Hamas/Israel assassination

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » March 22, 2004, 12:27 pm

Israeli covert ops target attack on senior Hamas leader.

This sort of thing is done with some frequency by Mossad, and many would argue that it's perfectly justified. But is it really the best idea? Will it really help make the area more peaceful, or will the inevitable retaliation and the creation of a prominent martyr just lead to more bloodhshed than if he had been imprisoned?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 22, 2004, 12:30 pm

I think Israel's characterisation of the guy is correct but I don't see this action helping the situation at all. Probably quite the opposite, certainly in the short term.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 22, 2004, 12:36 pm

If there is any way to dismantle a terrorism infrastructure, Isreal is probably a long way from figuring it out.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 22, 2004, 12:51 pm

i guess we'll see if he is more potent as a martyr than he was as a spiritual leader.

my understanding was he played a limited role in the logistical operation of Hamas. He was more of public face for the organization. I dont underestimate the importance though of a public persona for a political movement though.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 22, 2004, 1:09 pm

Voronwë wrote:i guess we'll see if he is more potent as a martyr than he was as a spiritual leader.

my understanding was he played a limited role in the logistical operation of Hamas. He was more of public face for the organization. I dont underestimate the importance though of a public persona for a political movement though.

I have seen some reuters releases that some of the worst rioting since 2000 has kicked off...:/

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » March 22, 2004, 1:22 pm

Voronwë wrote:i guess we'll see if he is more potent as a martyr than he was as a spiritual leader.

my understanding was he played a limited role in the logistical operation of Hamas. He was more of public face for the organization. I dont underestimate the importance though of a public persona for a political movement though.

A lot of people are sort of informally talking around the idea that the strike could have been carried out specifically with his martyrdom in mind. The train of thought I keep seeing pop up regarding this goes something like:
<ul>
<li>Ariel Sharon's extreme right-wing Likud party has stated on numerous occasions that its ultimate goal is to rid the West Bank of all Palestinians, pushing them back to Jordan. (refs available on request) I have read some posts claiming that either Sharon or some other Likud official (I'm not sure which) has actually used the term "ethnic cleansing". This, I have been unable to find a legit reference for. All I can find are sites from Al-Aqsa and Al-Jazeera and the like.

<li>Studies have shown that through differences of religion, aims, and ideologies, the most prominent common thread between terrorist groups - and the reason the claim to lash out as they do - is humiliation. They feel humiliated by what they see as an opressing power. (ref available)

Hamas, certainly has had a history of decrying and lashing out about perceived humiliation. A targeted missile strike from 150 ft above of an old, wheelchair-bound sheikh whom Hamas view as a spiritual leader certainly seems designed to humiliate.

<li>As such, we can expect a pretty ferocious response from the Palestinian side of things. Israel themselves are preparing for such an attack. Some are saying that Israel wants this attack so that they can use it as justification for a larger assault on the West Bank.</ul>

Now, to be sure, I really don't put stock into a lot of this. Though grounded in reality and actual statements of purpose, there's a pretty clear detour into speculation that just sounds a little too "tinfoil hat" to maintain credibility - at least to me. However, it does raise some interesting speculation, at least, and kinda touches on what Voro just said about him being more potent now that he's dead.

Regardless, such assassinations (regardless of motive for doing so) have historically been quite frowned upon in the international community. What example did we set for Israel with out preemptive strike on Iraq, and what should the world do with Israel regarding it's lean towards assassination? (Remember, the Mossad carried out a string of high-profile assassinations all around the world in the 1980's, and have been targeting opponents on a here-and-there basis ever since.)

edit:: grammar > me

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 22, 2004, 2:40 pm

Israel has absolutely no intention of ending the cycle of violence that perpetuates this conflict.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » March 22, 2004, 2:53 pm

Neither does Palestine.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 22, 2004, 2:54 pm

kyoukan wrote:Israel has absolutely no intention of ending the cycle of violence that perpetuates this conflict.

in fact this could drive a wedge between Gaza and the West Bank depending on how the resultant power vacuum is filled.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 22, 2004, 2:55 pm

kyoukan wrote:Israel has absolutely no intention of ending the cycle of violence that perpetuates this conflict.

Well they have no intention of negotiating an end to it at any rate...

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 22, 2004, 4:18 pm

Ashur wrote:Neither does Palestine.

Palestine isn't the aggressor.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » March 22, 2004, 4:40 pm

How on earth can Isreal say they want peace when they pull shit like this?
Either that or there leadership is so fucking stupid they can see far enough ahead to realize that this kind of BS just perpetuates that problem.
They killed Yassin, but how many are more than willing to fill his shoes?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 22, 2004, 5:02 pm

Israel kills in reprisal because they want to incite the palestinians into a war which Israel would win very handily, thanks to their 100's of billions of dollars worth of free American weapons hardware. As long as the palestinians maintain their international sympathy, Israel can't exterminate them like they want to. It's fairly ironic, given that Israel only exists because of they international sympathy they got in the 40s and 50s after the holocaust.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » March 22, 2004, 5:08 pm

kyoukan wrote:
Ashur wrote:Neither does Palestine.
Palestine isn't the aggressor.

Yeah, and suicide bombings of civilian centers or buses isn't a form of aggression. It's fully supported in the Koran as a legal recourse during Jihad. Therefore Israel is 100% at fault.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 22, 2004, 5:22 pm

Do you think Palestinians blow themselves up on busses and in restaurants because they think jewish people are silly?

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » March 22, 2004, 5:33 pm

I think that they're silly and childish for blowing themselves up in restaurants and buses.

I'm not saying that Israel is innocent either. But Palestinians certainly aren't showing their desire for peace, and apparently they have plenty of people willing to blow themselves up rather than knocking that shit off and stepping up to the negociating table.

It's a hell of a bargaining chip with the rest of the world when they finally decide to stop blowing shit up and just sit down and realize like any rational person that they are going to have to give something up in order to be able to create their own nation. Israel will have to come to this realization as well, but I'm sure international (*coughUScough*) pressure will be great enough to make them buck up and start behaving themselves as well.

It won't be easy, but swallowing a little pride never truly hurt anyone.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 22, 2004, 5:44 pm

Palestinians don't want peace. They want their shit back. There will never be peace until they get their shit back.

They almost got their shit back until a jew murdered Rabin for having the audacity to negotiate with the Palestinians to give them their shit back.

I would like to see how you would react if you came home from work one day and a group of heavily armed jewish "settlers" are living in your house with IDF tanks patrolling around to make sure you don't try to get your shit back, and your whole family has been moved off to a shithole of a refugee camp.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » March 22, 2004, 6:03 pm

Pahreyia wrote:I think that they're silly and childish for blowing themselves up in restaurants and buses.

I'm not saying that Israel is innocent either. But Palestinians certainly aren't showing their desire for peace, and apparently they have plenty of people willing to blow themselves up rather than knocking that shit off and stepping up to the negociating table.

It's a hell of a bargaining chip with the rest of the world when they finally decide to stop blowing shit up and just sit down and realize like any rational person that they are going to have to give something up in order to be able to create their own nation. Israel will have to come to this realization as well, but I'm sure international (*coughUScough*) pressure will be great enough to make them buck up and start behaving themselves as well.

It won't be easy, but swallowing a little pride never truly hurt anyone.

Do you not realize that the US pratically funds Israels defense 100%, and palestine has NO OTHER FORM of defense other then to use suicide bombers?
back to the old analogy
Hell, the situation in Israel is indirectly responciple for pretty much all arabic terrorism.

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » March 22, 2004, 6:13 pm

kyoukan wrote:Do you think Palestinians blow themselves up on busses and in restaurants because they think jewish people are silly?

It's because of the yarmulkes.

They almost got their shit back until a jew murdered Rabin for having the audacity to negotiate with the Palestinians to give them their shit back.

And there's the rub. Rabin was a good man, with a real vision of peace and the work it would take to achieve it. Then he was murdered, and Sharon's Likud party took over. In stark contrast to Rabin, Sharon is a butcher. Please don't mistake this criticism as anti-semitic or anti-zionist - all of my Jewish friends agree with me. Sharon has got to go.

miir · Post by **miir** » March 22, 2004, 6:16 pm

Israel vs Palestine is akin to USA vs Iraq... in terms of military force, technology and funding.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » March 22, 2004, 6:34 pm

kyoukan wrote:Israel kills in reprisal because they want to incite the palestinians into a war which Israel would win very handily, thanks to their 100's of billions of dollars worth of free American weapons hardware. As long as the palestinians maintain their international sympathy, Israel can't exterminate them like they want to. It's fairly ironic, given that Israel only exists because of they international sympathy they got in the 40s and 50s after the holocaust.

I find it ironic that many of the tactics that Israel employs against the Palastinians are reminiscint of tactics the Germans used on conquered countries in WWII.
As long as Israelis see themselves as the big victims of the last century, they will always feel justified in their actions, no matter how extreme.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » March 22, 2004, 6:50 pm

This board is abit too biased so a view from the other side:
HAMAS has used terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel which hasnt done much better but atleast they are targeting tactical targets not a shop of civilians. Hamas does not want to live next to the Jew and I bet you if there wasnt even an Isreal the Jews would experience violence from these type of people Hamas(which I have no care for at all). Hamas is not the voice of all Palestine either like you would think, many are opposed of suicide bombings on civilians. Organiziations like Hamas must go for a chance of peace to even exist....Hamas are the red necks of the middle east.

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » March 22, 2004, 6:54 pm

And you are part of the rednecks of the US. I guess you should go too if there is any hope for peace.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » March 22, 2004, 7:01 pm

kyoukan wrote:
Ashur wrote:Neither does Palestine.
Palestine isn't the aggressor.

In most modern day instances, I'm afraid they are

miir · Post by **miir** » March 22, 2004, 7:08 pm

Sirton, you're so sheltered, closed minded and ignorant.. it's really quite embarrasing.

Some Palestine organizations have used unconventional attacks in their 'war' with Isreal which have resulted in the deaths of many civilians.

Israel has repeatedly hit civilian Palestinian targets, claiming they were strategic military strikes. These have resulted in the just as many (if not more) Palestinian civilain deaths.

Both sides are guilty of atrocities in this conflict.
Neither side seems very commited to negotiating an amicable solution.

You call Hamas (and other Palestinian militant orgs) terrorists.
What differentiates them from the Isreali army responsible for the deaths of innocent Palestinian civilians?

I'm not siding with either group here.... but Sirton, you can't be so naieve to think that groups like Hamas are solely responsible for the continuence of this conflict.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 22, 2004, 7:13 pm

Sirton wrote:HAMAS has used terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state

re-establish.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 22, 2004, 7:23 pm

Chidoro wrote:In most modern day instances, I'm afraid they are

It's too cyclical to state who's the real aggressor these days. Palestinians blow up a bus and then the Israelis respond by filling an apartment building that may or may not have housed a few terrorists full of hellfire missiles from one of their gunships. Palestinians respond by blowing up a pizzaria ad infinitum.

I don't agree with blowing up civilians to make a point, but it's not like the palestinians are in any shape to take on the IDF. I don't think that one culture should surrender themselves to another just because they don't have a big enough army. Equally I don't agree with Israelies launching missiles randomly into buildings and at cars in the middle of crowded areas and call it a targetted attack and that they are sorry for any collateral damage they might have caused.

I do know one thing. The violence exists only because the Palestinians have been displaced from their land, which is now occupied by what Israel laughingly refers to as "settlers" like they are fucking pioneers carving out land for themselves that was previously unoccupied or something.

People seem to have it in their heads that Palestinians take their own lives to blow up jews because they just don't like them very much or something. People don't do that type of thing. Do you think that the Palestinian groups like Hamas look at themselves as terrorists? They are fighting for the existence of their very culture and way of life. The way they choose to go about it isn't all that noble in my opinion, but they don't have a lot of options.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » March 22, 2004, 8:07 pm

This whole thing strangely reminds me of xenogears. Two sides are battling for so long that they dont know why anymore. One side was winning untill an outside force (us) steps in and helps the losing side.
USA = Solaris? Hmmm

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » March 22, 2004, 11:21 pm

The Shire has been cleansed! Hobbits strike a pose!

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » March 23, 2004, 12:29 am

kyoukan wrote:It's too cyclical to state who's the real aggressor these days.

People seem to have it in their heads that Palestinians take their own lives to blow up jews because they just don't like them very much or something. People don't do that type of thing. Do you think that the Palestinian groups like Hamas look at themselves as terrorists? They are fighting for the existence of their very culture and way of life.

I think if you look back since the Olympic incident, you will find most potential agreements or summits being uprooted from a group such as hamas as opposed to a pre-emptive Israeli attack.

Actually, I think they would prefer the complete eradication of Israel as a state in it's entirety than just claiming their lands. I truly do believe people do that type of thing given the situation and the cyclical hatred that's been generated. I think you would have a hell of a task trying to convice me otherwise. I'm not saying what was done was right or that I wish that Sharon shouldn't be removed in leiu of someone who is more progressive, but I'm not crying today, you can be assured of that.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 23, 2004, 12:48 am

kyoukan wrote:Israel has absolutely no intention of ending the cycle of violence that perpetuates this conflict.

Terrorism is a tool. If Israel were to allow this tool to work and force them back to the table what would the message be?

Until Palestine realizes that the tool they have chosen will never work then the cycle of bombings and retaliation will never end. However if Palestine were to show restraint then the worlds opinion would force Israel back to the table.

Terrorism can never be allowed to be successful.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 23, 2004, 6:30 am

Terrorism is a tool. If Israel were to allow this tool to work and force them back to the table what would the message be?

Until Palestine realizes that the tool they have chosen will never work then the cycle of bombings and retaliation will never end. However if Palestine were to show restraint then the worlds opinion would force Israel back to the table.

Terrorism can never be allowed to be successful.

Well thanks from that shettering insight from the simpleton party.

The closest the Palestinians and Israelis ever came to peace was when the finally agreed to negotiate with Arafat - a terrorist they spent 40 years refusing to talk to. Unfortunately it's now too late and the hard-liners on each side hold sway. And the hard-liners want nothing less than the eradication of the enemy state. Hamas wants Israel gone. Hardline Israelis want "only one state west of the river Jordan" (no prizes for guessing which state). At this stage it matters little who is right or wrong, or who started it (do we go back 50 years or 5000 to decide this anyway?). But one thing is certain - there will be no peace while terrorist activity continues on both sides (and I'm sorry but the collective punishment policies of the IDF and Israel are just as disgraceful as suicide bombing), and there is absolutely no chance of any progress while the opposing sides continue to provoke each other to provide an excuse to "not negotiate".

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 23, 2004, 10:22 am

vn_Tanc wrote:
Terrorism is a tool. If Israel were to allow this tool to work and force them back to the table what would the message be?

Until Palestine realizes that the tool they have chosen will never work then the cycle of bombings and retaliation will never end. However if Palestine were to show restraint then the worlds opinion would force Israel back to the table.

Terrorism can never be allowed to be successful.
Well thanks from that shettering insight from the simpleton party.

But one thing is certain - there will be no peace while terrorist activity continues on both sides (and I'm sorry but the collective punishment policies of the IDF and Israel are just as disgraceful as suicide bombing), and there is absolutely no chance of any progress while the opposing sides continue to provoke each other to provide an excuse to "not negotiate".

ROFLMAO

Regurgitate much

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » March 23, 2004, 10:56 am

Both sides are guilty of atrocities in this conflict.
Neither side seems very commited to negotiating an amicable solution.
Miir

I completely agree with you Miir, now instead of bashing on what I said to which is true why don't we actually understand each other corretly. Thx for labeling me and being so close minded yourself...you state my views for me ohh so well..

My view I stated is about Hamas, because whatever happens to that fanatical organization in any negative way, I think is a positive. I am not happy about Isreal bull dozing houses or building a wall over palestine land, but I do think blowing up buses and restaurants filled with civilians without establishing some sort of tactical target is bad aswell. I will not support either action and despise actions such as those of Hamas.

If we had bulldozers knocking down houses in the US by someone else id be pissed as hell if we had suicide bombers which in time we will I will be outraged. Both actions are sick. And killing someone in Hamas I do not find being sick such as the other actions I stated above. I also would not be as outraged if Hamas blew up Isreali military units or politicians it would make abit more since to me than targeting civilians, not that Im codoning it just maybe you'll understand me better than inaccurately labeling me.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 23, 2004, 10:58 am

ROFLMAO

Regurgitate much

Do you have a point?

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » March 23, 2004, 10:59 am

Terrorism can never be allowed to be successful.
Atokal

Agree

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » March 23, 2004, 1:03 pm

The US does not solely front Israel all of their weapons. About the only thing the US provides Israel with is their air wing. We haev "sold" them $7.6 billion in planes, missiles, and other aircraft in the last decade.

However, they are using Soviet armor and have made many of their own rifles and sidearms. They have purchased some as well from the US.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 23, 2004, 1:40 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:The US does not solely front Israel all of their weapons. About the only thing the US provides Israel with is their air wing. We haev "sold" them $7.6 billion in planes, missiles, and other aircraft in the last decade.

However, they are using Soviet armor and have made many of their own rifles and sidearms. They have purchased some as well from the US.

Errm the Merkava (their main battle tank) was developed in Israel wasn't it?

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » March 23, 2004, 7:00 pm

Arborealus wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:The US does not solely front Israel all of their weapons. About the only thing the US provides Israel with is their air wing. We haev "sold" them $7.6 billion in planes, missiles, and other aircraft in the last decade.

However, they are using Soviet armor and have made many of their own rifles and sidearms. They have purchased some as well from the US.
Errm the Merkava (their main battle tank) was developed in Israel wasn't it?

Yes.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » March 23, 2004, 7:56 pm

merkava huh? you mean god's paradise in xenogears? the wierd connections continue to rise

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 23, 2004, 9:04 pm

uhh, it's not really a coincidence that there are parallels between xenogears and the israeli/arab conflict.

just so you know.

and most of israel's military hardware comes from hardcore US aid money which is specifically for defense spending. saying that the US is not responsible for it is like me not being responsible for your gun if I gave you $500 and said "use this to buy a gun."

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » March 23, 2004, 9:10 pm

! I need teh details!

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 23, 2004, 10:12 pm

kyoukan wrote:uhh, it's not really a coincidence that there are parallels between xenogears and the israeli/arab conflict.

just so you know.

and most of israel's military hardware comes from hardcore US aid money which is specifically for defense spending. saying that the US is not responsible for it is like me not being responsible for your gun if I gave you $500 and said "use this to buy a gun."

right...i was just confused about the "soviet armour" bit...most of their armour since the mid 80's has been their own designs...

Daerib Bittcroaker · Post by **Daerib Bittcroaker** » March 24, 2004, 12:18 pm

If Martyrdom is such the cool thing to do...

Why are they not sending out their own children and grandchildren out to do it?
Instead they cull their suicide bombers from the lowest members of their ranks... Why is it we don't see any of the leaders volunteering for these missions if it is the penultimate sacrifice one can do?

I don't see the violence in that area ending in my lifetime. As long as the many religions that share "Holy" sites exist they will always bicker about them. Christians, Jews and Muslims all have sites of major significance in and around Jerusalem and other parts of Israel.

What the palestinians need to do is stop clamoring for "REVENGE, REVENGE!" and start seeking justice. Do I think the tact that Israel is taking is morally correct? No... Nor do I think that the Palestinians are going about it the correct way either.

I don't have an answer for what is going on currently, but I am a firm believer in there being a better way to come to a resolution of the problem..

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 24, 2004, 12:26 pm

no different than how people enter military service in our society. it is rarely the sons of senators who find themselves in the infantry.

George Bush for example getting prioritized over 100 other applicants to join the Texas Air National Guard. I'd do the same for my son if I had the means, so i'm not necessarily critical of that aspect of the situation, but i think to point at the manner in which Palestine recruits its paramilitary muscle as something different than how soldiers are recruited in most other societies i think overlooks the reality of the situation.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » March 24, 2004, 1:49 pm

Anyone else finding it strangely ironic, that although some people condemn terrorism, they don't condemn an assassination?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 24, 2004, 3:15 pm

Yup. Israel's civilian body count is something like 3 times higher than Palestine's in this current intifada as well. But righties don't even acknowledge that because they are all just collateral damage.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » March 25, 2004, 8:00 am

Yup. Israel's civilian body count is something like 3 times higher than Palestine's in this current intifada as well. But righties don't even acknowledge that because they are all just collateral damage.

You must've missed the memo. Terrorists walk around with no less than 2 innocent civilians strapped to themselves 24/7. It's really not the IDF's fault!

VeeshanVault

Hamas/Israel assassination

Hamas/Israel assassination

The thing I don't get is this...