The "What happened to Fiends" post

[suppin]

omfg you bastard, i didn't even finish reading, i stopped at "Boo"

post on the site or something man we all missed u so much

[Noysyrump]

Jesus... i swear people can be clueless. it was stated 8 million times.

This guild wouldnt have been formed without alts. People wont play alts if they dont get loot. So alts could get loot.

If a main lost loot to an alt its for 1 of 2 reasons... A) they didnt raid as much as that alt. or 2) they just spent there dkp on a different loot.

So it was all golden. (course I'm one of thos alt looters!~)

the trash of the server, and still better than you.
God i love that.

[VariaVespasa]

Xyun- A system which doesnt reward people for doing extra work is flawed too, and 2-boxing is extra work, and of course extra rl expense into the bargain. I believe a quick look at soviet communism will show you what not rewarding people for extra effort will do. Why work to become a doctor when you can make as much being a factory worker? Sure, some people will become doctors for love of the calling, or the respect, or the challenge or whatever, but overall the system suffers and is dragged down. Same thing applies to 2-boxing, albeit to a lesser degree since a much higher percentage of players are in it for the love of the game. But it does apply.

Menelaos- "what about helping and supporting your guildies"? What about helping and supporting the people who are putting extra effort into supporting the guild with their 2-boxes? Thats a TWO-way street, not a one-way street.

I think 2-boxes do indeed deserve some recognition for loot. What form that takes and what the rules are with regards to alts vs mains is open to debate, but that theyre due something isnt, in my opinion. I dont have any problem with the Fiends system as long as everyone knew what it was going in. Alts get equal dkp but have a harder time winning over a main is a perfectly valid concept. Its not necessarily the one I would choose, but its a valid choice.

*Hugs*
Varia

[Pahreyia]

By the time I joined in September, Fiends was done with VT altogether.

Pahreyia joined Fiends? Oh man, I missed that one...

Yeah, I was the single focal reason for the guild breaking up. Sorry Boo.. I heard you were coming back and decided to pull the last pins holding it all together~

[Omjykhe]

How I miss my Boo

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

me too ><

[Menelaos]

It's called team-spirit Varia; I think Rekaar said it best in his post. Sure alts are deserving of loot, but the owner should pay at the same rate everyone ELSE pays. It's preposterous when you play multiple boxes and get multiple DKP adjustments for it. And if you don't get "paid" for multi-boxing, then you won't play them to help your guild? These kind of people need to be kicked off the guild; guilds are formed as a "team", not a frickin loot-whoring outfit. It's really no surprise to me that such an organization could fall apart; there aren't the real bonds of a "family" to hold it together when all you are thining about is getting paid for your efforts.

Don't get me wrong now, I am not putting Fiends down, I am just giving an opinion of a system. God knows I have friends from among Fiends.

edit: It strikes me as quite funny, that the people supporting the notion that alts should receive some sort of reward, are the poeple that multi-box. Think about that one a little...

[Spankes]

Well, loot for boxed people was always a sort of tightrope to walk when I did loot. I hated giving loot to alts, but at the same time there is no doubt that these boxed characters are helping in some way, perhaps a major way depending on how many of your characters are boxed. In a dkp system it seems reasonable to me to allow boxed characters to get loot so long as there is some sort of penalty for the purchase (i.e. increased dkp cost for said item...say ~50% more). That way, the boxed character is still geared up enough to be a viable bot, but is still getting geared at a much slower rate than mains.

In any case, the members of Fiends knew how the system worked and still joined/stayed in the guild. I don't even know why this is being debated. Different strokes for different folks.

[Rekaar.]

Innoruuk dropped the Rare dagger Jagged Timeforged Blade
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22530

The dagger was awarded to an ALT.

The alt was an alt of an officer.

The officer is the GF of the GL.
http://www.fiendsguild.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3531

Appears to be debated because it was brought up!

[Drinsic Darkwood]

It's called team-spirit Varia; I think Rekaar said it best in his post. Sure alts are deserving of loot, but the owner should pay at the same rate everyone ELSE pays. It's preposterous when you play multiple boxes and get multiple DKP adjustments for it. And if you don't get "paid" for multi-boxing, then you won't play them to help your guild? These kind of people need to be kicked off the guild; guilds are formed as a "team", not a frickin loot-whoring outfit. It's really no surprise to me that such an organization could fall apart; there aren't the real bonds of a "family" to hold it together when all you are thining about is getting paid for your efforts.

Don't get me wrong now, I am not putting Fiends down, I am just giving an opinion of a system. God knows I have friends from among Fiends.

edit: It strikes me as quite funny, that the people supporting the notion that alts should receive some sort of reward, are the poeple that multi-box. Think about that one a little...

It strikes me as quite funny how I have no alts that I multi-box. I either played Luggz or Drinsic and only added a dkp adjustment to one or the other, and I was totally in favor of our system. Good try, though.

Innoruuk dropped the Rare dagger Jagged Timeforged Blade
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22530

The dagger was awarded to an ALT.

The alt was an alt of an officer.

The officer is the GF of the GL.
http://www.fiendsguild.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3531

Appears to be debated because it was brought up!

Brought up by someone who's not a member of Fiends? Um, ok.

[Menelaos]

Great work Drinsic, you've managed to show your minority position as a defining element against my statement. How about the REST of them...I can gaurantee you that most of the non two-boxers have or have had ill feelings about the whole deal. They just don't have the guts to speak up, or don't want to alienate friends, or have too much of an ego problem to speak up about a system they belonged in. If you know anything about human nature, then this is irrefuteable. Period. What's the point of arguing? It's obvious from my standpoint that you aren't a DKP abuser, given your equipment and DKP totals. You have no need to play the role of Defendant.

[Asheran Mojomaster]

Great work Drinsic, you've managed to show your minority position as a defining element against my statement. How about the REST of them...I can gaurantee you that most of the non two-boxers have or have had ill feelings about the whole deal. They just don't have the guts to speak up, or don't want to alienate friends, or have too much of an ego problem to speak up about a system they belonged in. If you know anything about human nature, then this is irrefuteable. Period. What's the point of arguing? It's obvious from my standpoint that you aren't a DKP abuser, given your equipment and DKP totals. You have no need to play the role of Defendant.

I was never in Fiends, and I don't know everything about their DKP system, but I was never a 2boxer but their system seems pretty good to me. Personally, if I had to make a DKP system, the only thing I would change at all, is instead of alt 2boxes getting full dkp, maybe give them .75 dkp for every 1 given to other people. That way they can't just get so far ahead of someone and not let them have a chance to catch up. Seriously though, if you don't reward 2boxers in some way, half of em won't 2box, then guilds like Fiends won't have the numbers to do the shit they did.

You can say its because people are greedy, or you can say they arent team players, but its wrong to expect people to spend extra RL cash, and put out OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more effort than others and get the same exact reward in return. Especially if you are planning on 2boxing even in higher zones, as has been said before, ever see a 4k mana FT2 cleric try to do any sort of healing in Ele (or higher, but I didnt make it higher than Ele before I quit)? It doesn't work too well. Or how about a warrior with 5k hps unbuffed try to offtank a mob that quads for 1k+? It can be done, but if the alts are as well equipped as mains to begin with, you never run into that problem.

[Pahreyia]

Great work Drinsic, you've managed to show your minority position as a defining element against my statement. How about the REST of them...I can gaurantee you that most of the non two-boxers have or have had ill feelings about the whole deal. They just don't have the guts to speak up, or don't want to alienate friends, or have too much of an ego problem to speak up about a system they belonged in. If you know anything about human nature, then this is irrefuteable. Period. What's the point of arguing? It's obvious from my standpoint that you aren't a DKP abuser, given your equipment and DKP totals. You have no need to play the role of Defendant.

I was a member and I was in complete support for the system.

We had between 4 and 6 full time boxed clerics. A cleric in a raiding guild is a overqualified metronome at best. Count to 2, hit a hotkey, cast, count to 2, hit a hotkey....

If it weren't for our alts earning at the rate our mains did, we would not have had a rotation that could sustain a 1-2 second CH chain for the amount of time we needed to. And on the nights that our regular clerics took off, when we only had our boxed cleric force, we would not have been successful with fully ornate equipped clerics.

It's a matter of drive and purpose. We had a game to beat and we needed our full-time raiders, boxed or not, geared to do just that.

[Menelaos]

If that is truly the overwhelming case, all things being even, with everyone multi-boxing, everyone would still be equipped at the same rate, regardless of their status as a primary or alt. Logic...

Clerics in a raid being an overqualified metronome? Then...why were boxed clerics paid the same rate of dkp? By your same argument, you are saying that these easily playable and non-thinking roles (Ever heard of assist healing? I guess not) are deserving of full dkp allotment. If rotational clericing is so frickin easy, why in hell do they deserve to be paid the same rate as the next joe?

Multi-boxing should be awarded on the merit that the person playing is paying for extra accounts? You gotta be kiddin' me; this is a game, that person CHOSE to play multiple accounts, nobody forced him to keep them active...

Really though, I don't want to make a big issue here; it was your guild and not mine, and if you say nobody minded, then I'll take your word for it. I tend to speak my mind; I don't have hidden agendas or hide my feelings. I wear them on my shoulder Just ignore me if I'm pissin' you off.

[Pahreyia]

If that is truly the overwhelming case, all things being even, with everyone multi-boxing, everyone would still be equipped at the same rate, regardless of their status as a primary or alt. Logic...

That's the wonderful thing about raid attendance. The boxed clerics that showed up more often were better equipped than the casual or semi-casual members.

Clerics in a raid being an overqualified metronome? Then...why were boxed clerics paid the same rate of dkp? By your same argument, you are saying that these easily playable and non-thinking roles (Ever heard of assist healing? I guess not) are deserving of full dkp allotment. If rotational clericing is so frickin easy, why in hell do they deserve to be paid the same rate as the next joe?

I didn't insult your intelligence. Don't assume to think that I don't know what goes into raiding at the elemental+ level.

Those clerics deserve the same DKP because they're there.

Multi-boxing should be awarded on the merit that the person playing is paying for extra accounts? You gotta be kiddin' me; this is a game, that person CHOSE to play multiple accounts, nobody forced him to keep them active...

You're right. But they're good enough to be an asset to the guild as both characters. It was the people who were _that_ good that earned appropriately.

Really though, I don't want to make a big issue here; it was your guild and not mine, and if you say nobody minded, then I'll take your word for it. I tend to speak my mind; I don't have hidden agendas or hide my feelings. I wear them on my shoulder Just ignore me if I'm pissin' you off.

No worries. We all knew what we were getting ourselves into when it came to loot. It was the little inconsistancies that really frosted me, not the system itself.

[Asheran Mojomaster]

If that is truly the overwhelming case, all things being even, with everyone multi-boxing, everyone would still be equipped at the same rate, regardless of their status as a primary or alt. Logic...

Clerics in a raid being an overqualified metronome? Then...why were boxed clerics paid the same rate of dkp? By your same argument, you are saying that these easily playable and non-thinking roles (Ever heard of assist healing? I guess not) are deserving of full dkp allotment. If rotational clericing is so frickin easy, why in hell do they deserve to be paid the same rate as the next joe?

Multi-boxing should be awarded on the merit that the person playing is paying for extra accounts? You gotta be kiddin' me; this is a game, that person CHOSE to play multiple accounts, nobody forced him to keep them active...

Really though, I don't want to make a big issue here; it was your guild and not mine, and if you say nobody minded, then I'll take your word for it. I tend to speak my mind; I don't have hidden agendas or hide my feelings. I wear them on my shoulder Just ignore me if I'm pissin' you off.

Yeah clerics are easy to play, boring, but easy, but they are also completely equip-reliant. Without good FT, mana, and focuses, they can't keep up.

[suppin]

Boxed players in Fiends got zero dkp if they were someone else's char.

[VariaVespasa]

Menelaos- So 2-boxers who thinks alts are worth something are always being greedy as their prime motivation, and single-boxers that think alts are worth something are just apologists or are being forced to say that for political reasons and dont really mean it? Oh yes, very nice intellectual corruption and ad hominen bullying there! Brought to us by the same people who brought us the now thankfully mostly discredited NBG smokescreen, and the "if you dont support the Patriot Act you must be unpatriotic" mindset. Oooooookay.

It is possible to support a point of view for other than greedy reasons you know. I support the value of 2-boxes. I 2-box. The two are independant of each other. Indeed I supported 2-boxing long before I surrendered to being enough of a goober to start 2-boxing myself, and long before dkp systems really entered the game. I also support some kind of perk for leaders too, but I'm not a leader and thus not a potential beneficiary of that opinion. And you for damn sure better have something better than mindless and contempible suspicion and paranoia on your side if you want to question my integrity on either subject and remain friends.

Varia

[Rekaar.]

sounds pretty inconsistent to me ;D

[Forthe]

How I miss my Boo

How I miss Omjafghfsdfsd

[devereaux]

I am of the firm belief that 2 boxers or anybody who plays more than one character is not playing their primary to their fullest ability. Sorry to say it, but I cannot count the number of times that you've missed your rotation in the CH chain Varia, because you were too busy nuking on your wizard. Officers 2 box just as much as regular members. I'd also say that officers put in more than some of the regular members. Yet they do not demand more dkp than the members. It'd be silly to reward 2 boxers if you're not rewarding the raidleaders just as well. Sorry, but 2 boxers shouldn't get extra DKP.

[Psyloche]

Think it was Pahrexia who kind of inferred that playing a cleric was easy. I think eq in general is easy, just fuckin pay attention. This is also coming from a rogue, not exactly hard! Anyway, I think Drolgin is really a swedish composer gone to Denmark posing as a native so he'd seem like a prodigy among their less than stellar musicians :/

[Pahreyia]

I never said Rogues were a difficult class to play. In my opinion the only class that's truly tough to master would be a bard.

That doesn't discount the fact that a raiding cleric is basically a glorified metronome.

[Gemily]

I never said Rogues were a difficult class to play. In my opinion the only class that's truly tough to master would be a bard.

That doesn't discount the fact that a raiding cleric is basically a glorified metronome.

PFFFFFT

[Lynxe]

I am of the firm belief that 2 boxers or anybody who plays more than one character is not playing their primary to their fullest ability.

I agree with that statement, (and I am a two boxer) but someone's "fullest abilities" changes based on the person. I'd argue that:
- many two boxers play two characters better than some people play one
- depending on the raid, having 2 characters boxed can be better than having one playing at 100%

[Clatis]

Yeah, the 2boxing thing depends firmly on the situation and the classes being boxed.

1 person boxing 5 rot clerics could be better than 1 person on each cleric just because his timing could be better and doesn't get the server lag as the other players would because he could time better and be on the same lag as the other clerics he is boxing. It could be ~ I smell an arguement over that paragraph ><


but uh, boxing has nothing or very little with why fiends is no longer. ~

and Pahreyia ~ you owe 55dkp (give or take) of raiding ! hop to it ^_^

[VariaVespasa]

Dev- I'd agree that a good percentage of 2-boxers dont get maximum value out of either character. I'd agree with Clatis that how much value they get out of each box tends to be significantlys dependant on the classes involved. There is a reason why I box a wizard and not a melee, forinstance. However I'd also suggest that typically 2 partially effective boxes > 1 fully effective box, with a few obvious exceptions, and your charming ad hominem attack on me doesnt actually change that general fact. My personal guesstimate is that adding a box adds about 50% value overall on average, rather than a full 100%. As I said, how exactly that might be translated to dkp effects and what the rules for the use of that dkp should be are other issues entirely which I havent addressed, I merely think there should be something is all.

Officers 2-box as much as regular members? Er, so? I dont recall suggesting that they should be exempt from 2-boxing bonuses, if any were to be added. Nor does it make a decision not to include a bonus somehow more valid or meritorious, it merely makes it easier to give that decision political spin.

Leader dkp- I've been gaming for a looong time now, first on MUDs, then on EQ, and I've seen the amount of stress, grief, crap, and general cat-herding work that leaders have to deal with from all the angles, including doing a bit of leading myself from time to time back on my old MUD. And that was in a game where raids were limited to only 15 people, and it was still a big pain in the butt a lot of the time. So I've learned what leaders have to put up with and how rare they actually are, so I tend to appreciate them. I've seen more than one guild wallow and founder because the leader left. Just one person, and an entire guild can dissolve when they leave, because people who can and will fill that role are not actually common, no matter how easy it looks.

So some kind of leader perk for dealing with it all so I dont have to and so things get done, thus adding to my fun in the game would happily get my full support. A 10 or 20% bonus to dkp or something forinstance would be peachy. I know I always tried to make sure the leader of the group back during my MUDding time got some kind of bonus for his time. Usually being the last to place a bid on the loot (after they had seen all the other bids, and could thus place theirs better) worked out well. (This was in a game when people bid by stating a desired item and guessing a number 1-100, and once all the bids were in the bids would be publicly stated and then a random number generated, and the person whose bid was closest to that number for the item in question would win the item. Obviously being able to place your bid after seeing all the others was a noticeable but not overwhelming advantage) I never lead in EQ, but I'd happily support those who do getting a bonus for it. Even for you, though I'm only mildy luke-warm at best to you as a person so far, because when you played you lead. You made things happen, and ate the work and stress that went with it so I didnt have to, and added to my fun.

*Hugs*
Varia

[Etasi]

IThat doesn't discount the fact that a raiding cleric is basically a glorified metronome.

I pity guilds in which this is a widely held opinion, especially when it's widely held among clerics.

[Tuldian]

I read Etasi's post but all I was hearing was tick...tick...tick...tick

[Korell]

We relied upon the superior assist healing that came from our druids/shaman Etasi. Fear my mighty 1.5k heal!@!

Anyway, DKP for Alts wasn't the reason Fiends died. This was just part of our system that the majority of the guild agreed with, and understood. Alts got DKP, but had a penalty applied when buying things. Had the penalty simply been increased over time, or were a percentage of the item's cost, the system probably would have run smoother.

As far as officer rewards goes... haelp haelp officer corruption.

[Spankes]

Officers always seem to catch crap for taking a loot. More often than not it isnt because they take more, but because they are higher profile. It is as if members want officers to do all the work in a guild and not even get an equal share of the loot.

If the Fiends officers had taken every single loot that last night in time I wouldn't see a problem with it if they had a dkp system. The basis of the system is being rewarded for what you do and getting whatever item you want once you can afford it. If they had the dkp, let them have everything. All that means is they took nothing for a long ass time.

[Forthe]

Menelaos- So 2-boxers who thinks alts are worth something are always being greedy as their prime motivation, and single-boxers that think alts are worth something are just apologists or are being forced to say that for political reasons and dont really mean it? Oh yes, very nice intellectual corruption and ad hominen bullying there! Brought to us by the same people who brought us the now thankfully mostly discredited NBG smokescreen, and the "if you dont support the Patriot Act you must be unpatriotic" mindset. Oooooookay.

It is possible to support a point of view for other than greedy reasons you know. I support the value of 2-boxes. I 2-box. The two are independant of each other. Indeed I supported 2-boxing long before I surrendered to being enough of a goober to start 2-boxing myself, and long before dkp systems really entered the game. I also support some kind of perk for leaders too, but I'm not a leader and thus not a potential beneficiary of that opinion. And you for damn sure better have something better than mindless and contempible suspicion and paranoia on your side if you want to question my integrity on either subject and remain friends.

Varia

From my point of view DKP is a reward mostly for the *time* an individual contributes. Wether that person is pressing 2 buttons or 4 buttons is pretty insignificant in comparison IMO.

Alts are rewarded by having *access* to the same loot as a main as well as flag\key help. Putting in the exact same amount of *time* as a single boxer the 2 boxer will come out well ahead. Sure they won't come out at 2x ahead but they can easily come out at 1.5-1.8x ahead in my estimation judging by some of our regular two boxers. That isn't a bad return at all IMO.

Rewarding an individual with twice the DKP for the same amount of time is retarded IMO but if people that joined Fiends were aware of it and accepted it then they have no reason to bitch about it now.

[Etasi]

We relied upon the superior assist healing that came from our druids/shaman Etasi. Fear my mighty 1.5k heal!@!

I didn't assume one way or the other about how Pah's opinion applied to Fiends as a guild, just wanted to express my disdain for that viewpoint.

[Rekaar.]

You two-box because you enjoy it, not because it is in any way required. If we were to award dkp to alts what happens when the raid limit is maxed out at 54 and we tell your alt to gtfo? Right now you complain and do it, but at least you don't feel you're losing dkp by logging your toy off

If we took a step back 2 years to a simpler time when 4 groups could raid just about anything, 2 boxing WAS a necessity. These days though, you can either log in a needed class/member that isn't on or you can play your funbot. I don't think it's fair to say logging said funbot should earn you anything at all. I like that rotting loot and rotting loot only goes to said funbots, and I'm a habitual boxer like yourself varia. You and I both continue to do it because it's fun to have more abilities and roles. The reason you continue to do it is because that is it's own reward - an enriched gaming experience.

[Menelaos]

I do believe Etasi echoed my sentiments on the idea that clerics are no more than glorified metronomes. I didn't want to up and say it, but I think it's pretty sad anyone could hold that opinion. I'm sorry, but if you relied on shm and druids to do all the assist healing, you're losing in other areas, such as DPS, and rebuff mana, debuffing, ..., ..., ...

Varia, why are you taking it so personally? Did I attack you, or hit some sort of sensitive nerve or something? I thought I was being quite civil about it, and you're blowing up in my face. Since you asked for it, I'll give it to you. I hated it when we were grouped together back in Legion, because you could always rely on dying from total lack of attention and missing heals. You know, you drove Marxes nuts by insisting on 2-boxing and thinking you could play your cleric reliably. I've always been the gentlemen and never brought this up with you, and in fact, remained my cheery self and treated you with the utmost respect due a fellow guildie, and, I thought, a friend. For over three years I never brought this up with you, but since it seems like you're willing to throw that away on some sort of odd defensive behavior, I guess I shouldn't dance around the issue anymore. Threatening me to renege on my statement in order to remain "friends" isn't the way to talk to a "friend". I never talked down to you or directed any sort of verbal attack at you, Var. I apologize if I am taking a cheap shot, but if you are going to direct all sorts of nasty comments toward me, you're asknig for the same in return...

[Korell]

Menelaos... was a joke. Notice the comment about the amazing heals that shaman get. Thou, as other clerics continue to burn out, it is hard to retain good ones. Many times you must settle for a cleric that simply can count to 12 and push a button. Higher guilds lose clerics over time, and replace them with clerics from lower tier guilds, those lower tier guilds must then get new ones, usually not as good as the one that just left. But really, thanks for letting me no we were losing out in other areas.. I didn't notice.

-

So can we all agree that this thread has turned into nothing more than a debating forum for the validity of alts getting DKP? Has nothing to do with Fiends anymore?

[Asheran Mojomaster]

Officers always seem to catch crap for taking a loot. More often than not it isnt because they take more, but because they are higher profile. It is as if members want officers to do all the work in a guild and not even get an equal share of the loot.

If the Fiends officers had taken every single loot that last night in time I wouldn't see a problem with it if they had a dkp system. The basis of the system is being rewarded for what you do and getting whatever item you want once you can afford it. If they had the dkp, let them have everything. All that means is they took nothing for a long ass time.

You have every right to feel that way Spankes, because I know for a fact that while you were in PD, you never took advantage of your position to get extra loot, but if you say that there officers didn't and don't do that, you are just being retarded. Sure there are many guilds where officers either don't, or can't take advantage of their position to get extra loot (pure DKP guilds being one of those cases, as the loot isnt based on a decision, but completely on how much time you have put in, and what you have taken before). But for every guild that has honest officers who don't take advantage of their position, there is one in which they do.

I was in more than one guild such as this, Royals, PD, Seekers of Lore (back in the day with Oreale, but there wasn't much loot to be had there anyway, it just happened to be that Oreale got every bit of loot there was), and it was hell, it pissed me off to no end when it happened, and even now long after I have quit, I get a bit angry when I think back to how some of the officers from those guilds took advantage of their guild for their own gain.

Again, you and I both know you weren't one of these people, but the ones who did do it know exactly who they are.

[Drinsic Darkwood]

From my point of view DKP is a reward mostly for the *time* an individual contributes. Wether that person is pressing 2 buttons or 4 buttons is pretty insignificant in comparison IMO.

I personally ( just my opinion ) don't agree with DKP being a time-based reward. I think of it more as an effort-based reward. When you're giving dkp based on time intervals, there's not much to promote efficiency. I mean, of course, naturally people should desire to be efficient and want to progress asap. However, I've a friend on another server whose guild does time-based logs, and they have members that will often just dick around on some late/early raids to intentionally drag the raid on for additional dkp logs.

We used a set dkp value on specific raids that ( for the most part ) was somewhere along the lines of the total yield in item-dkp. ie total earned by the guild is somewhere around the total spent. When you have a set value for one raid no matter how long it really takes, it promotes speed. Logically, the more raids you do in a given time, the more dkp you're going to get. But, that's just an opinion.

Rewarding an individual with twice the DKP for the same amount of time is retarded IMO but if people that joined Fiends were aware of it and accepted it then they have no reason to bitch about it now.

Well, take a look at this thread and notice just about everyone that's bitching is not or never was a member of Fiends . I'm sure we had people that didn't agree with our system but you can always find people to disagree with anything.

However, as it's been said, the DKP system had no hand in Fiends' end. When people are burnt out, they're burnt out. But uh, feel free to continue discussing our system if that's your thing.

[VariaVespasa]

Taking it to PM's, for my part.

*Hugs*
Varia

[Forthe]

From my point of view DKP is a reward mostly for the *time* an individual contributes. Wether that person is pressing 2 buttons or 4 buttons is pretty insignificant in comparison IMO.

I personally ( just my opinion ) don't agree with DKP being a time-based reward. I think of it more as an effort-based reward. When you're giving dkp based on time intervals, there's not much to promote efficiency. I mean, of course, naturally people should desire to be efficient and want to progress asap. However, I've a friend on another server whose guild does time-based logs, and they have members that will often just dick around on some late/early raids to intentionally drag the raid on for additional dkp logs.

We used a set dkp value on specific raids that ( for the most part ) was somewhere along the lines of the total yield in item-dkp. ie total earned by the guild is somewhere around the total spent. When you have a set value for one raid no matter how long it really takes, it promotes speed. Logically, the more raids you do in a given time, the more dkp you're going to get. But, that's just an opinion.

I meant time in general, not dkp per unit of time.

[Sylvos]

DKP is lame

[Saleren]

Dude, boo, too bad you missed out on most of our progression, you were, and always will be, one of the coolest people I had met in EQ. Keep in touch bro, and hit up the boards.

On a side note, from a person in Fiends having 0 alts, I had no problem with the alts getting loot with a penalty.

How I think of it is, dkp goes to the toons, not the person.. If a character is used often, it should have the gear so it will be utilized. If Cleric_05 has a M-F nightjob, he won't be able to raid much.. but if his toon is practically permaboxed by other guildies, he should be getting some gear to stay on par with the other clerics, since he's used so much.

Sadly, I know more about that than you realize. I had played a cleric during fiends raids almost as much as my main; I still haven't done some encounters in EQ on my ranger to this day

[Jekasurae]

what can ya say, we loved to hate others and that like brought us together. we fucking owned though thats for sure.

Fiends guild was like doing a line, then going to a party. at first your like wow this is fucking awsome! but after the rush wears offf. and there is no more party, its like hanging around with a bunch of hung over people in a small room.

yeah...Izure owns too, biatches

[Coraz]

Coraz (Trial Officer): Never made officer... HAHA. (lucky bastard).

The two guilds worked well together and could clearly be a stronger force for the merger. To this day I still applaud them for taking the option that allowed them to get to where they are in progression as fast as it did.

I still don't recognize them as 1 giant zer -- I mean 1 guild.

Wasn't Ibzan Supperdave?

haehahehahehae - Almost as REVILED as the APOSTATE CONSPIRACY is the seekerit that Ibzan is SupperdavE!!!1 halp

As for him being consistent: Does your definition of consistency consist of 'falling asleep' through every phase 1?

i would question the design of a DKP system that allows for an alt to loot ahead of contributing members.

True but the whole 'got us by the balls' thing came into play here. The few people that were critical on raids would just quit if their alts couldn't get loot. -- Back in they day we were born on boxing each other, and in early fiends you could box people for dkp. (Hence me being in the evil boxing triad ~ dun dun dun inspector suppin) People wouldn't accept a monumental change to the dkp system. All in all, you people don't understand the thing about alt dkp. We come from two different worlds. Also, boxing each other and having a loot aquiring alt are two different issues. I was merely stating an example of precedent.

Monks refusing to pull in the middle of phase2 Time because officers penalized their alts 1/100th of a DKP point for spamming guildchat with caps for no reason other than to push the officer's buttons. *repeats his mantra.. calms down*

Here is an example of the 'by the balls.' Some dick does something unacceptable and our raid shuts down because our whopping 2 - 3 pullers all go on strike to wave their teeny weeny e-peenies around.

...and I can honestly say that if I had came back to EQ at any time after I quit, Fiends would be the only guild I would even CONSIDER joining.

Rellix succumbed to the overmind ))):

DKP for 2 boxed characters is stupid. If people don't 2 box to make a raid happen, you just don't raid.

.................................................................................... dot dot dot

Whatever happened to selflessless and helping your guild? So you won't box your alt to help your guild if it won't garner it any DKP? Sounds quite contrary to the concept of a "guild". If you need to bait people to 2- or 3-box to help the guild progress by giving them dkp, you have the wrong kind of people for a "guild". Go to stormhammer if you are looking purely for "loot".

Welcome to capitalism, you international socialist! Also, the sefless people were the officers with 300 dkp and 3 loots over 8 months. Well, I take that back. Usually they didn't take loot because 6872068578068e10^82 people would whine if an officer took loot so they passed. Everyone was in it for teh phat loots and anyone who says otherwise is lying. Thank God you weren't dictating policies for our guild!

It is no secret that some members were merely in the guild to get what they could out of us. Lots felt the items they recieved were owed to them, so they were never all that grateful when they got them.

Around the 2nd age of Fiends (post jody? post dyeing pink incident?) Everyone decided that merely being in <Fiends> meant that they got loot and respect. People didn't seem to have realized that what you put in, you get out. 30% raid attendance people with 97673087985 dkp stored from not getting loot in 5 months took loot because our lax set of rules allowed them to exploit our guild. We couldn't boot them - all their friends go with them. We couldn't deal with them, their <Fiends> tag filled their heads with jibberish and made them think that they deserved everything for nothing. We let them have their way. At least it let us get by just a little bit longer.

Unless someone stirred up a shitstorm, you kept it.

Like that time Ibzan fell asleep and got p1-3 dkp ~~~

So ya fly through everything dont have the time to make a firm core...

A firm core of what? The whole 2 english speaking people looking for a guild on veeshan? We were about to sell guild funds to pay mexicans 25 cents an hour to play CH rot clerics. Come on mang. Everyone knows PD and FS recruited all clerics. Once the overmind has them, it's nearly impossible to bring them back to normalcy.

Yeah, our dkp system was liked with like a majority of the people. I had problems with people getting boxed and still getting DKP, but I spoke up, and I was a factor in getting those rules changed. The system was a good system imo, but it wasn't the reason we folded, or died or whatever.

This one time at band camp.. err I mean..

This one time at Sol Ro, Suppin was sending tells to Pavlov and when he wouldn't give him his phone number, he concluded that I was boxing Pavlov. -- ........ -- So anyways he asks me, and I say, as a joke, yes. Pavlov, who is on voice chat with me, and I decide to send him weird tells to make it look like I'm boxing him. Suppin screenshots me saying I was boxing him as proof that I was boxing him. Hence, inspector suppin was born. He mysteriously got to be in charge of the NEW BOXED DKP POLICY so he removed me from the raid and it took like 5 days to get my dkp back ))))^: I'll get you next time, Suppin! Bwahahahaha.

DOH!!! You bastards. Just when I've managed to work out the kinks in RL and was ready to come back and y'all break up on me.

It was also the day Quistiis decided to come back from a random, 2 month AWOL.

u git pwnd boo )): -- Haha yeah tarachi had like -50000 dkp )): he was teh ownzer. Despite his .. controversy? He was a very good member. (take that clatis hahehahe).

So it was all golden. (course I'm one of thos alt looters!~)

Grats Ironloot -180 dkp or something!@!@!!!!!11

Innoruuk dropped the Rare dagger Jagged Timeforged Blade
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22530

The dagger was awarded to an ALT.

The alt was an alt of an officer.

The officer is the GF of the GL.
http://www.fiendsguild.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3531

Appears to be debated because it was brought up!

Yes but so far no one with any say in the matter has brought it up. ;p

Great work Drinsic, you've managed to show your minority position as a defining element against my statement. How about the REST of them...I can gaurantee you that most of the non two-boxers have or have had ill feelings about the whole deal.

Great work Menelaos, I'm having a hard time figuring out what your point is! I single boxed, and was not bothered by alts. Compared to everything else going on alts getting loot isn't such a large issue. I mean, Ibzan got My/Korell's time's antithesis with 462989 more dkp. He's a boxed alt. We didn't whine (but that's because we're 2 of a few 'better' fiends members that are above such atrocious behavior). I dislike Ibzan because most of the time he's starting in the corner and people are sending me tells, "buff me Ibzan is ignoring me." We all have those moments when we 'fall asleep' and play Plasystation2 on time raids. But that could be untrue. What do I know? A lot more than you at least!

Or how about a warrior with 5k hps unbuffed try to offtank a mob that quads for 1k+? It can be done, but if the alts are as well equipped as mains to begin with, you never run into that problem.

Jabber?

How I miss my Boo

How I miss Omjafghfsdfsd

How I miss OMGILuvUFiends ))):
How I miss Fiendswipetobert, and all the other stupid level 1 make fun of fiends chars ): Where was the Quarmownsu and Halphalpinnoruuk????

I am of the firm belief that 2 boxers or anybody who plays more than one character is not playing their primary to their fullest ability.

Fortunately for the boxers, half of fiends operated under 50% of their ability! So, theoretically, 2 boxers that weren't afgay could easily operate better.

Leader dkp- I've been gaming for a looong time now, first on MUDs, then on EQ, and I've seen the amount of stress, grief, crap, and general cat-blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

...... Really?!?! Our leader gave himself -180dkp so people would stop whining. Didn't work though. There is no incentive to lead. I'm amazed any guild remains standing.

As far as officer rewards goes... haelp haelp officer corruption.

HLEP!!!

You two-box because you enjoy it, not because it is in any way required. If we were to award dkp to alts what happens when the raid limit is maxed out at 54 and we tell your alt to gtfo? Right now you complain and do it, but at least you don't feel you're losing dkp by logging your toy off

Max 54! Quick, log off your ALT THAT IS CRUCIAL TO THE RAID for some main with 25% raid attendence!!

You have every right to feel that way Spankes, because I know for a fact that while you were in PD, you never took advantage of your position to get extra loot...

Grats Trias all lootz AHEHAHEAHEHHAHHEHeeeEeEJekkekekekekekekke ^_^~~

SHIT I ran out of people to quote. THE END!

Some edits for teh spoellang and my big 5 line HALP didn't work because text looks different fit on the screen after you click submit

[MooZilla]

Somebody set them up a bomb.

[Menelaos]

What in god's name are you talking about Corfag? Do have you some penis-envying need to put someone down who never said a bad thing about you before? What has Apostate to do with anything? Grow the hell up, your immature rantings are giving me a headache.

[Coraz]

PS Menefag, I thought you were just confused or something, but now you've proven you're .... oh. Wait, what are you.. ...


........


QAETJU$RTjQW$^@UIQ$E@%UJ56tjhqjarHq54U@^Q$%w



What the fuck!?

No it's *YOUR* immature rantings that are giving me the headache! 1) You wouldn't know if you don't know about the Apostate conspiracy which leads to 2) If you don't know what I was talking about then stfu.

Except I don't really know what you're talking about. I served myself ):

[Menelaos]

In case you don't know, I'm a member of Cestus Dei, and I _do_ know what you are referring to. I reiterate: what the fuck does that have anything to do with anything posted on this thread? Why do you feel the need to spontaneously put someone down in order to respond to something nobody needed your input on? You're an immature little runt who I'd gladly teach a lesson to if we ever were to meet.

Only thing I've proven myself to be, is someone a whole lot more mature than you, though a slobbering monkey probably would qualify for that, as well.

I await your incoherent reply, and make sure it again is in the writing of a 9 year old prick who has absolutely nothing important to say.

[Pahreyia]

Weren't you in Clan Winter Wolf like 4 days ago Menelaos?

[Coraz]

In case you don't know, I'm a member of Cestus Dei, and I _do_ know what you are referring to. I reiterate: what the fuck does that have anything to do with anything posted on this thread?

What does your post have to do with it? Whining about whiners or something?

Menalaos you seem to post a lot of stupid shit, like that one time on CD's board... oh man.

PS: The conspiracy has nothing to do with you calling Apostate "Hitler."


PS#2: Grats to you being more mature! Did Resurrector tell you to say that?


Awww come on Mene-pause, don't you think I said ANYTHING important in that 500000 word thesis paper of a post I put up there?

Oh, by the way, how are you offended by anything I said? I mean, if you don't want someone to point out the errors in what you post, then don't post it.