History is your friend, try it out. In both cases, the US entered the war after viable threats against the US. We didn't enter the war simply to prevent other countries from being invades or to free suffering people.Dalmoth wrote:So we should sit and watch other countries be invaded and do nothing?
World War I we should have done nothing?
World War II we should have done nothing?
Is it your belief that as long as the rest of the world doesn't set foot on your soil they are free to do what they will?
Do you not believe that giving relief to suffering people alone is not lives? There also has to be some immediate threat against yourself to prompt action?
And people say we're a great society, feh. Great Society of the self maybe.
Edwards Out
- Lalanae
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Unofficial Canadian, Forbidden Lover of Pie, Jesus-Hatin'' Sodomite, President of KFC (Kyoukan Fan Club), hawt, perververted, intellectual submissive with E.S.P (Extra Sexual Persuasion)
Stop with the moronic BS.
We entered that war for many reasons, WMD was just one of about 10 reasons I heard...I watched and heard it over and over as we were building upto it...
Its idiotic for people to just say it was for this reason only and think there so elite and others are so stupid there gonna buy the shit hatred coming out of there mouth. You guys are lucky here cause this board is filled with this sick self hatred, but OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of the views here arent even close to reality in the US.
Im fine with the war on the fact that Saddam is a fanatical dictator alone that is responsible for hundreds of thousand to millions of people's lives, as I have always said. Now theres close to 50 million people in the middle east that have a chance for a free society, which will be very hard to accomplish like the USA was, and Im afraid there are too many ship jumpers in our country for it to happen for the long term. We are filled with to many self hating wimps..I for one will stay the coarse. Not since FDR and Abraham Lincoln was so much done for freedom.
We entered that war for many reasons, WMD was just one of about 10 reasons I heard...I watched and heard it over and over as we were building upto it...
Its idiotic for people to just say it was for this reason only and think there so elite and others are so stupid there gonna buy the shit hatred coming out of there mouth. You guys are lucky here cause this board is filled with this sick self hatred, but OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of the views here arent even close to reality in the US.
Im fine with the war on the fact that Saddam is a fanatical dictator alone that is responsible for hundreds of thousand to millions of people's lives, as I have always said. Now theres close to 50 million people in the middle east that have a chance for a free society, which will be very hard to accomplish like the USA was, and Im afraid there are too many ship jumpers in our country for it to happen for the long term. We are filled with to many self hating wimps..I for one will stay the coarse. Not since FDR and Abraham Lincoln was so much done for freedom.
or you could argue the argue and demonstrate exactly how they are better off now than they were a year ago. but I have to warn you, if you say "they are free now!" I will hunt you down and kill you with my bare hands.Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Wow. Enough said. I am never going to even honor your stupidity any longer. You have just achieved max supidity (255). Grats you stupid cunt.
While the people of Iraq aren't worrying about being taken in the middle of the night to some torture camp, which I agree 100% is better now than it was, they ARE worried right now about SOMETHING TO EAT
It's been a year and most of Iraq is still in ruins... IF we don't do something to stablize the country soon we are going to have even more serious issues on our hands... So yes in some ways Iraq is much better, and in other ways it's horrifically worse...
I do find it quite funny that no matter how well things went with Clinton, how good the economy was, how well World Politics went, no matter how well they PERSONALLY did during his administration... some people continually go back to him getting a blow job, then not wanting to come clean on a PERSONAL matter. It is and was no one's business if Bill got a blow in the White House, it had nothing to do with his ability to run this country except for possibly relaxing him a little so he didn't choke on pretzels while watching TV.
Until I have proof though, I won't call Bush a lier about the WMDs and the War... however it's not looking good right now with all the Halaburton scandels. We just recently found some MIGs burried in the desert when the wind changed, if you can hide MIGs, you can hide WMD.
If the question is posed, who do you trust more? Someone who we know lied about their sex life or someone who might be lying about things that killed a lot of people and might be giving unauthorized contracts for personal gain... I would have to choose the first. IMHO I really don't care what someone does with their willy and neither does the majority of the civilized world, only a few uptight conservatives in the US who are scared of their own sexuality would choose the trust the second person.
Bill got blow but was a great President. Hell Nixon got caught for much worse and DID loose the Presidency. However I don't think Nixon was a bad president either, in fact I think the opposite. He accomplished a lot, numberous Treaties with the USSR, brought about (rather slowly but still) the end of Vietnam and opened relations with China. That's a hell of lot IMHO.
Presidents, Ministers, Governors etc... will all make mistake they are only human remember. I don't ever believe that those who didn't get caught... were any better, they too were only human, it just never made the morning news...
Cheers!
Marb

I do find it quite funny that no matter how well things went with Clinton, how good the economy was, how well World Politics went, no matter how well they PERSONALLY did during his administration... some people continually go back to him getting a blow job, then not wanting to come clean on a PERSONAL matter. It is and was no one's business if Bill got a blow in the White House, it had nothing to do with his ability to run this country except for possibly relaxing him a little so he didn't choke on pretzels while watching TV.
Until I have proof though, I won't call Bush a lier about the WMDs and the War... however it's not looking good right now with all the Halaburton scandels. We just recently found some MIGs burried in the desert when the wind changed, if you can hide MIGs, you can hide WMD.
If the question is posed, who do you trust more? Someone who we know lied about their sex life or someone who might be lying about things that killed a lot of people and might be giving unauthorized contracts for personal gain... I would have to choose the first. IMHO I really don't care what someone does with their willy and neither does the majority of the civilized world, only a few uptight conservatives in the US who are scared of their own sexuality would choose the trust the second person.
Bill got blow but was a great President. Hell Nixon got caught for much worse and DID loose the Presidency. However I don't think Nixon was a bad president either, in fact I think the opposite. He accomplished a lot, numberous Treaties with the USSR, brought about (rather slowly but still) the end of Vietnam and opened relations with China. That's a hell of lot IMHO.
Presidents, Ministers, Governors etc... will all make mistake they are only human remember. I don't ever believe that those who didn't get caught... were any better, they too were only human, it just never made the morning news...
Cheers!
Marb
- Midnyte_Ragebringer
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How fast do you expect this process to be? You really need to take a step back and look realistically. It's one year. My god man, that's nothing.Marbus wrote:While the people of Iraq aren't worrying about being taken in the middle of the night to some torture camp, which I agree 100% is better now than it was, they ARE worried right now about SOMETHING TO EATIt's been a year and most of Iraq is still in ruins... IF we don't do something to stablize the country soon we are going to have even more serious issues on our hands... So yes in some ways Iraq is much better, and in other ways it's horrifically worse...
He lied under oath Marb. He didn't just "not want to admit it". He lied under oath. Maybe you don't hold anything sacred, but I believe it's important for America to hold somethings sacred if it wishes to remain a civilized society. /sigh, I just don't understand your laizee fairre attitude to everything. No shame, no consequences, nothing. Boggles my fucking mind.I do find it quite funny that no matter how well things went with Clinton, how good the economy was, how well World Politics went, no matter how well they PERSONALLY did during his administration... some people continually go back to him getting a blow job, then not wanting to come clean on a PERSONAL matter. It is and was no one's business if Bill got a blow in the White House, it had nothing to do with his ability to run this country except for possibly relaxing him a little so he didn't choke on pretzels while watching TV.
You're not going to do a whole lot in one year. You're fantasizing if you think any different.Marbus wrote:It's been a year and most of Iraq is still in ruins...
You Saddam lovers are forgetting that fag set oil wells on fire and purposefully destroyed the oil fields in Kuwait. We need to rebuild his destruction. Saddam was so obviously corrupt. Get a grip on your peace-sign t-shirt wearing, love bead wielding selves already. You so easily forget his invasion of Kuwait, paying off suicide bombers, and brutality against his own people.
I'd like to see the canadians treated like the Iraqi people were, invade Alaska via the sea in with their one submarine navy, and then offer to pay off the families of kids that bomb public areas in the United States ...then get back to me on how great Iraq was and that our actions were so wrong. For good measure, try to blow up the White House and fire scuds over the border at us.
One thing I would turn my back on is if Canadians treated the French Canadians like the Kurds.
- Midnyte_Ragebringer
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Ya know, I hate to feel this way, but if most Canadiens feel like the Canadiens retards on this boards, then I long for the day someone attacks and maybe even invades Canada, and it is us who saves them. I'm sure though, the miserable ingrates would hate us anyway. "You saved us from tyranny, but you killed people in the process. You evil American bastards!!!"Winnow wrote: I'd like to see the canadians treated like the Iraqi people were, invade Alaska via the sea in with their one submarine navy, and then offer to pay off the families of kids that bomb public areas in the United States ...then get back to me on how great Iraq was and that our actions were so wrong. For good measure, try to blow up the White House and fire scuds over the border at us.
One thing I would turn my back on is if Canadians treated the French Canadians like the Kurds.
don't lie. you actually enjoy feeling that way, the same way you enjoy your racism and bigotry. Most canadians feel the same way as hmmm about most of the world feels on the subject, oh and also half of the US. Those who support the war are a gigantic fucking minority who have been brainwashed to believe that it is ok to invade other countries for no other reason than simple disdain. I find it completely humorous that your morality allows for the most powerful man in the world to abuse his power, but condemns him from getting a fucking blow job.Ya know, I hate to feel this way, but if most Canadiens feel like the Canadiens retards on this boards, then I long for the day someone attacks and maybe even invades Canada
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
It not that I don't take lying under oath serously, I take it VERY serously. What I also take VERY serously is that it is something that shouldn't have ever been ASKED under oath. It had NOTHING to do with the Presidency NOR Whitewater which is what they were suppose to be doing with my tax dollars anyway. John Robert Starr wasted a lot of ALL our money, that I take VERY serously as well. And Clinton almost lost the Presdency over it, the system worked. It IS the principle of the situation and the overall event that has to be examined not just a single word answer that is important... that should be common sense IMHO.
I do take offense at your additude that I hold nothing sacred, that is far from the truth. I take very much sacred, especially how I treat people and how I expect people to act. I take responsibility for my actions and I expect others to do the same. From this board and my actions in game in regards to others and my word should speak for itself.
Nothing infuriates me more than some whiner saying "it's not their fault" from that standpoint I'm very conservative. And I agree with you 100% that we do need to take some things in this country sacred. Just because I don't think a man should have been asked about his sex life under oath dosen't mean I have some "laizee fairre" attitude.
I do consider myself politically liberal though, almost socialistic because truly that is what I feel my committments and my beliefs instruct me to do after years of searching. Sure I could be jump on the bandwagon and condem everyone who dosen't believe exactly like I do, tell them they were wrong and not being good Christians while I sit in a million dollar house all safe and sound, protected from the harsh realities of the outside world and society. That is my view, right or wrong, of most Conservative Republicans. Hypoctrits, Morally Conservative - "it's my way or the highway" and Politically Conservative "Free trade works, nevermind those familes with nothing to eat though, the system is A-OK!"
I don't have a million dollar house, or any house at all right now because I'm still renting. Why? because I have given too much away to my family and others. Likewise though I have always been helped by my friends and family when I was in need as well. I make enough money that almost all my friends are Republicans because they are "for our group, less taxes"... guess no matter what I make, I just don't see that as "my group" Because I don't OWN my house I also pay a LOT more taxes than anyone else I know... that's ok, I just want them to do something decent for someone else with them.
Of course Mid I'm not saying YOU fall into this group, heh I have no idea what your life is like IRL. The last paragraph is just thoughts in genearl and arean't directed at you or anyone else in particular.
Marb's view? - Don't judge, use common sense, take responsibility for your actions, help those who truly need it... and Keep your eyes open
Marb
I do take offense at your additude that I hold nothing sacred, that is far from the truth. I take very much sacred, especially how I treat people and how I expect people to act. I take responsibility for my actions and I expect others to do the same. From this board and my actions in game in regards to others and my word should speak for itself.
Nothing infuriates me more than some whiner saying "it's not their fault" from that standpoint I'm very conservative. And I agree with you 100% that we do need to take some things in this country sacred. Just because I don't think a man should have been asked about his sex life under oath dosen't mean I have some "laizee fairre" attitude.
I do consider myself politically liberal though, almost socialistic because truly that is what I feel my committments and my beliefs instruct me to do after years of searching. Sure I could be jump on the bandwagon and condem everyone who dosen't believe exactly like I do, tell them they were wrong and not being good Christians while I sit in a million dollar house all safe and sound, protected from the harsh realities of the outside world and society. That is my view, right or wrong, of most Conservative Republicans. Hypoctrits, Morally Conservative - "it's my way or the highway" and Politically Conservative "Free trade works, nevermind those familes with nothing to eat though, the system is A-OK!"
I don't have a million dollar house, or any house at all right now because I'm still renting. Why? because I have given too much away to my family and others. Likewise though I have always been helped by my friends and family when I was in need as well. I make enough money that almost all my friends are Republicans because they are "for our group, less taxes"... guess no matter what I make, I just don't see that as "my group" Because I don't OWN my house I also pay a LOT more taxes than anyone else I know... that's ok, I just want them to do something decent for someone else with them.
Of course Mid I'm not saying YOU fall into this group, heh I have no idea what your life is like IRL. The last paragraph is just thoughts in genearl and arean't directed at you or anyone else in particular.
Marb's view? - Don't judge, use common sense, take responsibility for your actions, help those who truly need it... and Keep your eyes open

Marb
- Dregor Thule
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I can't tell if any of this was a joke.Winnow wrote:You're not going to do a whole lot in one year. You're fantasizing if you think any different.Marbus wrote:It's been a year and most of Iraq is still in ruins...
You Saddam lovers are forgetting that fag set oil wells on fire and purposefully destroyed the oil fields in Kuwait. We need to rebuild his destruction. Saddam was so obviously corrupt. Get a grip on your peace-sign t-shirt wearing, love bead wielding selves already. You so easily forget his invasion of Kuwait, paying off suicide bombers, and brutality against his own people.
I'd like to see the canadians treated like the Iraqi people were, invade Alaska via the sea in with their one submarine navy, and then offer to pay off the families of kids that bomb public areas in the United States ...then get back to me on how great Iraq was and that our actions were so wrong. For good measure, try to blow up the White House and fire scuds over the border at us.
One thing I would turn my back on is if Canadians treated the French Canadians like the Kurds.
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mean Winnow is back! hooray
Last edited by Lalanae on March 4, 2004, 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lalanae
Burundi High Chancellor for Tourism, Sodomy and Pie
Unofficial Canadian, Forbidden Lover of Pie, Jesus-Hatin'' Sodomite, President of KFC (Kyoukan Fan Club), hawt, perververted, intellectual submissive with E.S.P (Extra Sexual Persuasion)
Burundi High Chancellor for Tourism, Sodomy and Pie
Unofficial Canadian, Forbidden Lover of Pie, Jesus-Hatin'' Sodomite, President of KFC (Kyoukan Fan Club), hawt, perververted, intellectual submissive with E.S.P (Extra Sexual Persuasion)
You say this as george bush's admin takes away our freedom at home...thats the irony behind it. I say this as libertarian comming from a republican backround who is pretty neutral on the liberal/conservative labels, but realistically this "free iraq" WILL NOT COME for at least 10-50 years. We cant shove western democracy in such a different cultures face and expect then to accept it.Sirton wrote:Stop with the moronic BS.
We entered that war for many reasons, WMD was just one of about 10 reasons I heard...I watched and heard it over and over as we were building upto it...
Its idiotic for people to just say it was for this reason only and think there so elite and others are so stupid there gonna buy the shit hatred coming out of there mouth. You guys are lucky here cause this board is filled with this sick self hatred, but OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of the views here arent even close to reality in the US.
Im fine with the war on the fact that Saddam is a fanatical dictator alone that is responsible for hundreds of thousand to millions of people's lives, as I have always said. Now theres close to 50 million people in the middle east that have a chance for a free society, which will be very hard to accomplish like the USA was, and Im afraid there are too many ship jumpers in our country for it to happen for the long term. We are filled with to many self hating wimps..I for one will stay the coarse. Not since FDR and Abraham Lincoln was so much done for freedom.
Iraq will be a hell hole and possibly in worse condition then it has been with Saddam in power for a long, long time. More innocent american soldiers will die for nothing.
If we wanted to "liberate" a county why not "liberate" a few african countrys that are in much worse condition then Iraq ever was.
-xzionis human mage on mannoroth
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Win, I'm going to assume you weren't included me in the "Saddam lovers" group...
Remeber I was for the war, getting a little worried now but I'm still think we did the right thing.
I also don't think much can be accomplished in a year... Hopefully no one on this board lacks the common sense to realize that you can't rebuild a country in a year... probably not really in 3. I think it will take at least 5. However I DO think we could be a little farther along than we are. No matter what someone's political affiliation I think we should be able to agree that with all the tension in the area this is going to be Key to our success.
IMHO we can't fix everything at once, we should all know that. So what we should have been doing over the course of this year is making sure we try to fix one issue for the people at large every couple of months. Maybe it's running water in a area, fix that and publicize the crap out of it... "Comming to an area near you, WATER!" or something... I just think we need to focus on keeping the people happy as much as possible if this is going to work.
As Sitron said above, a lot of people don't want to stay the course. We got into this and we need to complete it, but we need to do it RIGHT or we will end up with another Veitnam or worse... Keeping the American people apprised of the good thing that are happening for the Iraqi people is important as well to keep moving.
Marb

I also don't think much can be accomplished in a year... Hopefully no one on this board lacks the common sense to realize that you can't rebuild a country in a year... probably not really in 3. I think it will take at least 5. However I DO think we could be a little farther along than we are. No matter what someone's political affiliation I think we should be able to agree that with all the tension in the area this is going to be Key to our success.
IMHO we can't fix everything at once, we should all know that. So what we should have been doing over the course of this year is making sure we try to fix one issue for the people at large every couple of months. Maybe it's running water in a area, fix that and publicize the crap out of it... "Comming to an area near you, WATER!" or something... I just think we need to focus on keeping the people happy as much as possible if this is going to work.
As Sitron said above, a lot of people don't want to stay the course. We got into this and we need to complete it, but we need to do it RIGHT or we will end up with another Veitnam or worse... Keeping the American people apprised of the good thing that are happening for the Iraqi people is important as well to keep moving.
Marb
Last edited by Marbus on March 4, 2004, 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do you know why iraq invaded kuwait. Whats funny is its somewhat similar to why we invaded Iraq.Dregor Thule wrote:I can't tell if any of this was a joke.Winnow wrote:You're not going to do a whole lot in one year. You're fantasizing if you think any different.Marbus wrote:It's been a year and most of Iraq is still in ruins...
You Saddam lovers are forgetting that fag set oil wells on fire and purposefully destroyed the oil fields in Kuwait. We need to rebuild his destruction. Saddam was so obviously corrupt. Get a grip on your peace-sign t-shirt wearing, love bead wielding selves already. You so easily forget his invasion of Kuwait, paying off suicide bombers, and brutality against his own people.
I'd like to see the canadians treated like the Iraqi people were, invade Alaska via the sea in with their one submarine navy, and then offer to pay off the families of kids that bomb public areas in the United States ...then get back to me on how great Iraq was and that our actions were so wrong. For good measure, try to blow up the White House and fire scuds over the border at us.
One thing I would turn my back on is if Canadians treated the French Canadians like the Kurds.
Kuwait refused to cooperate in an international Oil treaty, and after several warnings and threats, Iraq invaded kuwait.
-xzionis human mage on mannoroth
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- Midnyte_Ragebringer
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The Dems and the Media may have their shit together better than ever before. Case in point, this board and the morons spewing out all the shit they hear on TV, almost verbatim. And they don't even know it.Markulas wrote:/derail. What Bush did was very Machiavellian and I hope everything ends up well in Iraq.
anyways....
What do people think of having Edwards out? Do you think Kerry or Edwards is an easier target for Bush?
I think the Dems and the Media will win in November. God help us.
Kerry is an easier target because he has been around longer, done more, and by extension done more 'wrong'.
the longer anybody is around the more likely they are to have made errors in judgement, etc.
i did love how the shitbag GOP advisor only had one thing to say about Edwards' speech as he left the race. That thing was "well he's a trial lawyer, so i expected it to sound like that".
anyway, the speech of course was actually really positive, uplifting, etc. The coolest moment was when Edwards 5(?) year old son on the stage kind of was getting antsy in his mother's arms. Edwards kind of stopped his speech, checked out the situation, realized his son wanted a "Edwards for president" sign to hold up (like all the people in the crowd had - kids are cool like that). So Edwards like "i think he wants a sign, could somebody hand him one?". Kid gets sign, kid is happy, everybody is happy, speech goes on without a hitch.
Maybe that doesnt really seem like much, but most political or professional people wouldnt have the poise to shift gears in such a deftful fashion, attend to their child, fix it without even losing the pace of the situation.
I thought it was cool. Oh yeah the reason John Edwards is not a trial lawyer anymore was not something he ever has made a big deal about. His oldest child died about 6 years ago, and that is the time that Edwards decided to stop being a multi-millionaire lawyer and be a public servant.
Anyway, it is par for the course for GOP rhetoric. The Democratic party has serious flaws, and there are justifiable complaints about the way the do some things, but nobody gets dirtier than the GOP in personal attacks.
They keep some real scumbags in their employ.
Ronald Reagan's favorite thing about his campaign's strategist Roger Ailes: (paraphrasing) "he has 2 speeds: attack and destroy".
the longer anybody is around the more likely they are to have made errors in judgement, etc.
i did love how the shitbag GOP advisor only had one thing to say about Edwards' speech as he left the race. That thing was "well he's a trial lawyer, so i expected it to sound like that".
anyway, the speech of course was actually really positive, uplifting, etc. The coolest moment was when Edwards 5(?) year old son on the stage kind of was getting antsy in his mother's arms. Edwards kind of stopped his speech, checked out the situation, realized his son wanted a "Edwards for president" sign to hold up (like all the people in the crowd had - kids are cool like that). So Edwards like "i think he wants a sign, could somebody hand him one?". Kid gets sign, kid is happy, everybody is happy, speech goes on without a hitch.
Maybe that doesnt really seem like much, but most political or professional people wouldnt have the poise to shift gears in such a deftful fashion, attend to their child, fix it without even losing the pace of the situation.
I thought it was cool. Oh yeah the reason John Edwards is not a trial lawyer anymore was not something he ever has made a big deal about. His oldest child died about 6 years ago, and that is the time that Edwards decided to stop being a multi-millionaire lawyer and be a public servant.
Anyway, it is par for the course for GOP rhetoric. The Democratic party has serious flaws, and there are justifiable complaints about the way the do some things, but nobody gets dirtier than the GOP in personal attacks.
They keep some real scumbags in their employ.
Ronald Reagan's favorite thing about his campaign's strategist Roger Ailes: (paraphrasing) "he has 2 speeds: attack and destroy".
cause yes if Bush wins reelection, maybe wwe will be thowing the 1st amendment (at least the free press part) on the scrapheap that contains the 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, 10th and 14th amendments thanks to his 1st term.I think the Dems and the Media will win in November. God help us.
Last edited by Voronwë on March 4, 2004, 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
- Dregor Thule
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- Drolgin Steingrinder
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To paraphrase Neil Gaiman: Midnyte, you're as stupid as a man who got his stupid at a 2 for 1 sale.Midnyte wrote:The Dems and the Media may have their shit together better than ever before. Case in point, this board and the morons spewing out all the shit they hear on TV, almost verbatim. And they don't even know it.
IT'S HARD TO PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT; SOMETHING IS WRONG
I'M LIKE THE UNCLE WHO HUGGED YOU A LITTLE TOO LONG
I'M LIKE THE UNCLE WHO HUGGED YOU A LITTLE TOO LONG
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I don't doubt that Iraq will be better for the lack of Saddam Hussein & Sons...perhaps if we had never funded his rise to power initially? Shouldn't we have stopped all funding once we realized he was using military force to quell dissent within his own country?...funding third world armies inevitably gets our ass in bed with dictators (Samosa, Pinochet, The Shah of Iran etc)...I am all about humanitarian aid but when you give cash to a third world dictator 9 times out of 10 hes gonna buy weapons...We need as a country to quit absolutely giving cash and or selling weapons to these people to begin with...If we want to send food we need to make damn sure that it is delivered to all the populace, not just the ruler and his friends...Winnow wrote:You Saddam lovers are forgetting that fag set oil wells on fire and purposefully destroyed the oil fields in Kuwait. We need to rebuild his destruction. Saddam was so obviously corrupt. Get a grip on your peace-sign t-shirt wearing, love bead wielding selves already. You so easily forget his invasion of Kuwait, paying off suicide bombers, and brutality against his own people.
Re: WMD's being the reason we went to war...nope I never thought that was the reason we went to war...But that was Bush's soapbox...fear the WMDs...He is the one who chose to play that record over and over...
But bombing the fuck out of a country's infrastructure to remove a regime from power will net you more enemies than friends...Individuals are far more likely to remember the american bomb that killed their brother than oh yeah those guys reconnected the water...I understand that bomb's cause unavoidable casualties to the nonmilitary populace...but you know who i'm gonna hate if one of those bombs kills my father, brother etc...and saying "I'm sorry" is not going to make me hate you less...
We need to flat get out of the war business to begin with...
Yes, the educated and understood are the morons here.Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:The Dems and the Media may have their shit together better than ever before. Case in point, this board and the morons spewing out all the shit they hear on TV, almost verbatim. And they don't even know it.
I think the Dems and the Media will win in November. God help us.
Everything that comes out of your mouth(or fingers in this case) is pure irony
It was all an extreme relation scenario except for the part about the French Canadians.Dregor Thule wrote:
I can't tell if any of this was a joke.
It's easy to criticize what's been done but your solution most likely wouldn't have worked (it doesn't matter what your solution was).
-give peace a chance
-send a strongly worded letter
-pray the problem goes away
-grow a beard, wrap your best linen around your head and join in the fun
-more sanctions on top of the 10 year old sanctions that didn't work
-Al Gore
-new legislation allowing a maximum height of 3 stories on new buildings
-wait for someone a little closer to you to die next terror attack
-consider terrorism as an acceptable form of death and party on dudes
-blame canada
- Dregor Thule
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-direct military efforts towards the actual terroristsWinnow wrote:It was all an extreme relation scenario except for the part about the French Canadians.Dregor Thule wrote:
I can't tell if any of this was a joke.
It's easy to criticize what's been done but your solution most likely wouldn't have worked (it doesn't matter what your solution was).
-give peace a chance
-send a strongly worded letter
-pray the problem goes away
-grow a beard, wrap your best linen around your head and join in the fun
-more sanctions on top of the 10 year old sanctions that didn't work
-Al Gore
-new legislation allowing a maximum height of 3 stories on new buildings
-wait for someone a little closer to you to die next terror attack
-consider terrorism as an acceptable form of death and party on dudes
-blame canada
-direct political efforts towards the people with the ACTUAL WMDs
-make a case to the UN that would justify an attack on Iraq
-anyone but GWB
-get your heads out of your asses
-keel over and die for thinking I don't care about 9/11
-blame quebec
Xzion:
As for democracy in the Middle East:
The same was said of Japan after WWII.....and look at the middle east and other partially Islamic countries now...there are a few roots of democracy in Iran, Turkey, Lebanon, Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Bosnia, India to name a few.
If America wants to convince Islamic societies that they should liberalize maybe we should stress that liberalization doesnt mean abandoning their heritage, but includes reaching back into the best of their own traditions. The modern Arab world isn't only relatively unfree when compared to the West but is actually quite unfree when compared to its own past. Saddams regime of Iraq, and some others, are monstrous by the standards of the West and of Islam too.
Many of them realize this and most of the Arab monarchies have been setting up elected parliaments or appointed assemblies. These aren't just emulations of Western democracies or capitulations to Western pressure, but are tied into Islamic history and their ideas of what a legitimate Islamic polity looks like.
As for going into African countries...well what the UN did for Rowanda shows how worthless and chicken shit of an organization they are. The US showed no leadership they ran out of Somalia with a few American deaths....
Hell after that Bin Laden even stated that was the turning point when he knew he could defeat America, because we would run before taking much death and we were a paper tiger. He even said his strategy would be to defeat us within have us defeat ourself, which is the only way we would loose the war on terrorism.
I personally would go into all the dictatorship cess pools clear em out with American forces and rebuild them with the UN and international funds, but thats me I hate dictatorships.
And also Soldier is a hero and is the reason for our freedom today, but they are also a soldier. They are not in the military for a free education it is not a welfare program. The life loss in Iraq has been astonishingly low. Look at History man! WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam ect. 500 deaths for as much as they have accomplished and as in little time that weve been there is amazing. Yes its an extremely hard and challenging task, but the only people I see acting like its gone to crap are those with agendas and those that spout the same demoralizing bs in order to hurt a president or another political party. Its quite sickening what Ive seen on places such as this board.
I never liked Bill Clinton, but Id never want him to be killed and if he was in this situation and did everything the same hed have my 100% support on it. Its not worth the risk of loosing this war..Ive been to many 3rd world countries and it could happen here like it happened to the Soviet Union or worse. Maybe Bin Laden is right and he will beat us within, because people are so blind with hatred for one person or another view point...Its like that view point says something and these others ravish em, like on this board. Freedom of speech hmmm yea yall really care about it.
Lastly taking our freedoms away at home...first off both parties voted for it. Second off its temp. and gets voted on by the congress every so often for reinstatement. Third it has busted up a few terrorist cells, which is better then more 9-11s and a trillion dollar hit to our economy from each attack. Fourth, its basically the same techniques they used to bust up the mafia its been used in our History without those supreme courts striking it down. Fifth the Supreme Court hasnt struck it down. Sixth, yes there will be some idiot that will step over the line....but we need to stop falling into the tales of the conspiracy theory idiots, or the paranoid, or the political hacks.
As far as the edwards stuff:
It doesnt matter much to me. I look at the political parties this way....There both corrupt on the most part. They both want POWER more than anything. The people in GENERAL that are more dependant on the gov't and not aswell off and the so called 'elite' vote democrat, and that is not what I am. They want power and thats the type of people they want...They wouldnt mind us all being dependant on the gov't for everything and having complete control. You can see it in the small regional areas they have total control over, poverty stricken areas atleast in my area. They've had control over those areas forever, they don't want to loose there last bastion of control. Keep em poor keep em dependent keep control. Thats why they are in the minority now, because the US has been doing good..they need positive vision(Edwards did have) and they need to stop being so dependant of themselves aswell.
As for democracy in the Middle East:
The same was said of Japan after WWII.....and look at the middle east and other partially Islamic countries now...there are a few roots of democracy in Iran, Turkey, Lebanon, Pakistan, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Bosnia, India to name a few.
If America wants to convince Islamic societies that they should liberalize maybe we should stress that liberalization doesnt mean abandoning their heritage, but includes reaching back into the best of their own traditions. The modern Arab world isn't only relatively unfree when compared to the West but is actually quite unfree when compared to its own past. Saddams regime of Iraq, and some others, are monstrous by the standards of the West and of Islam too.
Many of them realize this and most of the Arab monarchies have been setting up elected parliaments or appointed assemblies. These aren't just emulations of Western democracies or capitulations to Western pressure, but are tied into Islamic history and their ideas of what a legitimate Islamic polity looks like.
As for going into African countries...well what the UN did for Rowanda shows how worthless and chicken shit of an organization they are. The US showed no leadership they ran out of Somalia with a few American deaths....
Hell after that Bin Laden even stated that was the turning point when he knew he could defeat America, because we would run before taking much death and we were a paper tiger. He even said his strategy would be to defeat us within have us defeat ourself, which is the only way we would loose the war on terrorism.
I personally would go into all the dictatorship cess pools clear em out with American forces and rebuild them with the UN and international funds, but thats me I hate dictatorships.
And also Soldier is a hero and is the reason for our freedom today, but they are also a soldier. They are not in the military for a free education it is not a welfare program. The life loss in Iraq has been astonishingly low. Look at History man! WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam ect. 500 deaths for as much as they have accomplished and as in little time that weve been there is amazing. Yes its an extremely hard and challenging task, but the only people I see acting like its gone to crap are those with agendas and those that spout the same demoralizing bs in order to hurt a president or another political party. Its quite sickening what Ive seen on places such as this board.
I never liked Bill Clinton, but Id never want him to be killed and if he was in this situation and did everything the same hed have my 100% support on it. Its not worth the risk of loosing this war..Ive been to many 3rd world countries and it could happen here like it happened to the Soviet Union or worse. Maybe Bin Laden is right and he will beat us within, because people are so blind with hatred for one person or another view point...Its like that view point says something and these others ravish em, like on this board. Freedom of speech hmmm yea yall really care about it.
Lastly taking our freedoms away at home...first off both parties voted for it. Second off its temp. and gets voted on by the congress every so often for reinstatement. Third it has busted up a few terrorist cells, which is better then more 9-11s and a trillion dollar hit to our economy from each attack. Fourth, its basically the same techniques they used to bust up the mafia its been used in our History without those supreme courts striking it down. Fifth the Supreme Court hasnt struck it down. Sixth, yes there will be some idiot that will step over the line....but we need to stop falling into the tales of the conspiracy theory idiots, or the paranoid, or the political hacks.
As far as the edwards stuff:
It doesnt matter much to me. I look at the political parties this way....There both corrupt on the most part. They both want POWER more than anything. The people in GENERAL that are more dependant on the gov't and not aswell off and the so called 'elite' vote democrat, and that is not what I am. They want power and thats the type of people they want...They wouldnt mind us all being dependant on the gov't for everything and having complete control. You can see it in the small regional areas they have total control over, poverty stricken areas atleast in my area. They've had control over those areas forever, they don't want to loose there last bastion of control. Keep em poor keep em dependent keep control. Thats why they are in the minority now, because the US has been doing good..they need positive vision(Edwards did have) and they need to stop being so dependant of themselves aswell.
How's your reading comprehension? I didn't say anywhere that people didn't care about 911. I was here and know people cared on the Vault.
We've all got plans on how things would coulda shoulda been and how they can be in the future! I've got a plan to end world hunger and have us all riding in cold fusion cars on $0.01 per gallon fuel in five years as well.
a few thousand americans die in WTC and then a civilian in Iraq gets poked in the eye with some shrapnel...Holy shit! We are teh debil!
<Insert kyoukan picts of mangled Iraqi people here>
<insert winnow movies of tortured kuwaiti and iraqi people here>
<insert kyoukan stats on vietnam rape victims here>
<insert adex comment about diatribes here>
<insert plug for Vegas FF here>
</veto insert foot in mouth>
We've all got plans on how things would coulda shoulda been and how they can be in the future! I've got a plan to end world hunger and have us all riding in cold fusion cars on $0.01 per gallon fuel in five years as well.
a few thousand americans die in WTC and then a civilian in Iraq gets poked in the eye with some shrapnel...Holy shit! We are teh debil!
<Insert kyoukan picts of mangled Iraqi people here>
<insert winnow movies of tortured kuwaiti and iraqi people here>
<insert kyoukan stats on vietnam rape victims here>
<insert adex comment about diatribes here>
<insert plug for Vegas FF here>
</veto insert foot in mouth>
Last edited by Winnow on March 4, 2004, 11:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Dregor Thule
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Winnow I know you are not stupid but just relating these 2 things shows you at least subconsciously have linked 911 and Iraq. They are not related.Winnow wrote:a few thousand americans die in WTC and then a civilian in Iraq gets poked in the eye with some shrapnel...Holy shit! We are teh debil!
911 does not excuse Iraq. The US has killed many times the number of Iraqis as were lost in 911.
The US had the world at its beck and call after 911. Instead of using that the Bush administration twisted it to its own ends and squandered it.
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
-agreedForthe wrote:Winnow I know you are not stupid but just relating these 2 things shows you at least subconsciously have linked 911 and Iraq. They are not related.Winnow wrote:a few thousand americans die in WTC and then a civilian in Iraq gets poked in the eye with some shrapnel...Holy shit! We are teh debil!
911 does not excuse Iraq. The US has killed many times the number of Iraqis as were lost in 911.
The US had the world at its beck and call after 911. Instead of using that the Bush administration twisted it to its own ends and squandered it.
-tenfold! Ten eyes for an eye. (it's in the next bible revision that lalanae is editing as we speak)
-we didn't have anyone at our beck and call. The UN wouldn't even enforce their own sanctions
I'm not referring to 911 at all regarding enforcing the sanctions imposed on Iraq after the Gulf War.Sueven wrote:You do understand that we didn't have the international community at our beck and call because Iraq had nothing to fucking do with 9/11?
Military action that was actually linked to 9/11 would have most likely been supported.
kyoukan wrote:in what ways was the UN not enforcing its own economic sanctions on Iraq
Enforcing may be the wrong term as Iraq continuously failed to comply with the sanctions resulting in strongly worded letters to Iraq hoping that for some reason Iraq would all the sudden change their ways after 10 years due to the gazillionth warning from the UN.With all the international support of the United Nations, you'd think that the worldly body has some successes under its belt to warrant such trust. Hardly. Even Iraqis know that the UN has largely been a failure. In what amounts to a sure slap in the face, Iraqi Foreign Minister Hoshyar Zebari accused the UN of appalling inaction Tuesday, citing their inability to rescue Iraq from Saddam Hussein for many years.
Zebari said the United Nations had failed to help rescue Iraq from "a murderous tyranny" that lasted more than 35 years and "today we are unearthing thousands of victims in horrifying testament to that failure."
"The United Nations must not fail the Iraqi people again," Zebari said.
Could it be? The same body that failed the world over also failed in Iraq?
Failure to take appropriate action or failure to have a clue that Iraq was laughing at the UN fumbling around in paperwork and inaction would be a better way to put it.
kyoukan wrote:how do you fail to comply with a sanction?
A sanction is something that you give authority or permission to do. Doing something that isn't sanctioned is failing to comply. I'll tudor you on this stuff for cyber.The Security Council unanimously approved a tough new resolution-1441 (2002)-aimed at United Nations weapons inspectors returning to Iraq. Following eight weeks of intensive negotiations, the resolution allowed the 15-member Council to speak with a united voice and send a clear signal to Iraq that it has a "final opportunity" to disarm, and also warned of "serious consequences" if Iraq failed to comply.
you don't even know what a fucking sanction is in the context it is used by the UNSC towards Iraq. the word you are looking for is "resolution"
don't presume to lecture me on international affairs when you don't even know what the words mean, you collosal retard.
it is impossible for a country to defy an economic sanction. it is up to the country or governing body and it's allies to uphold it for themselves.
don't presume to lecture me on international affairs when you don't even know what the words mean, you collosal retard.
it is impossible for a country to defy an economic sanction. it is up to the country or governing body and it's allies to uphold it for themselves.
back from lunch
The international development secretary, Clare Short, placed a slightly different emphasis on yesterday's vote, saying conference had voted for everything to go through the UN.
Asked what would happen if there was not a new UN resolution, she said: "The conference is insisting that the government must act through the UN. The government is accepting that position".
She added she would be staggered if there was no new UN resolution, but she did not know if there would be two separate resolutions, the first demanding President Saddam comply with sanctions and the second authorising military action if he failed to respond. She also insisted it was absolutely clear that it was not part of government policy to seek the overthrow of the Saddam regime.
Each time Clinton orders a military buildup, threatening Iraq with an air strike and then capitulating by accepting, once again, Hussein's pledge to comply with sanctions, he is perpetuating a cycle of hollow threats. Clinton is careening toward a serious loss of credibility for the Unites States if he doesn't break the cycle at Saddam's next breach.
Iraq owes Russia $7 billion dollars, which cannot be settled until United Nations sanctions against Iraq are lifted, and influential Russian oil and gas companies regard Iraq as a potential lucrative market. Significantly, Primakov has never urged Saddam to comply with sanctions or to permit adequate weapon inspections. He has however, consistently represented Saddam to his Russian constituencies, the United Nations and Western media as the victimised party.
Bush brought the case to the U.N. this fall, and after much debate, the U.N. said that Iraq must comply with sanctions and must allow inspectors in the country monitor its compliance. If Iraq does not, the U.N. will meet again and decide if war is justified.
9/11 has something to do with it if your the commander and chief.....It changed the status of what you do to a possible threat to your country.
According to the worlds intelligence Iraq was a looming threat and because 9/11 happened the commander and chief decided to do something about it before it became immediate threat according to world intellegence. IF your mind was even somewhat middle ground and you personally saw all the intelligence he was seeing and this was after 9/11 it would more than likely be a hard call for you. Congress saw the intelligence and from both parties they strongly supported giving the commander and chief authority and spouted many of the exact same lines from former Presidents of what they knew.
The only difference now is they now waffle about it and are like BUT BUT BUT, but the only BUT is there are recordings and videos of speeches, that you will see in future commercials of Kerry saying the exact things Bush was saying. There are quotes of his I thought were Bush's at first and was totally surprised to find out they were Kerry's with his stance now. He was for authorizing the power for war and was bringing up WMD big time from the same intelligence Bush saw, hell maybe even less. Its easy to play monday night quarter back.
The war is Saddams fault he could of lifted all his bs he was doing after 12 years like KADAFI has(Hell his country was in no way as powerful as Iraq and he had WMD programs), so many parts of the world that were paranoid after 9/11 could have some relief of a potential threat. Im actually glad Saddam didn't and I'm happy as Hell that POS is out of power and the 300,000 mass graves and all the other war crimes he did will be brought up in trial this summer. And yea close before the election
According to the worlds intelligence Iraq was a looming threat and because 9/11 happened the commander and chief decided to do something about it before it became immediate threat according to world intellegence. IF your mind was even somewhat middle ground and you personally saw all the intelligence he was seeing and this was after 9/11 it would more than likely be a hard call for you. Congress saw the intelligence and from both parties they strongly supported giving the commander and chief authority and spouted many of the exact same lines from former Presidents of what they knew.
The only difference now is they now waffle about it and are like BUT BUT BUT, but the only BUT is there are recordings and videos of speeches, that you will see in future commercials of Kerry saying the exact things Bush was saying. There are quotes of his I thought were Bush's at first and was totally surprised to find out they were Kerry's with his stance now. He was for authorizing the power for war and was bringing up WMD big time from the same intelligence Bush saw, hell maybe even less. Its easy to play monday night quarter back.
The war is Saddams fault he could of lifted all his bs he was doing after 12 years like KADAFI has(Hell his country was in no way as powerful as Iraq and he had WMD programs), so many parts of the world that were paranoid after 9/11 could have some relief of a potential threat. Im actually glad Saddam didn't and I'm happy as Hell that POS is out of power and the 300,000 mass graves and all the other war crimes he did will be brought up in trial this summer. And yea close before the election

I wanted to add a note in this thread regarding a something I alluded to in an earlier post... which was my concern we weren't focusing enough on getting the basic life necessities to the Iraqi people...
Yea Yea I know it take time that wasn't the point... and while we know it's not great yet I would like to add that it may be a lot better than what we hear about on the news.
I spoke with my old roomate from College who's aunt was hired by Haliburton to drive some of the Convoy trucks (she is a driver). Apparently she was able to come home at Chrismas and they spend much of that time listening to her stories.
What I want to relay is that now I have, from a person I know (I know his aunt) first hand information. While she said there is still a lot of work to do, of course, many areas of Bagdad are now no worse than some of our major cities (minus the water and electricity in all areas). One of the other things she noted was that it wasn't just that the Power Plants were almost or were destroyed but those still "in use" were grossly inadequate and antiquated (10 years of sanctions right?) In her words the Grid wasn't on 24/7 even before the war according to those people she has met (she is now driving a mail truck over there). While things aren't great, she said the majority of people do feel their lives are better, not just because they aren't worried about torture as I previously stated but because they have hope for a better future...
Now... I know, and YOU KNOW this is only one person account of the current situation. However it is the account of someone I know is a down to earth, good person who wouldn't know politics if it smacked her upside the head. Take it for what you will...
Marb
Yea Yea I know it take time that wasn't the point... and while we know it's not great yet I would like to add that it may be a lot better than what we hear about on the news.
I spoke with my old roomate from College who's aunt was hired by Haliburton to drive some of the Convoy trucks (she is a driver). Apparently she was able to come home at Chrismas and they spend much of that time listening to her stories.
What I want to relay is that now I have, from a person I know (I know his aunt) first hand information. While she said there is still a lot of work to do, of course, many areas of Bagdad are now no worse than some of our major cities (minus the water and electricity in all areas). One of the other things she noted was that it wasn't just that the Power Plants were almost or were destroyed but those still "in use" were grossly inadequate and antiquated (10 years of sanctions right?) In her words the Grid wasn't on 24/7 even before the war according to those people she has met (she is now driving a mail truck over there). While things aren't great, she said the majority of people do feel their lives are better, not just because they aren't worried about torture as I previously stated but because they have hope for a better future...
Now... I know, and YOU KNOW this is only one person account of the current situation. However it is the account of someone I know is a down to earth, good person who wouldn't know politics if it smacked her upside the head. Take it for what you will...
Marb