Deward wrote: It should provide training and day care and give people the means to better themselves to get off welfare. Today it is just a dead end road.
Agreed. That is what it should be for, else put the money into a program that allows the children an opportunity to succeed where there original location failed them. But it has to be there.
I also don't have a problem paying taxes. I do believe that we pay way too fucking much though and I really hate how wasteful the government is with our tax dollars.
I'm not really sure we pay too much, we certainly pay more than we get out of it because of a lot of folks are dipping into the pocket of tax-payer's dollars so certain individuals and platforms remain busy and in the forefront of the public. I'm not so sure that will ever go away though. People who don't have any outside influences but their own are considered meglomaniacs. And you can be sure that person will be portrayed as such come election time.
Just something to think about...more of your tax money goes to jails than to welfare. I'd bet welfare would keep some lazy asses from commiting criminal acts to get enough food to eat .
i work in a grocery store ... i can pick out the people that are gonna pull out their (i love the name of the card) "Independence" card .. its lovely and bright orange. most of those people have about i would say ... 6 kids? maybe more ... why should i pay taxes so she can pump out some more babies and get even more money? i mean hell those people buy fucking shrimp and crab legs with food stamps im sorry but when the goverment pays you to have kids and to eat better then me .. i have a problem with it and whats even better is when some person that doesn't speak english has a FS card and doesn't even know how to use the damn thing ... or even better when they bitch at you because they can't get their hot chicken for free because its hot food isn't covered on food stamps ... i feel like screaming ... bitch shut up your eating for free
i know im gonna get bitched at for paragraphs too .. oh well lol
but our welfare system needs to go under * MAJOR RECONSTRUCTION * well thats my two cents .... from workin first hand with the welfare people ... =-)
Oh, hey I agree, I hate seeing people with 4 + kids bitch because they can't afford to feed them, but I also would hate to see those children starve to death. If I had my way I would put a two kid limit on everyone in the USA, rich or poor, because I believe over-population is a serious threat to the overall welfare of the world.
This, however is a problem beyond welfare. The same politicians who bitch about welfare want to cut funding for things like planned parenthood which educates people like that mother with six kids about sex and birth control methods(im talking condoms, and basic sex education here, not abortion btw). If more money went into programs that provide birth control methods and educate people about the consequences of sex, maybe there would be less problems. Seriously a vast number of people think that you won't have kids if you just pull-out before ejaculation, which is bullshit because of pre-ejaculate which happens during the process of sex. I wouldn't be suprised if some people still think that you have kids from using un-sanatized toilet seats, our sex education is that bad =p.
These moms on welfare don't want 6 kids, they simply are not given the means to do anything about it, because Bush & Co. has cut sexual education and birth control funding down to jack and shit. Also, Have you thought that possibly some of these mothers with multiple kids are rape victims? It happens a LOT in poverty stricken areas, it's hard for most of us to imagine how often it happens, it's fucking sick.
Damn those rape victims for having children, how dare they tempt men into raping them!!...They should be raped for such an atrocity!!
I hate seeing people with 4 + kids bitch because they can't afford to feed them, but I also would hate to see those children starve to death. If I had my way I would put a two kid limit on everyone in the USA, rich or poor, because I believe over-population is a serious threat to the overall welfare of the world.
Last I checked there were over a million people in jail just for smoking pot. In Wisconsin it costs $15k per inmate per year to hold them in prison. People convicted of non-violent crimes should be given a bracelet and house arrest. If I remember right it only costs $1500 per year to ankle bracelet somebody. Putting those pot smokers alone on the bracelet would save over a billion dollars a year at WI prices. It might cost a little more to bracelet someone elsewhere. If you included other non-violent criminals then the savings would be huge. I believe it would actually deter people from comitting a crime as well. Who wants to go out in public wearing a huge ankle bracelet. Paint it bright orange or flourescent green heh.
Last I checked there were over a million people in jail just for smoking pot. In Wisconsin it costs $15k per inmate per year to hold them in prison. People convicted of non-violent crimes should be given a bracelet and house arrest. If I remember right it only costs $1500 per year to ankle bracelet somebody. Putting those pot smokers alone on the bracelet would save over a billion dollars a year at WI prices. It might cost a little more to bracelet someone elsewhere. If you included other non-violent criminals then the savings would be huge. I believe it would actually deter people from comitting a crime as well. Who wants to go out in public wearing a huge ankle bracelet. Paint it bright orange or flourescent green heh.
Shit, that bracelet would become a status symbol among the stoners.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
Kylere wrote:You just do not get it, your mother was the EXCEPTION.
Show proof of that. Your observations of what goes on in Flint, MI, are not proof. Show us that the majority of welfare recipients are on welfare because they're too lazy to get a job or want to keep having children.
I have not always lived in one little podunk burg, and you can see it all over the US, here it is exceptionally bad, just like it is in most rust belt cities in PA, OH, IN, etc. The fact is that for the last ten years in Michigan we have had a bunch of toothless southerners coming to Michigan with the INTENT of popping out a kid for benefits, people PLAN a child to GET MONEY FROM WELFARE. The shit happens all over, so drop the smug BS, no welfare agency is ever going to release those statistics, they would lose half their budget.
I do not think it is a major overexageration to say that a minimum of 50% of those receiving welfare are abusing the system, especially as the system ENCOURAGES people to abuse it. Right now if you get $X from the government and medical dental each month, then you get a job to better yourself the next month, you get your pay, and lose all benefits. So it is actually beneficial for people to suck the government titty versus gettting off their lazy ass. As long as this is a truism of welfare, I am anti welfare.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Keverian FireCry wrote:I agree 100% they should not be having more children, but why would you have to be married to stay on welfare? Where does that come from? You're saying, they should hook up with some provider alpha male that they don't neccessarily have to love in order to stay on fucking welfare? Yeah, that's just what this country needs is forced marriage. Maybe they should also have to go to chruch every sunday aswell, and become a registered republican?
See this is where you show yourself to be a dumbass you accuse me of parroting a conservative viewpoint.
I think that is a woman gets pregnant then they should be required by law to identify the father if they want government money ( TAX DOLLARS) because the man should be FORCED to pay. I did not say they had to be married, I did not say they had to live together, but you went off in a clueless liberal rage and assumed I meant that. The male should be forced to provide for the child, of course on the other hand the cow pumping them out is just as responsible and she should have to WORK for a living also, as a matter of fact if both of the chromosome providers actually did any work including McDonalds jobs, they could support a kid.
But the current law allows women to live with a man, who they have multiple children with and tax dollars support while they live on his income and party on my tax dollars. That is a reality. If you climbed off your ivory white tower occasionally and looked around at street level maybe you would realize this.
If you want to go to church every sunday, that is your drug of choice, and I could care less, lots of people need a crutch.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Keverian FireCry wrote:Damn those rape victims for having children, how dare they tempt men into raping them!!...They should be raped for such an atrocity!!
This is so dumb it hurts, blaming rape on making welfare children is dumb as hell, and if someone has 6 children by 6 different men who all raped them, then the silly bitch needs to call the cops.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
I know I'm gonna get a new asshole ripped here , but here I go.
Wellfare should be eliminated all together ! This is the US , we were founded on freedom , Not welfare. If you want to live off the state , Go to Canada.
I too worked in service agencies in my younger years. We called the 1st and 15th "mothers day" You could tell because all the welfare moms would come in and feed the 12 kids , leave NO tip and make an incredible mess.
Welfare in the US is an attrocity, People should not be paid better than I am for pumping out more kids.
I am all for a work reform type deal , get these people some skills of some nature and have them actually Work for the money they recieve. One idea is to start a childcare system , using some of these people as the providers. I'm not saying all of them , there should be an extensive screening proccess involved. At least that way we (the working class) could get a more affordable daycare system.
Thats just my thinking , rip me if you feel the need , or provide constructive feedback.
Surely there's some middle ground to be found between the current, seemingly unnacceptable state of affairs and the "drown all the bitches and their mongrel offspring before they take all my dollahz" position?
Phugg_Innay wrote:I know I'm gonna get a new asshole ripped here , but here I go.
Wellfare should be eliminated all together ! This is the US , we were founded on freedom , Not welfare. If you want to live off the state , Go to Canada.
Canadians get paid a lot less in welfare than Americans do. But I'm sure you knew that since you are throwing rhetoric around so handily.
vn_Tanc wrote:Surely there's some middle ground to be found between the current, seemingly unnacceptable state of affairs and the "drown all the bitches and their mongrel offspring before they take all my dollahz" position?
Hey I'm just throwing out ideas here.
Yeah, if they have one they get help for a limited period of time, but only if they attend school. If they find a job they phase out benefits over time, and if they have another kid, they cut them off.
Plus we make the fathers and mothers equally liable to pay back the money received.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Kylere wrote:I have not always lived in one little podunk burg, and you can see it all over the US, here it is exceptionally bad, just like it is in most rust belt cities in PA, OH, IN, etc. The fact is that for the last ten years in Michigan we have had a bunch of toothless southerners coming to Michigan with the INTENT of popping out a kid for benefits, people PLAN a child to GET MONEY FROM WELFARE. The shit happens all over, so drop the smug BS, no welfare agency is ever going to release those statistics, they would lose half their budget.
I do not think it is a major overexageration to say that a minimum of 50% of those receiving welfare are abusing the system, especially as the system ENCOURAGES people to abuse it. Right now if you get $X from the government and medical dental each month, then you get a job to better yourself the next month, you get your pay, and lose all benefits. So it is actually beneficial for people to suck the government titty versus gettting off their lazy ass. As long as this is a truism of welfare, I am anti welfare.
Again, observations are not facts.
Last edited by Vetiria on January 21, 2004, 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't give me that "It's for the children" shit Krimson.
If the parents/parent cannot support the child, they will be taken away by Childrens Protective Services and placed in a Foster Home. Is this the perfect solution? Nope, but there is not one. I would rather have the money used to separate incompetent, incapable and worthless parents than to support the same so they do not have to work. If the parent then ends up in the street, fuck 'em I have to work to have a house, so should they.
Hell if you threaten to spank a child no matter what the child did, the child can call and be taken away, so when people are truly negligent they take the kids away also. We just need to stop being wishy washy and make taking care of the children you produce the responsibility of the parents.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
Listen, what about the mother and father of 4 that lost their home due to both parents being laid off from work, and have no relatives that can help them? Take their kids away and throw the parents to the streets. All BS aside, you really think your logic is infallible?
then they'll be adopted by caring, involved parents from the suburbs who send the little kid from the ghetto to private school and mold him into a successful person.
by the way when the 5-10 families that fit this description who are willing to adopt non-white kids each have 50 kids in their homes, i think the problem will be very close to being solved.
No I do not Krimson, but it is much less dumb ass than paying people to sit home and watch Jerry Springer all day, while I have to work my ass off and pay for daycare, and pay for my house, and medical, and automotive, and taxes, and well you get the idea.
Each time someone on welfare already has another child the only thing that means is they think it is the responsibility of society to take care of the fact that they cannot control their desire to fuck, and are too mentally challenged to use birth control. These are the last people that should be parents.
If you feel as some posters do that there is not enough foster care, and that it should be corrected, then they or you should do it, but it does not make sense to make all of society pay because of your problem with it. If everyone who wants tax money to pay for stuff, got into a little volunteerism of their own time and money rather than trying to control everyone else, then the government would be unneeded for social support.
It is just really moronic to insist that everyone has the right to X Y and Z, the US was founded on the concepts of life, liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness. There are no guarantees of success. Welfare needs to be assistance, not a lifestyle that sells itself to each generation more than the last.
Grants for tuition, limited term money on preconditions of education or actually seeking employment, requirements of no more children or no more support may seem heartless to some of you, but it is just a matter of reality. If you think more should be done, then you can empty your wallet/purse to make it happen. It is not my responsibility to pay for everyone, I am busting my ass here barely making it from paycheck to paycheck, and you know what, it would be so much easier to divorce my new wife, let her get assistance from the state/feds, and I could just keep living with her, and we would have an effective income boost of over 50%. There are even pamplets that would assist us in raping the tax dollars in that manner.
But I have some mother fucking pride, unfortunantly most people do not.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
I did not say they had to be married, I did not say they had to live together, but you went off in a clueless liberal rage and assumed I meant that.
Excuse me Kylere but you did say they shouldn't stay unmarried you fucking moron.
No more children while you cannot pay for those you have, no staying ummarried and not naming the father of the child, etc.
Idiot
If you climbed off your ivory white tower occasionally and looked around at street level maybe you would realize this.
I cannot believe the ignorance and hypocricy of this statement. I fucking volunteer two days a week to help planned parenthood in educating 6th-10th grade inner-city kids in south seattle about sex education, you fuckhead. I also work to clean up low-income neighborhoods in seattle once each month. Now, you climb off your ivory white tower you dick head and I fucking dare you to teach me something about the streets.
Last edited by Keverian FireCry on January 21, 2004, 8:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Kylere wrote:This is so dumb it hurts, blaming rape on making welfare children is dumb as hell, and if someone has 6 children by 6 different men who all raped them, then the silly bitch needs to call the cops.
For one thing, I was using something called caustic satire, look it up. Another thing, I was simply saying that it is possible that SOME women with multiple kids MAYBE could have been raped once, MAYBE even twice. I'm not saying that mom with 6 six kids was raped 6 fucking times. My main point, which you ignore is that sex education is completely fucking lacking in those areas, that it's not suprising to see poor people with multiple kids.
Kylere wrote:
But I have some mother fucking pride, unfortunantly most people do not.
What the fuck does pride have to do with the children already brought into the world, regardless of whether it was some scheming individual trying to bleed the system (not even CLOSE to the disillusional 50% number mind you, but whatever). The kids have the right to an education and if you have any fucking humanity, the resources to eat.
Eat and education
Nothing to do with your vision of black, yes I know you think they're predominantly black even if you attempt to deny it, women sitting in front of the tube watching Springer or Phil on the white conservative's dollar. After all, they are the only people that pay taxes right? You can't possibly think that financial resources shouldn't be used in lieu of actual bodies able to care for the child, could you? Really, could you be that fucking stupid?
Seriously, you travelled the world in the army yet you have seen absolutely nothing.
kylere this is no comparing whta working individuals make compared to what slobs sitting on wellfare make.
here are some differences.
1. i make a lot more money than somebody on wellfare
2. i can buy a house cause i'm not on wellfare
3. the money i earn translates into increased success for my family down the road if i manage it properly.
4. my children have a parental figure they can respect which helps contribute to a solid self image and contributing to their personal success.
it is totally irrelevant to say "i have to work for my money" etc. i would much rather work for my money and have the things i listed above. There is no comparison between the amount of personal success my children are likely to have and those of the wellfare slob, and that is priceless.
sure i agree that abuse of the wellfare system is problematic and should be dealt with. i dont think it is realistic to take an ultra-hard line stance though to solve the situation. it will create more long term problems than our current arguably flawed system.
Excuse me Kylere but you did say they shouldn't stay unmarried you fucking moron.
I see what you meant by your original statement
No more children while you cannot pay for those you have, no staying ummarried and not naming the father of the child, etc.
I understand now that you meant "...no staying unmarried while not having named a father of the child".
It was just unclear in how you stated it, however I do not regret calling you a fucking moron, because I still believe you are one and I'm sure you think the same of me.
Yay for us, we now share something in common: we both believe eachother to be fucking morons. I...I feel oh-so close to you now. Let's get marriage and adopt some welfare children!!?
Kylere's view is right in the extreme. There are people that abuse welfare systems. There are people that use those same systems appropriately as they were designed. Then you have people that the welfare system has failed.
Extremist views are often wrong or incomplete. Not knocking Kylere, I think we all do it occasionally. Personally I believe in welfare systems, leaving people to the wolves doesn't seem very enlightened to me. I also think abusers should be put in hard labor programs.
All posts are personal opinion.
My opinion may == || != my guild's.
"All spelling mistakes were not on purpose as I dont know shit ." - Torrkir
for starters you wouldnt have any fucking money without the government. As in they wouldnt print it, and back the currency with gold. Secondly, you'd have a hard time convincing people to respect your property rights (the real thieves) when all you have to bribe them with is a few squirrel pelts.
and i'm sure whatever company employs your ass would exist in the absence of a government to regulate commerce.
i mean in your world where the fuck to roads come from?
who delivers the fucking mail? who guarantees bank accounts?
ever heard of the FDIC? lets say the bank in your local mudhole town decides to say fuck you and they have bigger sticks than you and are keeping your money?
STFU with that nonsense.
I personally think most of these things are pretty good ideas Voron, but that doesn't negate the fact that we are all forced to pay for it. You use examples that most reasonable people would agree are valid activities of a government. I contend the scope of government has expanded beyond what is truly beneficial for our society. For example, I believe federal support of NPR and the Arts is just plain wrong. (That is just a tiny example that came to mind... I also disagree thoroughly with corporate welfare.)
I would like to see government taxation performed with a system that allows individuals to allocate our tax payment to those programs we deem worthwhile. You sweet liberal fellows could pay for the social welfare programs and us grimy old farts could fund the Defense Department and the Border Patrol. Maybe we could all agree to chip in for road building and other infrastructure (jobs) programs?
if you don't want to pay taxes, you can leave the country and go live somewhere that doesnt collect income taxes in an industry (sea shell collecting perhaps) that does not report income to the local authorities.
hell you can do that here in the US.
taxation is not voluntary. because the army doesnt just protect the people within the borders who pay.
yes saddam, you can bomb 185 Main St, we don't defend that property.
As an aside, some tax history. The U.S. didn't have a federal income tax until the Civil War. It was repealed at the end of the war. Another was instituted in 1894, but was struck down as unconstitutional in 1895. In 1913 the 16th amendment was ratified and an income tax was again implemented, and we have had one since.
Even though I certainly believe in a smaller government, there are some things that I do think is the proper role of government. Voronwe mentioned a couple of them in his post. I think the government should do things like defend the borders, establish property rights, establish the rule of law and enforce contracts. The government however does a lot of things that I think are outside of its role, that greatly increases how much it spends, and how much it taxes.
If we are going to have an income tax there are a lot of things that could be done to improve over the current one (besides just making it a lot less). I would prefer a flat tax, no exceptions. I also think they should do away with withholding. Sure people can look at the numbers and get a feel for how much they are losing from taxes, but its not the same for conveying the real impact as getting to write out a big check every year. And if we do this, we should move election day to the day after taxes are due .
You do understand that flat taxes don't take into account levels of income that are considered residual don't you? After a certain point when you turn the corner post food and shelter and providing a reasonable living situation for any children, the remainder becomes residual. So someone who can't barely afford to eat now has to pay more in taxes? That's insane and if you have any forethought, you'd realize what problems this would create.
What does a flat tax do about capital gains. How does it handle retirement shelters? Hell, what will it do to the million or so accountants out there? We going to pay for retraining CPA's?
It's so annoying having to argue reality to someone, even if their idea would benefit me greatly but makes no fiscal or humanitarian sense.
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MAJOR RECONSTRUCTION 
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