it if the rantings are clearly written with little or no thought and meant to inflame the topic or situation?

[Dregor Thule]

Sure, because it's opinion. And as much as it galls you, there will be others out there sharing the opinion.

[Sylvus]

I would like to read the whole article, from the excerpts it appears to be a shitty college writer. Before your feathers get too ruffled, don't forget that the only qualification for being published in a college newspaper is the lack of something else to occupy your time.

[Voronwë]

I would like to read the whole article, from the excerpts it appears to be a shitty college writer. Before your feathers get too ruffled, don't forget that the only qualification for being published in a college newspaper is the lack of something else to occupy your time.

like a job at a real paper =)

[Arborealus]

What line is it you are referring to?

The line of appropriate journalistic integrity. I understand that it's an op-ed piece, and some people may think along the same lines as the author, but for a respectable news source to go forward with an opinion piece like this is something I'd expect only out of places like Berkley.

Then no clearly it does not cross lines of journalistic integrity because it wasn't journalism. It seems like the author was looking to stir some shit and has...I don't recall the Daily Collegian ever having been upheld as the bastion of great reportage...School newspapers like that are about training journalists...I am certain this young editorialist has learned from this experience...As have the editors...I think it's fine for them to print whatever they like...They are the labs of budding journalists/editors...They tend to make errors in judgement...

Re it being naive and immature...this is a college student...they tend towards immaturity and naivete'...being younger and all...

[miir]

I can't seriously believe someone getting thier knickers in a twist over a student penned, opinion piece in a newspaper with a piddly circulation of under 20k.

It is this persons constutional right, as an American to make an absolute fool of themselves in printed media, if they are so inclined.

[Sueven]

but for a respectable news source to go forward with an opinion piece like this is something I'd expect only out of places like Berkley.

Wait, so the student paper at UMass-Amherst is now a "respectable news source?" You would expect this drivel out of a hole like Berkley, but as UMass-Amherst, they hold their students to higher standards? Are you aware that Berkley is generally considered the best public university that our country has to offer?

Additionally, everyone is right about college newspapers. Witness the opening lines of an op-ed column in the one sitting on my desk: "Sure, I skip my fair share of classes, but only because I get abducted by aliens quite often. Because of this, I want the ones I do attend to be as painless as possible, because the anal probing is all the annoyance I can handle in a week. But as we all know, life isn't perfect and people suck."

But, even though I feel that the media and society are glorifying Tillman to a level far beyond what is appropriate (and way beyond what he probably would have wanted), the article is complete ignorance. But it's just some angry grad student expressing his ignorance. It's idiotic, but I don't see it as a big deal.

[Zaelath]

The writer has an axe to grind, the editor is an idiot.

As for Tillman; storming a japanese machine-gun nest was heroic, getting killed chasing a sniper into an ambush sounds gung-ho and foolish to me..

[Pahreyia]

People may have differing opinions on Tillman's decision, and that's fine. What I think people overlook is that his decision to join the Army was done at a time where Iraq hadn't even started yet. He didn't join the army to fight against the threats from Iraq (real or embellished). He joined to fight against the government of the country that funded, sponsored and housed the people that hijacked the planes on 9/11.

Since the 60s the entire idea of Patriotism has come under fire because of the foreign conflicts that America has gotten into. The old idea of Patriotism and Nationalism is frowned upon these days. People who claim to be doing their patriotic duty are called sellouts, baby-killers and generally unintelligent/naive idiots. Pat Tillman went beyond all of the stereotypes that people generally place on the armed forces and gave up a very comfortable life to do what he felt was his duty as an American. He personified what it was to be a Patriot. While I think that he's received more press and glory than he probably should have, he's no less an example for Americans to look up to for what he stood for and what he did.

I don't believe in deifying the man, but in my opinion lambasting him for serving in the interests of his country by volunteering to fight against the people that attacked us is honorable, if nothing else. Giving his life in that pursuit is noble.

Part of what he stood for was the freedoms that we all take advantage of every day. In no clearer forum than here, people express widely varying opinions and dissentions regarding a myriad of topics. I believe in free speech. There's no greater need for this freedom than now. In that, I respect the writer's freedom to write what he did, but with editorial rights comes responsibility for what is printed. It's my opinion that the piece that the Colliegian printed was base and unnecessary. The naivete and insolence that the writer expressed provided nothing constructive towards addressing another side of this story. I'd much rather see someone like Al Frankin write a piece dispelling the heroism of Pat Tillman because at the very least, he'd write intelligibly on the topic and provide a foundation for discussion.

[Voronwë]

I'd much rather see someone like Al Frankin write a piece dispelling the heroism of Pat Tillman because at the very least, he'd write intelligibly on the topic and provide a foundation for discussion.

i am confident that you are not suggesting that Al Franken tends to be unsupportive of troops etc. He has done several USO tours, and i've never heard him say anything derogatory about the troops, to the contrary, he has been very supportive both in print and on the air.

[miir]

The person who wrote that load of shit was either just trying to stir up shit or to provoke patriotism....

It's a horribly written piece of claptrap that's not even worth discussing.

[Sionistic]

cross any lines? no
prove the writer is an idiot? yes
what else is there to this discussion?

[kyoukan]

it can't even spell franken's name and you expect it to know that?

Afghanistan is a fucking lost cause at the moment and Afghanis in general are worse off now than when they were under the Taliban. Now instead of one group of islamic fundies running the country there's 100 different islamic fundies fighting over who is going to run the country, and the US has a lower amount of troops in there than fucking Canada does. It's pathetic. You blew that country up and then abandoned it to the wolves to fight your stupid little oil war. How dare you talk talk about patriotism when all you do serve the greedy self interests of your leaders.

[Pahreyia]

I'd much rather see someone like Al Frankin write a piece dispelling the heroism of Pat Tillman because at the very least, he'd write intelligibly on the topic and provide a foundation for discussion.

i am confident that you are not suggesting that Al Franken tends to be unsupportive of troops etc. He has done several USO tours, and i've never heard him say anything derogatory about the troops, to the contrary, he has been very supportive both in print and on the air.

I said I'd rather see him write a dissenting opinion on Pat Tillman's decision to join up. I know that Al Frankin is supportive of the troops and an article by him would reflect that. It would be intelligent and could support discussions by either side on the issue.

[Jice Virago]

Watch Fox News (and I say News with a great deal of chagrin) Network for a week. Then come back and tell me how one anit-war guy is going to far. Opinions are just that. Opinions. Feel free to blast the guy's ideas, but not his right to voice them.

And I have respect for the guy, but they are going to make part of the stadium the fucking Pat Tillman "Freedom Plaza" ? What the fuck? Would this guy even want this kind of over nationalistic bullshit?

[Dregor Thule]

Umm.. Pah probably already watches Fox News.

[kyoukan]

he probably whacks off to fox news.

[Xzion]

Anyone who insults our soldiers is a fucking asshole, the american soldiers are at this point and time maybe the greatest victims of the Bush admin, if you want to critizise the troops, you have ever right to do so...but you wont get much support, and you will make the cause to get bush out of office in november even more of a challenge.

I blame the media for singling out one soldier just becouse he was a celebrity, he is just as much of a hero as any of the other 700+ soldiers who fell on the battlefield.

[Pahreyia]

Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him

By Rene Gonzalez
April 28, 2004


When the death of Pat Tillman occurred, I turned to my friend who was watching the news with me and said, "How much you want to bet they start talking about him as a 'hero' in about two hours?" Of course, my friend did not want to make that bet. He'd lose. In this self-critical incapable nation, nothing but a knee-jerk "He's a hero" response is to be expected.

I've been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman's "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not surprised. True, it's not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. They should call Pat Tillman's army life "Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed."

But, does that make him a hero? I guess it's a matter of perspective. For people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than take from it. It's the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it's understandable why Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship.

However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a "pendejo," an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy.

Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn't need to insert himself into. It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his "service" was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.

Perhaps it's the old, dreamy American thought process that forces them to put sports greats and "larger than life" sacrificial lambs on the pedestal of heroism, no matter what they've done. After all, the American nation has no other role to play but to be the cheerleaders of the home team; a sad role to have to play during conflicts that suffer from severe legitimacy and credibility problems.

Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he shouldn't be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull. It might just make a regular man irrationally drop $3.6 million to go fight in a conflict that was anything but "self-defense." The same could be said of the unusual belief of 50 percent of the American nation that thinks Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. One must indeed stand in awe of the amazing success of the American propaganda machine. It works wonders.

Al-Qaeda won't be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the Palestinian resistance. For that reason, Tillman's service, along with that of thousands of American soldiers, has been wrongly utilized. He did die in vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11. The sad part is that we won't realize it before we send more people like Pat Tillman over to their deaths.

Rene Gonzalez is a UMass graduate student.

[nobody]

it can't even spell franken's name and you expect it to know that?

Afghanistan is a fucking lost cause at the moment and Afghanis in general are worse off now than when they were under the Taliban. Now instead of one group of islamic fundies running the country there's 100 different islamic fundies fighting over who is going to run the country, and the US has a lower amount of troops in there than fucking Canada does. It's pathetic. You blew that country up and then abandoned it to the wolves to fight your stupid little oil war. How dare you talk talk about patriotism when all you do serve the greedy self interests of your leaders.

Fuck you, we shouldn't have gone to Iraq but how do you know what Afghani's think? have you ever talked to one? Tell me, what the hell have you ever done to make their life better besides bitch and complain about what everyone else is doing wrong? Rome wasn't built in a day jackass. What the hell do you think we should have done? Sit back and let Al -Queda have a free place to operate and kill innocent people? The Afghani's are happy we are here so you can kiss THEIR ass.

[Sionistic]

nice little pedestal you got there nobody

[Toshira]

FQ Kyo! (and fill up my tank with super premium, please!)

[miir]

Fuck you, we shouldn't have gone to Iraq but how do you know what Afghani's think? have you ever talked to one?

Well, considering we still have a lot of forces still in Afghanistan (because the US essentially abandoned them to move forces to Iraq).... we have a lot of media coverage of the situation in there.

What the hell do you think we should have done? Sit back and let Al -Queda have a free place to operate and kill innocent people?

The US should have had a plan that went deeper than 'Lets bomb the shit out of them and fuck off'

[nobody]

media coverage can kiss my ass. they do a good job yes but you can't watch cnn and expect to be able to speak for the people here. i totally agree we should've finished the job here before we went to iraq. or rather we should have found a different route than to even invade iraq. my point is though that the Afghani's feel that they are better off now than before and they for the most part are supporting us. i totally agree, we should have had a better plan than blow the shit out of everything and move on to iraq but i still feel like we are doing a good job here with what we've got and it's thanks to the Afghani's. that seems the problem with this administration, rush in, blow shit up and then, umm uh...? same thing in iraq. i personally am not a fan of Kerry but i'm not seeing much hope in the alternative either. it's not just Bush but Rumsfeld too. i just don't see any alternative than to vote for Cart.

[Atokal]

it can't even spell franken's name and you expect it to know that?

More bainile commantary from an idiot...
Didn't sea this comming either as it is ludikrous.

is this post coming from the same dickhole that responded to me just last week specifically to make fun of a typo I made? what's the weather like on your alternate plane of reality where people don't make fun of you every time you open your cum hole?

Kyoukan is a man.

(Pah) he probably whacks off to fox news.

Just because I am more masculine than you does not make me a man. I've bought boxes of tampons that are more manly than you, you fucking pathetic troll whom no one likes.

in response to Searyx:
Yeah yeah kyoukan is a man ROFLLORZ~ ME = OWNED WOW WHAT A FUCKING COMEBACK DID YOU THINK OF THAT ALL BY YOURSELF HOLY FUCK JEEZ THAT IS TOTALLY ORIGINAL AND I AM SURE EVEN THE PEOPLE THAT KNOW ME FROM REAL LIFE BELIEVE YOU WOW

God you are gay. I mean... God. You are just so gay.

HAR

[Truant]

It's completely disturbing that you stalk someone so, over an electronic means of communication.

Is your life that empty?

[Atokal]

It's completely disturbing that you stalk someone so, over an electronic means of communication.

Is your life that empty?

Pot fucking the kettle?

How about this kid, you don't follow every one of my posts about Kyoukan with one of your own.

Sound good stalker. Or get a life yourself.

Cheers

[Raistin]

Seeing how 99% of your posts, are about her. Its hard not to fucking mention. You bring up the most fucking gayest Copy Past and quote posts Ive ever seen in random threads.

I dont care if its a thread talking about burning ants with a lighter. You will have to make a 500 word essay of just every single one of her posts, and add in your random thoughts.


You seem to have more issues than Biker boy.

[Atokal]

Seeing how 99% of your posts, are about her. Its hard not to fucking mention. You bring up the most fucking gayest Copy Past and quote posts Ive ever seen in random threads.

I dont care if its a thread talking about burning ants with a lighter. You will have to make a 500 word essy of just every single one of her posts, and add in your random thoughts.


You seem to have more issues than Biker boy.

Btw the word is ESSAY (an aranuilism)

Cheers

[miir]

I'm stupider for having read that.

[Fairweather Pure]

What the hell do you think we should have done? Sit back and let Al -Queda have a free place to operate and kill innocent people?

Perhaps the US should not have trained and armed Al Queda and then sat back and watch as they killed innocent people to begin with? All this mess in the Middle East is basiclly reaping what we sowed years ago. I'm amazed so many people fail to realize or acknowledge our part in creating the situations we are currently dealing with.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

What the hell do you think we should have done? Sit back and let Al -Queda have a free place to operate and kill innocent people?

Perhaps the US should not have trained and armed Al Queda and then sat back and watch as they killed innocent people to begin with? All this mess in the Middle East is basiclly reaping what we sowed years ago. I'm amazed so many people fail to realize or acknowledge our part in creating the situations we are currently dealing with.

Stop living in the past. Yes, it sure would be great if we had a fucking crystal ball that would be able to warn us before making allegiances, that one day they will come back and kill us. Until that time, try and think about the question that was asked.

[Fairweather Pure]

Stop living in the past.

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"

You, and people like you, are too quick to anger and too slow to think.

[Kelshara]

[quote="Midnyte_Ragebringer]
Stop living in the past. Yes, it sure would be great if we had a fucking crystal ball that would be able to warn us before making allegiances, that one day they will come back and kill us. Until that time, try and think about the question that was asked.[/quote]

Start planning or thinking more than 2 months ahead of time and plan your actions with that, and you wouldn't look like a clueless idiot so often.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

[quote="Midnyte_Ragebringer]
Stop living in the past. Yes, it sure would be great if we had a fucking crystal ball that would be able to warn us before making allegiances, that one day they will come back and kill us. Until that time, try and think about the question that was asked.

Start planning or thinking more than 2 months ahead of time and plan your actions with that, and you wouldn't look like a clueless idiot so often.[/quote]

Yeah, uh huh. Maybe you haven't read my many posts asking for others to stop being so short sighted.

And if you are talking about America looking past two months. They often are. The Iraq thing is a prime example.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Stop living in the past.

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it"

You, and people like you, are too quick to anger and too slow to think.

What are you? A quote specialist?

Neat, but misplaced.

I said nothing about ignoring the past or forgetting the lessons it teaches. I said don't harp on the fucking past. "Forget about the past" as in stop fucking harping on the god damned past. Start thinking about ways to be better in the future and start thinking about ways to help the problems created in the past.

Too quick to anger? Nah. Just true in my passions and beliefs. Too slow to think? Wrong again. But, you are too quick to label and too slow to answer the question at hand instead of putting down the questioner.

[nobody]

i just have to remind myself that it's easier for people to point fingers than come up with a solution. and speaking about the past, wasn't Hitler's rise to power facilitated by appeasement?

[Arborealus]

Bah nevermind...

[miir]

And if you are talking about America looking past two months. They often are. The Iraq thing is a prime example.

....my fellow Americans, major combat operations in Iraq have ended

[Kelshara]

And if you are talking about America looking past two months. They often are. The Iraq thing is a prime example.

Yes because the US has such a good track record in supporting dictators and madmen... has a single one NOT turned against them?

[Pahreyia]

What the hell do you think we should have done? Sit back and let Al -Queda have a free place to operate and kill innocent people?

Perhaps the US should not have trained and armed Al Queda and then sat back and watch as they killed innocent people to begin with? All this mess in the Middle East is basiclly reaping what we sowed years ago. I'm amazed so many people fail to realize or acknowledge our part in creating the situations we are currently dealing with.

So then do you think that we're wrong to try and fix our fuckup from twenty years ago Fair?

[Pahreyia]

And if you are talking about America looking past two months. They often are. The Iraq thing is a prime example.

....my fellow Americans, major combat operations in Iraq have ended

Combat operations have ended. We've moved on to suppression and policing. We're not fighting an army anymore.