ELF (Earth Liberation Front)

Siji · Post by **Siji** » March 10, 2004, 4:17 pm

http://www.earthliberationfront.com/

I'm curious what opinions people have of this group (ELF), and groups like it. I know ahead of time what a few select readers from this board are going to say already, but I'm curious about the rest of you.

At what point do citizens get frustrated in the lack of our government to protect our planet for our children and their children at the benefit of the almighty dollar? How far is too far to fight for that frustration? (Keep in mind that to date, the ELF organization has not injured or killed anyone)

Do you think groups like this compare to PETA or Greenpeace? Or is this the next logical step for organizations like this, since PETA and Greenpeace seem to not be having much affect. (See the many ways that Bush in his term has destroyed environmental protections - as compared to the many that Clinton for example, initiated)

Some links with more information:
http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/ ... 81022.html

http://www.factnet.org/cults/earth_libe ... t/?FACTNet

http://greennature.com/article70.html

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 10, 2004, 4:22 pm

i didnt read the post, but i am very pro-ELF

but seriously, you arent going to attract mainstream america with a name like "Earth" "Liberation" "Front". the name is para-military already and that is simply not understanding basic marketing principles.

if you want to attract pot-smoking long-haired biology majors (i was one of these 10 years ago), then sure call it "Earth Liberation Front". But i didnt make any money either.

If you want to attract people who can spend money call your organization something like "Sierra Club" and offer prodcuts like mutual funds (which they do) etc.

In our current political environment, the ONLY way to effect change is financially, and it is very difficult for people to outcompete corporations in this regards in any head to head issue. You have to follow the grass roots model of the Christian COalition, however, in this instance we are lacking a critical structural element that CC could capitalize on. Their constituency was organized in church congregations from the start.

so anyway, i offer no solutions just problems

i think that you can be pro-business and also protect the environment. I think it is a core responsibility of the government to protect basic public health resources like drinking water and air quality. It is total bullshit to say that it is impossible to have a decent economy while placing reasonable restrictions on polution. Corporations should not be stiffled by regulation, but they should not rape the public's property either.

i think groups like this do more harm than good probably. They make environmentalist look like terrorists, and obviously that is about the worst thing you could do if you wanted to market your politicis to the masses.

in fact it is pure idiocy.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » March 10, 2004, 4:23 pm

While I never condone breaking the law, I can't help but secretly admire them. I also believe that sometimes you need extremist groups to draw attention to important issues that otherwise get ignored.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » March 10, 2004, 4:30 pm

I am very strongly against them.

Even if they haven't actually hurt any people, they are responsible for a lot of property damage.

Even worse though, the biotech research they like to destroy has great potential in actually lowering our impact on the environment, and greatly improving the lot of people around the world.

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » March 10, 2004, 4:35 pm

I've actually had to research this group for one of my classes this semester which sort of sucks because they are a difficult "terrorist organization" to research.

ELF is really more of a movement then anything else, lending its name and publicity to criminal acts that are inspired in part because of perceived actions taken by individuals, government or business against the environment.

Most of their attacks are little more then criminal mischief such as slashing tires on construction equipment, filling gas tanks with sand, using glass etching material to damage vehicle and property windows (one of their favorites) and an occassional arson to grab headlines.

Their objective as stated on their webpage ( http://www.earthliberationfront.com/main.shtml ) is to:

"The ELF realizes the profit motive caused and reinforced by the capitalist society is destroying all life on this planet. The only way, at this point in time, to stop that continued destruction of life is to by any means necessary take the profit motive out of killing." (Taken from page)

While they have functioned in North America since the mid 1990's, I was only able to find one example of where they successfully managed to stop action taken by a company when they forced a CEO to resign after damaging his home.

They have been able to operate on the high ground to date because one of their chief concerns is to avoid inflicting any human casualties which they have succeeded in, but because of the nature of arson they are unknowingly placing the firefighters at risk.

Overall, they are unwelcome by mainstream movements such as PETA (though a minor link exists between the two when a $1,500 donation was made to ELF by PETA) and generally discredit legitimate organizations. Most of their attacks are worthless, causing less then $10,000 per attack. However, their new thing is burning SUV's which has been found to release more pullution in one night then all of the trucks would throughout their operational lifetime. Go figure.

Thanks for the links though, useful stuff.

Another one that covers a lot of ELF actions

http://www.animalrights.net/faq/organiz ... front.html

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 10, 2004, 5:00 pm

Their actions cannot achieve their goals...

Destruction of SUVs = insurance payment = purchase of new SUV = more demand for SUVs + increased insurance rates for all...how does that benefit anyone other than insurance companies and SUV manufacturers?

Research and education are what will really save the environment...Destruction is just destruction ultimately

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 10, 2004, 5:05 pm

Agree Arbor.

They should be jailed and their website shut down. They are criminals.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 10, 2004, 5:13 pm

these guys are basically the equivalent to the abortion clinic bombers on the conservative side.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » March 10, 2004, 5:20 pm

"Save the planet? when it's time the Earth will shake us off like a bad case of fleas" - Carlin

Sure we don't need to go overboard and just squander our natural resources but the Planet, the EARTH is going to be around, it's not going anywhere... WE might not be here though

Marb

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » March 10, 2004, 5:25 pm

Marbus wrote:"Save the planet? when it's time the Earth will shake us off like a bad case of fleas" - Carlin

Sure we don't need to go overboard and just squander our natural resources but the Planet, the EARTH is going to be around, it's not going anywhere... WE might not be here though

Marb

The whole point of "saving the planet" is that the damage we are doing to it AFFECTS US. I'm sick of idiots who don't understand why the bird population or the rain forests matter. Ultimately, we are screwing ourselves.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » March 10, 2004, 5:59 pm

I have to admit that I had never heard of them until today - when I saw a bumper sticker that said ELF. And I thought they were roleplaying geeks and laughed.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » March 10, 2004, 6:00 pm

I guess I see what they're doing as giving a message. Is what they're doing causing great changes? Is it really affecting the people they target? No, it's not. But does it make people that hear or read about it think about the why or the thought process behind it? It might.

It could be said, easily, that the end doesn't justify the means.. That's why I asked, at what point is it time to stand up and do what you believe in - and to what extent? I think the comparison to abortion clinic doctor murderers is wrong. If someone torched an abortion clinic or vandalized it, then sure. Make the comparison. But ELF isn't out killing Hummer drivers or CEO's.

Tupac once said something like - "I won't be the one to change the world, but I'll influence the person that will." (Yeah, I'm off a bit, but it's close) That's what I see ELF trying to do. The actions ELF is taking are petty for the most part (comparitively speaking since they've been classified as terrorists), but the awareness, ideas and/or thoughts they may spark..

To be clear, I don't condone illegal activity either. However, the noisy wheel gets the grease.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 10, 2004, 6:03 pm

I'm sick of the enlightened self-interest argument, frankly...I honestly think all life merits respect.

No I don't expect any divine retribution for not taking care of life. I really don't give a damn if a lifeform has inherent utility to mankind. I really think we need to ask "why?" more and "why not?" less.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 10, 2004, 6:18 pm

Quoting Tupac is tacky ><

Radicals rarely get the job done, good message or not. Although, the US was founded by radicals, so what do I know

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » March 10, 2004, 6:57 pm

I like their ideals, but I don't like their aggresive and naive acts. Being agressive like this will create a negative responce towards environmentalists. It's sad though, peaceful organizations with similar ideals are never being listened to, it's come to this extreme for people to actually pay attention.

These days they will simply be labeled as terrorists and in the end they will have accomplished nothing.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » March 10, 2004, 7:17 pm

I agree with Keverian. I agree with some of there principles about protecting the environemnt but I think they are starting to get a little too extreme in some of their actions. They have caused tens of millions of dollars in damage. In most cases the crimes they are committing are just stupid. Torching a SUV dealer for instance served no purpose except a few news headlines for a day or two. I think it is only a matter of time before they actually start killing people.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 10, 2004, 7:21 pm

Voronwë wrote:these guys are basically the equivalent to the abortion clinic bombers on the conservative side.

Aye Voro. Those people need to die.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » March 10, 2004, 7:26 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Voronwë wrote:these guys are basically the equivalent to the abortion clinic bombers on the conservative side.
Aye Voro. Those people need to die.

Yeah I'm sure Voronwe meant exactly that.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 10, 2004, 7:36 pm

Radicals serve an important function in every movement. They themselves are destructive and their ideas not palitable to the vast majority of people, including other environmentalists. However, the edges of any movement never hold political power. Their radicalism allows other environmentalist to be more mainstream. They allow other groups to be an attrative alternative.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » March 10, 2004, 8:00 pm

True true. Good point.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » March 10, 2004, 9:04 pm

These are the same type of groups that have no clue...ELF burns SuVs causing more polution then the SuVs would of!!!! Next there gonna be poking holes in Oil Tankers to keep fuel from the evil cars...Well find out thats what happened to the Exxon Valdez

As a conservationalist actually out in the field at times unlike many of these so called environmental groups....These groups have DONE more harm than anyone of you think to wildlife in the name of good....Yes they have a great message most of us agree, but they are now at odds with conservationalist and hunters who also care about the environment on the whole and they barely will compromise for the best of the wildlife or environment, because doing so would loose them money from many of there donors who have no clue what is best. All you have to do is look at the organizations and there accomplishments.

Prime example is much of this wack organizational money has gone to the Botswanna Gov't, so much for protection of the elephant in a region and now the elephant population is 5 times its capacity and NOW the whole region is destroyed and now there are many animals extinct and the environment unreparable in the region...look up the CHOBE in Botswanna one of the most beutiful places on earth now turned to mud holes!!! woot go go environmental money with no brains paying off Gov'ts to makesure conservationalist and hunters cant control populations in areas!!!

These Elf people should be put in jail along with those abortion right wing peeps. And this poll shows how off this board is, because Ill tell ya not nearly 50% of Americans support such a radical group as ELF.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 10, 2004, 9:10 pm

hunters who also care about the environment

Yes, those hunters really care about the environment. It would be truely sad for them if a species died out. They'd be unable to hunt them down and kill them! A sad tale indeed.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 10, 2004, 9:14 pm

Heh digging up prairie to make wetlands for ducks isn't conservation...

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 10, 2004, 9:30 pm

Lalanae wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Voronwë wrote:these guys are basically the equivalent to the abortion clinic bombers on the conservative side.
Aye Voro. Those people need to die.
Yeah I'm sure Voronwe meant exactly that.

Aye Voro (PERIOD) Those poeple need to die (PERIOD)

Two distinct statements. Learn english jackass.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » March 11, 2004, 1:06 am

You embarrass people by agreeing with them. No one wants to be associated with your opinions.

btw, emphasizing periods does not change the context of the message. THX English degree!

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » March 11, 2004, 1:17 am

On preview, what both Voro and Arborealus have said. They speak for me quite eloquently regarding this matter.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » March 11, 2004, 7:47 am

Many hunters have done more than you ever will for the environment. Theodore Roosevelt for one.

Many of your ultra-environmentalist in Africa are even starting to say hunters are the only reason that many species have not died out in Africa its sad to them, but they are starting to admit it(cause they are there) this is also true in the USA. Im personally a conservationalist and have been there and been in the field with endangered species and have helped track down poachers and wipe them out they had 5 black rhino horns out of what 200 in the region at the time....And I tell you environmental money from the states to africa has done terrible things in parts...I mean entire regions DEAD, because they can raise good money by showing a poor elephant hurting, but they have no clue how much overpopulation of a creature such as the elephant does.

Now dont get me wrong I think many of the people donating and even many of them in the field are good people with good causes. Exspecially those in the field, because they are there and see it with there own eyes. The problem is there organizations are money driven and they will barely ever work with others on real solutions. They get narrow sighted and dont see the overall picture to say we do this now give us money.

This current events board is off in lala land.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 8:06 am

No, what hunters do is go kill and torture animals for fun. For no reason I can think of, they get a license to do things to animals that would otherwise, rightfully, get people thrown in jail. If they are the hope for the environment, then screw the environment. I must concede to some sense of satifaction, or maybe justice is the right word for it, every time I read of the occasional (and far too infrequent, imo) "tragic report" of a hunting accident. It's ashame that hunting is not actually dangerous, because no one deserves to be on one of those Fox specials more than the sick fucks that get off on torturing defenseless animals.

Edit: BTW, not that TR was not a great president, but what exactly do you think he did for the environment?

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » March 11, 2004, 9:38 am

Tom Lehrer wrote:I always will remember,
'Twas a year ago November,
I went out to hunt some deer
On a mornin' bright and clear.
I went and shot the maximum the game laws would allow,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

I was in no mood to trifle,
I took down my trusty rifle
And went out to stalk my prey.
What a haul I made that day.
I tied them to my fender, and I drove them home somehow,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

The law was very firm, it
Took away my permit,
The worst punishment I ever endured.
It turned out there was a reason,
Cows were out of season,
And one of the hunters wasn't insured.

People ask me how I do it,
And I say, "There's nothin' to it,
You just stand there lookin' cute,
And when something moves, you shoot!"
And there's ten stuffed heads in my trophy room right now,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a pure-bred Guernsey cow.

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » March 11, 2004, 10:31 am

Aaeamdar wrote:
Edit: BTW, not that TR was not a great president, but what exactly do you think he did for the environment?

Not much...

http://www.environmentaldefense.org/art ... entid=2759

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 10:44 am

Yeah, I assumed that was what T.R. "the environmentalist" was being refered to for. I guess we have differing perspectives on the significance of his contributions. I see a man that really enjoyed going out and killing things wanting to make sure that that important aspect of his life was not lost to him and future generations. Maybe that is unfair. If you read enough of his "poetry" about hunting, maybe you won't think my perspective is that unforgiving. I do agree, though, that reasonable people can disagree on it.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » March 11, 2004, 11:42 am

Hunting is huge here in Wisconsin and I think it needs to get bigger. We have a huge overpopulation of deer and hunting is the only way to get rid of them. With our single week of hunting a year, over 300k deer were killed and it barely dented the herd. The government tried reintroducing wolves and they are reproducing pretty quick but they like cows better so that didn't work.

I agree that some hunters go overboard in their blood lust. I personally don't hunt but I know a lot of families in Wisconsin still depend on the meat that they get. For every irresponsible hunter that shoots his buddy cause he is loaded on beer, I can show you at least a hundred that are very responsible and respectful of their role in the environment. The majority of us want to enjoy nature for decades to come but we can't allow the deer to destroy nature through overpopulation and spread of disease.

Wasn't TR the president that set aside the largest amount of land for conservation purposes? I am probably wrong but I thought he was responsible for Yosemite and some other large areas.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 11:54 am

Some hick killing or (more often) wounding a defenseless creature is not "responsible and resectful of their role in teh environment." And, no, you do not know any family that "depends" on the meat they get. American's do not need to eat meat at all, much less go out and "hunt" (if taking pot shots into a swarm of deer can be called "hunting") for it.

If you want to not need to kill 300k+ deer each year, then starting prior to mating season, start introducing contraceptives into their food supply. That has consistantly proven to be very effective. You are kidding yourself if you think the Government is relying on hunters to "solve" the deer problem. It's the hunters that are relying on the Government to keep them in supply.

As for the "irresponsible hunter that shoots his buddy cause he is loaded on beer" - the more the better as far as I am concerned. Best way to solve the problem, and really its what they deserve anyway. Hopefully its a nice gut shot so the dying can be slow and painful. That way the hunter could get a real appriciation for his "sport."

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » March 11, 2004, 12:11 pm

Dennis Leary summed up the role of meat rather well...

I tried eating vegetarian. I feel like a wimp going into a restaurant. "What do you want to eat sir? Brocolli?" Brocolli's a side dish, folks. Always was, always will be, ok? When they ask me what I want, I say, "What do you think I want!? This is America. I want a bowl of raw red meat right now. Forget about that. Bring me a live cow over to the table. I'll carve off what I want and ride the rest home! [Making riding noises]"

I gonna open up my own place. Open my own restaurant and get away from you people. I gonna open up a restaurant with two smoking sections; Ultra and Regular, ok? And we're not gonna have any tables or any chairs or any napkins. None of that pussy shit. Just a big wide open black space. And all we're gonna serve is raw meat, right on the bone! And only men are going to eat there, naked men, sitting around a big giant camp fire, and no men's room either. You have to piss, you mark your territory like a wolf! And if some guy has a heart attack from eating too much meat, fuck him, we throw him in the fire! More meat for the other meat-eaters! Yeah!

Because you gotta have goals. Because everybody in this room knows everybody who's quitting. You all have that friend who's quitting it. You know what I mean? The guys quitting it, "I quit smoking. I quit drugs. I quit drinking. I quit meat, and I feel great. I get up in the morning and have a nice big bowl of oat bran. I go to the bathroom for three and a half hours. I have another bowl of oat bran. I go back in the bathroom for six more hours. All I do is eat and shit, I'm gonna live forever! My colon is the strongest muscle in my body right now. I could pass Elvis through my colon right now."

And all these cereals they have, Cracklin' Oat Bran, and Horkin' Fiber Chunks, you know? Cereal used to come with a free prize. Now it comes with a free roll of toilet paper in every box. Guys get up on Sunday morning, "Forget about the New York Times, I'm gonna need the Bible. I got a big one brewing here." "Dad, there's a phone call!" "I'm on Genesis, God dammit! You tell 'em to call back after the creation!" People checking their own feces for fiber. You have too much free fucking time on your hands, ok.

Red meat, white meat, blue meat, meat-o-fucking-rama. You will eat it. Because not eating meat is a decision. Eating meat is an instinct! Yeah! And I know what it's about. "I don't want to eat the meat because I love the animals. I love the animals." Hey, I love the animals too. I love my doggy. He's so cute. My fluffy little dog.. He's so cute- There's the problem. We only want to save the cute animals, don't we? Yeah. Why don't we just have animal auditions. Line 'em up one by one and interview them individually. "What are you?" "I'm an otter." "And what do you do?" "I swim around on my back and do cute little human things with my hands." "You're free to go." "And what are you?" "I'm a cow." "Get in the fucking truck, ok pal!" "But I'm an animal." "You're a baseball glove! Get on that truck!" "I'm an animal, I have rights!" "Yeah, here's yer fucking cousin, get on the fucking truck, pal!" We kill the cows to make jackets out of them and then we kill each other for the jackets we made out of the cows.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 11, 2004, 12:13 pm

Aaeamdar I continue to find it amazing that you hope a human gets shot and killed rather than a deer. You do realize that most hunters eat what they shoot. That unlike the random and unmanaged slaughter of the Bison that hunters have strict limits placed upon them. That Doe licenses are rare and in terms of being shot and eaten vs mauled by a predator and eaten I am quite sure that the deer would choose the former.

The only animals on this planet that are deserving of the hatred and scorn you heap upon (those that are different from you) are lawyers. Wait a minute......

ELF sucks as do all groups that break the law and destroy private property to propagate their beliefs.

Cheers

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 12:20 pm

/shrug. It the deer were out for blood trying to kill the human, I'd vote for the human.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2004, 12:23 pm

The fact this poll is as close as it is, is really frightening. Some of you have a lot of growing up to do.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 11, 2004, 12:28 pm

i voted pro-ELF without knowing what it was.

mostly because I am pro-"elf"!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2004, 12:40 pm

ROFL

It didn't say "Pro-Wood Elf" /slap

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 11, 2004, 12:46 pm

The poll just referred to "Eco Groups". I didn't read the link but I agree with what most "Eco Groups" do. Just not these idiots.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » March 11, 2004, 1:00 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:Some hick killing or (more often) wounding a defenseless creature is not "responsible and resectful of their role in teh environment." And, no, you do not know any family that "depends" on the meat they get. American's do not need to eat meat at all, much less go out and "hunt" (if taking pot shots into a swarm of deer can be called "hunting") for it.

If you want to not need to kill 300k+ deer each year, then starting prior to mating season, start introducing contraceptives into their food supply. That has consistantly proven to be very effective. You are kidding yourself if you think the Government is relying on hunters to "solve" the deer problem. It's the hunters that are relying on the Government to keep them in supply.

As for the "irresponsible hunter that shoots his buddy cause he is loaded on beer" - the more the better as far as I am concerned. Best way to solve the problem, and really its what they deserve anyway. Hopefully its a nice gut shot so the dying can be slow and painful. That way the hunter could get a real appriciation for his "sport."

You're so fucking retarded you make Tracy Bingham look like a Rhodes scholar. You actually advocate putting ARTIFICIAL HORMOMES into the diets of wild animals rather than letting people kill and eat them? You really have no concept of how a natural food chain works, do you?

Siji · Post by **Siji** » March 11, 2004, 1:01 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The fact this poll is as close as it is, is really frightening. Some of you have a lot of growing up to do.

One day, hopefully, you're going to wake up. Of course, the overload of truth into your brain will probably cause your psyche to snap and you'll be left drooling on yourself like Percy in The Green Mile.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » March 11, 2004, 1:05 pm

masteen wrote:You actually advocate putting ARTIFICIAL HORMOMES into the diets of wild animals rather than letting people kill and eat them? You really have no concept of how a natural food chain works, do you?

A. Humans have fucked up the 'natural food chain' so badly, it's pretty safe to say it doesn't exist anymore.

B. Humans have been pumping so many artificial chemicals into wild animals via polution that there's not much difference. Don't even bring up non-wild "for food" animals and what gets put into them.

I don't eat meat, but if I did I don't think I'd have much of a problem eating the meat of an animal that's on the pill. Hell, I don't have a problem eating women that are..

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2004, 1:08 pm

Siji wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The fact this poll is as close as it is, is really frightening. Some of you have a lot of growing up to do.
One day, hopefully, you're going to wake up. Of course, the overload of truth into your brain will probably cause your psyche to snap and you'll be left drooling on yourself like Percy in The Green Mile.

Yeah man. Maybe if I like start smoking pot, grow my hair back in, call people names, label people when they disagree with me, do anything to try and make a realistic point about a subject...I will start seeing the truth as you do. Gosh, I better start soon. Let me ask the local Phish fan if he can get me started.

Sheryl · Post by **Sheryl** » March 11, 2004, 1:44 pm

way to roll with the stereotypes. you're such a model adult, gee i have so much growing up to do to be just like you!

maybe we should turn these eco-freaks into craters just like those iraqi animals.

be right back, i'm going to go have some irresponsible sex and get knocked up by a random stranger so i can better understand what family values REALLY are. gotta have kids to understand, right?!

please, keep the insights coming. i'm truly inspired. i'll be enlightened in no time!

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 11, 2004, 1:53 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Siji wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The fact this poll is as close as it is, is really frightening. Some of you have a lot of growing up to do.
One day, hopefully, you're going to wake up. Of course, the overload of truth into your brain will probably cause your psyche to snap and you'll be left drooling on yourself like Percy in The Green Mile.
Yeah man. Maybe if I like start smoking pot, grow my hair back in, call people names, label people when they disagree with me, do anything to try and make a realistic point about a subject...I will start seeing the truth as you do. Gosh, I better start soon. Let me ask the local Phish fan if he can get me started.

You do whatever you have to do to make it happen.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2004, 2:03 pm

Sunserae wrote:way to roll with the stereotypes. you're such a model adult, gee i have so much growing up to do to be just like you!

maybe we should turn these eco-freaks into craters just like those iraqi animals.

be right back, i'm going to go have some irresponsible sex and get knocked up by a random stranger so i can better understand what family values REALLY are. gotta have kids to understand, right?!

please, keep the insights coming. i'm truly inspired. i'll be enlightened in no time!

Stereotypes normally work, because they are often true. People who hate to be associated with those stereotypes speak out against them. Not everyone fits into stereotypes, but a good percentage do.

Never said you "HAVE" to have kids to understand. I said when you do you will. Big difference. When you have kids you see things a little differently.

Also never said I was a great role model. I do my best for my children, but I also realize my many faults and continue and try to improve everyday. I think it's important to try and improve.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » March 11, 2004, 2:13 pm

Sunserae wrote: be right back, i'm going to go have some irresponsible sex and get knocked up by a random stranger

On reading this, dozens of VV guys lifted their eyes to the heavens in silent hope

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 11, 2004, 2:50 pm

label people when they disagree with me

call people names

You included this in a list of things that liberals do, in a negative context. Thus, I assume you mean them to be negative things that liberals do.

Then, you said:

Stereotypes normally work, because they are often true

Maybe if I like start smoking pot

grow my hair back in

the local Phish fan

The animals

If they fuck it up, then they prove to be the animals muslim haters and towel-head haters suspect they are in the first place.

I long for the day someone attacks and maybe even invades Canada, and it is us who saves them. I'm sure though, the miserable ingrates

So now that it's settled that you have absolutely no moral ground from which you can accuse people of "calling names" or "labeling," I'd like to draw your attention to a post you made to Xyun.

I am willing to move on ideas based on facts, but you just continue to rip aparts specific words, phrases, misspellings and call names as your way of arguing.

Willing to argue based on fact, eh? No manipulating phrases or name calling as a form of argument, eh?

You keep pitying me and you'll never see it's you who could use the improvement.

True words, just misdirected.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » March 11, 2004, 3:00 pm

I support environmentalism. But I don't support groups like Greenpeace and the like when they come across as 'terrorist' organizations. Want to sneak onto govermenment property? Ok, make sure to tell your relatives not to sue when you get shot.

If it were up to me I'd be hitting golf balls at them too.

VeeshanVault

ELF (Earth Liberation Front)

What is your opinion on "Eco" groups?

ELF (Earth Liberation Front)