Labor law and volunteer work clash.

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Chmee
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Labor law and volunteer work clash.

Post by Chmee »

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 60LO91.DTL

An excerpt.
Efforts to restore watershed habitats throughout California, including several in the Bay Area, are threatened because the state is using a largely unknown law to force nonprofit groups to pay prevailing wages to volunteers on their publicly funded projects.

"This serves as a de facto prohibition on volunteerism as perhaps every community project in these dire fiscal times uses some level of volunteer assistance,'' Michael Wellborn, president of the California Watershed Network, wrote in a recent letter to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

The issue came to a boil after the state Department of Industrial Relations, responding to a labor union's complaint, ordered a Redding environmental organization last year to pay $50,000 in fines and back wages for using student volunteers on a publicly funded restoration project. The Sacramento Watersheds Action Group is appealing that ruling.

State officials say they must enforce a provision of the state labor code that legislators expanded in 2001, even though the author of the change says he never intended to limit volunteer work on watersheds. The law requires that all workers on a public works project be paid the prevailing wages for those jobs in that area if even one person is paid for work on the project.

"We're tied by what the law tells us to do,'' said Rick Rice, assistant secretary of the Labor and Workforce Development Agency, which includes the Department of Industrial Relations. In fact, Rice said state officials think volunteers may have to be paid on other kinds of publicly funded programs, including one in which youths build low-income housing.

Pretty silly.
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Post by Asheran Mojomaster »

Doesn't that completely defeat the purpose of volunteering?
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Post by kyoukan »

Yes, but it creates jobs. More specifically: union jobs. I'm sure this law can be traced back to some type of powerful labor union.

This specific law is the one Electronic Arts was just sued over the last couple of years or so in a class action. They lost and had to pay out something in the neighborhood of 1300 bucks each to all the ex "guides" (counselors) from UO who signed up to participate in the suit. This is also why Blizzard won't have a volunteer CS program for Worlds of Warcraft and why EQ2 and other SOE games won't have a volunteer CS program. The only reason SOE hasn't shut their guide program down now is because that is why the UO counselors started their suit in the first place.

It's basically illegal to have volunteer work program in the state of california if you are a for-profit business. There are a lot of reasons for this; like hiring on people who can't get a job anywhere else and forcing them to do part of their job as a "volunteer." It's rather badly written though.
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Post by Zaelath »

The spirit of the law makes sense, it's supposed to be up to the judicial branch to interpret this stuff and point out when you're being an asshole for following the letter of the law.

Remember too, the fine was assessed by a government department.. I seriously doubt the appeals court will uphold the fine.

That said, I think all the volunteer CS stuff shouldn't be allowed.. It harks back to the volunteer "wizard" or "immortal" staff on muds; but they were not for profit. I can understand Verant as a start up using it.. but if SOE brought out new games w/ volunteer employees they would be rightly bashed for it.
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Post by Chmee »

I disagree that volunteers in CS (or other occupations for that matter) should be disallowed. No one is forcing them to volunteer. No one is forcing you to buy the product. For government to dictate this is in my opinion an unacceptable intrusion into people's economic freedom.
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Post by Zaelath »

Chmee wrote:I disagree that volunteers in CS (or other occupations for that matter) should be disallowed. No one is forcing them to volunteer. No one is forcing you to buy the product. For government to dictate this is in my opinion an unacceptable intrusion into people's economic freedom.
I think you disagree w/ everything I say anyway. But, it's part of my economic freedom to employ 10 year olds and pay them for $.50 for each pair of shoes they churn out, as long as I do it off-shore of course.

Oh what, that's silly you say? So is calling working for a multinational conglomerate like Sony for $15/month (or whatever an EQ subscription costs these days) volunteering.

I think I'll just get me a whole big mess of mexicans to volunteer to beautify my farm by pulling out all the weeds! If they happen to want to stay in my sheds on those bunk beds I just happen to have there, why not? Good friends like that, if they want a "loan" of a few dollars now and then, who am I to say no?

Someone with a fucking brain has to make the call on what is fair and reasonable to call volunteer work and what isn't. They're called judges.

We're both welcome to our, albeit pointless, opinions. But I can help but be disgusted every time you express it as being in defense of freedom, are you Donald's love child?
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Post by Chmee »

I express it as being a freedom issue, because it is. If Sony wants to have volunteers do CS work, and I want to volunteer, creating a law that forbids this is restricting our freedom. It should be my decision, not some judges.

Addressing your examples, I also think that the decision of what compensation the mexican farm worker will get is properly made by the farm workers and the farm owner. If they both agree to it freely, then that is their affair. I think we should change the laws to make it easier for people to come into this country to work if they want to. Currently since most have to do so illegally, it reduces their bargaining position. The solution though is not to try to define what is appropriate compensation, but to relax the laws that are putting them at a disadvantage.

Child labor is a little different. There is a logical basis for restricting children from certain activities based on them not being considered competent enough to make decisions on their own until they get older. That being said, restricting it in some cases may not be doing them a favor. I certainly don't like that in poorer countries there are cases that children are working. But the alternative may mean that they, or their family won't have enough food to eat, which is even worse. Am I saying child labor is a good thing? Of course not. I am merely saying the alternatives may be worse in some cases.
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Post by Siji »

kyoukan wrote:and why EQ2 and other SOE games won't have a volunteer CS program. The only reason SOE hasn't shut their guide program down now
Sony (Verant at the time) changed the guide program to no longer 'require' a minimum number of hours put into guiding. It used to be 10 a week, then it turned into a 'desired' 6 a week. But you weren't cut from the program anymore if you didn't put in the 'desired' amount. Thus they don't pay you and apparently get around it being called a job. That and they can always say they pay $12.95 a month in the form of a free account..

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a volunteer guide team in EQ2 as well. Sony surely isn't going to hire more GM's than they currently have for EQ and the guide program, as useless as it seems to players most of the time, helps Sony sift through a lot of players complaints.

What does kind of surprise me is the amount of work required by senior guides (you'd be amazed how much time it takes. I spent a good 20 hours a week minimum doing all the various crap as a senior guide) and them not having to be considered employees. If you don't do the requirements there, you're definitely removed from being a senior guide.

*shrug*
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Post by kyoukan »

Chmee wrote:I express it as being a freedom issue, because it is. If Sony wants to have volunteers do CS work, and I want to volunteer, creating a law that forbids this is restricting our freedom. It should be my decision, not some judges.
Because companies would just convince their paid employees to "volunteer" part of their time or risk getting canned.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Kind of like Southwest's voluntary overtime program...
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Post by Chmee »

kyoukan wrote:
Chmee wrote:I express it as being a freedom issue, because it is. If Sony wants to have volunteers do CS work, and I want to volunteer, creating a law that forbids this is restricting our freedom. It should be my decision, not some judges.
Because companies would just convince their paid employees to "volunteer" part of their time or risk getting canned.
Companies can certainly try, that doesn't mean they will be successful. If the overall compensation isn't acceptable to the employee, they will go elsewhere. If it is acceptable to both parties, then it is none of anybody elses business.
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Post by Forthe »

Chmee wrote:
kyoukan wrote:
Chmee wrote:I express it as being a freedom issue, because it is. If Sony wants to have volunteers do CS work, and I want to volunteer, creating a law that forbids this is restricting our freedom. It should be my decision, not some judges.
Because companies would just convince their paid employees to "volunteer" part of their time or risk getting canned.
Companies can certainly try, that doesn't mean they will be successful. If the overall compensation isn't acceptable to the employee, they will go elsewhere. If it is acceptable to both parties, then it is none of anybody elses business.
IMO your economic views are as unrealistic as those that view socialism as the perfect form of government. Great in the extreme but they do not work IRL. Socialism fails mostly due to human lazyness while your utopian economic views fail due to cheating, lying, collaboration and exploitation.

We do not allow child labor not only because a child does not have the decision making facilities, choosing to work for money isn't a huge mental excercise. We frown on it because the adult in this situation has a clear a definite advantage over the child, in such a situation the child can be coerced to accept a contract which is very unfair.

The same holds true in our corporate world today IMO. When corporations control so much of the economies wealth the average worker is a child in comparitive bargaining power. A person can be persuaded to accept a great many things when they are looking down the barrel of a gun.

Of course you claim the employee can go elsewhere, but that is based on the assumption that corporations will not\are not collaborating on hiring practices or forced by economics to adopt hiring practices of others to remain competitive (ala outsourcing).

I would agree with your ideas in a perfect and balanced world. But when the scales are slanted as far as they are presently I think we need some moderate protections to prevent the developement of a slave state.
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Post by Siji »

I'd like to live in the world that Chmee lives in where an employee can simply snap their fingers and replace their job if they don't like it without a second thought.

Must be a nice place.
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Post by Zaelath »

Apparently Chmee has never known anyone in a semi-skilled or lesser position, like gee, most of the workforce.

People are willing to work for *nothing* for a time with the hope that the employer will see their worth from the pool of faceless masses looking for work and keep them on at a salary they can live on.

There is a nearly inexhaustable pool of people with the current unemployment rate. In short, I can "employ" a run of people in a semi-skilled or labouring position "on trial" for nothing, almost indefinitely. Sure, they have the "freedom" do decide they don't want to work for me, but given you will get hundreds of applicants every time you run the ad...

Hell, if someone is truely exceptional I might even hire them on so that when some jackass complains to the media I can point to him and say, "No, see, I do hire people on, that guy just didn't work out."

I'm not so sure I agree with Siji though, I don't think living with your head up your ass would be so nice.
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Post by kyoukan »

Chmee wrote:Companies can certainly try, that doesn't mean they will be successful. If the overall compensation isn't acceptable to the employee, they will go elsewhere. If it is acceptable to both parties, then it is none of anybody elses business.
what world do you live in?
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Post by Chmee »

Everyone continues to try to say that all or nearly all of the market power is held by the companies, this is incorrect. Yes, people need jobs. But businesses also need employees to function. A wage is just a price. It varies based on supply and demand like all prices do. No, employees can't always instantly change jobs at will, but then neither can companies always instantly hire someone new at will. Market power between company and employee varies over time, by region, by type of employment. In the 90s IT workers in the U.S. generally had a large amount of market power. They have had less since 2000. At no time though did they have all the market power and at no time did the employers have all the power. The original law being discussed wasn't even enacted until 2001, and its only a California law. If this type of thing is so vital then how did we get by without it before then, or in the other states? The average wage in the U.S. is substantially above the minimum wage, why is that? Why are companies paying more than what they absolutely have to if they aren't required to by law and if they have all of the market power that everyone is trying to attribute to them.
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Post by Zaelath »

Ummm because there is a *major* difference between skilled and unskilled labour? Jackass.

Really, your vision will improve greatly if you simply remove your head from your ass and look at the wider world around you.
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