The "What happened to Fiends" post

suppin · Post by **suppin** » April 14, 2004, 11:32 pm

heh Tinkin, that wasn't me..Verify all IPs, do whatever... but I wouldn't post something like that.

Anyways, Yeah a lot of things happened to make fiends disband. We had goals that we set out.

Kill emp.

Kill Aten.

Get elemental.

Get to time.

Kill Quarm.

And we did that, we did everything we did, and excelled at it. We had our side fun at the same time by beating pd n shit in like every aspect of the game. Yeah, flame me, but you know it's true~~

I'm sad to see it go, I had a blast, and I've already said a lot of things on the members board but i'm gonna say it here also. I really enjoyed what Vannor and the rest of the officers did for the guild. It was a blast.

I've grown so much as a player from Fiends, and I always can look back at everything I learned, and feel great about it... My gear, my flags, everything i've gotten was incredible... but the playing with that team of people was the best reward.

now onto this....Rumors? Hiddin Truths? My Post?

Yeah, what I posted on the boards (public and private) got me banned there. (Since then, I've forgiven Vannor.. yeah I do..) and I'm back on the site saying my good byes and giving my thanks etc)

What my post said, was what basically happened to the guild from the inside..I posted a screenshot of vannor's secret trader .. and I made retalitation to vannor because of what he did to me.

That was it, no big deal.. but I got tells about it from ppl that saw it, and people here asking about it, yeah that was it.. What really happened? We just got tired. People stopped logging in, and people got tired of GoD.

but Honestly what much can you do when Elemental gear and drops are rotting.. and all you have left is Time and GoD? A lot of people didn't want to work for GoD, and would only log on for Time etc etc... it sucked... we were slowly dying each day.

A bunch of the hardcore people were still there, doing GoD... we were up to the ikk raids before we fell..The time sinks of the trials and the shit you do for the raids made a lot of people upset, so they kinda gave up, ... we all did for the most part.

There is not one single reason for why Fiends died.

We all had a hand in it. It was the spirit of the guild that fell, which in reality happens with everyone someday.

But, we were strong once. I had the most fun I've had in a long time with Fiends. But it's over, and a lot of us are moving on with RL, and other obligations that we all have.

Last day of the guild? there were things said in the guild that made people question a bunch of things. shit was being said and people just jumped over board basically, realizing that the guild was gone... it was a sad day =/

The time raid? Yeah, needol got 4 loots three nights ago. A lot of people didn't like it, or understand it, but she had the DKP... it was her items, she's passed on other things before.. EoE, JTB, Pouch from RZ and Cloak of Retribution. DKP is what Fiends was about, and she had the most. Can't argue the DKP issue. But was it right? eh, imo no... I don't think it was right, but everyone has their own opinions.

Think what you will about all this, about how much "Fiends sux0rs" or what not, but the members had fun, and we all got to time, and beat our goals.. (quarm, and everything else).. so it's whatever.. hehe, I'll always look back on Fiends as one of the best guilds veeshan ever has had.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » April 14, 2004, 11:35 pm

I look back on it as part of the reason I retired.

I can't say I'm sorry, can't say that I feel "vindicated" for it. I am surprised it took almost a year. Drinsic and co held it together better than I thought possible, so.

Bye Fiends.

Coraz · Post by **Coraz** » April 14, 2004, 11:51 pm

Resurrector wrote:Rumor on the street is that Vannor and the other Fiends guild officers gave their entire guild a serious ass fucking by giving all the drops from their last time raid to officers only and the officers personal friends (i.e. Vannors girlfriends alt got a time blade).

To make this more interesting Vannor has been selling items in game for the last year or so. Most, if not all of the guild officers were in on it.

Kinda sad but then again what do you expect from a bunch of children.

Oh well, easy come, easy go.

Resurrector (Veeshan)
Retired

Leave it to our arch nemesis PD/FS to start zee drama with bullshit ~~ We don't 'give' people items numbnuts, everyone that had loot got loot because they had the DKP earned for it.

Res sounds like Eudas in that post, haha.

Saleren · Post by **Saleren** » April 15, 2004, 12:02 am

I don't usually get involved in VV threads, but I'd like to set a few things straight, because if there's one thing I hate, its people running away with rumors and generalizations.

I can only speak for myself honestly, but I've never PA'd anything in my life; I've never purposefully broke any guild rules while distro'ing loot; And I'm quite certain I never did anything to "screw" anyone. I'm pretty sure anyone you ask from Fiends would vouche for me.

TBH, I was ready to leave Fiends/EQ for a while now. Needed some time to get back to real life.

To any that knew me in game, i'll miss you. Maybe I'll become like everyone else and troll VV to bitch about all the in-game drama. =p

Saleren~Joe

P.S. Vannor, regardless of what anyone has or will say about him, is a great guy, and it was an honor being in Fiends with him. So uhh, if anyone has beef... fuckoff~

Clatis · Post by **Clatis** » April 15, 2004, 2:05 am

Yeah, Fiends was a great guild, Paul was great leader, officers were awesome, members were awesome, I'll never forget anyone in the guild and the memmories we made.

Fiends is just at it's end, that's all you can say.

Tinkin Tankem · Post by **Tinkin Tankem** » April 15, 2004, 2:35 am

Who is Hemlak?...

Korell · Post by **Korell** » April 15, 2004, 2:56 am

Quick run down here kiddies...

Vannor (GL): Leaving for RL reasons (sickness/lack of money)
Ginaa (Officer): Read above.
Saleren (Officer): Quitting for RL.
Drinsic (Officer): Not sure, just wasn't on 24/7 at the end.
Markulas (Officer): Retired around a month ago.
Pizoi (Officer): Retired since we hit elementals.
Oogah (Officer): MIA since October(?).
Pruine (Officer): Can't commit 24/7 as leader.
Korell (Officer): Mental breakdown. ^_^
Coraz (Trial Officer): Never made officer... HAHA. (lucky bastard).

Thats why the guild no longer exists. No leadership. No guild.
~

Paul never hid the fact that he was skimming off the top. Haelp. The guy that lead us from SSRA to the end of Time in 8months(?) took some money. Most of which, no one needed/wanted. Really, EQ plat doesn't translate into much money. Its not like this is some Enron scandal. This isn't why the guild broke up, since its been going on for awhile. The guild has given people better gear than they could have bought with any amount of plat, sometimes logging them in and looting it for them.

The main thing that lead to the guild's demise IMO, was that officers allowed people to get away with murder. Skipping raids while they were online because they didn't feel like it, openly opposing officers as a means to test their resolve, and ultimately refusing to do as instructed. Like a bunch of children, if you don't enforce rules, they are going to run wild. This behavior lead up to the point of all officers getting tired of holding shit together and leaving the guild. Those that didn't want to listen should have been replaced. Those that didn't want to progress should have been slowly pushed to the side and eventually booted once they were replaced. The problem here is that having so many good guilds on our server, it was harder to replace people. So.. we ignored the problem, and eventually it ate away at the guild's core until there was nothing left.

Vannor is/was a good leader asside from some choice moments, but we are all human and mistakes will happen.

Also, we ran out of people calling us worthless and trash. Thats really what fueled the hatred inside Fiends from the time we were created. Many said we wouldn't make it past Emp (and I don't mean Crushbone), so you can all suck my disease infested swollen left testicle.
~

P.S. Hemlak is some shaman stalking me... HAELP.

Hemlak · Post by **Hemlak** » April 15, 2004, 3:04 am

I was in Primus Exodus at the time Fiends was created. We didn't have any good encounters with Fiends at this time. It took a while, but I got bored of EQ around June of Last year. Tarachi knows me well.

As for what Korell said, it seems like They were their own undoing. Recruiting all the rejects of Veeshan, notwithstanding a few good apples, and not really caring about the drama that came with them.

May we all learn from Fiends' mistake.

R.I.P. Fiends. They may not have been the most popular guild on the server, but definetly one driven by the ambition of it's core members.

Nilaman · Post by **Nilaman** » April 15, 2004, 3:14 am

That has to be one of the worst magelo profiles I have ever seen. Are you proud of this? I mean, I imagine you are since you feel the need to show it off.

But in someone's Nightmare (as it truly needs to be capitalized) someone wearing crystal spider eyes would be pretty scary I guess.

Edit: You god damn newbie you edited your whole freaking post. Go drink nail polish remover.

Hemlak · Post by **Hemlak** » April 15, 2004, 3:15 am

Nilaman wrote:That has to be one of the worst magelo profiles I have ever seen. Are you proud of this? I mean, I imagine you are since you feel the need to show it off.

But in someone's Nightmare (as it truly needs to be capitalized) someone wearing crystal spider eyes would be pretty scary I guess.

Whatever gives you wood.

Edit: =p

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » April 15, 2004, 4:24 am

For what it is worth, I liked Fiends. Had a lot of respect for them as well. Always considered them one of the better guilds on Veeshan. For my part, they will be missed.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » April 15, 2004, 10:40 am

Hemlak wrote:I was in Primus Exodus at the time Fiends was created. We didn't have any good encounters with Fiends at this time. It took a while, but I got bored of EQ around June of Last year. Tarachi knows me well.

Fiends was created in August of last year. While I was in PE with you the only real interaction we had with Fiends was an Emp race and a couple(?) VT races and then they were gone. Most of the talk at the time was centered around the remainants of Valhall, some CT/PD and Farstorm people creating a guild and backtracking content through Ssra/VT. Fiends moved through those within about a month. By the time I joined in September, Fiends was done with VT altogether. In fact, the last VT run was a 2am-7am clearing and I even picked up a rot loot as a trial. Fiends had clearly progressed past the point where VT could help them.

Shortly after that point Fiends was in contention with FS and PD in content and encounters. PD had been in Elementals for probably 1-2 months at the time and Farstorm was early in PoP content but still farming VT on a fairly regular, albeit waning, basis. Around this point Fiends' reputation on the server with other elemental level+ guilds was improving and we had backflag agreements with FoH/CD/CoE/Sovereign. I can recall backflagging a fair amount of Sovereign people, which made for a very comfortable relationship between our guild and their's. I also think that this is part of what led to PD and Farstorm choosing to merge into Kratos.

The two guilds worked well together and could clearly be a stronger force for the merger. To this day I still applaud them for taking the option that allowed them to get to where they are in progression as fast as it did.

Sorry for the brief history lesson but I'm in a wordy mood at the moment and felt like clarifying Hemlak's statement versus Aaeamdar's.

As for what Korell said, it seems like They were their own undoing. Recruiting all the rejects of Veeshan, notwithstanding a few good apples, and not really caring about the drama that came with them.

For what it's worth, some of those 'rejects of Veeshan' were some of the best, most skilled and fun people to be in a guild with. Sure, a lot of peple in Fiends brought the drama with the rukkus, but I'd guild/group up with just about any person from Fiends any time and never think twice about it.

People like Ibzan were some of the most consistant and professional raiding members I've ever seen. There's not a guild out there that wouldn't take some of those "rejects" for the fact alone that their raid attendance and utility would compete with the top people in their own guilds.

I would challenge you to find a guild that didn't have it's share of drama queens. We had them a-plenty in Fiends, but we also had some of the best players on Veeshan and when push came to shove we walked away with loots when a lot of other guilds would have gone home whipped and crying.

Our shoe was best.

May we all learn from Fiends' mistake.

R.I.P. Fiends. They may not have been the most popular guild on the server, but definetly one driven by the ambition of it's core members.

I don't know that there's a mistake to learn from. It was a focused guild and after we cleared PoTime, that was it for a lot of members. Some of Fiends' people have been playing since 1999/2000 and to be honest the game's radically different from the one I started playing in December of 2000. EQ's probably losing more people at this time than it's gaining. GoD certainly isn't the saving grace of the high end game right now. What I've experienced of it is about as fun as ripping your toenails out with the help of bamboo splinters and tack hammers.

And you're right. What Fiends lacked in longitevity they certainly made up for in ambition and raiding professionalism.

Psyloche · Post by **Psyloche** » April 15, 2004, 10:46 am

Wasn't Ibzan Supperdave?

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » April 15, 2004, 10:55 am

GoD certainly isn't the saving grace of the high end game right now. What I've experienced of it is about as fun as ripping your toenails out with the help of bamboo splinters and tack hammers.

Haha, so true!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » April 15, 2004, 11:03 am

i would question the design of a DKP system that allows for an alt to loot ahead of contributing members.

Drolgin Steingrinder · April 15, 2004, 11:08 am

Paul never hid the fact that he was skimming off the top.

It's news to George, John and Ringo!

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » April 15, 2004, 11:40 am

Psyloche wrote:Wasn't Ibzan Supperdave?

Yes. I was using him as an example to counter Hemlak's statement. Ibzan was one of the most skilled and consistant raiders Fiends had. Regardless of his extremely poor typing skill and prior bad acts, he was a fun guy to raid with and a real asset to the guild.

Voro wrote:i would question the design of a DKP system that allows for an alt to loot ahead of contributing members.

It's a difficult question for any guild to address. Basically, if you have a person who consistantly 2 boxes and is present for most raids with both toons, how right is it to tell them to pick one and let the other one fall to the sub-geared wayside?

Each guild handles it differently, but Fiends had a core of consistant 2-box players, and it was determined that for people who 2box all the time, some consideration would be given towards letting them gear their characters in line with the rest of the guild.

In respect to Needol's ability to loot 3 or 4 time items that night: Most Fiends raids averaged around .35 DKP for elemental and 1.0-1.2 DKP for PoTime targets. Most of the Rogues were sitting on 10-30 DKP and Needol had accumulated nearly, if not over 200 DKP. There was little in the way of argument regarding awards to an alt based on pure DKP. The underlying issue of giving first drops to Alts, especially ones who are probably on PA right now is another issue.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » April 15, 2004, 11:40 am

Yep, Ibzan was Supperdave, according to SoEs name change boards. Imo 1 good reason not to invite him, but to each his own, cant say that he wasnt a good raider, but his reputation in other areas would severely damage his chances to join a guild imo

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » April 15, 2004, 11:58 am

Voronwë wrote:i would question the design of a DKP system that allows for an alt to loot ahead of contributing members.

I agree, alt's shouldn't have had that kind of priveledge.

Clatis · Post by **Clatis** » April 15, 2004, 12:12 pm

Hesten wrote:Yep, Ibzan was Supperdave, according to SoEs name change boards. Imo 1 good reason not to invite him, but to each his own, cant say that he wasnt a good raider, but his reputation in other areas would severely damage his chances to join a guild imo

He shouldn't have a damn problem getting into any guild, wtf are you talkin about? I don't even know who you are bitch.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » April 15, 2004, 12:24 pm

Hi Clatis.

Here's what Hesten is referring to.

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1562

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1582

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1574

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1577

The first one pretty much sums it up, the others are for the sake of being complete with the Supperdave quadrilogy.

I do agree that he's a great player and would probably have no problems getting into any guild except CD (because of his prior acts relating to CD members) on his skill alone.

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » April 15, 2004, 2:22 pm

I haven't played EQ since not too long after Fiends formed (I think my last raid ever, I went with them to kill Mith Marr), but I was good friends with many of the members in Fiends and even kept up on their progess with Chip (Clatis) most of the time...and I can honestly say that if I had came back to EQ at any time after I quit, Fiends would be the only guild I would even CONSIDER joining. The only hardcore guild that is. Fiends had amazing players and an amazing leader (Daboohk, much

). I wish all of them luck in whatever they go on to do.

Oh yeah, Coraz, do you have AIM? If so, PM me your SN bitch.

suppin · Post by **suppin** » April 15, 2004, 4:11 pm

lol me and tarachi hated eachother so much before fiends... but i'm really glad you joined us tara...

u now

our Tipt groups fucking rocked right? lololol I could feel you crying through the screen... either crying or ripping your computer chair apart and throwing it out the window~

was much fun playing with you..

Tarachi wrote:For what it's worth, some of those 'rejects of Veeshan' were some of the best, most skilled and fun people to be in a guild with. Sure, a lot of peple in Fiends brought the drama with the rukkus, but I'd guild/group up with just about any person from Fiends any time and never think twice about it.

Yeah, I agree with that we had a great bunch of players.. always did what we had to do to win...

Taly · Post by **Taly** » April 15, 2004, 4:19 pm

So it is true Daboohk = Vannor?

Yeah slam me if im behind just kept hearing rumors it was. just looking for truth to it.

suppin · Post by **suppin** » April 15, 2004, 4:19 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:
Voronwë wrote:i would question the design of a DKP system that allows for an alt to loot ahead of contributing members.
I agree, alt's shouldn't have had that kind of priveledge.

Fiends was built on two-boxing. I, myself boxed players every raid up until elementals. With low numbers, and the DRIVE to beat the japs, or PE, or PD, FS.. for Vex Thal, we did what we had to do.. boxed when we needed it...

We couldn't sit around and bitch about our low numbers, so we did what was needed... Ibzan and Izure are one of the best eq players i've ever met. And everyone in Fiends knew that. You can't even tell it's two people playing with the ammount of skill and dedication that that player has. We considered him not having an alt, but another main, in EVERY aspect of the words.

For the other people with alts?... needol? I'm not gonna really say anything about that.. other than I didn't believe that was fair, simply because not aware 100% like Izure/Ibzan..

to clear it up, alts hardly took loot over a main, unless they really had like 50dkp over someone (raids were worth .3-1dkp etc) when it happened, we all generally felt it was deserved.

Toall · Post by **Toall** » April 15, 2004, 5:01 pm

just would like to say.. GL to all of you... OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of my friends left and wet to start up Fiends. To wach your progresion was awsome... i just dont play enough to party with you all... i am sorry to see you all brake up like that.... to my friends, you know how to find me when i am on...

just have fun...

Badabidi · Post by **Badabidi** » April 15, 2004, 5:34 pm

Taly wrote:So it is true Daboohk = Vannor?

Yeah slam me if im behind just kept hearing rumors it was. just looking for truth to it.

No it's false, Daboohk went to northern Canada to live in an igloo with his family while his cousin ran Vannor and took over his identity/reputation

Korell · Post by **Korell** » April 15, 2004, 5:37 pm

Well, what ties in with the downfall of the guild is the lack of clearly defined public rules. Actually something I spent a good portion of my time as an officer on, sorting thru what policies we had and those that we wanted to make. Alts had a 5DKP penalty when being considered for loot (originally created during our SSRA era when loots were around 3.5DKP-6DKP. We were in the process of increasing this to 10, which was still a bit low IMO as loots were from 15-50DKP. Anyway, Fiends always relied heavily on people boxing in multiple chars. Markulas spent the greater portion of his time boxing in two clerics. Before Korell was 65, I spent a lot of time boxing in clerics and bards. So, we geared those boxed chars, and had to set policies that allowed us to. Once we filled out in numbers more (did we ever?) we should have reviewed the policies and made adjustments.. but changing rules and policies wasn't something most officers wanted to do. That, and many of our members were soo used to being allowed to get away with any and everything that when rules were enforced, they rioted. Monks refusing to pull in the middle of phase2 Time because officers penalized their alts 1/100th of a DKP point for spamming guildchat with caps for no reason other than to push the officer's buttons. *repeats his mantra.. calms down*

Fiends was never big on rules or guild stability. We focused solely on progression thru EQ. We reached the end of what many considered EQ. Some officers left, others don't feel like picking up the remnants and patching them together. That is the end of Fiends. I know you guys want to dramatize this, VV threads are better than TV most of the time, but if you do so, it won't be telling the real story of the demise of Fiends. We ended for the most part without drama asside from Vannor spending some of his accumulated DKP.

devereaux · Post by **devereaux** » April 15, 2004, 7:17 pm

DKP for 2 boxed characters is stupid. If people don't 2 box to make a raid happen, you just don't raid. As out of the loop as I am with EQ, it's still gotten back to me that Fiends was unfair and partial with DKP. I can only imagine trying to get people to do things unselfishly like flagging each other over and over again for newer content, when members believe that the officer corps is only in it for themselves. You'd have an easier time hatching a dinosaur egg.

I, like a majority of people who doubted that Fiends would last this long, am not surprised at the foment of dissension with Gates of Discord. The advantage that a lot of the older guilds have over the newer guilds is history. As you start replacing OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of the older veterans in a guild or form a new guilds, there's really nothing you can fall back on to quell the unpleasantness of a new expansion unless you can convey to your members that it's just a growing pain. There was a time when all it would take to get people to want to progress was an update on FOH's frontpage. At this stage in the game however, you have to find more creative ways to motivate your members, fairness being included among them.

Tinkin Tankem · Post by **Tinkin Tankem** » April 15, 2004, 9:54 pm

What you and others may not understand and it has been previously stated. Fiends was built on a large group of multiboxers. There were times that there would literally be 20 actual people playing and we'd have 40+ chars. The fact that boxed chars got dkp and loots was a stated part of this guild. When you take these people and use them to progress then someday you just decide ok, no more dkp for alts~ What are they going to do? Some of them may decide to keep playing there alts along with mains and just take rot loots. Some of them may keep playing there main and drop the alt. Lastly some of these people may just drop there main and say that there alt is now there main. This may look ok but when you have a core force of people that box alts and your average attendance to raids is around 45-50... well that number may drop down to 35-40. Sorry guys we can't raid today cause we don't have the force for XX mob or XX ring but you know what alts can't cock you on loot anymore so you win

See the flaw in the problem is that it looks good on paper and doesn't pan out when you put it into the actual equation... sorry : ( Furthermore I'd like to restate that this was common place in the guild, sorry if you don't like it gtfo.

As for the oo soo greedy officers that we had. The self richeous self absorbed sons of bitches that they are. The only reason that Vannor, Ginaa, Needol, and Drinsic had the dkp that they did to buy items is because they were passing again and again on items for other charectors that were more needy. I mean prior to this hardly a one of them had taken an item in time. The earring that Drinsic took was his first item he had purchased in time and yet he still had like 300dkp while most of us were sitting somewhere around 50ish. For reference basically a P4 loot was 30dkp, P5 was 40dkp and quarm was 50. So it wouldn't have been that he was just trying to stay on top so he didn't lose the first Quarm hammer. Vannor, Ginaa, and Needol were in the same boat for the most part. Needol passed on something around 5 DoDs, Vannor passed on lots of plate loot, taking only a HoHV and plate bp prior to the night in question. The bp would have gone to another cleric or else I'm sure he would have passed to a warrior, such as he did to Chewbark for our first bp.

To wrap this up I'd like to say that if people were bitching about how Fiends worked they should have tried to do something about it or left, they could have pushed for change, they could have played more, they could have made better loot choices, or they could have left. Nobody begged them to stay and deal with our dkp and biast <straight dkp> awards. Referring to GoD and the people that were flagged. All I am going to say is this. With a roster of 70 or so people we flagged around 60 of them. I can guarentee you that none of the people that are not flagged for Kod'Taz never had the chance to get flagged or were never in a tipt/vxed group. Vannor and Ginaa along with others had done countless expeditions. People just couldn't handle the fact that GoD is assbeat hard for a guild of people that are mostly ele equipped.

Tinkin Da'Fiend

p.s. my apologies if that's confusing to anyone...

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » April 15, 2004, 11:23 pm

jabisher wrote:A lot of things contributed to the downfall of fiends, but perhaps the straw that broke the camels back was when they found out their guild leader was skimming plat off the guild banker to sell on PA so he could afford his bills, instead of getting a job like the rest of us.

First off, don't post anon you hoser...Second, the plat skimming was not news, it's rather irrelevant.

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » April 15, 2004, 11:45 pm

Taly wrote:So it is true Daboohk = Vannor?

Yeah slam me if im behind just kept hearing rumors it was. just looking for truth to it.

Yes, and for some periods of time Daboohk = Vannor = Luggz = Ginaa = Needol
Paul was/is a great guy, so many of the members were outstanding players...best of luck to them wherever they're headed.

Menelaos · Post by **Menelaos** » April 16, 2004, 12:21 am

Whatever happened to selflessless and helping your guild? So you won't box your alt to help your guild if it won't garner it any DKP? Sounds quite contrary to the concept of a "guild". If you need to bait people to 2- or 3-box to help the guild progress by giving them dkp, you have the wrong kind of people for a "guild". Go to stormhammer if you are looking purely for "loot".

As a side note, I probably have no right to even post on this subject, given that I retired from Cestus right about the time Fiends was formed. I just felt compelled to point out this serious flaw in your guild makeup. According to all the facts posted by Fiends members on this thread, people played for themselves, not for the guild. Nice group of people, these.

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » April 16, 2004, 12:44 am

Or you could realize that a 2-boxed alt with virtually no raid gear is somewhat useless in zones where you need high hp/mana/resists in order to simply survive the fight. I don't 2-box and I'm all for giving loot to alts that are *effectively* 2-boxed with *purpose*~

Menelaos · Post by **Menelaos** » April 16, 2004, 2:13 am

Or you could realize the type of bottled-up hurt it generates within the rest of the guild who don't typically two-box. IMO primaries get primary gear, alts get leftovers. Period. Multiple characters getting DKP for a single player? The single player should have gotten one DKP adjustment per raid regardless of how many chars they played. If you want gear for an alt, you pay the same as anybody else. *shrug*

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » April 16, 2004, 2:21 am

Different DKP systems work for different groups of people. As long as the rules are out in the open and people aren't arbitrarily added or deducted points because of some delusional idea of 'fairness' from the leaders, you know what you are going to face.

If you know the rules and you still choose to play under them...there's not much reason to bitch.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » April 16, 2004, 3:42 am

Clatis wrote: He shouldn't have a damn problem getting into any guild, wtf are you talkin about? I don't even know who you are bitch.

How about when he stole 80k pp from Aruman?

Korell · Post by **Korell** » April 16, 2004, 3:52 am

A good number of Fiends were just tired of EQ in general at the end. Many had simply stopped playing because we would do Time once a week, and then officer core would push people to do trials (many many times redo'n the trials to flag 1 or 2 people). Elementals? Silk was near rot, leather was rot (grats Slash), chain was definetly rot, and plate.. well, ok. Farming elementals was pretty pointless since almost the whole guild that actively raided was completely geared. I am not trying to boast, just pointing out the fact that we were running out of events in PoPower to do. The only time we bothered was when we absolutely had nothing better to do, and people were willing. So, we pushed GoDiscord trials on people. We started doing Kodtaz while waiting for the rest to finish gearing up, but a lot just had the attitude of "screw GoD".

It is no secret that some members were merely in the guild to get what they could out of us. Lots felt the items they recieved were owed to them, so they were never all that grateful when they got them.

Alts. We had a good number of efficient alts that were played very well. Xanastik played his cleric, Kyloni played his cleric, Izure played his shm, Daerkon played his wizard, Torsion played his beast and I played my rogue. All were very well played. If they weren't played well, officers would say something. There are tons of members with alts, but maybe for some reason they couldn't box well or whatever. Usually these people had incredibly high raid attendance, so their alts were always there as well. Very few instances of an alt taking priority over a main existed. There was really only one alt in my opinion that recieved loot over mains, that then went to waste...

Rules being.. fuzzy? Yeah, some of the rules had somewhat hidden clauses. Well, I shouldn't say hidden because I knew them.. But they were forgotten. It had been so long since anyone enforced any rules, no one knew them. Same with DKP. We also had a terribly inaccurate "missed DKP" system. You posted that you missed DKP, and you got it. Unless someone stirred up a shitstorm, you kept it.

Menelaos wrote:Or you could realize the type of bottled-up hurt it generates within the rest of the guild who don't typically two-box. IMO primaries get primary gear, alts get leftovers. Period. Multiple characters getting DKP for a single player? The single player should have gotten one DKP adjustment per raid regardless of how many chars they played. If you want gear for an alt, you pay the same as anybody else. *shrug*

So, because someone else can't do something.. say work two jobs.. no one else should either? I am all for rewarding those that put forth the extra effort to advance and better the guild, and successfully help. Hey, thanks for boxing in the extra DPS so we could finally beat Bert.. Yeah, its nice to feel good and do something like that, but when the majority of your fellow raiders don't give two shits.. it gets to you. Not to mention again that the majority of our 2boxers were diehard fiends that had insane raid attendance.

Also, with we had a problem with some people joining the guild, snagging some gear, and then jumping ship. Well, I'd rather that gear goto someone I know is going to be around for awhile. In that case, I would want it going to that person.

It really comes down to not having a clearly defined and publically stated ruleset. That way, as Drolgin said, you know what your getting yourself into. You have a ruleset, and you stick to it.

I am ranting thou.. I'll sit back and let you guys enjoy the drama that exists here. I am going to go watch Jay Leno, its more entertaining.. I hate Jay Leno.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » April 16, 2004, 6:16 am

The structure Ive seen from it can not work once the already shaky core is broken... I personally was amazed and applaud that they lasted as long...I think I told Drinsic one night I gave em 4 months, well they goto 7 or 8?. Much better than I exspected.

The whole concept was similar to the formation of CT...except more to the loot driven side then to compete with FoH...wasnt as balanced from what I was seeing...or by some of there early actions. So ya fly through everything dont have the time to make a firm core...Some of the core gets burned out of EQ which one can exspect once hitting Time... and if CoD sucks add em up on burn out...Leaders burned out and ya got = dead guild. Ive been in basically the same guild since 1999 The Oracle 30 members merged into CT left CT back to The oracle with close to 15 of the same peeps then changed name to LoV and lived on same rules since 1999 w/ minor changes. Thats a core that wont break(maybe chip here or there but built onto it faster than it chips) or even a better example FoH....they move together from game to game. My guess is there was never really a firm core were people logged on to be with there guildies or friends, maybe some...... but I bet it was too lop sided to killing this before these guys do, or to get loot to make me UBAH, OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS immature stuff I bet aswell. Cant be like that unless ya the number one dog on server or fighting that number one dog for supremacy...or have amazingly strong motivational leadership, but loss it from burn out and ya dead. Long term Core=Key..maybe fiends can reform under something else build a long term core, but at this stage in game..not really worth it.

Anyways ill stfu now...gluck with whatever ya guys do.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » April 16, 2004, 6:29 am

Whatever happened to selflessless and helping your guild?

That kind of crazy thinking went out of the window long long ago, Mene. The single biggest reason I had for quitting EQ was that it had become a soulless loot-farming treadmill of raid drudgery. Ridiculous raid numbers were part of the problem though. After all, you want everyone to feel equally rewarded for their efforts and rewarding 70+ people is a lot of work. The "what's in it for me?" attitude that became so prevalent wasn't much fun though.

Rambleramble.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » April 16, 2004, 7:38 am

Your right thats a major prob. with EQ in general...its very much based on greed.....all for stupid pixelated items.....There is a way of doing it though....it will be focus related, but you gotta find your nitch that seperates you apart from the others...loot/raiding will always be a major part of any major guild...but what about being virtuous, role playing, evil, assholes, good, friends or brotherhood ect ect ect. Like fiends had kick ass asap basically they did it, but now its done...

What ya have hear is a normal progression of the game...what your leadership decides or can take is the end of the game.....Some going asap..most moving to other games...some slower and will probally move to other games in future...hope its together as a group though.

Anyways for long term you also have to stick to your code....or charter. Hearing some talk about straying off there charter you cant do that on a normal bases, I understand its hard to not stray ever(nothing is perfect), done it here before sometimes to protect charter you have to even actually break charter to protect the same charter...We are making small forms of gov't it wont be perfect...and everyone of your members have to understand theres no guarantee's there should always be a 10% fk up rule or view that everyone should have so people wont go balistic with a mistake or something they find odd....

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » April 16, 2004, 7:49 am

Alts recieving loot before primaries is the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. Regardless of how many toons a person can wield at once, he/she is still ONE player. Any rule system that gives players any sort of advantage for controlling more than one toon is inherently flawed.

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » April 16, 2004, 4:14 pm

Xyun wrote:Any rule system that gives players any sort of advantage for controlling more than one toon is inherently flawed.

As is any rule system that refuses to give loot to alts non-rot loot ( when your guild was originally and has been based on the concept of 2-boxing ), unless of course, attrition is something you need/want.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » April 16, 2004, 4:20 pm

We toyed with the idea quite a bit when developing our dkp system, because we too were built on outstanding players that would 2/3/4 box characters to make things happen. We concluded they did that because they were team players and wanted to win, and that if they wanted to continue winning they'd continue doing what needed to be done.

I'm curious if any successful (read: been around and not looking to fold) system is in existence in EQ that will allow anything other than primaries a loot preference. It just screams of unfairness.

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » April 16, 2004, 4:26 pm

Rekaar. wrote:We toyed with the idea quite a bit when developing our dkp system, because we too were built on outstanding players that would 2/3/4 box characters to make things happen. We concluded they did that because they were team players and wanted to win, and that if they wanted to continue winning they'd continue doing what needed to be done.

I'm curious if any successful (read: been around and not looking to fold) system is in existence in EQ that will allow anything other than primaries a loot preference. It just screams of unfairness.

Our players often would 2/3/4 box clerics, etc. when needed that weren't necessarily their own characters. Those people, of course, would not receive dkp - they weren't being played by the owner. Nor would the owner receive any bonus. When nearly half of our original force was 2-boxed, we concluded that in order to succeed, alts would need loot as well, albeit not the amount mains would receive. What use is a 4000 mana ft2 cleric in a xegony rotation? None. That's correct.

As for successful, I understand the "been around and not looking to fold" part, but our dkp system had little, if any, hand in the fact the guild was at its end. People were just tired of EQ, and there weren't enough left that wanted to keep going through GoD to really make it happen. We figured it was best for everyone and we parted ways. /shrug

Shadfisst · Post by **Shadfisst** » April 16, 2004, 5:06 pm

On the contrary my friend, 9 out of 40 items were received by officers that night.

9 to officers!! 5 to needol!! WOWZER

Korell · Post by **Korell** » April 16, 2004, 5:09 pm

Aye, very little drama came from the guild ending other than many members were left with few options. Fiends didn't make many friends as we mostly were the "rejects" of the server. We did what needed to be done in order to advance our guild, and pulled no punchs. I'd love to debate DKP systems or guild policy.. but not on this thread. Guild ended for the most part peacefully. Was a great run that took me farther in EQ than I had ever planned. I won't soon forget it.

suppin · Post by **suppin** » April 16, 2004, 5:19 pm

Yeah, our dkp system was liked with like a majority of the people. I had problems with people getting boxed and still getting DKP, but I spoke up, and I was a factor in getting those rules changed. The system was a good system imo, but it wasn't the reason we folded, or died or whatever..

Like korell said, a lot were just tired of EQ.. we beat it in our eyes, we accomplished all the goals we set out to do. It was so much fun though

Korell wrote: Was a great run that took me farther in EQ than I had ever planned. I won't soon forget it.

same here buddy~

Korell · Post by **Korell** » April 16, 2004, 5:31 pm

Everyone sensed the guild was coming to an end, and officers in general had the most DKP because basically, raids don't happen without officers being there. So.. Vannor spent DKP on Needol/Ginaa/Vannor. Drinsic bought his FIRST item from PoTime. WOW. Basically, Drinsic did metric shittons for the guild and left with nearly the most DKP, and as one of the poorly equipt rangers.

Boo · Post by **Boo** » April 16, 2004, 6:58 pm

DOH!!! You bastards. Just when I've managed to work out the kinks in RL and was ready to come back and y'all break up on me.

For what it's worth, it had been fun. I've had, for the most part, good times being a part of Fiends. From day one, the ultimate goal was PoTime, and Fiends had never lost its sight -- we were an express train that was practically unstoppable.

Some food for thoughts to the rest of you...

It's obviously easy for a guild made up of superb and dedicated players to progress through and conquer EQ's high-end contents.

Now, try that with a guild made up (according to the lot of you) "rejects" from the server. Not only they managed to progress, they pretty much flowed through the damn thing from what I've seen. That is testament to the dedication and the works put in by Vannor and the officer core -- much kudos to them for that.

My only regrets regarding Fiends was that I wasn't around near the end (thx RL) to help them out before they got access to PoTime, and for that I've always been feeling a bit guilty towards everyone in the guild.

Best of wishes to you guys. As always, take care and have fun.

PS:

Pahreyia wrote:By the time I joined in September, Fiends was done with VT altogether.

Pahreyia joined Fiends? Oh man, I missed that one...

VeeshanVault

The "What happened to Fiends" post

Fiends

What I really want to know...