Flip-Flop

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Krimson Klaw
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Flip-Flop

Post by Krimson Klaw »

It's things like this that will keep clark from getting the nod from the Dems...

http://www.drudgereport.com/mattwc.htm
Two months ago Democratic hopeful Wesley Clark declared in a debate that he has always been firmly against the current Iraq War.

"I've been very consistent... I've been against this war from the beginning," the former general said in Detroit on October 26.

"I was against it last summer, I was against it in the fall, I was against it in the winter, I was against it in the spring. And I'm against it now."

But just six month prior in an op-ed in the LONDON TIMES Clark offered praise for the courage of President Bush's action.

"President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt," Clark wrote on April 10, 2003. "Can anything be more moving than the joyous throngs swarming the streets of Baghdad? Memories of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the defeat of Milosevic in Belgrade flood back. Statues and images of Saddam are smashed and defiled."

Now another speech before Congress...

"There's no requirement to have any doctrine here. I mean this is simply a longstanding right of the United States and other nations to take the actions they deem necessary in their self defense," Clark told Congress on September 26, 2002.

"Every president has deployed forces as necessary to take action. He's done so without multilateral support if necessary. He's done so in advance of conflict if necessary. In my experience, I was the commander of the European forces in NATO. When we took action in Kosovo, we did not have United Nations approval to do this and we did so in a way that was designed to preempt Serb ethnic cleansing and regional destabilization there. There were some people who didn' t agree with that decision. The United Nations was not able to agree to support it with a resolution."

Clark continued: "There's no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat... Yes, he has chemical and biological weapons. He's had those for a long time. But the United States right now is on a very much different defensive posture than we were before September 11th of 2001... He is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we."

More Clark: "And, I want to underscore that I think the United States should not categorize this action as preemptive. Preemptive and that doctrine has nothing whatsoever to do with this problem. As Richard Perle so eloquently pointed out, this is a problem that's longstanding. It's been a decade in the making. It needs to be dealt with and the clock is ticking on this."

Clark explained: "I think there's no question that, even though we may not have the evidence as Richard [Perle] says, that there have been such contacts [between Iraq and al Qaeda]. It' s normal. It's natural. These are a lot of bad actors in the same region together. They are going to bump into each other. They are going to exchange information. They're going to feel each other out and see whether there are opportunities to cooperate. That's inevitable in this region, and I think it's clear that regardless of whether or not such evidence is produced of these connections that Saddam Hussein is a threat."
That, ladies and gentlemen, is a flip-flop. Kerry and the other hopefuls have been pounding Dean for the same things lately too. Things may not be too rosy for Dean or Clark here shortly. If you change your mind on a policy, clearly state what changed your mind to let everyone know and move on. But never say you did not say something, because they will dig it up. Stick to your guns, but if you change your viewpoint, you better have a good reason as to why, that's all I'm saying.
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Post by Xouqoa »

I read somewhere also that at the time of some of his pro-Bush comments, he considered himself anti-Partisan.

I still think he'd make a good leader, but I could be wrong. If he gets the nomination I'll probably vote for him. If not I'll probly vote for Nader in the hopes of getting the Green party the 6% or whatever they need to be considered a national party. (If he runs.)
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Post by Zaelath »

Umm, wasn't he a general at the time? Can't your personal and professional opinions be different?

Regardless, I could give a shit if a politician lies about their opinion, all of them will do whatever they deem politically advantageous at crunch time anyway. Except maybe JFK, but then he chased more tail than Clinton ever did =)
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Post by Chidoro »

Who cares, Bush is an utter putz that has sent us toward international ruin

Seriously, who cares...I mean aside from the Rush pundits?
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

The Dems better care, if you don't, then you have no room to bitch.
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Post by Keverian FireCry »

Every politician will flip-flop and lie, and its happened since forever. I personally do not like Clark, but it is not because of flip-flopping. The vast majority of politicians will flip-flop and lie about political issues. I'm talking Democrat and Republican, so sorry, but I think this whole flip-flop argument is relatively unimportant.

I am personally a Kucinich fan, he has solid ideals and has always stated his ideas with very little bullshit. Dean, flip-flopping taken into consideration, is my next choice because he *usually* skips the bullshit and is not afraid to state what he feels, whether or not it may be considered extreme by some, like Kucinich.
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Post by Mplor »

It won't matter. The Dems aren't running for president this year. They're running to be the First Stand-In just in case the Army discovers WMD buried at Bush's ranch before Nov 2.

On second thought, even that wouldn't prevent some ppl from voting for him.
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Krimson Klaw
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Zaelath wrote:Umm, wasn't he a general at the time? Can't your personal and professional opinions be different?
That's a joke right? Are you saying you have no problem with a guy saying OH HELL YEA BOMB THEM LETS ROLL while he's a general, but when he runs for public office he says I WAS NEVER FOR THIS WAR IN IRAQ, AND I THINK IT WAS JUST PLAIN WRONG. I mean seriously, on your list of things that are A-ok to do, this is one of them? AND you support a guy like that? That's more infamous than Bush Sr's read my taxes, no new lips quote.


Yea it's like they are just going through the motions this time. I just don't see how someone could hate Bush so much, but then care less about the political stances his would be successor takes on issues. Out of them all, I guess I would choose Kerry simply because even though I disagree with a few of his viewpoints, he sticks to his guns and I know where he stands. Clark and Dean, on the other hand, will be changing their minds in 3-6 months and saying they never had said viewpoint or opinions.
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Post by Aabidano »

Just because someone is\was in the military doesn't mean they agree with what's going on. You're given an order and you march, with very few exceptions.

Were the comments pro-war before or after he retired? For senior military folks, your public opinions aren't really your own.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

I was in the military, you are never forced to lie no matter what you have heard. Stating a fact that intelligence shows there could be WOMD is one thing, saying that you think we should invade is totally your own opinion and not forced.
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Post by Kylere »

Military personnel are free to state their opinions as long as they make it clear it is an opinion.
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Post by archeiron »

Krimson Klaw wrote:I was in the military, you are never forced to lie no matter what you have heard. Stating a fact that intelligence shows there could be WOMD is one thing, saying that you think we should invade is totally your own opinion and not forced.
You were a general in the Pentagon asked to give press briefings to the public expressing the voice of the military?

I am impressed Krimson, I had no idea.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

I aim to please. *bows*
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Post by Kelshara »

was in the military, you are never forced to lie no matter what you have heard.
Military personnel are free to state their opinions as long as they make it clear it is an opinion.
You guys sure about that? It was stated a LOT of times by media that the military personnel in Iraq were ordered NOT to answer questions about this.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Yea you are right. There was plenty of times we were ORDERED not to talk to the media, or ORDERED not to make comments on certain subjects, or to say no comment. We were never ordered to state an opinion that was not our own however.
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Post by Kelshara »

Gotcha, pretty clear difference there. Thanks!
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Post by Zaelath »

He was asked to make the military case for war to a committee. He did just that, to the best of his ability.
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Post by Kylere »

Kelshara wrote:
was in the military, you are never forced to lie no matter what you have heard.
Military personnel are free to state their opinions as long as they make it clear it is an opinion.
You guys sure about that? It was stated a LOT of times by media that the military personnel in Iraq were ordered NOT to answer questions about this.
Actually 99% of the time we were told not to speak of something it was because of operational security, the whole concept that little bits of seemingly harmless data lead to possible intelligence for the other side of a conflict. 1% was because local commanders overdid their authority. But Krimson is entirely correct, I in 8 years served was never told to say something I did not beleive, nor was anyone I knew.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Zaelath wrote:He was asked to make the military case for war to a committee. He did just that, to the best of his ability.
That's 100% accurate.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

First series of quotes...

I can say as someone that was against the war, I echo his sentiments, there is no flip flop saying the war was the wrong course of action, but it's damn good to see people celebrating freedom they had never tasted before (and probably won't soon enough again). He also stated (and this I am not in agreement with but again it is not a flipflop) that Bush and Blair should be "proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt", that is a comment on leadership ability in the face of pressure, not on their chosen course of action.

Second series of quotes, as you stated, was him selling something to a committee, as he was told to do by his boss.

edit-you have gotten worse at typing (-124)
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Post by Salis »

Pherr the Dorf wrote:First series of quotes...

I can say as someone that was against the war, I echo his sentiments, there is no flip flop saying the war was the wrong course of action, but it's damn good to see people celebrating freedom they had never tasted before (and probably won't soon enough again). He also stated (and this I am not in agreement with but again it is not a flipflop) that Bush and Blair should be "proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt", that is a comment on leadership ability in the face of pressure, not on their chosen course of action.

Second series of quotes, as you stated, was him selling something to a committee, as he was told to do by his boss.
Fucking pisses me off on so many levels I don't know where to start. So I'll start here, Iraq is a fucking monumental disaster zone. Period. It has probably never been worse, and I say that as a Brit. America, and the many friends I have over there have ZERO understanding of the basics of a) the people, b) the culture c) the religion d) the dynamic e) any care.
Now, all of you people that do, you're under-represented, speak the FUCK -- OUT. Please.
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Post by Zaelath »

Wish I could remember who was interviewed on the Daily Show the other night, but his comment was pretty much thus:

"The Iraqi's saw us oust Saddam and at that point thought we could do anything, so if we didn't get the water back on or the electricity it was because we didn't want to."

Simplistic, but with the grip Saddam had on that country understandable. The whole thing must be quite the mind f**k for the Iraqis.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Salis wrote:
Pherr the Dorf wrote:First series of quotes...

I can say as someone that was against the war, I echo his sentiments, there is no flip flop saying the war was the wrong course of action, but it's damn good to see people celebrating freedom they had never tasted before (and probably won't soon enough again). He also stated (and this I am not in agreement with but again it is not a flipflop) that Bush and Blair should be "proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt", that is a comment on leadership ability in the face of pressure, not on their chosen course of action.

Second series of quotes, as you stated, was him selling something to a committee, as he was told to do by his boss.
Fucking pisses me off on so many levels I don't know where to start. So I'll start here, Iraq is a fucking monumental disaster zone. Period. It has probably never been worse, and I say that as a Brit. America, and the many friends I have over there have ZERO understanding of the basics of a) the people, b) the culture c) the religion d) the dynamic e) any care.
Now, all of you people that do, you're under-represented, speak the FUCK -- OUT. Please.
Under -represented? Have you been reading the posts here since we invaded Iraq? Most people that post here have been speaking out against it, there is only a small handful that thought then and still think that going in there guns blazing was the right thing to do. I think you are just ranting though so carry on I guess, heaven knows it's par for the course here.

-edit-and I am one of the main offenders, so don't take it personal.
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Post by Asheran Mojomaster »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I am running in 2008 with a platform of sweeping reforms in Congress that will only pay representatives the median income of the U.S. worker. I will also pass any bill that will legalize the sale and use of marijuana in the United States on a controlled basis, exactly as alchohol is today.
I'll vote for ya!
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Post by Aabidano »

Kylere wrote:Military personnel are free to state their opinions as long as they make it clear it is an opinion.
A senior officer can have all the opinions he wants. Getting on TV and saying they disagree with what's going will not only end his career, it could potentially put the of the men he's responsible for in danger.

Saying "I don't like this but we have to do it anyway" might be fine for a corporal, if you're above SGT it doesn't cut it. You back up your superiors 100% in public, regardless of your feelings about the matter. You can disagree and even argue with them in private to your hearts content.

I was never told to lie while in the military, there are things you don't talk about though. "No comment" and "I can neither confirm nor deny" covers the bases pretty well. Those that outright lie choose to. Not answering a question isn't lieing either for that matter.

*Edit - Jimmy Carter is a former nuclear powered submarine officer. Those boats presumably had the capability to carry nuclear weapons. He's anything but pro-nuke, would you call that a flip-flop?
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Not at all, but him saying he thinks we should have nukes and he fully supports them while he's an officer, then saying he is 100% against nukes and never agreed that we should have had them when he gets out and runs for office IS a flip flop. If that's not, then you tell me what is, hmm?

-edit-does not matter anyway, my man Kerry took IOWA! YAY. heh.
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