Scopes - Part Duex Georgia Strikes Back

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » January 30, 2004, 4:05 pm

I'm sure everyone knows about the Scopes trial in the 1930s... looks like a similar issue is arising in Georgia. However this time they aren't banning the theory, just the word. I hear it will go well with the restored Confedrate Flag...

http://us.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01/30/ ... index.html

Enjoy!
Marb

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 30, 2004, 4:09 pm

haha, how fucking backward do you have to be to ban teaching evolution. I feel so badly for children in the south. Too bad president Lincoln wasn't more genocidal.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 30, 2004, 4:21 pm

its embarrassing.

i dont know how to get invovled politically to oppose this pure lunacy. i need to look into that.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 30, 2004, 4:30 pm

"If you're teaching the concept without the word, what's the point?" said Rep. Bobby Franklin, a Republican. "It's stupid. It's like teaching gravity without using the word gravity."

[sarcasm] OMG, republicans don't believe in gravity either?! [/sarcasm]

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 30, 2004, 4:36 pm

gravity is a great example.

there are theories for how gravity operates, but we still don't know exactly how it operates, but nobody contests that it does, because anybody can test it without being a scientist, having specialized equipment, or knowing a lot about physics.

but gravity itself is a fact. the explanations of how it operates are theories.

Evolution is also a fact. People always say "the theory of evolution", but this is a common misstatement in the public vernacular. They are actually speaking of the Theory of Natural Selection (typically), which is one theory to explain how evolution actually proceeds.

Evolution is a fact. If you can't clearly see the anatomical stepwise progression from single celled organisms all the way to humans in this extremely broad phylogentic tree of life on planet earth i don't know what to tell you. There are what, probably 20-30 species of extinct hominids that we know of from fossils etc.

To embrace creationism is simply to abandon reason. For instance, the entire basis of the argument is the bible is the word of god because the bible says it is the word of god.

doesnt take much of a logician to find the flaw there.

Ennia · Post by **Ennia** » January 30, 2004, 5:27 pm

they don't want to stop teaching evolution, just name it differently

which is retarded of course, why use "biological changes over time" instead of evolution?

it would be like using "invisible man that your priest makes you believe is real" instead of "god"

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » January 30, 2004, 5:29 pm

Voronwë wrote:its embarrassing.

i dont know how to get invovled politically to oppose this pure lunacy. i need to look into that.

Run for office Voro!

If you're Republican your slogan could be, "Don't be a Jackass! Vote for me!"

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 30, 2004, 5:37 pm

i mostly meant going to the next school board meeting or something like that

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » January 30, 2004, 5:48 pm

sadly ironic that georgia also has the best scholarship system in the nation, quite possibly the world.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 30, 2004, 6:09 pm

well of course they do it is funded by the power of The Lord.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » January 30, 2004, 6:27 pm

it would be like using "invisible man that your priest makes you believe is real" instead of "god"

damn that sneaky invisible man

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 30, 2004, 6:51 pm

Voronwë wrote:gravity is a great example.

there are theories for how gravity operates, but we still don't know exactly how it operates, but nobody contests that it does, because anybody can test it without being a scientist, having specialized equipment, or knowing a lot about physics.

but gravity itself is a fact. the explanations of how it operates are theories.

Evolution is also a fact. People always say "the theory of evolution", but this is a common misstatement in the public vernacular. They are actually speaking of the Theory of Natural Selection (typically), which is one theory to explain how evolution actually proceeds.

Evolution is a fact. If you can't clearly see the anatomical stepwise progression from single celled organisms all the way to humans in this extremely broad phylogentic tree of life on planet earth i don't know what to tell you. There are what, probably 20-30 species of extinct hominids that we know of from fossils etc.

To embrace creationism is simply to abandon reason. For instance, the entire basis of the argument is the bible is the word of god because the bible says it is the word of god.

doesnt take much of a logician to find the flaw there.

If yer gonna use the $20 vocabulary word, at least spell it correctly. Fucking Moronwe hur hur hurrrrr!

Great post, otherwise.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » January 30, 2004, 7:38 pm

Remniscient of the Arkansas House legislating Pi = 3...good luck with that Georgia...I hear Texas will soon be testing a Theory of the Force Which Makes Things Fall bill...

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 30, 2004, 8:05 pm

and people wonder why "liberals" see certain issues as trojan horses to religious agendas

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » January 30, 2004, 8:23 pm

There are things that happen, and there are observers who interpret what they see.

As long as you don't try to pass off your interpretation of the event as the "only" acceptable viewpoint, I'll have no problem with you presenting it to my kid.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » January 30, 2004, 8:40 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:There are things that happen, and there are observers who interpret what they see.

As long as you don't try to pass off your interpretation of the event as the "only" acceptable viewpoint, I'll have no problem with you presenting it to my kid.

Just the only scientifically acceptable viewpoint...

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 30, 2004, 10:03 pm

Voronwë wrote:Evolution is a fact. If you can't clearly see the anatomical stepwise progression from single celled organisms all the way to humans in this extremely broad phylogentic tree of life on planet earth i don't know what to tell you. There are what, probably 20-30 species of extinct hominids that we know of from fossils etc.

god put them there to test our faith. the world is 2500 years old. NEXT

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » January 30, 2004, 10:43 pm

You assume incorrectly of me Kyo, as usual.

But hey it gives you a funny one liner.

Arb,

There's more to this world that what our limited minds can measure. Science is limited tool for measuring truth. As long as we recognise that our understanding is limited, and that we could be WAY off, the use of science to propose theories is fine.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 31, 2004, 12:42 am

Science is the religion of the skeptic. It requires only a little faith and doesn't pretend to have all the answers. It serves wonderfully to make us feel comfortable that we understand the physics of flight enough to get into a 747. Of course, science has NFI how a bumblebee can fly...

Religion is the science of the hopeful. It requires lots of faith but promises to know all and great rewards. It serves wonderfully to allow republicans to hoarde the wealth of the world amongst themselves while giving people a compelling reasons not to revolt. It's been used well and widely as a mass population control.

I'm a skeptic, but to the extent that I don't think you should put your faith in either completely =p

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » January 31, 2004, 1:11 am

its simple
religion cant be proved or disproved
science can be proved and disproved

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » January 31, 2004, 1:54 am

A goldfish can learn through it's own capablities that it cannot go past the glass of his fishtank by bumping into it a few hundred times.

A goldfish might even develop a feel for dimensions of his containment.

Can the goldfish discover with certainty, through examination or experimentation the reason for his containment?

Can the goldfish ascertain the reason behind his existance?

Can the goldfish imagine life in an ocean that he's never experienced?

Is the goldfish able to understand what is happening when a child dips his fingers into the waters and disturbs the goldfish'es surroundings?

Is the goldfish able to understand why food periodically falls upon the surface of the water from time to time?

We are just like that goldfish. We rest in a cosmic fishtank of which we haven't even found all the walls yet alone the reason for it's existance.

Are so arrogant to assume, despite the humiliation of our declared certainties of the past that we now know, why we developed as we have?

We, aloft in the vastness of this universe, are not but an insignificant speck in the expanse.

To say that our existance here is certainly based on evolutionary "facts" is similar to the goldfish who knowing nothing outside his fishtank proudly declares that he was born from the light cast by the desklamp above him.

Science is a human construct. It is a tool for getting answers, just as the goldfish uses his nose to bump into the fishtank glass.

But to say that we have "determined as fact" that we are hear due to a reversal of entropy is childish. It's arrogant, and like history has shown, our certitudes are probably wrong.

Many times God has stuck his finger in our fishtank, and many times people have rejected what they saw just because they couldn't "quantify" it.

Sure teach my kid your theories. They're worth knowing, and when he comes home I'll teach him to keep his eyes and his heart open to God, who is quite able to abstract himself from our primitive measuring rod of science.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » January 31, 2004, 2:05 am

We aren't fucking goldfish, sorry.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » January 31, 2004, 2:38 am

kyoukan wrote:haha, how fucking backward do you have to be to ban teaching evolution. I feel so badly for children in the south. Too bad president Lincoln wasn't more genocidal.

Reanimation serum is still in the works. General Sherman must ride again!!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » January 31, 2004, 2:39 am

Kev,

The number 4 is dramatically different than the number 1 when you compare both to 8. Yet 4 is quite similar to 1 when you compare both to 1,000,000,000.

Likewise, we are similar to goldfish when you compare both of us against the complexity of the universe.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » January 31, 2004, 3:29 am

Oh I know, I was just kidding around. I understand what you mean

. The thing is, we have the mental capabilities to go beyond always having questions, we can actually find the answers. Ignoring the vast knowledge we gain from science because people would rather just do what they've always done(commiting to a belief system) is like walking through life with blinders on. It's beyond simply having faith in something because it is our nature to do so. These days, commiting to religion is actively ignoring/denying scientific facts and fearing truth beyond what you've grown to believe.

There is so much knowledge out there, to deprive children of this informantion or to mask it in any way is a terrible thing.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » January 31, 2004, 3:58 am

its kinda like if god said ... when he hits that head of cabbage with that sharp knife .. nothing is gonna happen ... but when i do it .. the head of cabbage splits apart but you refuse to accept the idea that the cabbage is in two pieces ... then you fall into a coma because you don't understand and its too much for you to handle

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » January 31, 2004, 5:52 am

Drasta wrote:its kinda like if god said ... when he hits that head of cabbage with that sharp knife .. nothing is gonna happen ... but when i do it .. the head of cabbage splits apart but you refuse to accept the idea that the cabbage is in two pieces ... then you fall into a coma because you don't understand and its too much for you to handle

Please tell me this post was created by a random word generator.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 31, 2004, 7:06 am

Sionistic wrote:its simple
religion cant be proved or disproved
science can be proved and disproved

Actually, science can be disproved, not proved.. ref: Quantum physics.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » January 31, 2004, 10:06 am

Zaelath wrote:science has NFI how a bumblebee can fly...

I wouldn't say they have no idea, there are certainly some that are working on it.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articl ... 9EC588EF21

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » January 31, 2004, 1:01 pm

The bumblebee question to my knowledge has been figured out.

I want my kids to be taught evolution.
I want them to be taught the methodologies of science.
I want the teacher to present theories such as evolution in a manner that says "Hey this is a very popular and well documented interpretation of what we've observed."

What I oppose is anyone who presents this evolution interpretation as if it was an immutable fact. Like I said before, history has a habit of humiliating our certitudes.

Animale · Post by **Animale** » January 31, 2004, 1:23 pm

I believe it was said before... evolution is NOT a theory, merely an observation.

The theory is of natural selection as a method FOR evolution. That point is debatable and there are many explanations out there for the observation of evolution (punctuated equilibrium, natural selection, and so on). While some may debate whether evolution actually happened, the scientific community in general agrees that evolution is merely the observed state. The much more interesting question is HOW does it happen, WHAT makes it work, and WHEN does it result in speciation.

Animale

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » January 31, 2004, 2:46 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:A goldfish can learn through it's own capablities that it cannot go past the glass of his fishtank by bumping into it a few hundred times.

A goldfish might even develop a feel for dimensions of his containment.

Can the goldfish discover with certainty, through examination or experimentation the reason for his containment?

Can the goldfish ascertain the reason behind his existance?

Can the goldfish imagine life in an ocean that he's never experienced?

Is the goldfish able to understand what is happening when a child dips his fingers into the waters and disturbs the goldfish'es surroundings?

Is the goldfish able to understand why food periodically falls upon the surface of the water from time to time?

We are just like that goldfish. We rest in a cosmic fishtank of which we haven't even found all the walls yet alone the reason for it's existance.

Are so arrogant to assume, despite the humiliation of our declared certainties of the past that we now know, why we developed as we have?

We, aloft in the vastness of this universe, are not but an insignificant speck in the expanse.

To say that our existance here is certainly based on evolutionary "facts" is similar to the goldfish who knowing nothing outside his fishtank proudly declares that he was born from the light cast by the desklamp above him.

Science is a human construct. It is a tool for getting answers, just as the goldfish uses his nose to bump into the fishtank glass.

But to say that we have "determined as fact" that we are hear due to a reversal of entropy is childish. It's arrogant, and like history has shown, our certitudes are probably wrong.

Many times God has stuck his finger in our fishtank, and many times people have rejected what they saw just because they couldn't "quantify" it.

Sure teach my kid your theories. They're worth knowing, and when he comes home I'll teach him to keep his eyes and his heart open to God, who is quite able to abstract himself from our primitive measuring rod of science.

And this is all very poetic and pretty much drivel...you are attempting to hold both sides of the argument..little wonder that you come out with your own answers...keep the blinders on you'll feel safer...

Science isn't looking for "truth"... looking for the answer that best fits the data...Truth is a philosophical quest...Science makes statements of probability not fact...

CalandraWindrose · Post by **CalandraWindrose** » January 31, 2004, 7:33 pm

I certainly hope some members of my species have reasoning ability that is greater than that of a fish -

do we know everything? of course not

are some things currently beyond our comprehension? of course

however I don't think much in "your" analogy is very applicable

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » January 31, 2004, 9:05 pm

I agree all analogies fail at some point. I chose to represent what I see as that analogy in an effort to be concise. I'm definately not trying to be artsy fartsy.

It's funny that you see my perspective as one with blinders Arb.
I personally belive that the devotees of empiricism wear blinders.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 31, 2004, 9:19 pm

I think a good way to see something along the lines of evolution is to use a test subject that undergoes rapid generations, like a virus or something. Just from the scary fact that antibiotics helped kill viruses until subsequent generations, which occur every few minutes (Voro would have to check up on that one) learned to live with the very things trying to kill them.

if you keep thinking in terms of human generations and what is documented as to occuring isn't enough, choose a lifeform that has a much shorter generation gap. Evolution isn't a quaint little theory

Drolgin Steingrinder · January 31, 2004, 10:04 pm

Any natural scientist worth their cum laudes would agree that empirism alone is not "proof".

The most you can hope for is corroberating (sp) evidence to back up your theory.

If there is enough of this, admittedly circumstantial, evidence, then you have a good case. In a criminal court, it might be enough to get you a conviction - the key words being "beyond reasonable doubt".

And that's where we are. Strict, hard-core creationists strike me as the kind of people who when faced with a man holding a smoking gun, a dead body on the ground with bullets in it that match said gun, the mans hand covered in powder residue and 8 reliable witnesses that state that he fired the weapon at the deceased says, "Hrmm, I'm not so sure what happened here..."

Asheran Mojomaster · February 1, 2004, 12:51 am

Personally, I do believe that there is some greater force (or being, or beings, whatever) out there, there just has to be. But, people who believe that the world was created like 2300 and whatever years ago based on what the Bible says, and that Adam and Eve were created out of the dirt and all that shit are just retarded imo.

I think that yes, most likely something did create the universe, because I cannot figure out any way for it to be created in any other way (but if it was created...how was the being or force that created it created itself?), and did start life on this planet and who knows how many others, but instead of just creating fully evolved creatures out of nothing, started the first organisms, which over the course of billions of years have evolved into all the forms of life we see today (including humans, which I believe most definately did come from monkeys\apes).

Shit, I am rambling, sorry if this all came out incoherent and retarded but I know what I meant and thats all that matters!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 1, 2004, 1:12 am

You know I've learned something in the past few years.

Sometimes people are raised with worldviews so different that they have trouble relating to each other. What a creationist sees as pefectly reasonable, another might have a hard time understanding.

What I have learned is even though I may not totally understand why some people choose to blind themselves from the obvious, I do understand that my own worldview illuminates some truths, and obscures others.

Perhaps it's those obscured truths that are key to me understanding someone radically different than myself.

So rather than label those who disagree with me as ignorant, or closed minded, I reserve judgement. I allow for the fact that they may hold worldviews that are obscured from me, or vice versa.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » February 1, 2004, 1:44 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:Are so arrogant to assume, despite the humiliation of our declared certainties of the past that we now know, why we developed as we have?

We used to worship the sun.

Vaemas · Post by **Vaemas** » February 1, 2004, 2:06 am

kyoukan wrote:well of course they do it is funded by the power of The Lord.

Technically, it's funded by the lottery. You know. Satan.

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » February 1, 2004, 2:20 am

Vaemas wrote:
kyoukan wrote:well of course they do it is funded by the power of The Lord.
Technically, it's funded by the lottery. You know. Satan.

Yeah, thats the funniest part about that. The lottery is so evil yet its the reason they have such a good scholarship fund. We can't even get a lottery here in Alabama because of all the fanatic Christians who go crazy every time we try to get it passed.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » February 1, 2004, 3:30 am

heh same here in maryland ... they are proposing it for the 2nd time i think ... and all the bible thumpers are saying its evil ... even though all i have to do is drive 20 minutes to charles town in WV and i can gamble / slots etc ... and give all my lovely money to WV instead of Maryland !

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » February 1, 2004, 5:01 am

Drasta wrote:heh same here in maryland ... they are proposing it for the 2nd time i think ... and all the bible thumpers are saying its evil ... even though all i have to do is drive 20 minutes to charles town in WV and i can gamble / slots etc ... and give all my lovely money to WV instead of Maryland !

I live less than 5 mins from the Tennessee line and they have a store that sells lottery tickets 2 feet past the line. If I really want to get a ticket, I can. Its stupid, all the states around us have a lottery, but we dont

(I think all of the ones around us do, Mississippi might not, but they have tons of gambling regardless).

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » February 1, 2004, 8:42 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote: It's funny that you see my perspective as one with blinders Arb.
I personally belive that the devotees of empiricism wear blinders.

Empiricism is not science...Science uses empiricism as a tool...the two idea are not interchangeable...

Science questions everything...including its tools...

Questioning everything is blinders because?...

Don't get me wrong I understand fully that sciences that function with paradigms and that there is a strong element of "authority" in scientific research...ie we only ask questions inside the paradigm because that is how we think at that point in time because our teachers taught us in that paradigm...

And these days funding will only be granted to folk inside the current paradigm...Conservatives tend not to want to fund research that "doesn't make sense" or "won't yield 'productive' results"...

Almost all scientists understand the paradigmatic nature of science...And its hard to break out of paradigms...But we do break out...

Modern western religion is based exclusively on authority...Though they have tried to encorporate some of the nice eastern mysticism and ecstatic experience beginning with oh St Teresa of Avila...

But to say I cannot know or we cannot know is just plain lazy thinking or frustration at failure to understand...And to say god made it thus is just to ascribe this intellectual laziness or frustration to someone other than oneself someone who's will is unquestioned by doctrine...so one not only can ignore those pesky questions...one "should" ignore them makeing ignorance convieniently and inherently righteous...

Keep your ghoulies and ghosties (holy and otherwise)...there are lots of things I do not understand admittedly...and I hope never to understand them all...

I am fine with "I don't know as an answer"...I don't need to blame my ignorance on the father, the son, the holy ghost (heh i can't say holy ghost but Eddie izzard comes to mind) or the man behind the curtains...
Its not that I can't know...I just simply don't know...

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » February 2, 2004, 6:32 am

If I ever see this god guy I'm gonna fuck his shit up.
Bastard has a lot to answer for.

Ennia · Post by **Ennia** » February 2, 2004, 12:21 pm

if you wanna know more about the universe and what's beyond just watch the ending to Man in Black

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 2, 2004, 12:23 pm

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 2, 2004, 12:55 pm

Voronwë wrote:PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!

Is Cardinal Puffinstuff abusing himself again?

Post by **Sylvus** » February 2, 2004, 1:18 pm

Adex, what exactly are your beliefs regarding evolution and creation?

I think I give Creationism a hard time due to too strict a stance on Evolution. There is too much evidence that some species were once other species to say that God created each of them individually all at once. If religion could just view the Bible as a bit more allegory and a lot less fact, I think they'd win over a lot more people.

God's seven days of creation, when taken literally, are bunk. Hooey, I say! That alone is enough for me to discount any religion that follows Creation as completely illogical. I could stomach them quite a bit more if one of them were to say that it was more of a metaphor and that God's days to our days are like human years to dog years. That the whole story was a myth to describe something that we couldn't understand at the time. That God had started the ball rolling at one point, and over the eons (or his "days") he manipulated what he had created to his whims, and those manipulations are what we now describe as evolution... it would all be much more reasonable, at least to me.

As it is, I find that wholesale acceptance of the idea of a magician creating everything with a puff of smoke - when I can clearly see the mirrors and wires - a bit off-putting.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » February 2, 2004, 2:29 pm

God has no limits.

He's quite capable of "dreaming up" the universe in an instant as we are capable of dreaming up a picture of a circle in our mind.

Creation in 7 days? God can do it.
Creation in 7 "seasons" God can do it.
Creation in 7 miliennia? God can do it.
Creation through Evolution? God can do it.

I'm not too concerned about the method. I recognise the cause of the effect.

We are the dream of God. The creator of universal laws, is abstracted from them. He can do whatever he wants.

Teaching evolution in class is fine, just so long as it's presented as our best guess, given a system that ignores the half of our reality.