Swordsmanship

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » January 14, 2004, 10:53 am

I don't suppose anyone knows any good resources to gain information on this, by chance? I got armed over the holidays.. grainy pictures inc:

I'm looking for training exercises to use with them to use as part of an exercise program. I wasn't sure if anyone knew where to go - I'm a total n00b at this and wouldn't know what are the "best" resources even if they bit me on the ass.

So, I ask for guidance from the loveable psychotic people on these boards.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » January 14, 2004, 10:56 am

First- Make sure those swords are reeeeally sharp.\

Second- Use the star wars kid video as your one and only training resource.

That is all.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 14, 2004, 11:01 am

1. find a kendo instructor.
2. buy some retan (sp) wood swords - helps you keep both your ears as well as all 10 fingers.
3. practice any form of agility/dexterity exercises you can.
4. this is going to sound silly but, you know those wrist weights joggers wear, get those for your ankles and wrists, the heavy ones. Helps build wrist strength and make sure whatever Kendo instructor you find makes you really practice your footwork. It is more important than you could ever imagine in any sword fighting martial art or exhibition.
5. i suggest getting a black iron stand, or a laquered sword stand. They run around $120 for a good one that can hold your katana, wakazashi, tanto as well as one more sword of your choice.
6. don't ever touch the blade with your fingers, the oils in your fingerprints if left for a long peroid of time will rust and etch the metal and totally ruin your sword.
7. keep out of reach of small children and stragi's.

have a good time^^ they look like nice swords.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » January 14, 2004, 11:55 am

Make sure you also get a polish kit with a whetstone, polishing cloth, cleaning cloth and choji oil to keep the blades in good condition. Never set the swords with the blade facing down, always up, to avoid damaging the blade, dulling it, or causing buildup on the keen edge of the blade.

Beyond that, Sylvos' suggestions are great.

Also, you may want to get a small balance beam. Just something to stand on while doing exercises. I found that balance > all when it came to handling blades.

An 8-12 foot 2x6 raised about 6 inches above the ground should be sufficient. Just something to be able to stand/move/step/turn on is perfect.

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » January 14, 2004, 12:07 pm

I'd talk to Zorro. he's knows some stuff

Kwonryu DragonFist · January 14, 2004, 12:15 pm

Stragi's avatar got all the moved ya need!

Seriously though, have you trained Iaido and Kendo in yer days?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » January 14, 2004, 12:52 pm

I have no training, unfortunately.
Even worse, I'm about dead certain there are no kendo instructors anywhere near my area.. I live in WV. Anything besides straight decking the cow out in the backyard isn't all that socially accepted.

Thanks for the tips so far, btw.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » January 14, 2004, 12:55 pm

Anytime.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 14, 2004, 12:55 pm

might i suggest a nice place above the fireplace for those wonderful swords you have then^^

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » January 14, 2004, 1:02 pm

If you can't find Kindo, look for Aikido as all the movements there can be substituted using a sword. If you live in or near Morgantown, WV I know there are places you can study. Also, WVU offers several classes you can attend. Also, Arnis is one sweet course if you can find a place to learn that. Kempo is not a bad choice either...

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 14, 2004, 1:07 pm

I prefer an oak bokken over a shinai for practice. The bamboo is much lighter than most swords (I've never held a real forged katana, but steel is steel no matter how it's tempered) so when I'd pick up my sword, it felt like I was moving through water. Of course, the bokken should not be used for contact sparring, unless you like broken fingers

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » January 14, 2004, 1:31 pm

Bokken are good for the movements and balance training. Shinai is a most for any sort of sparring.

I know it was mentioned before, but adding those joggers weights to your wrists and ankles during motion practices really helps focus the muscles. Plus, you don't get that underwater feeling when the blade you're swinging is heavier than your practice sword.

i.e. I had a bokken that weighed about 3 pounds that I practiced with. A few years back I aquired an officer katana from WWII that was taken from a captured officer and kept as a memento by a neighbor. When he retired and moved to Palm Springs, he passed the sword and wakazashi to me as he preferred to retire without having to relive those memories. The katana was about 8 pounds.

Needless to say, I found it very difficult to practice with the katana as I was unaccustomed to the weight. I picked up 3 pound weights for my ankles and wrists and began motion training again with the bokken. 3 months later I was able to start using the katana for training. After a few weeks, I tossed the weights back on, and now I hardly feel the weight of the katana without the weights on. It almost feels like a weightless extention of my arm.

Trias · Post by **Trias** » January 14, 2004, 2:00 pm

buy a wooden practice sword so you don't cut yourself up

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » January 14, 2004, 2:02 pm

Trias wrote:buy a wooden practice sword so you don't cut yourself up

...

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » January 14, 2004, 5:44 pm

The blades themselves are exorbantly dull - the only thing sharp is the very tip (probably for the better). At any rate.. Sylvos, do you know of any outlets where one could find high quality wooden swords? I've got a stand for them that I'm going to be mounting in my bedroom, wooden, came with.

Moon: I live up beside parkersburg, about 1hr-2hrs outside of Morgantown. Unfortunately, WVU-P doesn't offer anything more than Judo, and the only martial arts place I know of went out of buisness about 2yrs ago.

I really enjoy the feel of all three, and while I am not the most muscular person (5'11, 180, girly arms I think is the term) the two smaller ones fit and feel the best in my grip. As is, I hardly notice them - they are fairly lightweight.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 14, 2004, 5:50 pm

most martial arts stores will carry them, i'd look online for any type of large fantasy arms dealer.
Fantasy Cutlery
Museum Replica's
Sardo
to name a few.
they are like $7 bucks for a retan wood sword.
buy like half a dozen cause i can guarantee you'll break a few fucking around like everyone does.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 14, 2004, 5:56 pm

Buy a gun. I don't even know what you look like but I bet you look silly with a mock up of a Japanese katana in your hand.

It takes years to learn how to properly use one, then what are you going to do with it? Cut someone's head off if they try to break in to your house?

You'll cut your arm off.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 14, 2004, 6:13 pm

You sound like Ralphie's mom in "A Christmas Story."

You'll shoot your eye out! You'll shoot your eye out!

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » January 14, 2004, 6:32 pm

Actually Kyu, all I want it for is part of an exercise regimine (sp?) since I have never done well with traditional upper body exercise systems. *shrug*

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 14, 2004, 6:33 pm

well if he's honestly interested in learning the art, then more power to him.
You can't even carry a sword nowadays in most public areas without confiscation as well as a hefty fine.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 14, 2004, 6:33 pm

All the prior tips have been excellent, and I'd add an endorsement for Aikido as a substitute for Kendo if Kendo is not available to you.

The only thing I really have to add is that before you go swinging those swords around, make sure they are full tang (I may be screwing up that term). I believe it means that the metal for the blade goes all the way to the bottom of the handle. Many times, decorative or collectible swords do not have 'full tang' and will break if you strike anything with them or swing them with too much force.

Edit: found this:

A sword's tang relates to how much steel is in the handle. A full tang sword has a solid piece of steel as wide and thick as the blade itself. In essence, the blade IS the handle, it just has side pieces or cord attached for a better grip. This is the strongest sword tang available (and most expensive). Most swords on the market are designed for display purposes only. Because of this, most have what is called a "rat-tail tang," where a thin piece of metal, usually no more than 1/2" wide, runs through the handle and connects to the pommel.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 14, 2004, 6:40 pm

I would recomend Kempo over Aikido, but I took both so its a toss up.
Best thing to do is take fencing if you are serious. Yes, fencing.
Don't laugh either, finesse is one of the best teachers around for learning how not to get hit.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 14, 2004, 6:43 pm

Sylvos wrote:I would recomend Kempo over Aikido, but I took both so its a toss up.
Best thing to do is take fencing if you are serious. Yes, fencing.
Don't laugh either, finesse is one of the best teachers around for learning how not to get hit.

Fencing is the bomb, but really for that kind of sword?

Also for my clarification, is it Kempo or Kendo? I always thought it was Kendo... or maybe there is Kempo and Kendo?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 14, 2004, 6:44 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Actually Kyu, all I want it for is part of an exercise regimine (sp?) since I have never done well with traditional upper body exercise systems. *shrug*

anyone who teaches any sort of weapon style will tell you to excercise to gain strength. swinging a sword around is shitty excercise in itself if you want to build strength.

I'm just trying to save the embarrasment of going to some weapons training dojo with your dungeons and dragons store bought katana and asking them to teach you how to use it.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 14, 2004, 6:44 pm

Kempo Karate w/ focus on stand up fighting
Kendo - weapon art
Aikido - grapple/break/redirection art

simple break down.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 14, 2004, 6:48 pm

Fencing can be done with several weapons.

Sabre/Cutlass
Rapier/Ouvale
Rapier/Main Gauche
Rapier

anyway most people learn with a rapier, and most professional fencing is done with a rapier or the "non-lethal" version (the name of which escapes me).

It's mainly to learn finesse and excellent footwork. But not neccessary at all.
Plus not many people go out and swordfight on a friday night, well unless you are in the SCA or a similiar rennaissance recreation society, in which you'd be ridiculed anyway so...go figure.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 14, 2004, 6:50 pm

kyoukan wrote:I'm just trying to save the embarrasment of going to some weapons training dojo with your dungeons and dragons store bought katana and asking them to teach you how to use it.

Could be a HATORI HANZO sword!

(thanks Sylvos)

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 14, 2004, 6:51 pm

oh and if you want to gain strength, exercise and go to a gym^^
use wrist/ankle weights when practicing^^
k im done now.
im probably embaressing Sirensa.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » January 14, 2004, 6:55 pm

Aranuil wrote:The only thing I really have to add is that before you go swinging those swords around, make sure they are full tang (I may be screwing up that term). I believe it means that the metal for the blade goes all the way to the bottom of the handle. Many times, decorative or collectible swords do not have 'full tang' and will break if you strike anything with them or swing them with too much force.

Edit: found this:
A sword's tang relates to how much steel is in the handle. A full tang sword has a solid piece of steel as wide and thick as the blade itself. In essence, the blade IS the handle, it just has side pieces or cord attached for a better grip. This is the strongest sword tang available (and most expensive). Most swords on the market are designed for display purposes only. Because of this, most have what is called a "rat-tail tang," where a thin piece of metal, usually no more than 1/2" wide, runs through the handle and connects to the pommel.

Excellent suggestion. I can't believe I forgot about that.

Actually, no sword should be swung against an object, period. There are Shinai made specifically for fencing practice, but more often than not, you'll break one within a few hours, if not minutes. The forged or folded swords are like sidearms issued to police officers. Care for it, clean it, break it down, put it back together, but only aim it (swing it) if you mean to use it.... Which in the case of swords, should be practically never.

Kwonryu DragonFist · Post by **Kwonryu DragonFist** » January 14, 2004, 6:56 pm

HATTORI HANZO ruled!

Well! I have OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS of swords Aka but i rarely use them anymore(peacetime and all).

I mainly used them for form-training before, but it was chinese forms.

I did have some japanese swords too, but since i've never trained any japanese Budo art so i just put them on the shelves. I had the Ancestor to the japanese samurai sword once!

I was a fan of Halberds before as well(the chinese ones) and had a nice Halberd! Anyways, different forms heh but i have friends specializing in Kendo and Iaido. Was never my cup o tea though!

Start training with Bokken, should be easy to get where ya live ?

Are you planning on competing or is it just a way of life for you?

For self-defence i wouldnt recommend swords!

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 14, 2004, 6:59 pm

Sylvos wrote:anyway most people learn with a rapier, and most professional fencing is done with a rapier or the "non-lethal" version (the name of which escapes me).

Is épée what you're thinking about?

noel · Post by **noel** » January 14, 2004, 7:05 pm

Rapier's are actually solid blades that don't bend like they do in the varying 3 musketeer movies where they have more often than not used épées.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 14, 2004, 7:17 pm

yes, thank you masteen, epee's also known as wire weenies =)
I do not trust epee's they break more often than not.
i'd rather use covered rapier or a wooden practice sword if i were fencing.

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » January 14, 2004, 8:09 pm

masteen wrote:
Sylvos wrote:anyway most people learn with a rapier, and most professional fencing is done with a rapier or the "non-lethal" version (the name of which escapes me).
Is épée what you're thinking about?

a foil?

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » January 14, 2004, 8:22 pm

Kempo Karate w/ focus on stand up fighting
Kendo - weapon art
Aikido - grapple/break/redirection art

Simple Bouncing Breakdown:

A. Use Kempo to get drunk subject on the ground
B. Remove Broken Bottle from subject's had to avoid dealing with Kendo
C. Use Grappling to bend drunks' arm in various Keylocks in any remedial flow drill.
D. Comfort shaken grilfriend of the bounced with a little of my Vitamin S.
E. Smile afterward because the whole thing was fun!

Ducru · Post by **Ducru** » January 14, 2004, 8:25 pm

smaller ones fit and feel the best in my grip. As is, I hardly notice them - they are fairly lightweight.

In fits of anger my wife accuses me of having the same problem, bud. I just tell her how much smaller it would look an a guy that was 6'7"

Wait... what were you talking about???

Ducru

*edit - have mastered teh quote option with 4 edits!!*

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » January 15, 2004, 12:01 am

I've been studying Japanese swordsmanship formally under a sensei for 15 years now. I study Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu (Kenjutsu) and Mugai Ryu Iaido.

Send me a PM and we can chat.

In the meantime, some of this has been stated already..but let me just share a little more with you.

First, I want to make sure that you are not using stainless steel swords. Wallhangers (swords that look pretty and are not meant for use) are generally made from stainless steel. Those swords have rat tail tangs and are not safe to use in any fashion.

There are several ways you can get formal instruction.

1. Kenjutsu (Koryu - which is pre Meiji Restoration and Gendai which is post). Kenjutsu is the art of fighting with the sword after it is already removed from the scabbard (saya). It consists of suburi (warm up exercises if you will), kata, tachiuchi (paired exercises), tameshigiri (test cutting of bamboo and rolled goza/straw-tatami mats, and hei-ho (martial strategy). This is definitely the hardest to find. I am lucky to be able to train in koryu kenjutsu for just over 15 years (with two of those years in Japan)

2. Iaido (the art of drawing the sword (nuki), striking down your opponent(s) swiftly, flicking the blood from the sword (chiburi) and resheathing (noto). There are also old schools (koryu) and new schools (gendai). This is a very precise art and it involves no other training other than very rigid forms. There is generally no strategy, no test cutting, and there is no paired exercises/sparring. The most common and standardized form of Iaido is a modern version called Seitei Gata or Zen Ken Ren. This was formed by the All Japan Kendo Federation. It is a collection of 12 kata from various schools of swordsmanship. It was/is an attempt to standardize kata. There are a few kata from my iaido school in there (Mugai Ryu). Zen Ken Ren is popular here in the USA.

3. Kendo is a sport. It was created after the carrying of and training with swords was banned in Japan. They disguised their training as sport by using shinai (split bamboo poles that represent the sword) and competing for points. Kendo is still popular in Japan and somewhat popular here in Kendo clubs in the USA. There is no real sword work in Kendo. Kendo is pure sport. THere are only four targets in Kendo...the very center of the head and 15 degrees to either side of center. The throat...the abdomen front and sides...and the wrist. In Kendo you must call your strikes as you strike. You yell MEN (head cut) ...DO (abdomen)....TSUKI (throat)....KOTE (wrist). The points are so exact that you must hit them squarely and precise to get a point. Also, your shinai cannot touch your opponent's shinai at the time of strike...or the point is not given. Kendo will not teach you swordsmanship...but it will teach you precision and speed...timing and tempo.

4. Aikido is a martial art that focuses on using your opponents own energy to defeat them with throws and locks. Their use of the sword is very limited. They only use bokken and they do not teach a sword art perse...they teach unarmed vs. armed opponent and the like.

To begin your training...and keep in mind learning from a book is no substitute for instruction...pick up a few things.

1. A nice hickory or white oak bokken
2. A subari-to (weighted heavy wooden practice sword for strength building)
3. A book by Dave Lowry called, Bokken: Art of The Japanese Sword

I can talk more about this at length with you if you wish...and point you to your nearest local dojo.

Here is a pic...the second from the bottom is a subari-to...there are a few bokken and a few swords and a naginata on there as well.

Also here are a few mpegs from my dojo. I am the one in the dark keiko-gi (top) and doing the tameshigiri (cutting). Just to give you a small feel for what it is like.

http://members.cox.net/staticandsilence/Morestuff.JPG

http://members.cox.net/hanashibugeisha/Keiko.mpg

http://members.cox.net/hanashibugeisha/TestCut.mpg

http://members.cox.net/hanashibugeisha/TestCut2.mpg

Regards,

Moon

Karae · Post by **Karae** » January 15, 2004, 1:04 am

Krimson Klaw wrote:First- Make sure those swords are reeeeally sharp.\

Second- Use the star wars kid video as your one and only training resource.

That is all.

lol

Asheran Mojomaster · Post by **Asheran Mojomaster** » January 15, 2004, 1:36 am

Haha, btw, never exercise with swords while drunk. My step-dad, who is a 3rd degree black belt in Ninjutsu, and has taken a shitload of other martial arts and stuff (personally I dont know much about em), used to use swords for exercise, until one day he got a little tipsy and decided he wasnt too drunk to still practice. Needless to say, 5 mins later he had a sword through his leg.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2004, 1:50 am

ninjitsu doesn't have belts.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » January 15, 2004, 3:46 pm

kyoukan wrote:ninjitsu doesn't have belts.

Sr. Professor James R. Adkins is the first person in Arizona to hold an 8th degree black belt in Kenpo under Master Larry Tatum and also holds black belts in Ninjitsu and Shaolin Kung Fu.

http://www.jadkinskenpo.com/about.html

from the above website. Perhaps traditional ninjitsu did not award belts but it seems a ton of these martial facilities are awarding belts. So your statement is false, unresearched and not surprising.

Cheers

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » January 15, 2004, 4:03 pm

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 15, 2004, 4:42 pm

Traditional Ninjitsu hasn't existed in almost 500 years..
and that didn't have belts.
However, the americanized form of Ninjitsu which exploded onto the Martial Arts scene in 1982 started with a "belt" system, it originally had a ranking system in the form of stripes on the sleeve of the gi.
Kyoukan's statement wasn't outright false, its wrong for modern ninjitsu, but correct for Traditional, since the original ninjitsu was comprimised of shaolin monks who were temple protectors, who would break their hand repeatedly til the bones fused into a single "Blade" used for killing. That art died out when the modern world hit japan etc...etc...etc..

*edit* oh yes and i forgot to add, the "ninja" didnt originate til around 40 or 50 years after the extinction of the art, where you had assassins trained in the honorable path of vengeance by dying masters. blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda.

Kwonryu DragonFist · Post by **Kwonryu DragonFist** » January 15, 2004, 5:27 pm

Atokal wrote:
kyoukan wrote:ninjitsu doesn't have belts.
Sr. Professor James R. Adkins is the first person in Arizona to hold an 8th degree black belt in Kenpo under Master Larry Tatum and also holds black belts in Ninjitsu and Shaolin Kung Fu.

We dont have belt-ranks in Shaolin Temple either!

The only "rank" we have is the title you get when getting a Master!

If my master was from the older generation lets say Shi De Ling, i would get the title Shi Yong Long, if my master was from a younger generation, lets say Shi Yong Ting, i would get the title Shi Yen Long.

Title
-----
De (anyone training under a De Master will get Yong)
Yong (anyone training under a Yong Master will get Yen)
Yen

Shaolin Belts!

Thats just something Sifu's use in the west as yet another way to rake in the cash!

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 15, 2004, 5:27 pm

Tokey hits Kyoukan for a homer!

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2004, 5:40 pm

Atokal wrote:Sr. Professor James R. Adkins is the first person in Arizona to hold an 8th degree black belt in Kenpo under Master Larry Tatum and also holds black belts in Ninjitsu and Shaolin Kung Fu.

http://www.jadkinskenpo.com/about.html

from the above website. Perhaps traditional ninjitsu did not award belts but it seems a ton of these martial facilities are awarding belts. So your statement is false, unresearched and not surprising.

Cheers

I guess if you are referring to that bastardized americanized hollywood horse shit version of ninjitsu then I guess it has belts yeah. I was talking about actual ninjitsu though. I'm sorry that I failed to make the distinction for people like you who think it is some skinny japanese guy in his pyjamas bouncing around wth nunchuks and using "ninja magic" to throw fireballs at his enemies.

If you have a black belt in ninjitsu then you don't know anything about ninjitsu at all. I'm not really an expert on the art, but I know that much. Which is, of course, a whole lot more than you ever will. Nice try on the google though!

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 15, 2004, 5:44 pm

lol ninja magic haha

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » January 15, 2004, 6:13 pm

WTF!!?? Don't dis ninja powah! ><

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » January 15, 2004, 6:25 pm

I have for years been trying to find an instructor that will teach me how to hit someone in the eye with a shuriken from 100 meters. Also, I want those smoke bombs and the little sharpened jacks(forgot name) to thwart my persuers. Let us not forget the split-toe boots for hot rope climbing.

Sho Kusogi! I am going to whomp you!

Oh! Also need some Chuck Norris special blue jeans for HIGH KICK! Yah!

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 15, 2004, 6:27 pm

caltrops.

real ninjas use caltrops +2 though, as I'm sure atokal will point out to us after a rousing session of google.