Go Bush!

Mort · Post by **Mort** » January 7, 2004, 6:53 pm

Fucking Idiot.....

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story. ... oc=NW_5-L3

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » January 7, 2004, 7:00 pm

Actually, in my opinion the best thing to come from Bush in quite a while. Have to see how it works out in actual implementation of course (if he can sell it to congress) but it looks promising.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 7, 2004, 7:01 pm

I have to agree w/ Chmee.

Why don't you explain why you don't like the idea, Mort, aside from thinking that Mexicans ruin our country's white fabric

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 7, 2004, 7:03 pm

The only problem is how they propose to keep these people in these shit jobs that no legal will take...

edit: nm, just realised, they're just going to document these people and only give them enough status to do shitty seasonal work, not give them any form of citizenship/residence.

Mort · Post by **Mort** » January 7, 2004, 7:22 pm

Because IMHO whether they say so or not, they are awarding illegal activity. I dont mind the people that come here to work, but the security threat of this alone bogglies my fucking mind in a post 9/11 era. Plus, didnt Reagan try this in 86 and it was supposed to help, it didnt. Cant post too long from work, but I will get into it later.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 7, 2004, 7:34 pm

This is beneficial security wise.. everyone will have "papers" to check. Das ist gud mein Furer!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 7, 2004, 7:51 pm

bascially Bush is trying to court latin voters who are increasingly becoming a force in electoral politics.

Adelrune Argenti · Post by **Adelrune Argenti** » January 7, 2004, 8:15 pm

He is not courting Latino voters. Registered Latino voters are divided on this issue, just as much as the rest of the country is.

Quite simply it is a realization that there are jobs that need to be done that most legal citizens either won't do or can't do well. What is wrong with getting people who want to work, and who will do a great job, to do it. If we give out Guest Worker status, at least we have some way of tracking the 8-10 million illegals we have in this country.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » January 8, 2004, 12:07 am

I am a Bush supporter...but he is dead wrong in this case.

First of all, he is giving illegal immigrants amnesty..after they register the government will help them obtain jobs (that US citizens do not want...working in crop fields...manual labor)...and he did this all without addressing the fact that our borders are not secure...which is the single biggest gap in our nation's security at the moment.

Think about it. Any citizen of Mexico that has hesitated crossing the border illegally now has motivation to do just that very thing. If Congress passes this, the current level of illegal aliens in this country will jump from 10 million to 50 million within 10 years time.

As far as finding them jobs? I tell you what is going to happen. The jobs that they will have will be menial jobs like harvesting vegetables and the like. The employers that were paying these workers VERY low wages...often times under the table...will now have to pay them at least minimum wage as well as provide some sort of insurance coverage. The price of produce will rise and it will cost you as much to go to the grocery store as it does for a new car payment.

If Bush had addressed the issue of our borders being so insecure, then I would not have as big a problem as I do with this at the moment. Bush needs at least 30% of the hispanic vote in this year's election. He is pandering to get that vote. Even though there is division in the hispanic community over this...President Bush knows that all he needs is 30% of the hispanic vote...so he is doing this for votes...because he once said that he would never grant amnesty to illegal aliens....but it's an election year...and if he wants to continue on with his vision for America (a vision I do support)...then he has to do what he has to do. However I do not believe that the end justifies the means.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think the people coming here for a better life should be underpaid and not be able to support their families. But I also do not think coming here ILLEGALLY should be rewarded with guaranteed amnesty, guaranteed job, etc.

Oh, and one more thing. I live in an area with a large illegal alien population. You know what happens to the money these illegal aliens earn?? They send it back to Mexico to their families there. I see them at the Western Union every day ...lined up to send the money. Under this new plan we will be able to tax their income...but the money they earn will not go to strengthen our economy....it will be sent back to Mexico.

I bet Mr. Fox is happy...he can now get rid of all his problems...get rid of the poor and destitute...send them our way...and still get the US dollar.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » January 8, 2004, 12:52 am

Immigration reform is sorely, sorely needed. Bush's proposal isn't the best thing we could do, but I'd rather have it than the status quo. Perhaps the next administration will have something to build on.

Interestingly, Bush is about the only person who would have a ghost of a chance at passing a bill like this in the current political climate. A Dem prez would never get it out of the House, and a Dem congressman wouldn't even get it out of committee. The Republican rank and file are kept under such strict control by their leadership that it would prolly never even enter the imagination.

Canoe · Post by **Canoe** » January 8, 2004, 12:55 am

Just had to reply and say moonwynd - that sig is priceless.....

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » January 8, 2004, 10:11 am

Regarding the whole "giving amnesty to illegal behavior" argument. When the illegal behavior is coming into the country to try to work, often in an attempt to better their own lives, or the lives of their children, or to send money back to help out relatives, I find it hard to work up much righteous indignation. Also, by this logic should we basically never repeal a law? Doing so would just be rewarding the people that are breaking it. If a law is wrong then it deserves to be repealed.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » January 8, 2004, 2:56 pm

Chmee wrote

When the illegal behavior is coming into the country to try to work, often in an attempt to better their own lives, or the lives of their children, or to send money back to help out relatives, I find it hard to work up much righteous indignation.

You have got to be kidding me. I do not care how noble one's reasons are for breaking the law...the law is still the law and one should be punished for breaking the law..not rewarded.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 8, 2004, 3:08 pm

i guess i deserve about 23,258 speeding tickets then

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » January 8, 2004, 3:13 pm

If you are caught speeding...you get a ticket...pretty simple

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » January 8, 2004, 3:34 pm

Moonwynd wrote:If you are caught speeding...you get a ticket...pretty simple

And we should never raise any speed limit anywhere because it would be granting "amnesty" for those that speed there?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » January 8, 2004, 3:37 pm

You know, if they all come in, we can then RFID tag them and be able to track them via satellite for removal.

Personally I am entirely against any protections or rights being given to people who illegally enter the country.

The US allows a LOT of immigration legally, more than any other country in the world.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 8, 2004, 3:43 pm

Moonwynd wrote:Chmee wrote
When the illegal behavior is coming into the country to try to work, often in an attempt to better their own lives, or the lives of their children, or to send money back to help out relatives, I find it hard to work up much righteous indignation.
You have got to be kidding me. I do not care how noble one's reasons are for breaking the law...the law is still the law and one should be punished for breaking the law..not rewarded.

Exactly right, England should come kick all you law breaking motherfuckers to the curb!

You're exaggerating the "reward" here, they're not giving them any path to citizenship, they're simply attempting to track (and tax) illegal workers.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » January 8, 2004, 3:46 pm

http://www.bushin30seconds.org/

Mort · Post by **Mort** » January 8, 2004, 3:54 pm

Skogen wrote:http://www.bushin30seconds.org/

Really cool website dickhead.... the same website that just had to remove a clip that portrayed Bush as Hitler.

idiot

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » January 8, 2004, 3:56 pm

Mort wrote:
Skogen wrote:http://www.bushin30seconds.org/
Really cool website dickhead.... the same website that just had to remove a clip that portrayed Bush as Hitler.

idiot

lol

oh no! they portrayed bush as hitler?! run to the hillz. wtf are you getting all worked up over?

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » January 8, 2004, 4:06 pm

Mort wrote:
Skogen wrote:http://www.bushin30seconds.org/
Really cool website dickhead.... the same website that just had to remove a clip that portrayed Bush as Hitler.

idiot

What's your point?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 8, 2004, 4:58 pm

his point is all mexicans are stupid and smelly and want to steal all the stuff his parents gave him

Mort · Post by **Mort** » January 8, 2004, 5:12 pm

kyoukan wrote:his point is all mexicans are stupid and smelly and want to steal all the stuff his parents gave him

Gah, whatever.... now Im a racist... please

I will actually make VV mistake #1 and backpedal a little on this, after doing a lot of reading on this "Plan" depening on how's it's implemented and what passes, might be a good thing. I just hope they are very serious about security, and this if nothing else, atleast forces them to pay some taxes which IMHO is a good thing.

But, these people DID BREAK THE LAW, no matter what way you slice it. When my gramps came here from Italy, there were no immigration laws, so don't start that shit.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » January 8, 2004, 5:31 pm

This sucks!

Signed,
Out of work lettuce picker

Apostate · Post by **Apostate** » January 8, 2004, 5:42 pm

Mort wrote:When my gramps came here from Italy, there were no immigration laws, so don't start that shit.

Might have started earlier than you think, though. First immigration laws were passed in 1875 (bit before the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882), and the first quotas were enacted after the first world war (3% of their nationality already living in the US).

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 8, 2004, 6:23 pm

Mort wrote:Gah, whatever.... now Im a racist... please

Everytime someone in any form of government right down to the student council of your local high school passes a law regarding mexicans that doesn't involve outright genocide, you whine about it here. What other possible take on the subject am I supposed to get from that?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 8, 2004, 7:26 pm

she's got a point!

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » January 8, 2004, 7:32 pm

Apostate wrote:First immigration laws were passed in 1875 (bit before the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882)

Had to have been earlier than that, my ancestors on my Mom's side were refused entrance and jumped ship in Baltimore. That was in the 1820s

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 8, 2004, 7:37 pm

They broke the law! DEPORT AABIDANO!

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 8, 2004, 7:58 pm

Mort wrote:Because IMHO whether they say so or not, they are awarding illegal activity. I dont mind the people that come here to work, but the security threat of this alone bogglies my fucking mind in a post 9/11 era. Plus, didnt Reagan try this in 86 and it was supposed to help, it didnt. Cant post too long from work, but I will get into it later.

The point isn't to rewqard illegal activity, but to make legal their activity. They're going to do it anyways, and there are too many of them to stop. However, that doesn't mean we can't turn it into an advantage...I just don't think they should get minimum wage rights if they will or not...

I'd just like to note that Bush still severely needs to be voted out.

-=Lohrno

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » January 8, 2004, 8:03 pm

There are legal ways to enter this country. This country was built from immigrants and we should continue to encourage LEGAL immigration.

For the past 20 years I have heard the same thing. Starting with my aunt's husband and his family who LEGALLY immigrated here to the family that own's my favorite Mexcian restaurant. All of those people worked very hard to get into this country legally and build a new life. Over time other members of their family were able to join them LEGALLY but it took a while. For a long time they too sent money back to help them. They are US Citizens and damn proud of it and every illegal immigrant and this peice of shit idea is a slap in their face.

But no I wouldn't support sending Aabidano back... I don't believe in punishing people for things their ancestors did over 100 years ago, that too is bullshit and was a crappy idea...

Marb

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 8, 2004, 8:07 pm

Marbus wrote:They are US Citizens and damn proud of it and every illegal immigrant and this peice of shit idea is a slap in their face.

Sort of...

Do you know how long it takes to immigrate legally, and what a big fucking pain in the ass it is now? Back in your granparents' day, it wasn't bad, but now it can take upwards of 10 years in some cases. Minimum maybe 1-2. So I think we're partly to blame for illegals.

That doesn't mean I think the Drivers Liscence thing was a good idea, I think it was pretty fucking stupid.

If we just made it easier to immigrate, we'd all be fine...
If you don't believe me, do a little reasearch on immigration...

-=Lohrno

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » January 8, 2004, 8:41 pm

As somebody who has a choice of either trying to go through the immigration system the legal way or moving back when I finish my degree, I must admit that rewarding illegal immigrants (because ho matter how you look at it, that is what this will do) feels like a slap in the face. I have lived here for 5 years, been in a relationship for most of the time (still am) and basically the only chance I have of staying is to get married.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 8, 2004, 10:07 pm

Kelshara wrote:basically the only chance I have of staying is to get married.

Yep...and that way'll take you like 3 years to get your Green Card, and about 5 years to get Citizenship.

Actually I think if you've been here for 3 years illegal, or legal you can apply for your green card...

Yeah they really need to make everything easier for all types of immigrants.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » January 8, 2004, 11:33 pm

Chmee wrote:

And we should never raise any speed limit anywhere because it would be granting "amnesty" for those that speed there?

Wow, I guess you told me! Oh wait, that is the most assinine analogy I have heard today. Plain and simple this is NOT merely a way to track and tax illegal immigrants already working here. This IS giving illegal immigrants their first foothold to establishing citizenship. With this plan, after three years they may apply for a Green Card and begin the process of establishing citizenship.

Let's see...you enter the USA illegally...you are given a three year permit and travel visa to go back and forth between your country and the USA...the government GETS you a job...you pay taxes....and after three years you can begin the process to become a citizen. If I were wanting to enter the country illegally ...I certainly would consider risking illegal entry since the reward is now so very high.

Tell me again how this is right in anyone's mind? Tell me again that the benefits of tracking 10 million illegals presently in this country will outweigh the influx of more illegals coming here illegally because they know they will be rewarded by this new law. Sorry folks...you can delude yourself into thinking this will be great for our nation...that it will provide poor, downtrodden people with jobs that no American would take....but you are dead wrong if you think this is not rewarding people that are breaking the law.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 9, 2004, 4:57 am

Moonwynd wrote: Tell me again how this is right in anyone's mind? Tell me again that the benefits of tracking 10 million illegals presently in this country will outweigh the influx of more illegals coming here illegally because they know they will be rewarded by this new law. Sorry folks...you can delude yourself into thinking this will be great for our nation...that it will provide poor, downtrodden people with jobs that no American would take....but you are dead wrong if you think this is not rewarding people that are breaking the law.

Yes yes, technically but the thing is they'll come in anyway. We need cheap labor, they need money. It's a symbiotic relationship that only the law gets in the way of.

Immigration law definitely needs to be completely overhauled anyway though. This is kind of like a bandaid on a gaping wounnd.

-=Lohrno

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » January 9, 2004, 11:06 am

Moonwynd wrote:Chmee wrote
When the illegal behavior is coming into the country to try to work, often in an attempt to better their own lives, or the lives of their children, or to send money back to help out relatives, I find it hard to work up much righteous indignation.
You have got to be kidding me. I do not care how noble one's reasons are for breaking the law...the law is still the law and one should be punished for breaking the law..not rewarded.

No, I am not kidding. When I hear of someone running afoul of a stupid law, my first thought is not that the person should be punished anyway. My thought is that its a stupid law and we should get rid of it.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 9, 2004, 11:20 am

Moonwynd wrote: Sorry folks...you can delude yourself into thinking this will be great for our nation...that it will provide poor, downtrodden people with jobs that no American would take....but you are dead wrong if you think this is not rewarding people that are breaking the law.

It's not dellusional, it's happening right now, the poor downtrodden are working in these types of jobs as we speak. Why not have them pay taxes on the money they earned. Hell, they work and pay taxes for three years and can then become citizens? Where the hell is the problem? People who bust their humps to be apart of the country and help their families at the same time is pretty noble.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » January 9, 2004, 12:14 pm

Hell, they work and pay taxes for three years and can then become citizens? Where the hell is the problem? People who bust their humps to be apart of the country and help their families at the same time is pretty noble.

hum guess I'll have to stop being a lawful person and stay here illegally then! How stupid does that sound?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » January 9, 2004, 12:16 pm

Kelshara wrote:As somebody who has a choice of either trying to go through the immigration system the legal way or moving back when I finish my degree, I must admit that rewarding illegal immigrants (because ho matter how you look at it, that is what this will do) feels like a slap in the face. I have lived here for 5 years, been in a relationship for most of the time (still am) and basically the only chance I have of staying is to get married.

I vote you go back!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » January 9, 2004, 12:54 pm

I vote you go back!

Mom?!?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » January 9, 2004, 12:58 pm

Kelshara wrote:
I vote you go back!
Mom?!?

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » January 9, 2004, 1:11 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Kelshara wrote:basically the only chance I have of staying is to get married.
Yep...and that way'll take you like 3 years to get your Green Card, and about 5 years to get Citizenship.

Actually I think if you've been here for 3 years illegal, or legal you can apply for your green card...

Yeah they really need to make everything easier for all types of immigrants.

Well, my wife and I got married One year ago, and she just got her greencard two days ago.
To me, this new proposal looks like another great way for employers to hold foreign workers over the fire. I know the details are not in yet, but something smells fishy, and I feel this would open a lot of doors to exploitation.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 9, 2004, 2:02 pm

Kelshara wrote:hum guess I'll have to stop being a lawful person and stay here illegally then! How stupid does that sound?

Pretty stupid but that's ok if you don't get it

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » January 9, 2004, 3:43 pm

Where the hell is the problem? People who bust their humps to be apart of the country and help their families at the same time is pretty noble.

I will tell you where the problem is...THEY CAME IN HERE ILLEGALLY! I don't give a rat's ass if they are busting their assess to help their families...they came in to this country illegally...and more will come...and more will be rewarded for coming in illegally.

One more thing. The city I live in has a very large Mexican community. There are areas of town where no one speaks English. If you want to be part of this great nation then you can:

A. Come here legally
B. Learn to speak English
C. Become part of the community.

I do not want people to lose their sense of their own culture or hetitage. I simply want people to become part of our communities by integrating themselves....AFTER they come to this country legally.

We need to tighten our borders and minimize illegal immigration before we grant this sort of amnesty. THen after that we need to have a policy to impose a limit on how many people can become citizens of the USA. This goes for not only Mexican people...but for any non citizen of this country....period.

Oh, and the reason American's won't take the jobs that these people have traditionally filled....is because employers know they can hire illegals and grossly underpay them....and they won't hire American workers that have rights to fair pay (minimum wage at the least) under the law. Once this law is passed and wages have to be increased since the under the table payments will no longer occur like they are presently...unemployed American's will compete with illegals for jobs that they once couldn't get.

I live in a city of 1/2 million...our entire economy revolves around the aircraft industry. We have Boeing, Raytheon, LearJet, Cessna and a multitude of other supporting industries. After 9/11 and the economy turned south...there were over 12,000 people let go from these industries. I was one of these people. I was unemployed for 7 months. I had 70 resumes and applications out on the market. I was facing foreclosure on my home and vehicle after all of my savings ran out. I would have shoveled shit for minimum wage just to earn some form of pay. I couldn't even get a job doing construction, tile and brick work, etc. because the illegal community here is employed in all of those positions. So go ahead and tell me that the jobs these people will fill are jobs that Americans do not want...and I will call BS...because I almost lost everything....and would have taken one of these jobs in a heartbeat. And I was one of the lucky ones....because people I know did lose everything.

Post by **Sylvus** » January 9, 2004, 4:00 pm

Moonwynd wrote:I would have shoveled shit for minimum wage just to earn some form of pay. I couldn't even get a job doing construction, tile and brick work, etc. because the illegal community here is employed in all of those positions. So go ahead and tell me that the jobs these people will fill are jobs that Americans do not want...and I will call BS...because I almost lost everything....and would have taken one of these jobs in a heartbeat. And I was one of the lucky ones....because people I know did lose everything.

But you only would have done that because of an economic downswing. I guarantee you that you would have quit that job the second the economy started correcting and a job opened up that was even a half-step up from shovelling shit, not to mention one that was in the industry that you want to be a part of.

The problem is that those jobs need to be filled all the time, and it is a fact that across the country many (if not most) of them would go unfilled if it weren't for "illegals". Try to say with a straight face that you or any of those poor friends of yours would have given even one moment's consideration of applying for one of those jobs on, say... 8/11/01. I'm willing to bet that you didn't find it such an evil when you were living comfortably and needed someone to mow your lawn, fix your roof, or cook or clean at a nearby restaurant.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 9, 2004, 4:05 pm

Skogen wrote: To me, this new proposal looks like another great way for employers to hold foreign workers over the fire. I know the details are not in yet, but something smells fishy, and I feel this would open a lot of doors to exploitation.

Aye probably...I thought it was an election move (and it most likely is...) but a chance to put dem ferners in dere place would be a Bush move too...

-=Lohrno

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 9, 2004, 4:08 pm

Moonwynd wrote:THen after that we need to have a policy to impose a limit on how many people can become citizens of the USA. This goes for not only Mexican people...but for any non citizen of this country....period.

If you're not Mexican, it's quite a long process to get naturalized anyways...We already have quotas for green cards, visas, etc. Hey BTW what ever happened to "Give us your poor weak tired huddled masses yearing to breathe free."?

-=Lohrno

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » January 9, 2004, 4:11 pm

that was when the huddled masses were all white anglo christians.