Trade

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Chmee
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Trade

Post by Chmee »

Been a lot of good article about trade recently. Here are a few of them.

From The Economist

http://www.economist.com/agenda/display ... id=2442040
Foreign competition now affects services as well as manufacturing. Good






FOR the past 250 years, politicians and hard-headed men of business have diligently ignored what economics has to say about the gains from trade—much as they may pretend, or in some cases even believe, that they are paying close attention. Except for those on the hard left, politicians of every ideological stripe these days swear their allegiance to the basic principle of free trade. Businessmen say the same. So when either group issues its calls for barriers against foreign competition, it is never because free trade is wrong in principle, it is because foreigners are cheating somehow, rendering the principles void. Or else it is because something about the way the world works has changed, so that the basic principles, ever valid in themselves, need to be adjusted. And those adjustments, of course, then oblige these staunch defenders of free-trade-in-principle to call for all manner of restrictions on trade.

In this way, protectionism is periodically refreshed and reinvented. Anti-trade sentiment, especially in the United States, is currently having one of its strongest revivals in years. Earlier bogus “new conditions” that were deemed to undermine the orthodox case for liberal trade included the growth of cross-border capital flows, the recognition that some industries exposed to foreign competition may have strategic or network significance for the wider economy, and concerns over exploitation of workers in developing countries. Today's bogus new condition, which is proving far more potent in political terms than any of these others, is the fact that international competition is now impinging on industries previously sheltered from it by the constraints of technology and geography.
Virginia Postrel in the NY Times (free registration probably required)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/26/business/26scene.html
SUPPOSE we lived in an economic world with no borders, where goods, capital and people could move anywhere.

We've all heard the dire predictions of what would happen. All the businesses and jobs would rush to the places with the lowest wages. The poor countries would get richer, but only by making rich countries poorer.

Eventually we'd all be roughly equal, but formerly well-to-do Americans would be a lot worse off. Many Americans are afraid that globalization and free trade will have exactly this effect.

We rarely realize that we already live in a version of that theoretical world. The United States is one giant free trade zone. Businesses can move their plants, investors can move their money and workers can move themselves from region to region without government permission.

Over the last century, a lot of that movement has occurred. Rich and poor regions have converged to about the same standard of living. But the results haven't been anything like the "race to the bottom" of protectionist imaginations.

Incomes still vary widely across regions. Income per capita in Connecticut, the richest state, was about $42,000 in 2002, compared with $24,000 in New Mexico, the poorest. (These figures aren't adjusted for price variations between regions.)

Today's differences are small, however, compared with the huge differences that used to exist. A century ago, the poor states were like third world countries compared with the richest states. They've caught up only since 1960.

Adjusted for regional price differences, income per worker in the South was just two-thirds of the country's average as recently as 1940, according to calculations by two economists, Kris James Mitchener and Ian W. McLean, reported in The Journal of Economic History.

The disparity was even greater in the late 19th century.

Over the last half-century, "once-poorer states have been growing faster than richer ones," says Professor Mitchener of Santa Clara University in California. "That's going to cause the poor ones to catch up to the richer ones." But, he adds, that doesn't mean impoverishing the rich ones.

In fact, states like New York, California, New Jersey, Connecticut and Massachusetts have remained at the top of the list for more than a century. They've kept growing, though at a slower rate than poorer states. The most dramatic improvement has been in Florida, which was among the poorest states in 1880 and among the richest a century later.
Thomas Friedman, also in the NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/26/opini ... IE.html?hp

I've been in India for only a few days and I am already thinking about reincarnation. In my next life, I want to be a demagogue.

Yes, I want to be able to huff and puff about complex issues — like outsourcing of jobs to India — without any reference to reality. Unfortunately, in this life, I'm stuck in the body of a reporter/columnist. So when I came to the 24/7 Customer call center in Bangalore to observe hundreds of Indian young people doing service jobs via long distance — answering the phones for U.S. firms, providing technical support for U.S. computer giants or selling credit cards for global banks — I was prepared to denounce the whole thing. "How can it be good for America to have all these Indians doing our white-collar jobs?" I asked 24/7's founder, S. Nagarajan.

Well, he answered patiently, "look around this office." All the computers are from Compaq. The basic software is from Microsoft. The phones are from Lucent. The air-conditioning is by Carrier, and even the bottled water is by Coke, because when it comes to drinking water in India, people want a trusted brand. On top of all this, says Mr. Nagarajan, 90 percent of the shares in 24/7 are owned by U.S. investors. This explains why, although the U.S. has lost some service jobs to India, total exports from U.S. companies to India have grown from $2.5 billion in 1990 to $4.1 billion in 2002. What goes around comes around, and also benefits Americans.
Catherine Mann does some research on the issue.

(pdf file)
http://iie.com/publications/pb/pb03-11.pdf
No nation was ever ruined by trade.

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Post by Zaelath »

SUPPOSE we lived in an economic world with no borders, where goods, capital and people could move anywhere.

We've all heard the dire predictions of what would happen. All the businesses and jobs would rush to the places with the lowest wages. The poor countries would get richer, but only by making rich countries poorer.

Eventually we'd all be roughly equal, but formerly well-to-do Americans would be a lot worse off. Many Americans are afraid that globalization and free trade will have exactly this effect.

We rarely realize that we already live in a version of that theoretical world. The United States is one giant free trade zone. Businesses can move their plants, investors can move their money and workers can move themselves from region to region without government permission.

Over the last century, a lot of that movement has occurred. Rich and poor regions have converged to about the same standard of living. But the results haven't been anything like the "race to the bottom" of protectionist imaginations.
The most pathetically stupid fucking thing I've ever read.

Take for example, if the entire population of the world were to have an American standard of living, it has been shown you would need 23 (that's twenty three) planets the size of earth to support it.

The "middle ground" between the US standard of living and the poor masses is nowhere near the mean income.
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Post by Chmee »

Zaelath wrote:Take for example, if the entire population of the world were to have an American standard of living, it has been shown you would need 23 (that's twenty three) planets the size of earth to support it.
Where exactly has this been shown? At a guess, someone probably took the resource consumption per capita in the U.S. multiplied it by the world population and compared it to world production or proven reserves. That doesn't work though. In 1950 the proven world reserves of oil was 104 billion barrels, in 1990 it was 1,002 bb despite 40 years of consumption (source: http://www.cato.org/pubs/chapters/marlib21.html ). Did that oil just spontaneously come into existance? No, we got better at finding it and better at extracting it. Which doesn't even take into account the more important point that from an economic standpoint we are really more interested in energy, than oil in particular. Historically we have shifted from different sources of energy as we have found new ways to produce it.
No nation was ever ruined by trade.

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Post by Vetiria »

Oh boy. Exports have increased by less than $10,000 per job lost to outsourcing. I'm sure that makes everyone that is unemployed because of outsourcing feel better.
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Post by Chmee »

Vetiria wrote:Oh boy. Exports have increased by less than $10,000 per job lost to outsourcing. I'm sure that makes everyone that is unemployed because of outsourcing feel better.
Trade, much like technological progress, can destroy some jobs. But others get created. And overall people are better off. The IT jobs everyone is complaining about being outsourced didn't even exist 50 years ago. As they came into the economy they destroyed older jobs. Should we still have people manually calculate budget figures on a big board, or have them do it in vastly less time in excel? We can't forget the people that lose their job as a result. But trying to stop economic change is going to make everyone a lot worse off.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Very interesting stuff.

I still think the Idian shit needs to stop though. I think thats great they furnished their building with US goods, but it would have been even better if the call center was built in the US, using US employees, and equipped with US goods.

The notion that the world would some how balance is pretty funny too. Must be a drug induced apparition the writer had before writing the article.
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Post by Vetiria »

Chmee wrote:
Vetiria wrote:Oh boy. Exports have increased by less than $10,000 per job lost to outsourcing. I'm sure that makes everyone that is unemployed because of outsourcing feel better.
Trade, much like technological progress, can destroy some jobs. But others get created. And overall people are better off. The IT jobs everyone is complaining about being outsourced didn't even exist 50 years ago. As they came into the economy they destroyed older jobs. Should we still have people manually calculate budget figures on a big board, or have them do it in vastly less time in excel? We can't forget the people that lose their job as a result. But trying to stop economic change is going to make everyone a lot worse off.
The jobs aren't being destroyed, they are being moved. Your analogy is moot.
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Post by Chmee »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Very interesting stuff.

I still think the Idian shit needs to stop though. I think thats great they furnished their building with US goods, but it would have been even better if the call center was built in the US, using US employees, and equipped with US goods.
No it shouldn't. And if they really are providing the same value for a cheaper cost then it wouldn't be better if we built the call center here and equipped it with US employees and US goods. If you can get the same good or service for a cheaper price, it makes economic sense to do so. Its the basis of trade. Its why we don't all make build our own houses, grow our own food, make our own tools etc. Its more efficient to specialize and purchase from other people what we don't produce.
The notion that the world would some how balance is pretty funny too. Must be a drug induced apparition the writer had before writing the article.
Trade is not the only factor governing economic growth of course. But the main point of the article, that the poorer states got richer, but the richer states also got richer still holds. Trade with other countries isn't going to destroy our wealth, it will increase it.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Hmm. Okay. I'm not into economics and global trade at all, so what you are saying while foreign to me sounds good. :)
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Post by Chmee »

Vetiria wrote: The jobs aren't being destroyed, they are being moved. Your analogy is moot.
Doesn't make that much of a difference. You are changing how you are getting the good for the same reason in both cases, you can get it cheaper (or you can get more value for the same price). That means you have money left over to do other things with. The next question I am sure is what about the money we send out of the country. Ultimately, that money comes back into the U.S. (if it never does, then we are sending them paper and they are giving us goods and services, not a bad deal). What about the trade deficit though? We run a deficit because we are an attractive destination for foreign investment.

http://www.freetrade.org/pubs/pas/tpa-002.html

The necessary balance between the current account and the capital account implies a direct connection between the trade balance on the one hand and the savings and investment balance on the other. That relationship is captured in the simple formula:

Savings - Investment = Exports - Imports

Thus, a nation that saves more than it invests, such as Japan, will export its excess savings in the form of net foreign investment. In other words, it must run a capital account deficit. The money sent abroad as investment will return to the country to purchase exports in excess of what the country imports, creating a corresponding trade surplus. A nation that invests more than it saves--the United States, for example--must import capital from abroad. In other words, it must run a capital account surplus. The imported capital allows the nation's citizens to consume more goods and services than they produce, importing the difference through a trade deficit.

In 1996 Americans invested $1,117 billion privately and another $224 billion through government, for a total of $1,341 billion in gross domestic investment. National savings, however, fell short of that amount, requiring Americans to import a net $133 billion in capital.(18) That same year Americans paid $1,238 billion to the rest of the world for imports of goods and services, net transfer payments, and income on foreign investments in the United States, while receiving $1,105 billion for exports and investment income. The result was a current account deficit of $133 billion, equal to the net inflow of foreign capital.(19)
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Post by Chidoro »

What I find funny is that you think you're going to be exempt from losing your particular job as a result of these trends if you just happen to work really hard.

Newsflash, there are a ton of people who bust their asses every day and do so for years on end, and still lose their job due to this kind of bullshit.

Don't think you're invincible because you think you work really hard. And if you're not out of school yet, still trudging your way towards that ever elusive MBA, all the more reason to laugh in your direction.

So naive, so so fucking naive
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Post by Chmee »

Chidoro wrote:What I find funny is that you think you're going to be exempt from losing your particular job as a result of these trends if you just happen to work really hard.

Newsflash, there are a ton of people who bust their asses every day and do so for years on end, and still lose their job due to this kind of bullshit.

Don't think you're invincible because you think you work really hard. And if you're not out of school yet, still trudging your way towards that ever elusive MBA, all the more reason to laugh in your direction.

So naive, so so fucking naive
I certainly don't think I am exempt from losing a particular job as a result of working hard. Working hard will generally make you more successful, but it certainly isn't proof against a particular job going away.
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Post by Zaelath »

Chmee wrote:
Zaelath wrote:Take for example, if the entire population of the world were to have an American standard of living, it has been shown you would need 23 (that's twenty three) planets the size of earth to support it.
Where exactly has this been shown? At a guess, someone probably took the resource consumption per capita in the U.S. multiplied it by the world population and compared it to world production or proven reserves. That doesn't work though. In 1950 the proven world reserves of oil was 104 billion barrels, in 1990 it was 1,002 bb despite 40 years of consumption (source: http://www.cato.org/pubs/chapters/marlib21.html ). Did that oil just spontaneously come into existance? No, we got better at finding it and better at extracting it. Which doesn't even take into account the more important point that from an economic standpoint we are really more interested in energy, than oil in particular. Historically we have shifted from different sources of energy as we have found new ways to produce it.
Oil, or any energy source for that matter, is only a contributor to the standard of living. Tell me oh wise seer of all that is good, where the HELL are you going to find 20x the arrable land, drinking water, living space, etc? Oh right, you aren't.

I'm all for global communism myself, but if you think everyone can share the world's resources equally, and you can maintain your standard of living, you're so incredibly naive I just wonder if you have any interest in buying the Golden Gate Bridge at a firesale price!
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Post by Chmee »

Zaelath wrote:Oil, or any energy source for that matter, is only a contributor to the standard of living. Tell me oh wise seer of all that is good, where the HELL are you going to find 20x the arrable land, drinking water, living space, etc? Oh right, you aren't.
Yes, I realize oil is only part of it. The basic premise however still stands. Economics is not a zero sum game with a fixed amount of wealth that can only be redistributed. More wealth is created by people figuring out new ways of doing things. More people that have the opportunity to do that is a benefit, not a detriment.

I'm all for global communism myself, but if you think everyone can share the world's resources equally, and you can maintain your standard of living, you're so incredibly naive I just wonder if you have any interest in buying the Golden Gate Bridge at a firesale price!
I am certainly not in any way proposing global communism. Neither is the writer of the article. As she stated, there are still differences between different states, and of course within those states income between individuals vary widly. The point she was making is that the U.S. in the past there were greater disparities between the states. Free trade between the rich and poor states did not drag the rich down to the level of the poor. They both got richer (the poor states getting richer faster on average, but both improved).
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Post by Zaelath »

*sigh* at SOME point you need the physical resources to purchase, that is most definitely a fixed number in most cases. You can only increase productivity from a hectare of land to a certain level SUSTAINABLY (see; permaculture, no really)

You simply can NOT raise the standard of living of the entire world to anything like the US, and not even "with small variances" between the states. It's patently ludicrous.
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Post by Chmee »

Zaelath wrote:*sigh* at SOME point you need the physical resources to purchase, that is most definitely a fixed number in most cases. You can only increase productivity from a hectare of land to a certain level SUSTAINABLY (see; permaculture, no really)

You simply can NOT raise the standard of living of the entire world to anything like the US, and not even "with small variances" between the states. It's patently ludicrous.
Have we already found the max productivity from a hectare of land? Is all the land currently being farmed being done so to that level? Resources are a constraint in the short term, in the long term they are less meaningful. The recipes for how we do things have a higher impact on economic well being in the long term.

I was thinking some more on your statement ...
Take for example, if the entire population of the world were to have an American standard of living, it has been shown you would need 23 (that's twenty three) planets the size of earth to support it.
I think I was being to kind about the probable method of coming up with that assertion that I made earlier. Currently the world population is around 6.3 billion (source - http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/popclockw ). The population of the United States is about 280 million (source - http://www.nationmaster.com ). Take 6.3 billion, divide by 280 million and you get 22.5. So the assertion is basically saying that we are already using all of the worlds resources, which is clearly false. Even worse than that, it is saying that the United States is currently using all of the worlds resources, which is even more clearly false. Yes, the U.S. is a large part of the worlds economy, but it is not all of it. U.S. GDP is around 10 trillion, world GDP is around 40 trillion. Using GDP as a rough estimate of resource use (I know its not perfect, but as I said, this is a rough estimate) does that mean that we are already using 4 times the planets resources?
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Post by Zaelath »

Chmee wrote:
Zaelath wrote:*sigh* at SOME point you need the physical resources to purchase, that is most definitely a fixed number in most cases. You can only increase productivity from a hectare of land to a certain level SUSTAINABLY (see; permaculture, no really)

You simply can NOT raise the standard of living of the entire world to anything like the US, and not even "with small variances" between the states. It's patently ludicrous.
Have we already found the max productivity from a hectare of land? Is all the land currently being farmed being done so to that level? Resources are a constraint in the short term, in the long term they are less meaningful. The recipes for how we do things have a higher impact on economic well being in the long term.
Dream on, it's pointless arguing technology that doesn't exist and isn't probable. Water could arguably be made from thin air, with enough energy, but that would have impacts of it's own; you'd basically have to start boiling the ocean, unless you manage to breed an animal that drinks brine and pisses springwater. The 23 figure may well be a little out of date, or it may simply have been a little lower, but the theory is still sound that you can only reasonably expect to sustainably generate so much food from so much soil and water.

Frankly, economic theory is just that, theory. It almost has about as much forethought as a pyramid investment scheme once you take it to a saturation level. You simply can not extrapolate endlessly from a theorem that appears to function in a finite area and expect it to hold forever. Think quantum physics; the uncertainty principle, etc.

With your rationalisation of things the following is also true; If a 4 turbo fan aircraft can fly slower on 3 engines or at the same speed at the expense of consuming more fuel, on zero engines it must just stop and hover or continue at its normal speed consuming an infinite amount of fuel.
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Post by Zaelath »

Chmee wrote:
I was thinking some more on your statement ...
Take for example, if the entire population of the world were to have an American standard of living, it has been shown you would need 23 (that's twenty three) planets the size of earth to support it.
I think I was being to kind about the probable method of coming up with that assertion that I made earlier. Currently the world population is around 6.3 billion (source - http://www.census.gov/cgi-bin/ipc/popclockw ). The population of the United States is about 280 million (source - http://www.nationmaster.com ). Take 6.3 billion, divide by 280 million and you get 22.5. So the assertion is basically saying that we are already using all of the worlds resources, which is clearly false. Even worse than that, it is saying that the United States is currently using all of the worlds resources, which is even more clearly false. Yes, the U.S. is a large part of the worlds economy, but it is not all of it. U.S. GDP is around 10 trillion, world GDP is around 40 trillion. Using GDP as a rough estimate of resource use (I know its not perfect, but as I said, this is a rough estimate) does that mean that we are already using 4 times the planets resources?
Now try again, and run your figures with everyone that enjoys a comparable standard of living to the united states. That's pretty much all of Europe, the US, Australia, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Canada, etc, etc.

It's a fun little example of how you can take two figures and turn them into a pointless fucking statistic however, well done.
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Post by Chmee »

Zaelath wrote: Dream on, it's pointless arguing technology that doesn't exist and isn't probable.
Since technological advancements have been the dominant factor historically in determining productivity any discussion of how well we can utilize resources is useless without considering it. Are you saying that we are not going to discover any better ways of doing things in the future, that we have reached a dead end? For that matter that the current technology is evenly distributed throughout the world?
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Zaelath wrote:Now try again, and run your figures with everyone that enjoys a comparable standard of living to the united states. That's pretty much all of Europe, the US, Australia, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Canada, etc, etc.
The more people there are with a comparable standard of living to the United States in the world, the weaker your argument is (since less wealth is needed to bring the rest of the world up to that standard).
It's a fun little example of how you can take two figures and turn them into a pointless fucking statistic however, well done.
You were the one who quoted the statistic that if everyone in the world had the living standards of the U.S. it would take 23 planets like the earth to support. I was just pointing out that the relative population between the U.S. and the world shows that to be an obviously incorrect statement.
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Post by Zaelath »

Chmee wrote:
Zaelath wrote: Dream on, it's pointless arguing technology that doesn't exist and isn't probable.
Since technological advancements have been the dominant factor historically in determining productivity any discussion of how well we can utilize resources is useless without considering it. Are you saying that we are not going to discover any better ways of doing things in the future, that we have reached a dead end? For that matter that the current technology is evenly distributed throughout the world?
You're talking about raising the productivity of the planet (while holding the population static, which as we know is a flawed assumption) by more than an order of maginitude. Given the most productive countries in the world (like England, good soil, plenty of rainfall, etc) have only achieved 10x the productivity of some of the worst (The Sudan for example which is primarily a freaking desert) the hope of raising the total agricultural output of the planet this amount through technological means would seem highly unlikely.

There are no dead ends, but there IS a tailing off effect. Similar to the way we still break world records in sport all the time, but by an increasingly small amount or at times by what could even amount to random fluctuations.

Anything is possible, but your suggestion is in the realms of science fiction and the original article is pure bullshit and an attempt to shift blame, not a serious discussion of distribution of wealth on a planetary basis.
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Chmee wrote:
Zaelath wrote:Now try again, and run your figures with everyone that enjoys a comparable standard of living to the united states. That's pretty much all of Europe, the US, Australia, Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Canada, etc, etc.
The more people there are with a comparable standard of living to the United States in the world, the weaker your argument is (since less wealth is needed to bring the rest of the world up to that standard).
Hardly, and regardless the statistic you generated didn't have any real meaning. Take some real figures from the World Bank(http://www.worldbank.org):

World:
Population 6.3 Billion
GNP 32.3 Trillion
GNI 5,080

US:
Population 288.4 Million
GNP 10.4 Trillion
GNI 35,060

Subtract the US from the World:

Population 6.0 billion
GNP 21.9 Trillion
GNI ~ 3,650

GNP increase required to raise "rest of the world" to US standards (on average): 188.4 Trillion

Percentage increase: 960%

Now, as you remove wealthier countries from the population/GNP the total amount required goes down, but the percentage (which is the important part, goes UP)

World - US - UK
Population 5.94 Billion
GNP: 20.3 Trillion
GNI ~ 3417

GNP increase required to raise "World - US - UK" to US standards (on average): 187 Trillion

Percentage increase: 1025%

As you continue to remove the top end, the percentage increase required gets higher, the higher that percentage increase is the more productive the remainder of the world has to be to catch up.

The GNI of what the World Bank considers "Low Income" (some 2.5 billion people, or almost half the fucking planet) is 430. In essence, these people would have to miraculously present technology that would make them 81x as productive (expressing this figure as 8,100% borders on the ludicrous, hence the switch to multiple representation) as they are now to reach US standards.

Am I to take it you honestly believe someone is going to invent this technology?
It's a fun little example of how you can take two figures and turn them into a pointless fucking statistic however, well done.
You were the one who quoted the statistic that if everyone in the world had the living standards of the U.S. it would take 23 planets like the earth to support. I was just pointing out that the relative population between the U.S. and the world shows that to be an obviously incorrect statement.
I refer to your butchering of dividing the world population by the US population to come up with a number based on GNP which is purely a monetary figure, not at all directly related to resource consumption, and claim that it was.

Regardless, the entire proposition that the "3rd world" should just pull itself up by it's bootstraps and stop bitching about the fact that they have trouble growing rice in a desert is insulting in the extreme. I've had enough of this topic. Rationalise away.
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Post by Chmee »

Zaelath wrote: As you continue to remove the top end, the percentage increase required gets higher, the higher that percentage increase is the more productive the remainder of the world has to be to catch up.
Yes, the poorest will have the farthest to go individually. My point however was the more people are that are already close to the U.S. standard of living, the less overall is necessary to bring the world to that standard.
I refer to your butchering of dividing the world population by the US population to come up with a number based on GNP which is purely a monetary figure, not at all directly related to resource consumption, and claim that it was.
I explicitly stated that using GDP was just a rough estimate, and not a perfect predictor of resource consumption.
Regardless, the entire proposition that the "3rd world" should just pull itself up by it's bootstraps and stop bitching about the fact that they have trouble growing rice in a desert is insulting in the extreme. I've had enough of this topic. Rationalise away.
That was never the argument. The thread originally was about how trade is beneficial. The article that spawned this side discussion pointed out that the U.S. is in effect a free trade zone, and that in the past there have been large differences in the wealth across states and free trade existing did not drag the wealthier states down to the level of the poor states (one of the scenarios often proposed by people saying that free trade will hurt the U.S.). It wasn't saying anything about why some current countries are poor. It was just saying that free trade will be beneficial to both us and them.
No nation was ever ruined by trade.

– Benjamin Franklin
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