FREEDOM !

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 9, 2004, 1:04 pm

Lalanae wrote:clue: your God is just as imaginary

another clue: I don't have a God.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 9, 2004, 1:20 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lalanae wrote:clue: your God is just as imaginary
another clue: I don't have a God.

Well, you are pretty irrefutable proof that there isn't one.

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » March 9, 2004, 1:32 pm

or that He, if He does exist, has a pretty fucked up sense of humor.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 9, 2004, 1:45 pm

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:or that He, if He does exist, has a pretty fucked up sense of humor.

I'm sure thats it Drolgin.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 9, 2004, 2:05 pm

Voronwë wrote:
Atokal wrote:I dare say that I have not witnessed indiscriminant murder of innocents by Mainstream Christian North Americans in my lifetime.
dont you think it is illogical to try to parallel extremist fundamentalist Islamic behavior with Mainstream Christian behavior?

Christian extremists are the valid comparison to Muslim extremist.

People like Timothy McVeigh, for example.

I'm not trying to suggest that our home grown terrorists (ie: Unabomber, Oklahoma City...) are worse than what happened on 9/11 at all. I just think your comparison is invalid Atokal.

Voro, my comment was in reference to Aaeamdar's post I quoted below.

Aaeamdar wrote:I am far more frightened of Christains here in America than I am of Arabs in Iraq. The Arab fundies have managed to kill all of 3-5000 people in America during my lifetime and apart from those deaths, some property damage and some inconvenience during travel, the Arab fundies have had little impact on my life as a whole. Christians, on the other hand, and not only a tiny set of very radical ones, but really the mainstream middle of the road religious ones, have always been and continue to be, a far greater destructive force in my day to day life than the Arab terrorists could ever hope to be.

You will notice that he was specifically contrasting the events of 911 and the perpetrators to the middle of the road Christian so my comparison is valid sir.

Cheers

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 9, 2004, 2:08 pm

the ukranian judge has ruled in Atokal's favor!

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » March 9, 2004, 3:43 pm

Id rather have that Saddam guy President over Bush Monkey!!! Rumperfield and Colin Bowel taking away MY FWeedoms!

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 9, 2004, 4:05 pm

I never said mainstream Christians killed more people than Islamic Fundies. Though I think that is quite possibly true as well, and while typing this, I'll do some research to see if I can find any numbers. What I said was they have been a greater destructive firce in my life. That is very clearly true.

I mean, do you think Arthur Henderson and James McKinney are radical Christians? Terry Helvey and Charles Vins - radical christian fundies? As just two famous examples. No, all mainstream Christians who buy in to your religions crap about how gays are bad. Then they go kill people because of it. Over my lifetime, I will have far more concern that some mainstream Christian asshole is going to get a coule of buddies together and come beat me to death than I have concern that some Inslamic Fundi is of catching me in one of their rare successful acts of terrorism on American soil.

Some "free speech" from Helvey re: killing Allen Schindler - "I don't regret it. I'd do it again.... He desevered it." Again, not some member of an extremist Christian terrorist group. Just a run of the mill Christian who hates fags.

You are an idiot if you think that tens of thousands of "men of God" spewing crap on Sunday to their flock of sheep about how gays are going to hell - again, all middle of the road Christians - does not result in people going out and killing gays.

It's not just limited to killing. Maybe the next time a member of your family dies you can imagine being at their funeral, but not alone with your family. Instead, a minister is there with a bullhorn preaching how your loved one is headed to Hell and he has with him a group of mainstream Christians holding up signs and chanting along with him.

Or maybe you are a kid, not yet emancipated. Some mainstream Christians show up at your house and with the blessing of your mainstream Christian parents, kidnap you and you get to spend the next several weeks or months in confinement, being "conviniced" that you are not really gay afterall.

Of course, that is just gays. The propensity for hatred and violence of regular, middle of the road Christians is not so limited. They also have Jews that need some killing and the occasional abortion Doctor or patient. Really, the list of examples you can just pluck out of memory from the news is endless.

Those, again, are just the mainstream Christians. Not organized Christian hate groups, that, like the Islamic fundies organize terrorist attacks on fellow Americans. Groups like the Ku Klux Klan, Skinheads, etc.

So yeah, I think I can stand by my words pretty easily that I have a lot more to fear from some random mainstream Christian here in America than I will ever have to fear from some Islamic fundi over in Iraq.

I dare say that I have not witnessed indiscriminant murder of innocents by Mainstream Christian North Americans in my lifetime.

You did not witness what happened on 911 either (though I did). You had it reported to you. I will suggest that you have had reported to you (or possibly not, since maybe that sort of thing does not make the news in Canada, but if you were American it would have) far more murders committed by mainstream Christians because of their Christain beliefs than the mere 3500 that died in the 911 attacks. Sure, not all at once, so maybe you don't remember them as well. But in terms of numbers, over the last 40 years, not even close.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » March 9, 2004, 4:22 pm

Aaeeamdar... I think you are a little off on your use of the word "mainstream." Sure many Christians do believe that it's "wrong" to be gay. However in many churches this is being address with the fact that it's "wrong" to commit adultery, lie, steal, cheat etc... all of which many "mainstream" Christians do. Remember Christians aren't perfect either. Just like in any population of people you are going to have some wackos like the ones you mentioned above... those are the extremeist NOT the mainstream.

I go to a "mainstream" church, Presbyterian USA, and we have openly gay individuals who are very active in our Chuch. Yes our Chuch docterine says that can't be ministers, but the same doctrine says that people who aren't celebate outside of marriage can't either... If being gay is "wrong" then they will have to deal with that between them and God, it's not my place to judge. They are good people who want to fellowship with other Christans.

Marb

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 9, 2004, 4:43 pm

By your definition, anyone who kills out of hatred is per se a radical. That's just not the case. All these people above went to mainstream, regular christian churches. Got their "fags are bad" indoctrination from very typical Christian ministers/preists. They are not radicals or fundamentalist just because they acted more severely than you on the hatred preached by your very mainstream religion.

These people did not join radical/fundamentalist Christian groups that had as part of its mission the "cleansing" of America of the "gay problem." They lived very normal, very Christian lives. They just decided to kill because of those very normal, very Christain values.

I can understand your need to seperate these people from yourself. Such convenieces allow you to keep going to church and funnelling it money without having to accept any of the responsibility for its actions. But, sorry, that's just wrong. These are normal people doing things they can reasonably believe as rightous because of the day to day practices of your religion. Of course, when the "tradgedy" happens, the ministers/preists who spend so much of their lives fostering the hate in the first place are "shocked and appalled." They'll get up and preach "hate the sin, but love the sinner" or some other such crap. But the reality is, they - and you - need to take some acountablility for fostering the hate in the first place.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » March 9, 2004, 5:19 pm

I don't need to separate these people from myself, they have done that by their actions... I support my Church because I believe in the good things it does. Providing free daycare to teenage mothers so they can go finish High School, sending food and clothing to those in need etc...

Those you list may GO to a mainstream Chuch but they have obviously missed out of the main part of the message... that being forgivenss. I'm not saying other people don't miss out of the message as well and do some stuipid things but these people have gone beyond Christian doctrine and beyond even secular doctrine by committing crimes of hate and murder.

Years ago when I worked in an Adolescent Psych unit, one of the Social Workers who was doing her internship there was dating Paul (I think that was his first name) Britton. His father had been killed earlier that year while leaving his Office by someone convinced that he was being told to kill Paul's dad because he was performing abortions. Now whether you or for against abortion is not the point. The point is that this man, listening to the same religious doctrine as hundreds of thousands of other people decided that "God" wanted him to take someone else's life. None of those other people got that message, even Jeb Bush, who is pretty conservative, didn't have a problem signing the order to off this guy.

He was nuts, just like the individuals you are referring too. Hell Charles Manson got the idea to kill most of his victims from the Beatles White Album. That didn't make everyone who listened to the Beatles killers nor make the Beatles and people who played their records responsible did it? No, of course not.

In my option the hate mongers are going to find someone to preach their hate, whether that be Christian, Muslem, Pagan or Nationalistic rethoric... it's the individuals who are touched, and who are responsible for misinterperting the message... not the message in and of itself.

Marb

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 9, 2004, 5:31 pm

Right. You are doing exactly what I said. You are ignoring the hatred preached by your religion and absolving yourself, your religion, and Christian's everywhere from the actions of Christians who kill for Christian beliefs simply by saying - "well, true Christians wouldn't do that. They must have missed the message."

Well, its an easy message to miss. You preach hatred towards a few select groups and expect that no one will misunderstand the subtle difference between hate the sin, love the sinner? You would have to be an idiot, or someone who wants to lie to themselves so they can continue to support instututes of hate, to believe that.

Your exampes are all people who are insane. They are hearing voices telling them to kill. that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about perfectly normal, sane people who have listened to messages of hate since they were very young. It should not be terribly suprising to anyone that many of these folks grow up and turn that hate into violence.

Of course the killers themselves are the ones responsible for their own actions. Of course the church is (well, usually anyway) not preaching the gays should be killed. They are preaching that they are going to Hell, that homosexuality is to be hated, etc. What a shock that some people don't get the "true message."

Or maybe they are.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » March 9, 2004, 5:54 pm

I'm really not sure what Christian church you are referring too but I've never EVER been in a Church that preached Hate. I have seen some radical groups on the History Channel... but those weren't mainstream Christian groups.

The whole idea that you are putting forth, that because people are going to hell or people think they are going to hell they should hate them is the most Anti-Christian things I have ever heard yet you are attributing them to "mainstream" Christanity. If a Christian believes that someone is going to Hell their main focus should be to keep them from going to hell, not send them their faster or turn them they other way.

I personally don't preach Hate towards ANY group, in my understanding Christanity forbids that...

What "groups" are you saying that people are preaching Hate about? I'm just curious...

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » March 9, 2004, 6:09 pm

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote:or that He, if He does exist, has a pretty fucked up sense of humor.

He does, look at the platypus

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 9, 2004, 6:24 pm

Are you trying to tell me that Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell, Louis Sheldon, and Pope John Paul II to name four that pop immediately into my head, are not mainstream Christians?

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » March 9, 2004, 7:53 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:Right. You are doing exactly what I said. You are ignoring the hatred preached by your religion and absolving yourself, your religion, and Christian's everywhere from the actions of Christians who kill for Christian beliefs simply by saying - "well, true Christians wouldn't do that. They must have missed the message."

Well, its an easy message to miss. You preach hatred towards a few select groups and expect that no one will misunderstand the subtle difference between hate the sin, love the sinner? You would have to be an idiot, or someone who wants to lie to themselves so they can continue to support instututes of hate, to believe that.

Your exampes are all people who are insane. They are hearing voices telling them to kill. that's not what I am talking about. I am talking about perfectly normal, sane people who have listened to messages of hate since they were very young. It should not be terribly suprising to anyone that many of these folks grow up and turn that hate into violence.

Of course the killers themselves are the ones responsible for their own actions. Of course the church is (well, usually anyway) not preaching the gays should be killed. They are preaching that they are going to Hell, that homosexuality is to be hated, etc. What a shock that some people don't get the "true message."

Or maybe they are.

Dar, who is the hater here?
You are. You paint all Christians with the same brush. You make unfounded and inflamatory statements and preach them as the Gayspel.

You have drawn a comparison between Muslim extremists and Christians as they impact your little part of the world. Guess what my friend there is no comparison. In terms of your persecution and the deaths of thousands of innocent people there is no comparison. You are talking about several mentally disturbed individuals who have killed "fags" and what claimed they were doing it in the name of God?? Where is your proof that mainstream Christians are sharpening their swords and loading bullets?

I guess all your vaunted logic and calculated responses go out the window when bigotted and ignorant opinion take over.

Cheers

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 9, 2004, 8:02 pm

I love Christians, I just hate Christianity.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » March 9, 2004, 8:07 pm

Xzion wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Xzion wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Akaran_D wrote:Different thing, but the hate is the same, just aligned to match your own personal beliefs.
Passion and conviction do not equal hate. I don't hate anything but people who do harm to others and who live their lives without thinking about how their actions affect the masses.

Label me. Call me a racist. Call me full of hate. But, it doesn't make it so. Only in your stubborn and close minded skulls.
If this is so, then why does your party so vigorusly support, supporting Israel.

Want to win the war on terror? I'l give some advice right now...STOP FUCKING TAKING SIDES AGAINST THE NATIVE ARABS AND FUNDING ISRAEL.
How would you like it if the U.N. told you one day that your property belonged to Native Americans? Even though your family has lived on the same land for over 300 years, they were there 1st. So the UN tells you that you have 3 months to evacuate, would you not be pissed off?
I don't speak for a particular party. I'm registered republican because their mind set more closely relates to what I think is right. But, they have a lot of fucked up ideas just like the Dems. I just feel the core of the Dems and their philosophies and ideas are destroying and will further destroy our society.
In europe, in which i have lived in for more then 1/3rd of my life, "society" is MUCH more liberal. In most of western europe at least there is much less religion, MANY more titties on TV, legalization or decriminalization of "light" drugs, and a totally uncensored media.
In europe there is also a lot less crime, a lot more maturity and respect regarding sexuality in all its forms, a higher quality of life,less drug abuse, and an overall more, at least socially free society.
In this bible beating border line nazi, hypocritical shithole of a society there is a lot more crime in almost all aspects that there can be.
We are closer to Iraq and Saudi Arabia as far as a "free society" goes then to europe, and tell me...what system works?

I notice you have not responded to this post, being that you believe that "Dems and their philosophies and ideas are destroying and will further destroy our society".
Smart of you not to respond on a subject in which you know you are wrong.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » March 9, 2004, 9:43 pm

Xzion wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Akaran_D wrote:Different thing, but the hate is the same, just aligned to match your own personal beliefs.
Passion and conviction do not equal hate. I don't hate anything but people who do harm to others and who live their lives without thinking about how their actions affect the masses.

Label me. Call me a racist. Call me full of hate. But, it doesn't make it so. Only in your stubborn and close minded skulls.
If this is so, then why does your party so vigorusly support, supporting Israel.

Want to win the war on terror? I'l give some advice right now...STOP FUCKING TAKING SIDES AGAINST THE NATIVE ARABS AND FUNDING ISRAEL.
How would you like it if the U.N. told you one day that your property belonged to Native Americans? Even though your family has lived on the same land for over 300 years, they were there 1st. So the UN tells you that you have 3 months to evacuate, would you not be pissed off?

Actually, I would very much welcome it. The U.S. government was committing large scale genocide against the Native Americans for many years. They were also paying cash to settlers for scalps of the Indians (which is actually the foundation of the myth that Indians were savages that scalped the white men....in reality it was practiced by the Mexican and U.S. governments so they could pay people who killed Indians).

Second point.... jewish people had lived on that land for thousands of years before they were removed forcefully. There was an act in the 1940's ( if I recall all this without looking it all up) by the BRITISH government to set up a territory for Israel. The U.S. in this case has supported Israel to prevent a genocide (most likely for the Arab states at this point). If we flat out left that area today, Israel would rip Palestine apart and kill every person in it before you could say "hooray for John kerry". It would end up as an all out Arab/israel war. It would not go well for either side....and I think Israel would absolutely devestate most of the surrounding coutries before they started dropping nukes and biologicals on each other. The U.S. is taking a pretty bad rap and shouldering a lot of the blame for problems in the middle east....although if we left it would erupt in ways that would be much worse than it is right now.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » March 9, 2004, 10:22 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Xzion wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Akaran_D wrote:Different thing, but the hate is the same, just aligned to match your own personal beliefs.
Passion and conviction do not equal hate. I don't hate anything but people who do harm to others and who live their lives without thinking about how their actions affect the masses.

Label me. Call me a racist. Call me full of hate. But, it doesn't make it so. Only in your stubborn and close minded skulls.
If this is so, then why does your party so vigorusly support, supporting Israel.

Want to win the war on terror? I'l give some advice right now...STOP FUCKING TAKING SIDES AGAINST THE NATIVE ARABS AND FUNDING ISRAEL.
How would you like it if the U.N. told you one day that your property belonged to Native Americans? Even though your family has lived on the same land for over 300 years, they were there 1st. So the UN tells you that you have 3 months to evacuate, would you not be pissed off?
Actually, I would very much welcome it. The U.S. government was committing large scale genocide against the Native Americans for many years. They were also paying cash to settlers for scalps of the Indians (which is actually the foundation of the myth that Indians were savages that scalped the white men....in reality it was practiced by the Mexican and U.S. governments so they could pay people who killed Indians).

Second point.... jewish people had lived on that land for thousands of years before they were removed forcefully. There was an act in the 1940's ( if I recall all this without looking it all up) by the BRITISH government to set up a territory for Israel. The U.S. in this case has supported Israel to prevent a genocide (most likely for the Arab states at this point). If we flat out left that area today, Israel would rip Palestine apart and kill every person in it before you could say "hooray for John kerry". It would end up as an all out Arab/israel war. It would not go well for either side....and I think Israel would absolutely devestate most of the surrounding coutries before they started dropping nukes and biologicals on each other. The U.S. is taking a pretty bad rap and shouldering a lot of the blame for problems in the middle east....although if we left it would erupt in ways that would be much worse than it is right now.

Tell me this, with who's weapons would they bring this mass carnage to the arabs with?
Our weapons, our tactics and our training!
Without us Israel is just another festering peice of shit for the most part at least.
I would actually support creating and supporting a Palestinian State that would consist of most of modern day Israel. Israel wouldnt dare question the U.S.'s judgement, sure this would be a temporary set back, but it would allow us to pull the fuck out in a matter of years and leave that region alone...since we cant go back in time and correct our mistakes.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » March 9, 2004, 11:05 pm

since we cant go back in time and correct our mistakes

...exactly we can't...so we got the situation we are in now, from then Israel-USA, Many Arab nations-USSR. You look at the equiptment of say "Iraq" heheh the country the USA had mainly built up according to morons-ch-10 on this board. I dont see abrams tanks blown up or apache helicopters or f-16s in either Gulf war! ...I see ALMOST ALL soviet made equiptment(some french, chinese, Italian), hell maybe its secret USA equiptment made to look just like Soviet Equiptment that Bush 2 planted when he was in diapers. *SLAP* NO! its freakin Cold War Crap!!!! Many of mistakes were made through those years from both sides, and now its a shit hole to correct it. And any person saying do this and that IT will work, like they actually know the situation!!...blah blah blah has there head stuck up there ass so far there looking at there tonsils.

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » March 9, 2004, 11:52 pm

If in some bizarre universe the US pulled out of the mideast and allowed Israel a freehand in the region AND they were to goto town on all their neighbors (Egypt, whom they have a treaty with anyways), Syria, Jordan, Iran etc... a few things would happen.

First, the EU would not stand for it and would slap economic sanctions on Israel in no time, choking them off from their largest trading partners and crippling their economy. Combined with the lack of US financial support and Israel would collapse financially in a matter of months, faster if they attempted to sustain wide spread military action on multiple fronts.

As it stands, they already devote close to 9% of their GDP to defense, I *think* they are second only to North Korea.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fac ... l#Military

Next, while it is not likely they would have difficulty defeating the militaries of their neighboring countries, there are still a few problems.

Quick run down on what is in the area.

Egypt is the main military power in the area, but it's still a bit player using mostly Soviet era equipment which has been proven entirely ineffective against modern American hardware.

Syria is even worse off and would offer little resistance.

If Israel really wanted to get the ball rolling and went after Saudi Arabia, they would find a small but modern American equipped military waiting for them. However, Israel's size and training should prove decisive but with a high casualty count.

Iran is another Soviet supported military and would likely be easily defeated in the field.

The wild card would be Turkey's role. As it is, Turkey and Israel have several agreements so the two locking horns is highly unlikely, but if it were, the military in Turkey could go toe to toe with Israels, plus there is the NATO issue.

Finally, while they would likely be able to defeat their neighbors, we learned in Iraq that occupation is a bitch. Do you think Israel, even with its reserves called up, could sustain a prolonged occupation in 100% hostile territory?

Keep in mind this is the same Israel that got ran out of Lebanon by Hezballah.

Large militaries look nice on paper, but at this point in time the United States is the ONLY country with the ability to project power anywhere it damn well pleases.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » March 10, 2004, 12:12 am

One of my best friend was an Army Ranger then in the Special Forces. He has had training from the British, French, German and Israeli SF units. From his words the French was a joke, easier than our Basic Traning but the German and British training was as good with some pluses and some minuses to ours. However the training in Israel was inhuman. When his group got back over half the unit was given 12 weeks "rest" to recouperate from training. In his opinion they have some of the baddest MFers in the world... Not saying that religious zelots are something easily reconed with but I'm quite sure Bin Laden's training camps don't compare... just thoughts to ponder.

Marb

PS - From the thread derailment... I would like to see Hate quotes from Pat Robertson, The Pope, Jerry Fallwell and whoever that other guy is to support the theory. Not quotes saying someone is going to hell but quotes advocating Hate and or Violence

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » March 10, 2004, 12:41 am

Hey, don't we get their oil now?

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 10, 2004, 12:59 am

I'm not going to spend my night wading through pages of quotes from these jokers, but here's a selection of a few:

"It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into (our) institutions (today) are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation."--Pat Robertson, New York Magazine, August 18, 1986

There's one preaching violence.

Here's some other less violent, but equally disturbing, quotes:

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" --from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 218.

---

"The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening." -- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, Dec. 30, 1981

---

"Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history."--Pat Robertson, 1993 interview with Molly Ivins

---

talking about apartheid South Africa) "I think 'one man, one vote,' just unrestricted democracy, would not be wise. There needs to be some kind of protection for the minority which the white people represent now, a minority, and they need and have a right to demand a protection of their rights."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 3/18/92

---

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians." -- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992

---

(talking about Planned Parenthood) "It is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism-everything that the Bible condemns."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 4/9/91

---

"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/8/92

---

"I am bound by the laws of the United States and all 50 states...I am not bound by any case or any court to which I myself am not a party...I don't think the Congress of the United States is subservient to the courts...They can ignore a Supreme Court ruling if they so choose."--Pat Robertson, Washington Post, June 27,1986)

---

"There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore." --Pat Robertson, November 1993 during an address to the American Center for Law and Justice

---

"Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/21/93

And here's a non-Pat one that just made me shiver in fear:

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."--Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue, The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 8-16-93

And finally a quote from Bush. I don't know which one

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."-- George Bush

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » March 10, 2004, 1:12 am

That quote's from Bush 1.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 10, 2004, 1:26 am

An interesting sidenote for Midnyte: based upon your sentence calling the Islamic God (referred to as Allah, or "God") imaginary and fake, I thought I should clue you into a little fact: Muhammed received visions in 700 a.d. from God teaching him the right way to practice religion on Earth. These visions he recorded on paper and spread the word around what would later become Saudi Arabia. He didn't have to write a lot down, however, because this God also told him to use a reference in the Torah. In days long past, before the Crusades, Jews and Christians could not be enslaved because they were "People of the Book". Islamic society had strict laws on slavery (much more humane than what would later be developed in Western Europe) and it was forbidden to enslave an Islamic, Christian, or Jewish person because of their affiliation to-- you guessed it--God. The Crusades, which were used as a political tool to unite countries in Europe under a banner of one monarch, turned the goodwill of Islamic countries against Europeans, and so the ban against enslaving the "People of the Book" was lifted. However, for that four hundred year time, enslaving a fellow "Allah" worshipper was unacceptable.
A long winded explanation of a simple statement: by calling Allah imaginary and fake you also claim that Christianity is a myth, as both religions follow the same God. Please do not destroy your own argument before you finish presenting it, credibility is destroyed this way.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » March 10, 2004, 1:58 am

Excellent point Kaldaur!

As I Christian... heh maybe I should use the term Follower of Christ as those Pat Robertson quotes scare the shit out of me, I believe that Sins were forgiven and the New Kingdom of God on Earth was ushered in when Jesus rose from the Dead, fulfilling God's promise. I believe that Jesus was more than a mere prophet of God, he was God incarnate on Earth and the first of many "sons of man" to be granted access to the Kington, he paved the way for the rest of us.

However I also believe that both Muslem and Jews worship the same "God." The difference in our beliefs is that the Jews believe that their Messiah is yet to come and the Muslem believe that Jesus was only a prophet and his true message wasn't understood or man was incabable of following it. Thus Muhammed was sent his visions to return to the days and laws similar to the Old Testament.

Most Arab's trace their ancestory and belief in the One God back to Ishmael, Abraham's first born son from his wife's maidservent. While most Jews and Christians trace their beliefs back to Issac, Abraham's first son with his wife... The Key here of course is Abraham who God made the covenant with for his chosen people.

Just by reading the OT it's easy to see that Israel weren't the best "children" per se. Who knows, maybe Muhammed is correct and maybe Islam is the true chosen religion of God. I do not believe that, but I do consider those faiths my brethern moreso than any others.

It's interesting to note though that what I consider true Christanity has many commonalities with Buddhism, of corse Buddhism really isn't about God, it's more of a way of life, but that's another thread...

On another note I can't really put into words how much those statements Dregor posted frighten me... not just from a Religious standpoint but from a political standpoint as well. I said in another thread that Conservative Republican Christians scare me... those quotes are specific examples of that. Why? Because while they want to tell you exactly what you CAN or CAN'T do, they don't seem to want to help anyone less fortunate either (unless they are in some African country or something), in America everyone should be able to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps!" or some stupid idea like that. Sure, there ARE a lot of people in this country just loafing, living off the system but there are JUST as many people who truly just need help to get going... most of those Televangelist spend more time preying on those (note not Praying) people's false hopes IMHO...

Marb

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 10, 2004, 3:57 am

Kaldaur wrote:An interesting sidenote for Midnyte: based upon your sentence calling the Islamic God (referred to as Allah, or "God") imaginary and fake, I thought I should clue you into a little fact: Muhammed received visions in 700 a.d. from God teaching him the right way to practice religion on Earth. These visions he recorded on paper and spread the word around what would later become Saudi Arabia. He didn't have to write a lot down, however, because this God also told him to use a reference in the Torah. In days long past, before the Crusades, Jews and Christians could not be enslaved because they were "People of the Book". Islamic society had strict laws on slavery (much more humane than what would later be developed in Western Europe) and it was forbidden to enslave an Islamic, Christian, or Jewish person because of their affiliation to-- you guessed it--God. The Crusades, which were used as a political tool to unite countries in Europe under a banner of one monarch, turned the goodwill of Islamic countries against Europeans, and so the ban against enslaving the "People of the Book" was lifted. However, for that four hundred year time, enslaving a fellow "Allah" worshipper was unacceptable.
A long winded explanation of a simple statement: by calling Allah imaginary and fake you also claim that Christianity is a myth, as both religions follow the same God. Please do not destroy your own argument before you finish presenting it, credibility is destroyed this way.

Very interesting stuff. But, I was calling all Gods fake.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 10, 2004, 6:25 pm

I understand your stance, Midnyte, in that you assert there are no Gods that rule over the universe. Would you agree, then, that atheism is a form of religion, just the same as Islam and Hebrew? At the focal point is the existence of a God: atheists believe one does not exist, where other religions believe there is such a being. It's always been my belief that me, being a little human who can't even pass his macro economics course, has no right to say whether or not there is a God in the world. I've never been any good at faith, having only had people to draw experience from(faith, when used by humans, is a dangerous thing). I've never had any dealings with God, I don't think I will, but I don't consider myself qualified to deny Her existence simply because I haven't seen proof of Her being. If she does exist, great. If she doesn't, great. When I'm dead, if she does exist and there is a heaven, then hopefully I'll end up there. If she doesn't exist, and there's no heaven, then the minute I get hit by that eight-ton truck trying to make his shipment I won't really care anymore.
Anyway, I'm getting a little off topic. I understand that you don't believe in a god. What I was trying to point out is that this belief of yours and its adamant opposition to any argument to the contrary suggests a stubborness that will make you lose this debate. You don't believe in God? That's fine. Others do, and they have the exact same arguments as you to back up their statements. Whereas you look at the sun and see an act of combining protoplanets and cosmic dust, they see a miracle and a direct act from Her Divine Powerfulness. I can take a fact and use it to prove any point, as long as that point is relevant to the fact. The same goes for this argument.
Without understanding the debate on religion and the exact motives behind the Islamic extremists, you fall into ignorance and can join the others in the mindless mass who see a turban and think our enemy. Tell me, Midnyte, what is the difference between a terrorist and a patriot? Is it the way they fight? Is it the duration of time they fight, who they target, what their political objectives are? Or is it simply a matter of perspective? In 1776, the Revolutionary War began in America. We were a colony of Britain, and we no longer wished to be. We broke the law by separating ourselves from that nation. To the British, we were terrorists fighting an illegal war. To the people in the colonies, our armies were patriots, fighting a much more powerful foe with superior weaponry and a stronger domestic machine. All the colonists had was their "noble and true goals", to quote John Hancock.
Taking this and putting it into our current situation, what again is the difference between a patriot and terrorist? We have stationed troops in many different countries in the Middle East. Would we allow troops from the Iraqi Republican Guard to be stationed in Rhode Island? You have reasoned with yourself that a democracy forced upon a people eventually will right all the wrongs that were created by our arrogance in the region. "The best laid plans of men oft go astray."
I have a feeling there are some members of the current administration who rationalized to themselves that what we were doing in Iraq wasn't for oil, imperialism, globalization, outsourcing, etc. Those few members believed we were doing good in Iraq. However, the best of intentions don't change the fact that we invaded a country and enforced our system of government upon a people. No matter how you paint it, this is what happened. When America invades countries, attacking their armies and destroying their cities, do you think the citizens of that nation will throw down their arms, join hands with the Americans, and cry for the greatness of the Western world? Or will they take up arms against an invader who has no business there, fighting a war to defend their country?
The terrorists see us as the epitome of evil: a ruthless capitalistic machine bent on turning the world into a giant Starbucks. They have decided that to wage war against this machine is to do good in the name of Allah. To the Islamic people of the Middle East, they are patriots.
You wonder why the terrorists attack us, Midnyte? It is precisely because of your arguments. You quoted others as calling them 'animals" and "towelheads". Out of ignorance and an unwillingness to learn about their culture, we continue the road to fighting and loss of life. We don't understand the Middle East, and so we lash out against it. Until we learn to embrace them as brothers under one God, or as fellow humans beings united as a planet, the fighting will continue. For my part, I hope to see that vision someday in my old age. As long as intolerance can be found anywhere (including on a messageboard hidden under statements such as "I heard others say...insert racist statements here"), that vision will elude us. God or no God, patriot or terrorist, we have to understand them before we can begin to fix our problems.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 10, 2004, 6:33 pm

there either is or isnt a god.

saying "who am i to say" is a cop out. our opinions on the matter do not make the reality, do they?

God either exists or doesn't exist independently of the conclusion I come to on that score. But to say "i cannot fathom all the variables, therefor i will not draw a conclusion" is, to my way of thinking, silliness.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » March 10, 2004, 6:53 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lalanae wrote:clue: your God is just as imaginary
another clue: I don't have a God.

OMG YOU UNPATRIOTIC UNAMERICAN TRAITOR. YOU WILL HANG FOR TREASON YOU TERRORIST.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 10, 2004, 8:54 pm

But to say "i cannot fathom all the variables, therefor i will not draw a conclusion" is, to my way of thinking, silliness.

Why? It seems logical to me: if I don't know the answer, I'm not going to embarass myself by pretending to have an informed opinion.

When Chmee and Aaeemdican'tspellhisnamear start arguing about trade, I usually don't get involved. If for some reason, my specific opinion were to be called for, I could probably give you my general ideas about economics, but my specific knowledge is limited.

Do you think I should chime in with whatever elementary opinions I hold about the topic?

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » March 10, 2004, 9:57 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:I'm not going to spend my night wading through pages of quotes from these jokers, but here's a selection of a few:

"It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into (our) institutions (today) are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation."--Pat Robertson, New York Magazine, August 18, 1986
There's one preaching violence.

Here's some other less violent, but equally disturbing, quotes:

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" --from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 218.

---

"The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening." -- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, Dec. 30, 1981

---

"Just like what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, so liberal America is now doing to the evangelical Christians. It's no different. It is the same thing. It is happening all over again. It is the Democratic Congress, the liberal-based media and the homosexuals who want to destroy the Christians. Wholesale abuse and discrimination and the worst bigotry directed toward any group in America today. More terrible than anything suffered by any minority in history."--Pat Robertson, 1993 interview with Molly Ivins

---

talking about apartheid South Africa) "I think 'one man, one vote,' just unrestricted democracy, would not be wise. There needs to be some kind of protection for the minority which the white people represent now, a minority, and they need and have a right to demand a protection of their rights."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 3/18/92

---

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians." -- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992

---

(talking about Planned Parenthood) "It is teaching kids to fornicate, teaching people to have adultery, every kind of bestiality, homosexuality, lesbianism-everything that the Bible condemns."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 4/9/91

---

"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/8/92

---

"I am bound by the laws of the United States and all 50 states...I am not bound by any case or any court to which I myself am not a party...I don't think the Congress of the United States is subservient to the courts...They can ignore a Supreme Court ruling if they so choose."--Pat Robertson, Washington Post, June 27,1986)

---

"There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore." --Pat Robertson, November 1993 during an address to the American Center for Law and Justice

---

"Many of those people involved with Adolph Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals--the two things seem to go together."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/21/93
And here's a non-Pat one that just made me shiver in fear:

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."--Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue, The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 8-16-93
And finally a quote from Bush. I don't know which one

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."-- George Bush

people like Pat Robertson are what make this country have discrimination

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » March 10, 2004, 10:04 pm

Sueven wrote:
But to say "i cannot fathom all the variables, therefor i will not draw a conclusion" is, to my way of thinking, silliness.
Why? It seems logical to me: if I don't know the answer, I'm not going to embarass myself by pretending to have an informed opinion.

When Chmee and Aaeemdican'tspellhisnamear start arguing about trade, I usually don't get involved. If for some reason, my specific opinion were to be called for, I could probably give you my general ideas about economics, but my specific knowledge is limited.

Do you think I should chime in with whatever elementary opinions I hold about the topic?

He probably thinks you should continue to not give your opinion voluntarily if that were the case, unlike others.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » March 10, 2004, 10:18 pm

Yeah. I guess there's a distinction between not having an opinion and understanding that your opinion is not well informed.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » March 11, 2004, 2:40 am

Well Voronwe, my point on the matter was that because I don't know one way or the other whether God exists or not, I'm not qualified to answer. It's like the question of aliens existing in space. With the new information that Mars had water, my hopes are up as to the possibility of there being other life in the universe besides our own. But will I state for a fact that this life exists? Of course not. I don't have proof one way or the other. Does this make me a copout, by refusing to put forth an opinion that has no basis in fact and is a simple wish? I hope not.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 11, 2004, 6:51 am

Do you think I should chime in with whatever elementary opinions I hold about the topic?

With Economics the answer is knowable (this word is (R) and (TM) me) given sufficient study. All the study in the world won't answer the question "Is there a god?". I think that's an important difference.
So, given that nobody will ever really know the answer go ahead and pick one of your own. Whichever suits you. Go on!

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 7:09 am

The question "Is ther a God?" is impossible to answer in the negative. A positive answer is theorethically possible, but a negative answer to such an open ended question can never be reached. There has to be a non-zero probability that the answer is "yes" no matter how much knowledge the human race ever obtains. So answering that question emphatically "no" would be idiocy.

That, however, is a very different question from "Does the God presented in the Bible exist?" That is a cognizable question, since the Bible itself defines the parameters of, and limits the definition of, "God." Careful inspection of the Bible, on its own terms, makes it easy to reach an answer of "no." (It is also possible, though not through reason, only through faith, to reach an answer of "yes").

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » March 11, 2004, 7:55 am

The question "Is ther a God?" is impossible to answer in the negative. A positive answer is theorethically possible, but a negative answer to such an open ended question can never be reached. There has to be a non-zero probability that the answer is "yes" no matter how much knowledge the human race ever obtains. So answering that question emphatically "no" would be idiocy.

Philosophical hair-splitting aside, I think it's perfectly reasonable to equate a total lack of evidence with non-existence.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » March 11, 2004, 8:50 am

Aaeamdar wrote:The question "Is ther a God?" is impossible to answer in the negative. A positive answer is theorethically possible, but a negative answer to such an open ended question can never be reached. There has to be a non-zero probability that the answer is "yes" no matter how much knowledge the human race ever obtains. So answering that question emphatically "no" would be idiocy.

That, however, is a very different question from "Does the God presented in the Bible exist?" That is a cognizable question, since the Bible itself defines the parameters of, and limits the definition of, "God." Careful inspection of the Bible, on its own terms, makes it easy to reach an answer of "no." (It is also possible, though not through reason, only through faith, to reach an answer of "yes").

My only question is "when i die, do i become something more then nothingness?" Hell if I do, then its irrelavent to me weather or not there is a "higher power"

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 4:34 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:The question "Is ther a God?" is impossible to answer in the negative.

Sure, but to assume said existence without anything more than anecdotal evidence is patently unreasonable. It's identical to accepting to urban folklore as truth.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 11, 2004, 4:46 pm

there is no evidence that I am not God

therefore i am God

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 5:05 pm

Voronwë wrote:there is no evidence that I am not God

therefore i am God

while I might prefer you to the hebraic old testament god.../veto

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 5:19 pm

Sure, but to assume said existence without anything more than anecdotal evidence is patently unreasonable. It's identical to accepting to urban folklore as truth.

I absolutly agree with this. Even more insane, I would argue, when faced with a particular god and so much evidence that that god doe snot exist, to continue to professes his existance none-the-less. However, the complaint that proclaiming lack of knowledge was somehow a cop out, when in fact, it is the most honest thing that can be said. Or perhaps the most honest thing to be said is "that is not worht discussing, because it is not knowable."

Again, as to the Judeo-Christain god, there is much to discuss, as we have a record and can evaluate its truth.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » March 11, 2004, 5:20 pm

vn_Tanc wrote:
The question "Is ther a God?" is impossible to answer in the negative. A positive answer is theorethically possible, but a negative answer to such an open ended question can never be reached. There has to be a non-zero probability that the answer is "yes" no matter how much knowledge the human race ever obtains. So answering that question emphatically "no" would be idiocy.
Philosophical hair-splitting aside, I think it's perfectly reasonable to equate a total lack of evidence with non-existence.

Aye.

Saying faith lets you know hs is there, sounds like stuff those in power need you to believe so they stay in business.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » March 11, 2004, 5:45 pm

Voronwë wrote:there is no evidence that I am not God

therefore i am God

I've been saying that for years. Anyone with your post count must be omnipresent!

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » March 11, 2004, 5:48 pm

What's really sad is what a mockery of freedom this constitution really is. The constitution itself is written specifically to prevent democracy and freedom because it is constructed so that the USA's most potent political adversaries in Iraq (the majority) don't gain too much control. Instead the constitution limits and distributes power among various groups who would never come close to being an equal representation of the population in the country. These smaller groups are of course grateful for the opportunity to represent themselves in Iraq which of course makes them easier to manipulate.

An equivalent to the Iraq constitution right now would be if the US constitution was re-written by racial and religious minorities with an agenda to take power away from the white christian population who currently has a stranglehold on it. It would be like giving 20% of control to the whites and 20% to the black population and 20% to hispanics and 20% to asians and 20% to jews.

Were the constitution written to allow basic freedom and democracy then the shi'ite majority in Iraq would very quickly gain control of the country and probably start an anti-US/anti-west theocracy under shariah law.

But of course to the average moron who reads fox news like midnyte they just see the word "constitution"and bust a nut all over their keyboards because the only context they know it in is to equate it to the US constitution.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » March 11, 2004, 6:00 pm

Aaeamdar wrote: Again, as to the Judeo-Christain god, there is much to discuss, as we have a record and can evaluate its truth.

Ahhh so your just arguing the coherence of the the construct...

I tend to ignore the construct to begin with since it is empirically nonsense.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » March 11, 2004, 6:05 pm

Absolutely. Merely, then, a difference in style. I start by conceding the construct.