Greenspan warns of Protectionism

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Greenspan warns of Protectionism

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http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyP ... ID=3865529
"But governments need to resist the pressure to give in to the lobbying of narrow interest groups who cannot benefit at the expense of the wider public," she said.

U.S. steel tariffs, ruled illegal by the World Trade Organization last week, European curbs on farm imports, and this week's U.S. import caps on some Chinese textiles, are some of the protectionist tendencies emerging everywhere, say economists.

Key world trade talks broke down in Cancun, Mexico in September over farm subsidies, a divisive issue between rich and poor countries.
Countries using trade as leverage against each other, I thought this went with the territory but Green says its getting worse. I really have trouble reading the bottom line here. Countries try to stick it to each other tradewise, but end up hurting themselves with slow economic growth. I guess he is basically telling Bush to backoff to help the economy back onto its feet, but i feel like I am missing something else here. Someone else take a stab at this one.

-edit- After reading it a few more times it became a little clearer. Basically Greenspan does not want leadership to bow to special interest (read big business) and keep imports flowing to prevent inflation. Big Bux companies would love nothing more than for Bush to eliminate trade from overseas competition so they can jack prices in the states, not only hurting our economy, but the world at large too. Seems like Bush is already doing just that with the textile maneuver in China. On the one hand I can appreciate US companies complaining about imports hurting them, but on the other hand I see them farther down the road sticking it to us with less competition to worry about. That is why isolationism is such a bad idea and makes no sense for a capitalistic country like ours
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Post by Chmee »

Bush's trade record has been pretty poor. The steel tariffs being the big example, but also recently with textiles and indirectly with the renewed subsidation of farming. Tariffs on the whole hurt the country that imposes them. A tariff may help a particular interest group, in the case of steel the steel companies since it shields them from foreign competition. But it hurts any industry that uses steel since they have to pay higher prices (and of course ultimately any end consumer that buys products that use steel). The problem is often the downside is spread out or harder to quantify so it is less visible. For the protected group however the results are more visible and immediate, so can be useful to curry favor (and votes) from the protected group. The negative effects are still there though even if they are difuse.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Yea I agree 100%. I am interested to hear Adex's take on this because we both initially favored Bush, but I now view all of his policies with open skepticism (Big business frat bother being in office). I am still to the right, but no longer support Bush. Wake up Adex and tell me what you think.
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Post by Salis »

Yea the basic argument is that every country should do what it's best at given its infrastructure, wage rates etc, and then we should all trade goods with each other to get what we need. Protectionism goes completely against that, you end up making goods that you could have gotten for less elsewhere and doubly, you end up not making goods you're better at making..

Of course there's the whole political argument that people lose jobs in the market that is becoming less economical (in developed nations usually heavy manufacturing) and the politicians are always motivated to heed public opinion and protect their markets.

Europe is a pretty stunning case in point. We subsidise our farmers using the Common Agricultural Policy, giving them money to produce goods we don't need or can get for less elsewhere. We then produce a surplus of food/wine/milk/whatever for more than we could buy it for, subsidise the prices in order to sell the goods on the world market at a competitive price, and destroy the farmers in 2nd and 3rd world countries export markets. And we've been doing it for 20 years.

Trade is one of the really big stumbling blocks in world politics, and has been for some time. Cancun was a real let down, luckily things can (hopefully!) only go forward from here.
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Post by Cartalas »

Salis wrote:Yea the basic argument is that every country should do what it's best at given its infrastructure, wage rates etc, and then we should all trade goods with each other to get what we need. Protectionism goes completely against that, you end up making goods that you could have gotten for less elsewhere and doubly, you end up not making goods you're better at making..

Of course there's the whole political argument that people lose jobs in the market that is becoming less economical (in developed nations usually heavy manufacturing) and the politicians are always motivated to heed public opinion and protect their markets.

Europe is a pretty stunning case in point. We subsidise our farmers using the Common Agricultural Policy, giving them money to produce goods we don't need or can get for less elsewhere. We then produce a surplus of food/wine/milk/whatever for more than we could buy it for, subsidise the prices in order to sell the goods on the world market at a competitive price, and destroy the farmers in 2nd and 3rd world countries export markets. And we've been doing it for 20 years.

Trade is one of the really big stumbling blocks in world politics, and has been for some time. Cancun was a real let down, luckily things can (hopefully!) only go forward from here.
Curious if Europe and I know The United States both produce more food then is consumed, where does the Surplus Go?
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Post by Forthe »

Cartalas wrote:
Salis wrote:Yea the basic argument is that every country should do what it's best at given its infrastructure, wage rates etc, and then we should all trade goods with each other to get what we need. Protectionism goes completely against that, you end up making goods that you could have gotten for less elsewhere and doubly, you end up not making goods you're better at making..

Of course there's the whole political argument that people lose jobs in the market that is becoming less economical (in developed nations usually heavy manufacturing) and the politicians are always motivated to heed public opinion and protect their markets.

Europe is a pretty stunning case in point. We subsidise our farmers using the Common Agricultural Policy, giving them money to produce goods we don't need or can get for less elsewhere. We then produce a surplus of food/wine/milk/whatever for more than we could buy it for, subsidise the prices in order to sell the goods on the world market at a competitive price, and destroy the farmers in 2nd and 3rd world countries export markets. And we've been doing it for 20 years.

Trade is one of the really big stumbling blocks in world politics, and has been for some time. Cancun was a real let down, luckily things can (hopefully!) only go forward from here.
Curious if Europe and I know The United States both produce more food then is consumed, where does the Surplus Go?
This is what much of the fighting at the last WTO meeting was about. I was very surprised when the poorer countries formed and maintained a trading bloc.
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Post by Cartalas »

Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Salis wrote:Yea the basic argument is that every country should do what it's best at given its infrastructure, wage rates etc, and then we should all trade goods with each other to get what we need. Protectionism goes completely against that, you end up making goods that you could have gotten for less elsewhere and doubly, you end up not making goods you're better at making..

Of course there's the whole political argument that people lose jobs in the market that is becoming less economical (in developed nations usually heavy manufacturing) and the politicians are always motivated to heed public opinion and protect their markets.

Europe is a pretty stunning case in point. We subsidise our farmers using the Common Agricultural Policy, giving them money to produce goods we don't need or can get for less elsewhere. We then produce a surplus of food/wine/milk/whatever for more than we could buy it for, subsidise the prices in order to sell the goods on the world market at a competitive price, and destroy the farmers in 2nd and 3rd world countries export markets. And we've been doing it for 20 years.

Trade is one of the really big stumbling blocks in world politics, and has been for some time. Cancun was a real let down, luckily things can (hopefully!) only go forward from here.
Curious if Europe and I know The United States both produce more food then is consumed, where does the Surplus Go?
This is what much of the fighting at the last WTO meeting was about. I was very surprised when the poorer countries formed and maintained a trading bloc.

If there is a Surplus why not give it to poorer countries.
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Post by archeiron »

Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Salis wrote:Yea the basic argument is that every country should do what it's best at given its infrastructure, wage rates etc, and then we should all trade goods with each other to get what we need. Protectionism goes completely against that, you end up making goods that you could have gotten for less elsewhere and doubly, you end up not making goods you're better at making..

Of course there's the whole political argument that people lose jobs in the market that is becoming less economical (in developed nations usually heavy manufacturing) and the politicians are always motivated to heed public opinion and protect their markets.

Europe is a pretty stunning case in point. We subsidise our farmers using the Common Agricultural Policy, giving them money to produce goods we don't need or can get for less elsewhere. We then produce a surplus of food/wine/milk/whatever for more than we could buy it for, subsidise the prices in order to sell the goods on the world market at a competitive price, and destroy the farmers in 2nd and 3rd world countries export markets. And we've been doing it for 20 years.

Trade is one of the really big stumbling blocks in world politics, and has been for some time. Cancun was a real let down, luckily things can (hopefully!) only go forward from here.
Curious if Europe and I know The United States both produce more food then is consumed, where does the Surplus Go?
This is what much of the fighting at the last WTO meeting was about. I was very surprised when the poorer countries formed and maintained a trading bloc.

If there is a Surplus why not give it to poorer countries.
That would undermine the farm economies of those countries, which could impact their ability to be self sufficient for food and damage one of the major sources of revenue in such nations (excluding Nike moving in, or selling heroine/blood diamonds/etc).
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Post by Kelshara »

Surplus food is handled in several ways:

1. Farmers are paid not to produce as much as they can (they leave land barren etc).
2. Food that could be used for human consumption is used as animal food.
3. They at least used to burn large amounts of wheat, not sure if that is done anymore.
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Post by Cartalas »

archeiron wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Salis wrote:Yea the basic argument is that every country should do what it's best at given its infrastructure, wage rates etc, and then we should all trade goods with each other to get what we need. Protectionism goes completely against that, you end up making goods that you could have gotten for less elsewhere and doubly, you end up not making goods you're better at making..

Of course there's the whole political argument that people lose jobs in the market that is becoming less economical (in developed nations usually heavy manufacturing) and the politicians are always motivated to heed public opinion and protect their markets.

Europe is a pretty stunning case in point. We subsidise our farmers using the Common Agricultural Policy, giving them money to produce goods we don't need or can get for less elsewhere. We then produce a surplus of food/wine/milk/whatever for more than we could buy it for, subsidise the prices in order to sell the goods on the world market at a competitive price, and destroy the farmers in 2nd and 3rd world countries export markets. And we've been doing it for 20 years.

Trade is one of the really big stumbling blocks in world politics, and has been for some time. Cancun was a real let down, luckily things can (hopefully!) only go forward from here.
Curious if Europe and I know The United States both produce more food then is consumed, where does the Surplus Go?
This is what much of the fighting at the last WTO meeting was about. I was very surprised when the poorer countries formed and maintained a trading bloc.

If there is a Surplus why not give it to poorer countries.
That would undermine the farm economies of those countries, which could impact their ability to be self sufficient for food and damage one of the major sources of revenue in such nations (excluding Nike moving in, or selling heroine/blood diamonds/etc).


Hmmm seems like a cat chasing his tail, If we give them food they dont starve but their economy goes in the shitter. But if we dont give them food they starve but their economy is better.
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Post by archeiron »

Cartalas wrote:Hmmm seems like a cat chasing his tail, If we give them food they dont starve but their economy goes in the shitter. But if we dont give them food they starve but their economy is better.
I believe that a more appropriate expression would be "Catch 22", but in any case you are correct. The difficulty lies in creating a stable, self-supportive economy without allowing the nation to starve to death in the interim. Many charity organizations seem to favour the idea of money going to set up farms, dig wells, etc rather than direct food supplies as this type of charity has long term benefits.

Digging clean wells (in Bangladesh, for example) has instant gratification and lasting side effects. That geographic area is plagued with bad wells that have high lead content. Digging clean wells allows the local residents to have access to clean water for drink, and to grow their food. Giving them food and water doesn't really solve their problems.

Treat the illness not the symptoms.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

I hate to see people lose jobs at an older style american steel mill, but if tariffs are slung around on our exports by other countries, then we'll net more lost jobs, as our exports sales drop.


I think Bush is doing the wrong thing.

He needs votes in those steel states. I belive he's pushing those tariffs to protect potential votes.

My gut says that politics, not economics are guiding this.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

How can you say that, but then say you think he is doing the right thing?
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

He's doing the wrong thing in my opinion.

He needs to earn his votes another way.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

I must have mis-read wrong for right, sorry.
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Post by Forthe »

Cartalas wrote:
archeiron wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote: Curious if Europe and I know The United States both produce more food then is consumed, where does the Surplus Go?
This is what much of the fighting at the last WTO meeting was about. I was very surprised when the poorer countries formed and maintained a trading bloc.
If there is a Surplus why not give it to poorer countries.
That would undermine the farm economies of those countries, which could impact their ability to be self sufficient for food and damage one of the major sources of revenue in such nations (excluding Nike moving in, or selling heroine/blood diamonds/etc).
Hmmm seems like a cat chasing his tail, If we give them food they dont starve but their economy goes in the shitter. But if we dont give them food they starve but their economy is better.
You seem to be missing the point. This isn't a charity in any way.

Farmer A can produce kiwi for $2 a kiwi.

Farmer B can produce kiwi for $5 a kiwi.

Farmer B's government subsidizes Farmer B so his effective cost is $1.50 a kiwi. Still the overall cost of a Farmer B kiwi remains at 5$.

Farmer B produces more kiwi than his local market can use so he sells his kiwi in Farmer A's market. Farmer A doesn't have government subsidies to aid him so he can't compete. All the local farmers in Farmer A's market go tits up. Local production in Farmer A's market crashes as it can't sustain itself. You can imagine export possibilities for Farmer A are very limited.

Farmer B's fellow citizens are paying more for kiwi than they have to (via tax dollars). They are in a way subsidizing kiwi for Farmer A's citizens as well but at the same time devastating Farmer A's local industry.

It is a sweet deal if you are Farmer B. Pretty much sucks for everyone else tho.
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Post by Cartalas »

Forthe wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
archeiron wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Forthe wrote: This is what much of the fighting at the last WTO meeting was about. I was very surprised when the poorer countries formed and maintained a trading bloc.
If there is a Surplus why not give it to poorer countries.
That would undermine the farm economies of those countries, which could impact their ability to be self sufficient for food and damage one of the major sources of revenue in such nations (excluding Nike moving in, or selling heroine/blood diamonds/etc).
Hmmm seems like a cat chasing his tail, If we give them food they dont starve but their economy goes in the shitter. But if we dont give them food they starve but their economy is better.
You seem to be missing the point. This isn't a charity in any way.

Farmer A can produce kiwi for $2 a kiwi.

Farmer B can produce kiwi for $5 a kiwi.

Farmer B's government subsidizes Farmer B so his effective cost is $1.50 a kiwi. Still the overall cost of a Farmer B kiwi remains at 5$.

Farmer B produces more kiwi than his local market can use so he sells his kiwi in Farmer A's market. Farmer A doesn't have government subsidies to aid him so he can't compete. All the local farmers in Farmer A's market go tits up. Local production in Farmer A's market crashes as it can't sustain itself. You can imagine export possibilities for Farmer A are very limited.

Farmer B's fellow citizens are paying more for kiwi than they have to (via tax dollars). They are in a way subsidizing kiwi for Farmer A's citizens as well but at the same time devastating Farmer A's local industry.

It is a sweet deal if you are Farmer B. Pretty much sucks for everyone else tho.
So why doesnt Farmer A's Country tell Farmer A's market you can sell Farmer B's Product at a inflated highly taxed price.


And thank you for clearing it up for me :)
Last edited by Cartalas on November 21, 2003, 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Good post Forthe.
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Post by Chmee »

Forthe, as Krim said, good post.

Cartalas, if I am understanding your question correctly you are asking why the country where farmer A resides doesn't put a high tariff on Farmer B's Kiwi's. There are a few problems. First, the consumer may not be in Farmer A's country. Farmer A may be trying to export food to Farmer B's country. Or they may both be trying to sell to consumers in a third country. If it is in Farmer A's country, then if the country puts tariffs on kiwi's from Farmer B's country it still raises a problem. Farmer B may sell to a middleman in another country for 1.60 (so he still makes a profit) and the middleman may then sell to Farmer A's country for 1.90, still undercutting Farmer A. Farmer A's country could put a tariff on kiwi's from all countries, but then it faces the potential that other countries will put in their own retalitory tariffs.
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Post by Cartalas »

Chmee wrote:Forthe, as Krim said, good post.

Cartalas, if I am understanding your question correctly you are asking why the country where farmer A resides doesn't put a high tariff on Farmer B's Kiwi's. There are a few problems. First, the consumer may not be in Farmer A's country. Farmer A may be trying to export food to Farmer B's country. Or they may both be trying to sell to consumers in a third country. If it is in Farmer A's country, then if the country puts tariffs on kiwi's from Farmer B's country it still raises a problem. Farmer B may sell to a middleman in another country for 1.60 (so he still makes a profit) and the middleman may then sell to Farmer A's country for 1.90, still undercutting Farmer A. Farmer A's country could put a tariff on kiwi's from all countries, but then it faces the potential that other countries will put in their own retalitory tariffs.
Ok I get it





FARMER A IS FUCKED
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Post by Chmee »

Also, just to sum up the win loss columns

Winners

Farmer B - The big winner, he gets to sell his product even though someone else can produce it normally a lot cheaper.

Consumers of Kiwis - They get cheaper kiwi's since the taxpayers of farmer B's country are helping to foot the bill.

Losers

Taxpayers of Farmer B's country - They have to subsidize Farmer B. Note that the consumers of kiwis might also be a taxpayer. In this case you have to compare how much they are taxed versus how much they save buying cheaper kiwis to determine if they go in the win/loss column.

Farmer A - Biggest loser, despite being able to grow cheaper kiwis (minus the subsidies) he is out of a job.
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Post by Chmee »

Also note that overall the economy is worse off than otherwise, because it is producing kiwis and $5 apiece rather than the $2 that it could be doing.

Sorry forgot to include that in the last post. :)
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Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

Thank God I hate kiwis.
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Post by kyoukan »

Stuff like that always goes on. Another, real life example is what goes on in western Canada at the grocery store:

Locally grown head of lettuce: $1.49-1.89 a head
California head lettuce: .69 a head

California farmers get enormous subsidies from the federal government in form of millions and millions of dollars a year per farm. They also hire (usually illegal) mexican migrant workers and pay them a fraction of a living wage. Canadian farmers have to pay their pickers a fair wage, get nothing from the government and have to sell their vegetables alongside the US competitor's products. NAFTA prohibits our government from stopping the cheaper produce from coming up from the south. I always make it a point to buy local produce, but if you are raising a family on a budget you can't make a choice like that.

The bush administration is now on it's third warning from the WTO to lift crippling protectionist tariffs on canadian lumber that the lumber and milling industry lobby convinced him to implement. As a result of it, wood prices in the states have skyrocketed because the US lumber industry doesn't have to compete with anyone. It now costs on average $8000 more to build a house in the US than it did 2 years ago and its all in lumber costs. This is making the millionaire and billionaire owners and stockholders in huge forestry corporations even more wealthy than before but everyone else in both countries are paying for it via much higher prices and lost jobs. The same thing is happening with australia and europe and steel tariffs. Now China is flipping out because Bush just announced new tariffs on textiles coming from there. IMO its most evident in Canada however because it is a massive violation of nafta.

Sometimes trading with other countries does cost jobs in yours (okay probably all the time it does). But the economy as a whole is theoretically improved by it.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Lots of things become clear when you understand this process, I never thought of the lettuce example before, but it makes sense. Also, this explains why USA has such a casual approach when it comes to clamping down on illegal imigrants, because they are actually good for business.
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Post by archeiron »

Krimson Klaw wrote:Lots of things become clear when you understand this process, I never thought of the lettuce example before, but it makes sense. Also, this explains why USA has such a casual approach when it comes to clamping down on illegal imigrants, because they are actually good for business.
*nods* The (possibly soon to be repealed) law that allows illegal immigrants to get driving licenses wasn't done as an act of charity. It was to help the workforce of California get to their low paying jobs faster. :P
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Post by Chidoro »

kyoukan wrote:Stuff like that always goes on. Another, real life example is what goes on in western Canada at the grocery store:

Locally grown head of lettuce: $1.49-1.89 a head
California head lettuce: .69 a head

California farmers get enormous subsidies from the federal government in form of millions and millions of dollars a year per farm. They also hire (usually illegal) mexican migrant workers and pay them a fraction of a living wage. Canadian farmers have to pay their pickers a fair wage, get nothing from the government and have to sell their vegetables alongside the US competitor's products. NAFTA prohibits our government from stopping the cheaper produce from coming up from the south. I always make it a point to buy local produce, but if you are raising a family on a budget you can't make a choice like that.

The bush administration is now on it's third warning from the WTO to lift crippling protectionist tariffs on canadian lumber that the lumber and milling industry lobby convinced him to implement. As a result of it, wood prices in the states have skyrocketed because the US lumber industry doesn't have to compete with anyone. It now costs on average $8000 more to build a house in the US than it did 2 years ago and its all in lumber costs. This is making the millionaire and billionaire owners and stockholders in huge forestry corporations even more wealthy than before but everyone else in both countries are paying for it via much higher prices and lost jobs. The same thing is happening with australia and europe and steel tariffs. Now China is flipping out because Bush just announced new tariffs on textiles coming from there. IMO its most evident in Canada however because it is a massive violation of nafta.

Sometimes trading with other countries does cost jobs in yours (okay probably all the time it does). But the economy as a whole is theoretically improved by it.
The problem is, America gets killed nearly everywhere else. Part of the whole NAFTA uprising was that the US was/is getting short-changed on nearly everything they export. It's really a Reagan animal and that's a shame. It's his worst legacy. Unfortunately, it seems that Canada is paying for poor trade agreements w/ Japan, middle east, and Eastern block countries.
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Post by kyoukan »

No, NAFTA benefits americans immensely. There are certain groups that suffer for it though, just like up in Canada.
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Post by Krurk »

The tariff was not implimented because Bush felt it was good for business, instead it was done because it would help him gain states for the 2004 election that are important to his re-election campaign. The EU realizes this and aimed their retaliatary tariffs towards non-essential goods from states that would be crucial to Bush, namely Florida (citrus exports, an industry that accounts for roughly 11 billion in the state).

Some links explaining this in greater detail.

http://www.economist.com/business/displ ... id=2216227

http://www.economist.com/business/displ ... 05114c646c

Many issues affecting current companies with labor are only going to be magnified in the coming decade as the baby boom generation begins to retire and an insufficient amount of new workers replace them, leaving firms unable to defray the costs of their pension and insurance plans. As was mentioned earlier, this is why cheap domestic labor appeals to so many industries because they gain no benefits and no taxes are paid for them. Paying Juan $5 a day may sound like a good deal, but paying Juan $5 a day, and not paying in an addition $5 a day in benefits and a few more in taxes almost dictates that companies use this labor to remain competitive.

Maybe someone can dig up numbers to verify or disprove this, but it is my understanding that the US has the 2nd highest tax on businesses, and a below average tax on citizens. Once you start adding up federal, state and local taxes, benefits, costs associated with various regulatary compliances such as EPA, OSHA and other related agencies it is amazing many bussinesses can get started.
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Post by Skogen »

kyoukan wrote:No, NAFTA benefits americans immensely. There are certain groups that suffer for it though, just like up in Canada.
you mean NAMBLA?

sorry.

I've been drinking OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS tonight
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Post by Salis »

Really man I'd be over the moon if I was living in a US taxation environment, personal or businesswise it's totally trivial compared to what i've experienced in anywhere in Europe. I (and I say this from a respect point of view) think anyone in the US should be crying out with fucking joy about : a) the economy (consumerism++) b) the potential of the economy to laugh in the face of european market hohum(tm). Tax/Earnings over your end of the pond is awesome, I guess once in a while you have to question it but generally I'd be laughing my way to the bank!!

As far as illegal earnings go, economically most places that have em are laughing (London, LA, Orlando/Miami?), what makes better economics that people that will work for 1/2 what anyone else will, have no rights, benefits or prospects.
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Post by Chmee »

Krurk, they don't give much in the way of details, but this article goes into it a bit.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/11-19-03.html

an excerpt...
Recent scandals have given corporate taxes -- usually not the hottest topic around -- some buzz and given politicians fodder for some breast-beating populism.

Today's villains are U.S. companies that re-incorporate offshore, in such places as Bermuda, and businesses, such as Enron, that pursue complex tax avoidance schemes. Democratic presidential contender Howard Dean, not a typical pol, promises to "crack down" on corporate tax shelters and blasts "Enron economics" -- whatever that is.

The scandals obscure the fact that most American corporations actually pay the government huge amounts of tax. Wal-Mart, for example, forked out $3 billion in federal income taxes last year. Indeed, there is growing concern that because corporations must pay so much in taxes, American companies are at a competitive disadvantage in world markets. Consider that the combined U.S. federal and average state corporate tax rate is 40 percent. That's much higher than the 31 percent average for the 30 top industrial countries.

In recent years, most of our trading partners have cut their corporate tax rates to boost competitiveness. Smart countries, such as Ireland, have recognized that sharp corporate tax cuts will attract foreign investors. While numerous factors affect investment flows, America's uncompetitive corporate tax drives away domestic and foreign firms whose investments would create U.S. jobs and spur economic growth.
No nation was ever ruined by trade.

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Post by Salis »

Chmee wrote:"Smart countries, such as Ireland, have recognized that sharp corporate tax cuts will attract foreign investors. While numerous factors affect investment flows, America's uncompetitive corporate tax drives away domestic and foreign firms whose investments would create U.S. jobs and spur economic growth.
Most firms invest in Ireland, and Scotland due to massive taxbreaks. Operating costs tend to be pretty minimal when you do that. Does it make political sense? Yes. Economic, partially. Dont believe for one minute everyone involved in investment side US isn't pulling strings out their ass either. Stupid to make tax comparisons because most 500 co's (and any multi national) don't consider them even a fucking problem. And amazingly, there're not.
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Post by Kylere »

The single largest loss as a result of NAFTA is American manufacturing jobs going to Mexico.

The numbers on wood, 8k a house more, WRONG. Thanks.

A price increase on wood increases the cost of building a house but to make 8k difference, you would have to be building a 300k plus house, and maybe rich canadians named Kyoukan plan on 300k plus house, but most people do not.
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Post by Cartalas »

Kylere wrote:The single largest loss as a result of NAFTA is American manufacturing jobs going to Mexico.

The numbers on wood, 8k a house more, WRONG. Thanks.

A price increase on wood increases the cost of building a house but to make 8k difference, you would have to be building a 300k plus house, and maybe rich canadians named Kyoukan plan on 300k plus house, but most people do not.
Maybe in Flint they dont!! But im sure that would look akward in all those trailer parks.
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Post by Pahreyia »

Kylere wrote:The numbers on wood, 8k a house more, WRONG. Thanks.

A price increase on wood increases the cost of building a house but to make 8k difference, you would have to be building a 300k plus house, and maybe rich canadians named Kyoukan plan on 300k plus house, but most people do not.
I can't speak for Michigan, but I know that in Southern California the costs of building homes has risen substantially in the last couple of years. As I recall reading in my local newspaper, lumber has become much more expensive to transport to California, and coupled with property values, most homes in the area that I'm living in that were ~$200k are now close to the $350-$500k point. Builders are stating that materials are a huge part of the increase in price of new homes these days. Upland California is practically going bankrupt by building a new housing development with something like 78 homes. Just to make their money back on the labor/materials/properties they're having to sell the homes for 400k+. As I recall, the homes ranged from 1700-2600 square feet.

Whereas a $60k a year job would have put you into a pretty nice middle class neighborhood 5 years ago, new home prices are putting strains on $80k+ income families to own new homes these days. About the only saving grace is the low financing options and refinancing services. However, we'll see how that's affected as the economy moves over the next year or so.

Much of this is attributed to protectionist trade practices. While I normally find Forthe and Kyoukan a little too liberal for my tastes, they've got a definate point on this topic.
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Post by Skogen »

Pahreyia wrote:
Kylere wrote:The numbers on wood, 8k a house more, WRONG. Thanks.

A price increase on wood increases the cost of building a house but to make 8k difference, you would have to be building a 300k plus house, and maybe rich canadians named Kyoukan plan on 300k plus house, but most people do not.
I can't speak for Michigan, but I know that in Southern California the costs of building homes has risen substantially in the last couple of years. As I recall reading in my local newspaper, lumber has become much more expensive to transport to California, and coupled with property values, most homes in the area that I'm living in that were ~$200k are now close to the $350-$500k point. Builders are stating that materials are a huge part of the increase in price of new homes these days. Upland California is practically going bankrupt by building a new housing development with something like 78 homes. Just to make their money back on the labor/materials/properties they're having to sell the homes for 400k+. As I recall, the homes ranged from 1700-2600 square feet.

Whereas a $60k a year job would have put you into a pretty nice middle class neighborhood 5 years ago, new home prices are putting strains on $80k+ income families to own new homes these days. About the only saving grace is the low financing options and refinancing services. However, we'll see how that's affected as the economy moves over the next year or so.

Much of this is attributed to protectionist trade practices. While I normally find Forthe and Kyoukan a little too liberal for my tastes, they've got a definate point on this topic.
We bought our house in Claremont (Pahreyia, we are neighbors!) just a couple of months ago. It was built in 1987, and is in a great area. It cost a pretty good chunck of change, but having just moved here from Norcal a year ago, I wasn't too sticker-shocked. The cost of new homes here are ridiculous. This area is well on it's way to looking like the bay area in terms of housing prices.
I am looking into building a deck for our backyard, and have begun costing out the lumber. I was shocked on how much this friggin thing is going to cost me in lumber.
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Post by Pahreyia »

Howdy neighbor!

My roommate/landlord just had to throw away 10 sheets of plywood and about 300 feet of 2x4 because of water damage. He was having a patio cover built and the jackass paid the contractor up front for lumber and half of labor and 'lo and behold, the contractor never showed. My roomie was pissed because just a couple pieces of "cheap," standard lumber was like $500 in materials.
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Post by kyoukan »

Kylere wrote:The single largest loss as a result of NAFTA is American manufacturing jobs going to Mexico.

The numbers on wood, 8k a house more, WRONG. Thanks.

A price increase on wood increases the cost of building a house but to make 8k difference, you would have to be building a 300k plus house, and maybe rich canadians named Kyoukan plan on 300k plus house, but most people do not.
Do you just contradict me every time I post merely because you feel it is your duty as a stupid person or do you have the benefit of some knowledge that I don't on the subject that you're willing to share? Because you can ask any contractor and they will tell you exactly what I said.
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Post by Skogen »

Kylere wrote:The single largest loss as a result of NAFTA is American manufacturing jobs going to Mexico.

The numbers on wood, 8k a house more, WRONG. Thanks.

A price increase on wood increases the cost of building a house but to make 8k difference, you would have to be building a 300k plus house, and maybe rich canadians named Kyoukan plan on 300k plus house, but most people do not.

k, wait...you consider having a $300k house for the rich? You either live somewhere where the cost of housing in really inexpensive, and just don't seem to understand it's not the same everywhere, or you have set your goals pretty low.
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Post by kyoukan »

Look who you are talking to. The guy thinks drinking schlitz out of a glass is acting classy.
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Post by Forthe »

kyoukan wrote:Look who you are talking to. The guy thinks drinking schlitz out of a glass is acting classy.
So mean.
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Post by Kylere »

Actually I used to own a home in a very exclusive area that I paid through the nose for, and 300k is expensive in most of the US. Try doing some of the research you are accusing me of skipping. SoCal is a rotten case in point, as they have dinky one bedroom houses for 200k there, you cannot use silicon valley and innercity New York as housing cost standards.

The experts say it is 1k per house not 8k as below
Lumber Tariffs Could Boost New Home Prices
by Al Heavens


The price of softwood lumber - pine, fir, hemlock - has long been an issue with the residential construction and remodeling industries.

And for good reason. Residential construction accounts for 40 percent of softwood lumber consumed in the United States annually, according to the American Forest and Paper Association, and an additional 30 percent goes to remodeling and repair projects.

Softwood lumber accounts for about 20 percent of the cost of materials in a new house. A typical 2,000-square-foot new wood-framed house uses roughly 16,000 board feet of lumber and 6,000 feet of structural panels, such as plywood.

At $400 per 1,000 board feet, for example, the lumber package for a 2,000 square-foot house would cost nearly $10,000.

Including costs that rise in proportion to lumber costs, such as sales taxes, financing, real estate commissions, and permit fees, each increase of $50 per 1,000 board feet in wholesale lumber prices increases the cost of a new house by $1,000.

When this happens, the National Association of Home Builders has estimated, more than 378,000 individuals or families can no longer afford to purchase a new house.

There is an ongoing debate about softwood lumber prices that has focused, since 1996, on a five-year agreement between the United States and Canada that subjected lumber imported from four Canadian provinces to a tariff.

The agreement, which expired in 2001, required the Canadian government to impose export fees on softwood shipments in excess of 14.7 billion board feet a year. Though there are nuances in the agreement that exempt more lumber, in a year beginning April, the first 650,000 board feet exported after the quota was reached was subject to a tariff of $52.93 (in U.S. dollars) per 1,000 board feet.

On shipments above that level, the tariff rose to $106 per 1,000 board feet for lumber from Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba, and a maximum of $146 for lumber from British Columbia.

In a typical year, the United States imports 17 billion board feet of softwood from Canadian producers.

The NAHB maintained that from the moment the agreement went into effect in 1996, the average wholesale price of framing lumber had been about $400 per 1,000 board feet. By comparison, in 1995, the average price was only $329.

By the middle of 1999, propelled by heavy demand, the price was more than $450.

Another factor affecting prices, according to the home builders' association, is a restriction of supplies of timber from public lands in the West. Sales of timber from federal lands fell from 10.4 billion board feet in 1990 to 3.9 billion board feet in 1997, while supplies from the West declined by 23 percent from 1988 to 1998.

In those 10 years, imports from Canada grew by 32 percent. In 1998, 34 percent of lumber consumed in the United States came from Canada, compared with 31 percent over the previous 10 years.

Consumption of lumber increased steadily between 1995 and 2000, fueled by the residential building boom, though it eased a bit as the economy began slowing down the second half of 2000.

The home builders' association maintains that lumber prices in 1999, for example, were 59 percent higher than before supplies of federal timber were curtailed and Canadian lumber was subjected to tariffs.

The NAHB has been pushing for an end to tariffs. U.S. lumber producers, however, favor such protection.

On May 2, the International Trade Commission voted 4-0 to impose tariffs on Canadian softwood lumber imports beginning May 23. The ITC ruled that the provincial governments unfairly subsidize Canada's lumber industry by charging low fees to cut timber on public land. In a preliminary decision in 2001, the U.S. Commerce Department imposed an average duty of 32 percent on Canadian softwood. But the ITC, an independent body financed by Congress, said the 32 percent was too harsh a fine and ordered the U.S. government to refund the money to Canada.

The new amount is based on an 18.8 percent duty to cover subsidies, as well as a variable anti-dumping tariff of roughly 8.4 percent — depending on the company.

“The 27.2 percent tariffs on Canadian lumber imports are set to go into effect ... right at the heart of the spring home-building season,” said NAHB vice-president Bobby Rayburn. “If this entire tariff is reflected in U.S. wholesale prices, that will add more than $1,000 to the cost of building a new home. That's a very significant burden to place on home buyers.” The Canadian government is appealing the decision to the World Trade Organization and a dispute panel for the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).
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Post by Skogen »

[quote="Kylere"]Actually I used to own a home in a very exclusive area that I paid through the nose for, and 300k is expensive in most of the US. Try doing some of the research you are accusing me of skipping. SoCal is a rotten case in point, as they have dinky one bedroom houses for 200k there, you cannot use silicon valley and innercity New York as housing cost standards.

The experts say it is 1k per house not 8k as below

[quote]

Who said anything about housing costs standards? The original comment was implying $300k houses only for the rich, which isnt the case.

btw...there are 10 million people living in Los Angeles county, and around another 2 million in San Bernidino County, which is more than the population of your entire state, so I am not so sure of it being a rotten case in point. SF bay area, yes.
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Post by Chidoro »

kyoukan wrote:No, NAFTA benefits americans immensely. There are certain groups that suffer for it though, just like up in Canada.
While it may benefit specific corporations, it's, largely, a dick deal for the USA. It's the reason imports are so high while exports so low. If we didn't have agriculture and textile sources, we'd be screwed. As it stands, the tariffs are huge on our goods elsewhere in the world and the subsidies are provided for imports for the rest of the world to us.

It's a totally dick deal and is really the reason I voted for Nader last election (couldn't see voting for a hillbilly nepotism reject or a wooden plank of self-rightous droolings).
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Post by Kylere »

Skogen, you literacy challenged flying monkey, look it is 1k per house increase on average, Kyoukan overstated it by 800%, what part of that is hard to comprehend.

LA is a horrible example, because it has a real estate market that has no bearing on the other 99% of the country. The market there is driven by stupid people paying stupid prices. 100-150k will buy you a 3 bedroom, 3 and a half bath in most of the US without breaking a sweat.
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Post by Cartalas »

"100-150k will buy you a 3 bedroom, 3 and a half bath in most of the US without breaking a sweat"


Not to mention you have the ability to move it anywhere you want but it does not come with skirting.
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Post by Pahreyia »

Cartalas wrote:"100-150k will buy you a 3 bedroom, 3 and a half bath in most of the US without breaking a sweat"


Not to mention you have the ability to move it anywhere you want but it does not come with skirting.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by Skogen »

Kylere wrote:Skogen, you literacy challenged flying monkey, look it is 1k per house increase on average, Kyoukan overstated it by 800%, what part of that is hard to comprehend.

LA is a horrible example, because it has a real estate market that has no bearing on the other 99% of the country. The market there is driven by stupid people paying stupid prices. 100-150k will buy you a 3 bedroom, 3 and a half bath in most of the US without breaking a sweat.
Look at it by centers of population, and not geography dumbass. Sure this country vast, but where are the majority living? I'll let you think about it a while. Sure, I can buy a 3 bedroom, 3 and a half bath for $100k, but where?
No bearing on 99% of the country??!! You're trying to tell me that 99% of the country has housing costs like that? In fact, show me a lot more than that, since in 99% of country you can buy that house for $100-$150.
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