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Crav
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Post by Crav »

Honestly does the DoJ have nothing better to do?

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U.S. takes hard line on Greenpeace
By Kari Huus, MSNBC


When Greenpeace activists illegally scrambled aboard the cargo ship APL Jade, it was the start of a pretty typical day. Convinced the ship was hauling contraband mahogany from Brazil, the environmentalists aimed to draw attention to it by unfurling a banner with this message: "President Bush, Stop Illegal Logging." Their arrests by the Coast Guard were also part of a day's work. But the later use of an obscure 19th century law to charge the entire organization with criminal conspiracy has Greenpeace defenders claiming that they are the target of U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft's attempts to stifle political criticism of the government.

THE GREENPEACE demonstration off the coast of Florida on April 12, 2002, was one of a series of similar "direct actions" taken by the international organization near ports around the world as it attempted to draw attention to the mahogany shipment, which violated a Brazilian moratorium on mahogany lumbering in the Amazon, and violated the international treaty controlling trade in endangered species, CITES.
It was standard practice for the international organization, which for more than three decades has used this in-your-face method to fight for causes it deems just. It is a method of civil disobedience that has been used by activists on both ends of the political spectrum, from civil rights campaigners to anti-abortion groups. In Florida, as in the mahogany protests elsewhere, a handful of individuals were charged with minor crimes and released shortly thereafter.

But 15 months after the APL Jade incident, the U.S. Justice Department in Florida's Southern District dramatically upped the ante. Drawing on an 1872 law, it filed criminal charges against Greenpeace USA for boarding a ship before its arrival in port, and with conspiracy to do so -- in a case scheduled to be heard in December.

Critics and some legal experts say the pursuit of an entire organization for this type of civil disobedience by its members is a break with 200 years of American tradition, and appears to be an attempt by the Bush administration to silence a vocal critic. In the words of former Vice President Al Gore, the legal move looks to be "aimed at inhibiting Greenpeace's First Amendment activities."

Because the case is pending, the Department of Justice declined any specific comment on this case. However, said Matthew Dates, special counsel for public affairs: "We would evaluate the case like any other, based on the facts and the law."

If convicted, Greenpeace USA faces a statutory maximum penalty of five years' probation and a fine of $10,000, according to a press release from the U.S. attorney general for the Southern District of Florida.

Some observers say it is possible that Greenpeace could lose its tax-exempt status in the United States -- a death knell for a non-profit organization. The Miami attorney general's office declined to comment on that possibility.

More broadly, say rights activists, a conviction could have a chilling effect on other organizations that practice nonviolent protest.

RARE CASE
Despite taking place on a ship, the protest itself was nothing unusual. "It was a classic sit-in in the sense that it was non-violent, overt, and non-threatening," says George Washington University constitutional law professor Jonathan Turley. As is also typical of this type of protest, says Turley, "the protesters want to be arrested."

But he says the response has been highly unusual. While organizations sometimes face criminal prosecution for the actions of their members, especially in racketeering, fraud and securities cases, it is extremely rare -- if not unprecedented -- for the government to pursue criminal charges against organizations in "the free speech area," he says.

Also suspect, says Turley, is the use of an obscure statute of federal law in the case. Passed 131 years ago, Code 18, Statute 2779 was written to prevent organizations such as boarding houses from "sailor mongering" -- which involved boarding ships before they had moorage, often using alcohol or prostitutes to lure the crewmen ashore, leaving the vessel unattended. His research indicates that the law has been cited in only two cases, most recently in 1890.

Turley says these factors strongly suggest a campaign of selective prosecution as a means of silencing a vocal critic, which is prohibited by law.

GREENPEACE GIRDS FOR BATTLE
The ACLU of Florida and People for the American Way Foundation, which on Nov. 7 weighed in with a brief to the court on behalf of Greenpeace, say the case is of "profound importance" because it "imperils the core values of the Constitution."

"For two hundred years, the United States government has refrained from prosecuting advocacy groups whose members occasionally engage in peaceful civil disobedience to convey a constitutionally protected message," they wrote in their brief. "The prosecution of Greenpeace indicates a sea change in that policy."

Greenpeace, which has led an aggressive pro-environmental campaign since its founding in 1971, has been at odds with the Bush administration since its earliest days in office, decrying the president's position on the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act, staging protests against the National Missile Defense Initiative and the opening of roads on national forest land. Just a few months after Bush took office, Greenpeace activists climbed a water tower near his ranch in Crawford, Texas, and unfurled a banner that read: "Bush the Toxic Texan, Don't Mess with the Earth." They were arrested after a two-hour stand-off during which they refused to climb down, ignoring demands by the mayor, the county sheriff and the Secret Service.

"We have been critics across the board," says John Passacantando, executive director of Greenpeace.

He says the organization has never before been challenged at this level in the United States, and characterizes it as the way the Justice Department operates under Ashcroft.

"The parallel I see is with the McCarthy era -- the overreach by the government to stifle its critics," he says. "It is a fight we are willing to take on ... a fight for our right to dissent peacefully in this country in areas we think society is wrong."

Greenpeace will seek additional discovery to lay out what went into the decision to charge Greenpeace, says legal counsel Tom Wetterer. "We have found no previous examples of where the government has charged an organization for a political protest," he says.

"The prosecution, if indeed it is selective, amounts to nothing more than an act of intimidation by the government, apparently directed at silencing political speech," says the ACLU/PAWF brief.

DOJ BUILDS ITS CASE
From the point of view of the activists, the events of April 12 were mostly unsurprising, but ominous signs emerged later on. In Coast Guard custody for most of the day, a Friday, the mood was relaxed and they were led to believe they would soon be released.

"They told us to order pizza," says Scott Paul, Greenpeace's forest campaign coordinator, who was among those arrested. "Later in the day, the FBI got involved and the atmosphere changed dramatically."

He was one of 14 activists who ended up spending the weekend in a federal penitentiary before release the following Monday. Within two months, the case was resolved. Six people, including the two who boarded the ship, pleaded guilty under the "sailor mongering" law on condition that other charges would be dropped.

Later, says Greenpeace's Wetterer, it was clear that the Justice Department had launched a separate federal grand jury investigation, which led to the criminal indictment in July of this year.

Public affairs officer Dates declined to comment on what prompted the government to further pursue the case, or its "deliberative process."

Speculating about that process, Turley of George Washington University says it seems "truly remote" that the case was pursued independently by the DOJ in Miami. "DOJ guidelines give a great deal of decentralized powers to state offices, except when they use statutes in unusual ways," he says. Since this is such an unusual prosecution, "this had to be approved at the central level," he says.

Meanwhile, Greenpeace says it confirmed that the original target of the protest, the APL Jade, went on to Charleston, S.C., where it discharged its cargo of mahogany for shipment to a forest product company.

In November 2002, the United Nations Environmental Program upgraded protection of mahogany under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES), a move that places even stricter controls on trade in the wood. The United States is a signatory to the treaty.



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Post by noel »

Illegal logging does not justify piracy.
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Post by VariaVespasa »

Piracy is taking over the ship or stealing things from it by force. They just got on without permission and hung a banner. Get a grip.

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Post by Aslanna »

Greenpeace goes over the line at times. They deserve whatever happens. But I'm sure they can accept those consequences.
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Post by Crav »

Greenpeace goes over the line at times. They deserve whatever happens. But I'm sure they can accept those consequences.
So basically because Greenpeace tends to over due it some times the Justice department should use a law that has only been used in two other cases in history to try to disband it?

I wish the DoJ was half as determined and creative to punish the people responsible for Enron and Worldcom.
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Post by Marbus »

Sounds like one overjealous action followed by another...

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Post by noel »

Marbus wrote:Sounds like one overjealous action followed by another...

Marb
Perfectly stated.

Varia, hanging a banner from someones ship without their authority is as good as taking over. Greenpeace believes that the ends justify the means. This isn't the first time they've pulled a stunt like this. They're a powerful lobby, but what they fail to realize is that they shoot themselves in the foot with actions like this.
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Post by VariaVespasa »

Hanging a banner is NOT anywhere near taking over the ship. It interferes with its operation not one whit, any more than my hanging a banner from your balcony is taking over your apartment. Its annoying and uninvited, sure, and may well be an inconvenience, but its in no way taking over. /bonk

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Post by Lohrno »

If I remember correctly...Greenpeace did take over some other boats though...

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Post by Zaelath »

Nah, it's about time the government stopped allowing people to primarily be obstructionary fuckheads and wrapping themselves in the constitution like a binky every time someone calls them on it.

First amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

No one in their right mind would assume "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances" would mean "assemble on my front lawn/ship/property".
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Post by vn_Tanc »

You should just sink them commie enviroterrorists like the French did.
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Post by Kelshara »

Varia, hanging a banner from someones ship without their authority is as good as taking over.
You got to be kidding me, that is probably the most idiotic statement I have ever seen here.. including Kyou's, Metanis' and all of the rest of them. I am sure the sailors who have to deal with real piracy daily would love to hear your arguments for that one. You know, the guys who get killed, get put in life rafts without any food or water and who loose their livelyhood etc?
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Post by Phugg_Innay »

I agree with DoJ on this one. Greenpeace is bunch of fucking zealots , using what power they have for an off the wall purpose. They (Grenpeace) will take over ships/logging farms/ whatever they can to get " the point across" . The problem is that if I were to do something like that I would probably be beaten ruthlessly by the crew, but since they are a "Peacefull orgination" they get to do what they want. BULLSHIT I say prosecute them fuckers with everything you can , pull out the most obscure law humanly possible. Thats just my 2cp worth. These fucking zealots need to be put in thier place.
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Post by Aslanna »

Crav wrote:So basically because Greenpeace tends to over due it some times the Justice department should use a law that has only been used in two other cases in history to try to disband it?
Pretty much, yes.

Protest all they want. Just don't do it on my private property without expecting consequences.
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Post by Wulfran »

I'm a believer in cause and effect chains. I believe Greenpeace and others like them actively advocating the breaking laws to make their point, leads to the violent protests and riots that have been experienced when people have protested G8 summits, etc. I think the authorities are justified in using all legal means at their disposal to eliminate this type of behaviour.

I don't always disagree with their points but I do disagree with a lot of their methods (and I do say that in some cases they need to do more research into their targets/attacks instead of spewing what in some cases is hysterical rhetoric). Illegally boarding a vessel is asking for trouble. Why not use their little information network, find out that ship's destination and picket/demonstrate there? Get some TV camera's in the faces of the purchasers of this illegal shipment.

Greenpeace represents what I as a conservationist deplore: hysteria and illegal acts to make a point. Look at the opinions being expressed on this board. While this is not always the most tolerant or balanced place for opinions, I think it does provide some basis for evaluation of those methods. People don't give a shit about the environmental issue as much as they do about the action Greenpeace took. Thats sensationalism promoting the organization, not the issue.
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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

NO COMPROMISE! :twisted:
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Post by noel »

Look, Kel. If someone is on my ship without my permission, (read: BOARDING MY SHIP WHILE I AM AT SEA), I'm shooting first and asking questions later. Fuck greenpeace's stupid antics.
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Post by Kelshara »

Good to see you did not attempt to defend your silly attempt of calling it piracy.

And Greenpeace isn't my idea of how to do environmental work, but they do have some good points.
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Post by kyoukan »

Kelshara wrote:
Varia, hanging a banner from someones ship without their authority is as good as taking over.
You got to be kidding me, that is probably the most idiotic statement I have ever seen here.. including Kyou's, Metanis' and all of the rest of them. I am sure the sailors who have to deal with real piracy daily would love to hear your arguments for that one. You know, the guys who get killed, get put in life rafts without any food or water and who loose their livelyhood etc?
hay dood i thought u and me were frends :(

you guys are right. we should totally let the bush administration police the illegal logging imports flooding into the US (lol).
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Post by Crav »

Honestly I don't agree with most of the things Greenpeace does, however, what I find somewhat worry some and that the main point of the article is that the government has never before attempted to prosecute an organization for using non-violent civil disobedience.

While I know Greenpeace does not have a completely clean record as far as using violent means to express their point, the act that they are being prosecuted for was non-violent. So basically the government is using this obscure law in some sort of crusade to silence a voice that has been very outspoken against the administration.

It's also troubling to see intelligent people on this board, who have expressed concern for the erosion of our civil liberties fall in line so quickly because they do not agree with the methods employed by the organization in other situations.
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Post by noel »

The message greenpeace tries to convey is excellent and more often than not, well researched etc. The idiotic actions taken by their members every few years disgust me.
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Post by Aslanna »

Kyoukan, repost the one you deleted. I thought you had finally managed to go over the deep end!
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Post by kyoukan »

what? I didn't delete anything.
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Post by Aslanna »

kyoukan wrote:what? I didn't delete anything.
Lol my mistake, you're right. I was thinking of something else. I need sleep.
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Post by Phugg_Innay »

Crav I have to reply to your post. I'll put what I'm thinking fairly easy I hope. In this case Greenpeace was WAY off base. Boarding a ship ehrn NOT invited by any means is Wrong. Now if I were in ~insert your own enviromental protection firm~ and wanted to protest the use oil and how bad the enviroment was , I sure as hell wouldnt go CARJACK you when you are in an SUV, then paint it whatever colors and letters etc. I would get arrested and so should those people. I'm not attacking you , just the statement. Those people were doing the equivilant of carjacking at sea. They should feel some repercussions of thier actions.
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Post by Crav »

Phugg, the analogy is a bit flawed, but I won't really argue that point. The reason this situation has really got me upset isn't because they got arrested. I agree that if you break the law there should be consequences, however, to arrest the people and then use an obscure law to try to bring down the whole organization is a bit much.

In this situation the people who were involved in the civil disobedience were arrested and went to trial. Now the DoJ is using those arrests to try to bring down a voice that has been outspoken against the administrations environmental policies. Personally I find that very frightening, what would this country be like today if people had not used non-violent civil disobedience to change laws and bring attention to situations that were wrong.

The funny thing in this whole situation is that their act was for nothing, the company that owned the ship carrying the illegal mahogany was not charged with anything.
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Post by VariaVespasa »

Phugg- Capitalising the word carjack doesnt make it any more true. Carjacking is getting into someone elses car and then using force to make the driver do things against their wishes. Drive to the deserted woods, your bank machine, the local chopshop, whatever. What greenpeace did was just get in the car uninvited, refuse to leave when asked, and then leaned out the window and hung a banner off the wing mirror. Rude and obnoxious yes, and worthy of a whap from the legal system (which they got and took without complaint), but in no way comparable to carjacking or piracy, and in no way worthy of a death squad response.

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Post by Phugg_Innay »

Varia I agree with you on that. I was a bit overblown , but so is the case. I agree with a lot of the causes of Greenpeace , just HATE the actions that some members take. For 5 years I worked offshore of SoCal and got to see first hand some of the "zealotness" that these people were about. At the same time I also whata great orginization it CAN be (not is) I have experianced the wrath of some of the extremists , and on the other side , the calm cool collected sit in type deal. My opinion on what they should have done was stated bye someone else , do a sit in at the port , DONT go board a ship/refuse to leave.
I can see both sides of this argument very clearly , but at the same time I personally feel that some of the actions of extreme groups (mainly individuals) should have extreme reactions. Again its just my opinion.
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Post by Ogbar »

The Russians once used an interesting tactic against Greanpeace: link
The submarine started a torpedo attack maneuver, and the people onboard the Greenpeace ship recognized it. The ship started rushing about. The captain-s mate entered the hydroacoustics cabin, holding the razor like a grenade. The Greenpeace sailors 'heard' the noise of a very weird torpedo that was coming from the Soviet submarine.

Our sound technician 'broadcasted' the noise of Boris Durtsev-s electric razor. He did really well: the Greenpeace ship turned to the west and set off at full speed. They probably thought that it would not be good to joke with Russians. They got cold feet and escaped to Norway. Greenpeace never showed up again that year.
As always, my heart is torn with Greenpeace. They often have valid points to make, but I just can't support an organization that resorts to such tactics.
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Post by kyoukan »

Greenpeace generally only resorts to civil disobedience after lobbying fails. You guys make it sound like the instant they get wind of something, they are scaling walls and sinking ships.

Illegal mahogany logging and exporting has been going on in brazil for decades. It's an environmental disaster for the country. Every time there is a republican in the white house, the doors are opened to get this shit imported into the country because the logging and especially milling lobby in DC has such a massive stranglehold on the GOP. Hundreds of thousands of raw logs are brought into the US from Brazil where they are treated and cut for a massive profit (raw logs aren't worth a fraction of what cut and ready wood sells for). This results in almost no money for the country the wood originated from except from the criminals that harvest it illegally and lots of money for a bunch of millionaire and billionaire logging industry fat cats in the US. Not to mention the ecological damage unregulated forestry and the fact that mahogany is quickly becoming depleted worldwide.

The Bush administration just lets this happen.
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Post by Dregor Thule »

But they have some really keen bedroom sets, so it's ok.
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Post by Aabidano »

Ogbar wrote:They often have valid points to make, but I just can't support an organization that resorts to such tactics.
I agree.

*Edited - Might as well go explain something to my cat.

Greenpeace, PETA, and the other enviromental terrorist groups do themselves much more harm than good every time they pull a stunt like this.

When I worked near a place with large "Deadly force authorized" signs, I never saw a single protester. They'd go down the street to the shipyard to make idiots of themselves a couple times a year rather than piss off the marine security gaurds.
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Post by Kluden »

I don't have much of a problem with what Greenpeace does, because, like what was stated already, the people commiting the acts know the consequences and accept them before debarking on their "missions".

Beyond that, what oil company was it that had a drilling station hitting golf balls at the greenpeacers? That shit was funnay! :)
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Greenpeace, PETA, and the other enviromental terrorist groups do themselves much more harm than good every time they pull a stunt like this.
If their actions hadn't provoked the govt. response that it has, we would not be discussing it and would remain ignorant of the situation.
So, in raising said awareness, I'd say they've done what they set out to do.
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Post by Fallanthas »

Non-violent my ass.


Do a little research. When Greenpeace puts away the fucking grappling irons and decides to counter illegal logging instead of acting like jackasses to get air time, I will support them.


Until then, they are just another bunch of long-haired assholes bottling up Molotovs in hopes of catching the next H2 right in front of a camera.
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Post by Pahreyia »

Kelshara wrote:
Varia, hanging a banner from someones ship without their authority is as good as taking over.
You got to be kidding me, that is probably the most idiotic statement I have ever seen here.. including Kyou's, Metanis' and all of the rest of them. I am sure the sailors who have to deal with real piracy daily would love to hear your arguments for that one. You know, the guys who get killed, get put in life rafts without any food or water and who loose their livelyhood etc?
If so, please explain the difference between what greenpeace does and someone who forcably breaks into your home to watch some TV and relax on the couch a little while you're at work. How exactly would you react when you got home?

Or, since someone's going to say "teh home r teh housal residence but teh b0at r 4 teh w0rk!11!" or some equally meaningless drivel, how about if you're driving to work and some jackass jumps on the hood of your car and spraypaints their gang's colors/tags on your windshield?

It's over the line, and while they mean well and as Aranuil said, are a powerful lobby, extremists undermine the credibility of the whole organization.
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Post by Kelshara »

I argued against comparing it to piracy. Granted, the sentence I quoted was a bad choice, but if you read what I said it was comparing it to piracy I was against.
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Post by Pahreyia »

I realize that, and as such, didn't include the word piracy in my post. Please do reread and answer my question tho. If they're not pirates, then how are they different from people who stage home invasions?
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Post by Kelshara »

They are and they are not.

Are different: Their motivation is completely different. They are trying to fight for what is (most of the time) very valid causes, yet there are NO ways to fight it legally. Think anybody would give a shit about some people standing on the dock waving a banner? No. The only way to fight some of the crap these large corperations are doing is to get lots of attention on it. People will pay way more attention to something which has a huge-ass spotlight on it than if you are using a miniature maglight. Cheesy comparison, but you get my point..

Also, if I am not mistaken the sale of these typs of wood is illegal, isn't it? I know it is back home at least.. so I guess it could be said they broke into a trailer that was stolen already?

Are not different: They DO something illegal, and should pay for it. However, I disagree with going after the whoel organization. That would be like if you broke into my home, I would press charges against you, your family, your dog and your chess club.
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Post by noel »

Kel is right. It's technically not piracy, but me arguing that it is would be largely semantic, and not really worthwhile.

Fortunately, boarding a ship without the captain/owner's permission is still illegal.
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Post by kyoukan »

so is raping rain forests of valuable wood commodities and selling it black market to the lumber industry, but I don't see you complaining about that?
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Post by noel »

Oh... well... Since you brought it up.

I vote we send down the special forces, shoot all of the people harvesting illegal wood, animals, what have you, and then blow up their ships. I think our military submarines should also shoot torpedos at any ships that are illegally whaling, or not harvesting dolphin-safe tuna. Mostly because I really like dolphins. All of this should be done with a government mandate, and with extreme prejudice.

I'm being completely serious too. Since you asked.

The bottom line is two wrongs don't make a right, and I resent the image Greenpeace gives GOOD environmentalists when they take extremist actions like this. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand.
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Post by Crav »

Or we could just try to enforce the international treaties on illegal mahogany, fine the shipping and logging companies equal to the value of the wood they were transporting and confiscate the mahogany. Then sell the mahogany and use the money from the fines and the sales towards environmental initiatives.

Not that I don't like a good massacre by the military, although that hasn't appeared to be working to well recently :wink:.
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Post by kyoukan »

Yeah unfunny sarcasm is a great response to my post.
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Post by noel »

I was being serious. Motherfuckers who knowingly destroy the environment deserve to die.
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Post by masteen »

Kluden wrote:Beyond that, what oil company was it that had a drilling station hitting golf balls at the greenpeacers? That shit was funnay! :)
Not as funny as it was when that guy caught Ben Afflek boning his daughter. :razz:
Crav wrote:Or we could just try to enforce the international treaties on illegal mahogany, fine the shipping and logging companies equal to the value of the wood they were transporting and confiscate the mahogany. Then sell the mahogany and use the money from the fines and the sales towards environmental initiatives.
That doesn't put bling-bling on Dubya's plate!
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