Zell Miller's take on Democrats and the South

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Zell Miller's take on Democrats and the South

Post by Brotha »

For those of you who don't know of him, Zell Miller is a democratic senator from Georgia who has endorsed President Bush and sided with republicans on tax cuts and the war in Iraq.

This is one of three articles from the Wash. times in which he has excerpts from his book. Dean's latest remark on wanting the votes of southerners with confederate flags on their pick up trucks just reiterates some of what Miller says. I'm not sure if Dean realizes this but if every single person in the south with a confederate flag on their pick up truck decided to vote for him he'd still get slaughtered. I made it a point the last couple of days to look for a confederate flag on a truck and I didn't see a single one. I've seen a few of them before but they are far more rare than Dean and many people not from the south realize. I know that Dean meant this is in a broader sense (ie gun toting, nascar type fans), but it revealed a typical ignorant stereotype that many people from the north have of people from the south.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031 ... -5341r.htm
Once upon a time, the most successful Democratic leader of them all, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, looked south and said, "I see one-third of a nation ill-housed, ill-clad, ill-nourished."

Today our national Democratic leaders look south and say, "I see one-third of a nation and it can go to hell."

Too harsh? I don't think so. Consider these facts.

In 1960, the state of Georgia gave Democratic presidential nominee John F. Kennedy a higher percentage of its vote than did JFK's home state of Massachusetts. "You can look it up," as Casey Stengel used to say. Only the percentage in Rhode Island was greater.

And Georgians were not disappointed in Kennedy's performance as president. He stared down the Russians over Cuba and cut taxes in a significant way that stimulated the economy. Had he not been assassinated, he could have carried Georgia a second time.

In the last nine presidential elections, except for 1976 when regional pride was a huge factor and native son Jimmy Carter lost only Virginia among the 11 states of the old Confederacy, the scoreboard read like this:

Hubert Humphrey carried Texas in 1968 because of Lyndon Johnson, but no other state of the 11. Carter carried only Georgia in 1980; the others left the incumbent. In 1992, another native son of the South, Bill Clinton, carried Georgia, Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee. In 1996, Clinton lost Georgia but picked up Florida and kept Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee.

So, four times — 1972, 1984, 1988 and 2000 — the Democratic candidate couldn't carry a single Southern state. Not one. Zero. Zilch. And two times, 1968 and 1980, only one Southern state favored the Democrat.

Either the Democratic Party is not a national party or the candidates were not national candidates. Take your pick.

But there is more to this sorry tale. In the mid-term elections of 2002, not a single national Democratic leader could come to the South to campaign without doing more harm than good.

Democratic National Chairman Terry McAuliffe couldn't come. He was too liberal. Bill Clinton couldn't come. He was too liberal. The party's titular head, Al Gore of Tennessee, who two years earlier had put up a big fat zero in the region, couldn't come. Too liberal. Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle couldn't come, nor House Minority Leader Dick Gephardt. Too liberal.

Little has changed, except that Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California has taken the place of Gephardt, which makes it even worse when it comes to romancing the South.

If this is a national party, sushi is our national dish. If this is a national party, surfing has become our national pastime. The people leading our party and those asking to lead our country are like a bunch of naive fraternity boys who don't know what they don't know.

A foreign land

National Democratic leaders know nothing about the modern South. They still see it as a land of magnolias and mint juleps, with the pointy-headed KKK lurking in the background, waiting to burn a cross or lynch blacks and Jews.

They are like Shreve McCannon, the Canadian in William Faulkner's "Absalom, Absalom!" who asks the Southerner Quentin Compson: "Tell me about the South. What's it like there? What do they do there? Why do they live there? Why do they live at all?"

The modern South and rural America are as foreign to our Democratic leaders as some place in Asia or Africa. In fact, more so. I'm sure each could explain the culture and economy of Pakistan, Taiwan or Kenya better than that of the American South.

Average Americans, especially those who follow the job market, know a lot more. They know the South has become a land of great promise with an unlimited future. It isn't rusting and rotting away like a lot of places up North. Recent census statistics on the 100 fastest-growing counties show two-thirds are in the South. Many arrivals are immigrants from the "blue" states.

If you were to separate 15 Southeastern states from the rest of the Union (I'm not advocating that; 11 tried once), their joint economy alone would rank as the third-largest in the world, behind only the United States as a whole and Japan. The population would be far greater than New England. Georgia alone has the 17th-largest economy in the world, larger than Singapore, Hong Kong or Saudi Arabia.

Fiber-optic cable was developed in the South. Atlanta has three times more fiber-optic lines than New York City and is at the most significant fiber-optic intersection in North America. This is the region where the modem was developed and the first mobile satellite uplink was produced. Nearly a third of the Fortune 500 companies have headquarters in the region.

Georgia was the first state to deliver insurance-reimbursable medical care by telecommunication. The New York Times even called it "sophisticated." I was so shocked by the Times calling anything down South sophisticated, I cut out the article and saved it.

We're further along in racial politics than the national Democrats ever could imagine or choose to believe.

Minority Southerners complete high school at the same rate as whites. The percentage of minority Southerners with college degrees tripled in the past 25 years. When Newsweek recently named "the cream of the crop" of high schools, seven of the top 10 were in the South, as were 22 of the top 50.

In 1990, a total of 565 African-Americans held elective office in the 11 states of the old Confederacy. You know what the number was in 2000? Almost 10 times that: 5,579.

In Georgia, which is 70 percent white, seven blacks have been elected statewide. Three have been elected twice. While Sen. Max Cleland and Gov. Roy Barnes, both Democrats, were losing in 2002 with about 47 percent of the vote, state Attorney General Thurbert Baker and Commissioner of Labor Michael Thurmond were getting about 57 percent. They carried predominately white counties overwhelmingly, as they had four years before.

Reprobate uncle

I could continue citing facts like these for pages. As Dizzy Dean once said, "If you've done it, it ain't bragging." The South that Democratic Party leaders have stuck in their minds is gone with the wind.

Democrats in Washington also believe in purity. Like that old Ivory Soap commercial, 99.44 percent pure is all that will do. You cannot agree on just seven of their 10 issues, or even nine. All 10 must be embraced and ostentatiously hugged to your bosom with slobbering kisses.

Remember how Democrats wouldn't even let Pennsylvania Gov. Bob Casey speak at their national convention because he was pro-life? That was keeping the convention "pure."

Democratic leaders are as nervous as a long-tailed cat around a rocking chair when they travel south or get out in rural America. They have no idea what to say or how to act. I once saw one try to eat a boiled shrimp without peeling it. Another one loudly gagged on the salty taste of country ham.

Democrats have never seen a snail darter they didn't want to protect, but sometimes I think the one endangered species they don't want to save is the Southern conservative Democrat.

We're like the alcoholic uncle that families try to hide in a room up in the attic: After the primaries are over and the general election nears, national Democrats trot out the South and show us off — at arm's length — as if to say, "Look how tolerant we are; see how caring? Why, we even allow people 'like this' in our party of the big tent. We still love that strange old reprobate uncle."

As soon as the election is over, the old boy is banished to the attic and ignored for another two years.

Al Gore became only the third Democrat since the Civil War to lose every state in the old Confederacy, plus two border states. George McGovern and Walter Mondale were the others. But they had an excuse: They were crushed in national landslides.

Gore's loss was different. Had he won any state in the old Confederacy or one more border state, he would be president today. Gore lost his home state of Tennessee, Clinton's home state of Arkansas and the Democratic bastion of West Virginia. Even Michael Dukakis — hardly a son of the South — didn't manage to lose there.

The campaign in the South was a mess, and it didn't have to happen. The region had more Democratic governors than Republican governors, and the Democrats held a majority of state legislative chambers. Largely because of the debacle, three Democratic governors also bit the dust in 2002.

In 2004, if we have the same popular-vote split between the Democratic and Republican candidates for president, and if these candidates win the same states, the Electoral College margin for the Republican will be bigger. How much bigger? The Republican would have a majority not by four electors, as George W. Bush did in 2000, but by 18.

A matter of trust

If Southern voters think you don't understand them — or much worse, if they think you look down on them — they will never vote for you. Folks in the South have a simple way of saying this: "He's not one of us." When a politician hears those words, he's already dead.

For Southern voters, the issues you choose to talk about are as important as the positions you take on those issues. Voters may say they're for gun control, and they may well be for gun control, but they simply don't trust anybody who spends too much time talking about it. Clinton understood that. Gore did not.

There was a time when the leaders of my party understood both the policy and political value of cutting taxes. The Kennedy-Johnson tax bill in 1964 cut all brackets. It was passed by an overwhelmingly Democratic Congress as part of an aggressive agenda that included the creation of Medicare.

And how did opponents attack the Kennedy-Johnson proposal? As fiscally irresponsible, because it didn't pay off the debt and was nothing more than a quick fix.

Who was attacking these tax cuts? Why, lo and behold, it was Republicans. It was a political fiasco. Republicans would not regain control of the House or the Senate for a generation, and not until they had reversed their party's position on cutting taxes.

I know from personal experience that you can be a Democrat and have a solid Democratic agenda while cutting taxes and holding the line on spending. When I was governor of Georgia, we cut taxes by almost a billion dollars, reduced spending and cut personnel by 5,000 positions.

That was why I was able to raise the salaries of university professors and public school teachers to the highest in the South and get a lottery passed by the voters in my Bible Belt state. We provided pre-kindergarten education for every 4-year-old; technical training for every high school graduate; and the HOPE Scholarship, which gives a tuition-free college education to every student who maintains a B average.

We Democrats need to remember that talking about an aggressive agenda for America is quite different from getting it done. For us to get it done, the people we serve have to trust us.

Britain's Conservative Party, with towering figures like Margaret Thatcher, dominated that country's politics for 18 years until the Labor Party led by Tony Blair was able to reclaim power. It happened because Blair took his party kicking and screaming toward the middle. The extreme left wing was obliterated and the influence of the trade unions was greatly diminished.

If Clinton had followed through and governed as he campaigned, it would have happened here for the Democrats.

A waiting grave

For many years in the South, the magic formula for the Democratic nominee to win against a Republican has been to get 40 percent of the white vote and 90 percent of the black vote. Increasingly, it has been easier to get the latter.

But the margin of black votes for the Democrats is going to change soon. It has to change only a fraction to make a huge difference. Ralph Reed, the brilliant strategist and former Republican chairman of Georgia, understands this. So do Bush strategist Karl Rove and many other Republicans.

It will be similar to what happened in a couple of governor's races in Virginia in the 1990s. Virginia Republicans figured out that they were not going to get many more white votes. They started quietly going after black support.

George Allen and then James Gilmore each received nearly 20 percent of the black vote, just by reaching out and working for it. Going after this constituency directly cost the Democrats core votes. And, by moderating the look of the Republican Party, it indirectly cost the Democrats swing votes.

Allen and Gilmore crushed Democratic opponents in 1993 and 1997. To his credit, Democrat Mark Warner made sure that didn't happen to him in 2001.

Only time will tell the effect of seeing President Bush surround himself with black Americans like Secretary of State Colin Powell, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson.

I own a fiddle that supposedly belonged to Zeb Vance, the great North Carolina mountaineer elected governor in 1862. Vance opposed much of what Confederate President Jefferson Davis was doing in Richmond. He was too young to be involved in the Whig Party at the height of its popularity, but he had been "born a Whig."

And many thought this moderate, independent-minded, vigorous young leader might be the one to keep the party alive in the South. When Vance was approached to do so in 1865, he was typically direct: "The party is dead and buried and the tombstone placed over it and I don't care to spend the rest of my days mourning at its grave."

Like the Whig Party of the late 1850s, the Democratic Party has become dangerously fragmented. And, considering the present leadership, it can only get worse.

The special-interest groups have come between the Democratic Party and the people. The party is no longer a link to most Americans. Each advocacy group has become more important than the sum of the whole.

It is a rational party no more. It is a national party no more. So, bang the drum slowly and play the fife lowly, for the sun is setting over a waiting grave.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

I only skimmed it but is it basically saying that the only way the democrats can get back into power is by becoming a clone of their opponents? In the UK the Labour Party of Tony Blair came back into power by selling out their old views, kissing up to industry and basically becoming Conservative-Lite. Now more people are turning to the Liberal Party (our third big political party) as they are the only ones with an agenda clearly different to Labour/Conservative.
Who will people in the US turn to if the same thing is happening?
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Post by Xzion »

nothing worse then a conservative democrat
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Post by Xzion »

vn_Tanc wrote:I only skimmed it but is it basically saying that the only way the democrats can get back into power is by becoming a clone of their opponents? In the UK the Labour Party of Tony Blair came back into power by selling out their old views, kissing up to industry and basically becoming Conservative-Lite. Now more people are turning to the Liberal Party (our third big political party) as they are the only ones with an agenda clearly different to Labour/Conservative.
Who will people in the US turn to if the same thing is happening?
hopefully the libertarian party, but i think it will take some time, even though a lot of newer registered voters are becomming libertarian and its slowly growing
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Post by Voronwë »

Democrats started losing the South with the civil rights act.

Republicans have been running on things like the Confederate Flag (won the GA governorship) etc and making big gains.

I agree with Dean to 100%. He just did not communicate his point properly. The only way to win in the South is to somehow appeal to the lower income whites. The Republican party has managed to do it with stuff like the flag and conservative values, but in truth the Democratic party represents more of their interests than the Republican party does. So i think Dean is smart to try to tap into this group, but he has gotten off to a strange start with it. It may prove to be a great tactic though.

As for Zell Miller, in my opinion he's just trying to get on the Republican gravy train at the moment, and he is also trying to position himself as not somebody who is internally consistent with the Democratic party. He saw what the GOP did to Max Cleland in the last elections in Georgia (Cleland lost 3 limbs in Vietnam, naturally his Rep. opponent did not serve in Vietnam, but still ran attack adds comparing Cleland to Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Not kidding).

Anyways, Miller is basically scared of the GOP in my opinion and positioning himself as somebody who is willing to "play ball" with the Republicans so that in the next election cycle where his seat is up, he will be less likely to be threatened. For example, the GOP will not want to put as much of its national money behind a candidate to fight Miller in Georgia, because they do not perceive him as a threat in Washington, therby increasing his chances of SAVING HIS ASS.

:)

the South is trending Republican big time, and i think Zell is just trying to do some PR to not be associated with people like Daschle, etc.
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Post by Deward »

The problem is that the majority of lower income white people, hell any color, don't vote. You can cater to them all you want and they may agree with everything you say but that won't necesarily get them out on election day. People in general have become disenfranchised with the over exposure of politics in teh media and don't vote anymore. Until a REALLY dynamic leader comes forward that is clearly not beholden to money then this won't change. Most people are happy with the way things are or are too busy to vote.

I am Libertarian too and I can only hope the party keeps growing. There are a lot of people out there who are libertarians but it is even harder to get them to vote because the major parties have dominated for so long that they think their vote doesn't really count.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

Dean's message to some Southerners:

Quit basing your votes on "race, guns, God and gays."

Translate:

Southern democrats should think like snooty, federal-centric, cultural elitists.

Rather than recognising southern democrats strong concerns, he spurns them by saying they should think like a disconnected elitist.

This also shows that Dean is so ignorant of the South that he slaps a huge misfitting stereotype on them.

Is this the best the democrats can offer? If so, Bush is going to clobber him.
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Post by Aabidano »

Adex_Xeda wrote:Is this the best the democrats can offer? If so, Bush is going to clobber him.
I've voted a nearly straight republican ticket in every election since 1982. I don't want to re-elect Bush. Actually, I don't want to re-elect Bush's cronies other than Colin Powell.

Looking at the alternatives it looks as if I'll be voting for him again.
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Post by Brotha »

Yeah Vor I agree that democrats have to find a way to somehow appeal to lower income whites in the south if they ever want to win the south back, which is what Dean was talking about. I watched the rock the vote debate, it's sad that so many democrats pounced on him, knowing that he didn't mean it in a racist way, just because of political correctness. When Anderson Cooper asked Al Sharpton to respond I was like "oh shit." If you missed it, check it out here. But talking about us in the condescending way Adex pointed is going to have the opposite effect.

Also, Zell Miller is retiring in 2004, so there's no political motive that I can see. From what I've read, he's just fed up with how far to the left the democratic party is going- and I can't blame him.
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Post by Fallanthas »

What's funny is that the south was the bastion of the Democratic party for a long, long time.

The evolution and leftward drift of the party has alienated the population down there. Perhaps the party needs to re-evaluate itself rather than wasting time throwing stereotypes around.
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Post by Voronwë »

well it helps that the Republicans are not affraid to use racism to appeal to white voters in the south, whereas the Democrats stopped doing that in the 1970s.

in a recent SC election, the GOP passed out flyers in a largely poor black area to remind people to "have all unpaid parking tickets, property taxes, (a few more things like this) paid by the time you come to the polls on Wednesday" (paraphrased, from a book i have at home).

elections are always on a Tuesday.

the democratic party has a lot of problems. the fact that they have disproportionate influence by some special interest groups, which ultimately hurts the American people is actually something they have in COMMON with the Republican party though. But i know admitting that makes one feel a bit less sanctimonius.
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Post by Brotha »

Voronwe wrote:well it helps that the Republicans are not affraid to use racism to appeal to white voters in the south, whereas the Democrats stopped doing that in the 1970s.
How exactly are repubicans using racism? You're too intelligent to be implying that opposing affirmative action is racist, so I really dunno what it could be. I'd say the democrats, with the likes of Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton, play the race card far more often than republicans. If that story from SC is true (which I assume it is), it is definently the exception not the rule.

I agree completely that special interests have too big of an influence on both parties.

Edit: In the second exceprt from his book, found here, he talks about special interests.
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Post by Vetiria »

Hey! How about reading his very next sentence!
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Post by Marbus »

Brotha, you didn't READ Vor's post but fell into the same trap they were trying to catch the "lower income blacks" in. The flyer stated that they had to have everything paid before coming to the polls on WEDNESDAY when the actual election was on TUESDAY... if this still dosen't make sense... the point was that they would miss getting a chance to vote :)

Glad I could clarify that :)

Not sure who said it above but it IS the special interest groups killing the democrats. We need MODERATE democrats, not ULTRA Conservatives like many Rep. and not the freaks that feel off the left side. We just need someone with some common sense IMHO.

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Post by Brotha »

Yeah I skimmed through that part of it, but I don't see how it answers my question. Without a doubt that was racist, but I don't think Vor is basing his entire opinion on the republican strategy for the south on an isolated incident in SC.
Marbus wrote:Not sure who said it above but it IS the special interest groups killing the democrats. We need MODERATE democrats, not ULTRA Conservatives like many Rep. and not the freaks that feel off the left side. We just need someone with some common sense IMHO.
As usual, well spoken Marb!
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Post by Voronwë »

i'm basing it on the fact that i live in Georgia.

In 2002 the Republican who ran for governor of Georgia campaigned on the Confederate battle flag issue. He won.

Now of course he had no intention of putting the "stars and bars" back on the state flag, but he didnt tell taht to the "Flaggers" (they call themselves this). UPon election, Gov. Purdue presented a referendum for vote on the flag that didnt include the "Stars and Bars" and the Flaggers where pissed.

regardless, the perception that the racist symbol would be restored to the state capital just down the street from where i sit, was very much an important campaign issue here only a year ago.

Haley Barbour former, GOP national chairman, won the governorship of Mississippi the other day. He also ran advocating the use of the old Miss flag which features the Confederate Battle emblem. He was recently featured (linked Fox so we wouldnt have to address the liberal media nonsense) on the racist organization, the Council of Conservative Citizens, web page shown in a press photo with the groups leadership. An editiorial on that page today has a headline reading "In defense of racism". that picture is no longer on the website now that it has gotten national attention, presumably at the request of Barbour. Anway he was at the cookout with these guys politicking on the issue of supporting vouchers from "Private Acadamies". Basically people dont wnat their white kids in schools with black kids, and they dont want to pay private school tuition to circumvent integration.

i dont think all Republicans are racists, but the GOP will use pro-white propaganda for political gain. the GOP does this stuff for real. Bush campaigned for Barbour, the national republican governors gave $2 million to Barbour, and he got big mony from the GOP coffers as well.
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Post by Aabidano »

Marbus wrote:Not sure who said it above but it IS the special interest groups killing the democrats.
They play to TV opinions, and what appears to be popular in LA, the SF Bay area, NYC and to a lesser extent California and New England in general any given week.

Unfortunately for them, most Americans don't live in those areas. More importantly, most of the country holds values significantly different than that which is prevelant among active voters in the NE and West coast areas.

As a whole we have a conservative populace, the left wing shenanigans the democratic party has come to stand for on a national level don't fly very well.

Thank God for the electoral college.
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Post by Brotha »

Not everyone who flies the confederate flag is a racist. Some people at the end of my street when I was younger always had a confederate flag next an American flag flying in their front yard and bumperstickers of it on their cars and trucks. I assumed they were a family of racists and pretty much despised their son all through high school until I finally talked to him about it and he told me it's about southern pride and our heritage- not racism. I hung out with him some after that and noticed that he had several black friends.

In my opinion, to a lot of people, being asked to remove a symbol of our heritage was the last straw. Many of us are tired of having political correctness, streotypes, and white guilt/black victimization thrown in our face at every turn. It is about more than wanting to go back to a time when the south was segregated or we owned slaves to help out on plantations. Again, I have no doubt that to some KKK, Robert E. Lee worshipping morons (such as people who defend the holocaust and racism, like on that website) it is about white supremacy, but not to the majority of us. That isn't based on any kind of polling, just my personal experiences.

Edit:
Voronwe wrote:(linked Fox so we wouldnt have to address the liberal media nonsense)
Did you really feel the need to put that in there? :P
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Post by Voronwë »

it is utter bullshit to say the confederate flag is a symbol of "our heritage."

that is white separatist propaganda. the confederate battle emblem was added to the Georgia state flag in the 1950s as a direct response to civil rights legislation from the Federal government.

i have lived in the South my whole life, my great great grandfather was a sharecropper in rural NC. so i think i can speak a bit to having a Southern heritage. I love it here, and i would be content to stay here my whole life, but I will not be part of this bullshit revisionist racism to try to make all the horrific racial persecution against blacks minimized and say that this flag is a symbol of our heritage? What fucking heritage is that?

Our heritage of OWNING black people? Our heritage of lynching them? Our heritage of denying constitutional rights to a substantial portion of the populus? i mean what the fuck are you talking about our heritage? our heritage of committing acts of treason against the United States?

Southern Pride my motherfucking white ass. I love the south, i love it, and i love the people here (NOT JUST THE WHITE PEOPLE) but that flag does not represent that pride, it does not represent these people, or this community. Use your fucking brain for god's sake.
Not everyone who flies the confederate flag is a racist.
i pass by a quite a few places on the way home that have them flying, and the people that fly them are not necessarily racist, but at a minimum they are ignorant fucking morons.
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Post by Sylvus »

And you'd have them ignore their heritage of being ignorant fucking morons?

You're just as bigoted as them, Voro! :roll:
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Damn Voron, you drive it home don't ya. :evil:
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Post by Brotha »

Voronwe wrote:Southern Pride my motherfucking white ass. I love the south, i love it, and i love the people here (NOT JUST THE WHITE PEOPLE) but that flag does not represent that pride, it does not represent these people, or this community. Use your fucking brain for god's sake.
Like I said, to many people it does represent that pride, not necessarily racism. You're free to disagree with them, call them ignorant for thinking of it in that way etc (as you do), but what bothers many of them is having the blanket word "racist" thrown at them by people consumed with over-compensating white guilt thinly disguised as moral indignation.
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Post by Sylvus »

Why was the Confederate flag created? And the follow-up question, then, is why is that such a source of pride?
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Post by Brotha »

Sylvus wrote:Why was the Confederate flag created? And the follow-up question, then, is why is that such a source of pride?
Without a doubt part of what the confederate flag was made for had to do with racism, slavery, etc, but it also was based on the south standing up for what it believed in and not letting itself be dominated by northern politicians who didn't know a thing about the south and in general looked down on it- a theme that still reverberates throughout the south today.

It also represents, to some people, southern values- selectively. From what I've seen, a lot of people like to romanticize the aspects of traditional southern hospitality and morals, while leaving out the stain of slavery.

To many people the confederate flag stands for what makes the south great, and not the "dirty backyard" of the US. I haven't read a lot about it and it's never been something I've been particularly interested in, so I don't really know the position of people who defend it that well. I personally don't have a confederate flag on my bumper or in my apartment, and until a couple of years back I always thought it was a racist symbol also, but then I allowed myself to be more "open and tolerant" of other's views and discovered it represents a lot of good things to a lot of good people.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

You know the Nazi's had pieces of flare they made the jews wear.
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Post by Toshira »

No man. No. Hell no. I believe you'd get your ass kicked for saying something like that.
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Post by kyoukan »

yeah defending themselves from arrogant northern politicians with snobby agendas like ENDING SLAVERY.
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Post by Sylvus »

I've posted it before, but it's just so fitting...

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Post by Krimson Klaw »

American by birth, southern by the grace of god! lol sylvus.
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Post by Truant »

I'm sorry...the south seperated because the foundation of it's functionality was on the exploitation of a particular people. The south painted itself into a corner economically with the use of slavery. Why did they use slavery to begin with? Because it was the easiest, and most profitable way.

Sure, it's a historic symbol. It's a symbol that the south was too interested in maximizing profits, living high and well, while forcing an entire race of people to do all the work, with nothing in return.

There's a lot of culture in the south, and i'm not talking about the poor trailer living populace. But there are some seriously shameful things as well. I'm quite fond of a lot of it, and disgusted by the entire slavery issue. The confederacy wasn't sticking up for itself because it was being bullied into something like trade tarrifs. IT WAS REFUSING TO GIVE UP SLAVERY AND RECOGNIZE THE FREEDOMS OF ALL NON WHITE PEOPLE.
So if you're defending the confederacy, the confederate flag, etc...you aren't defending states rights, that's horseshit...because that was just a political way of saying, "We're states, and we get to say when we can't have slavery anymore."

Truant, born and raised in the South.
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Post by Silvarel Mistmoon »

Our heritage of OWNING black people? Our heritage of lynching them? Our heritage of denying constitutional rights to a substantial portion of the populus? i mean what the fuck are you talking about our heritage? our heritage of committing acts of treason against the United States?
You lived in the south all your life and this is all you know of your history?!

There's a lot of culture in the south, and i'm not talking about the poor trailer living populace. But there are some seriously shameful things as well. I'm quite fond of a lot of it, and disgusted by the entire slavery issue. The confederacy wasn't sticking up for itself because it was being bullied into something like trade tarrifs. IT WAS REFUSING TO GIVE UP SLAVERY AND RECOGNIZE THE FREEDOMS OF ALL NON WHITE PEOPLE.
So if you're defending the confederacy, the confederate flag, etc...you aren't defending states rights, that's horseshit...because that was just a political way of saying, "We're states, and we get to say when we can't have slavery anymore."
Yes they were trying to defend their home land. The Civil War destroyed the South and made the North boom bigger. There is a LOT more to the Civil War then most people know, they focus on Slavery and think that was the main cause of it when it was not.

Now that all of YA'LL have discussed the Southern Slavery issue would any of you damn Yankees like to discuss the Northern Slavery Issue or are you like my cousins in South Philli that weren't taught about the North having Slavery?

As far as I and MANY other Southerners are concerned there is one flag that should fly high and that is the AMERICAN flag then the states flag. The confederate is a flag of the pass, it's a flag that should not be flown IMO, because it represents the south before we became one country under one flag.

Yeah Vor I agree that democrats have to find a way to somehow appeal to lower income whites in the south if they ever want to win the south back
Yeah they can take the buss's in to the Poor white areas and buss them to the voting booths just like they do the poor black areas.

IT might help them just a little if they stopped dividing this country in to little groups, here gay person I'll do this, here black person I'll do this , here woman I'll do this, here what ever else little group I can find and lie to I will do this for you for your vote.
This is one country we all are Americans stop trying to divide us and bring us together.

AS for Dean what he said to many Southern people is We need to bring all those poor white southern pickup driving, flag waving racist people in to our tent for their vote.
Well Mr. Dean you can kiss my ass.

BTW don't vote for a party...........vote for who you believe will have the best interrest of our country in their head and heart. Don't depend on someone else to fill you in on the details of that person you vote for either.
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Post by Truant »

Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:Yes they were trying to defend their home land.

Oh yes, the motherland just came under attack unprovoked and unexpected. The south was completely innocent, and was just defending itself. ROFL
Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:The Civil War destroyed the South and made the North boom bigger.
Yes, beacuse the South had a slave driven economy that was only capable of agricultural goods. The North had this little marvel called INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT and was able to produce many of their own war goods, while the south picked their asses, looked at a field of cotton and said "Gee, wtf are we gonna do with this?"
Granted that's the war, not reconstruction...that's different.
Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:There is a LOT more to the Civil War then most people know, they focus on Slavery and think that was the main cause of it when it was not.
If there is so much more, why don't you enlighten us, instead of just claiming there is? Because we both know you're talking out your ass.
Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:Now that all of YA'LL have discussed the Southern Slavery issue would any of you damn Yankees like to discuss the Northern Slavery Issue or are you like my cousins in South Philli that weren't taught about the North having Slavery?
Woo, way to go...when your argument is thin, change the subject to a point of attack. EXCEPT YOU FAILED TO NOTICE ONE THING...the two people who have been vocal against the confederate flag and it's connection to slavery both stated to be born and raised in the south.
and wtf does attacking the north get you? Jack shit...except some good filler space to make your response look longer than it is. Of fucking course slavery was in use in all areas of the US, and the world for that matter at one point. The difference is, the north made steps to end their dependence on slavery, while the south refused to.
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Post by Silvarel Mistmoon »

Yep your right they are from GA and TX and I knew that when I read their remarks. I am saying its time that the whole ugly story about Slave labor be brought out instead of playing the south and slavery again. It gets old.

Here is Lincons First Inaugural Address........
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Abraham_ ... ss_p1.html
Fellow-Citizens of the United States:

In compliance with a custom as old as the Government itself, I appear before you to address you briefly and to take in your presence the oath prescribed by the Constitution of the United States to be taken by the President "before he enters on the execution of this office."

I do not consider it necessary at present for me to discuss those matters of administration about which there is no special anxiety or excitement.

Apprehension seems to exist among the people of the Southern States that by the accession of a Republican Administration their property and their peace and personal security are to be endangered. There has never been any reasonable cause for such apprehension. Indeed, the most ample evidence to the contrary has all the while existed and been open to their inspection. It is found in nearly all the published speeches of him who now addresses you. I do but quote from one of those speeches when I declare that--

I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
There are 6 pages to that this letter.

Here's the link to the second one..............
http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Abraham_ ... ss_p1.html
Fellow-Countrymen:

At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first. Then a statement somewhat in detail of a course to be pursued seemed fitting and proper. Now, at the expiration of four years, during which public declarations have been constantly called forth on every point and phase of the great contest which still absorbs the attention and engrosses the energies of the nation, little that is new could be presented. The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself, and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured.

On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it, all sought to avert it. While the inaugural address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, urgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war--seeking to dissolve the Union and divide effects by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war, but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive, and the other would accept war rather than let it perish, and the war came.

One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. To strengthen, perpetuate, and extend this interest was the object for which the insurgents would rend the Union even by war, while the Government claimed no right to do more than to restrict the territorial enlargement of it.
My point is that the Civil War was not simply to free slaves. It was as wars are for men in power interrests.

I am from the South and am glad we are one country and that there is no slavery in our country.
I think its time that the people in this country moves on.
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Post by Truant »

Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:Yep your right they are from GA and TX and I knew that when I read their remarks.
Then why did you call us Damn Yankees?
Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:I am saying its time that the whole ugly story about Slave labor be brought out instead of playing the south and slavery again.
I'm confused, didn't you just say the same thing twice? If not, please clarify.
Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:Here is Lincons First Inaugural Address........
Ok, I'm going to quote your bolded passage, and the last line as well, with a qualification.
Abraham Lincoln wrote:Apprehension seems to exist among the people of the Southern States that by the accession of a Republican Administration their property and their peace and personal security are to be endangered.
This statement was made to soothe the fears in regards to this next statement, the last from your passage.
Abraham Lincoln wrote:I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.
Coming together now? All the fears of disruption of property and such were all balanced on the fact that the south was unwilling to give up slavery at a time when the US was doing just that.

Silvarel Mistmoon wrote:My point is that the Civil War was not simply to free slaves. It was as wars are for men in power interrests.
Yes, the Civil War was fought over the interests of the powerful in America. But, even though you quoted it yourself...you seem to be ignoring that their interests were the abolishment or maintaining of slavery, respectively.

Let me quote again, just your bold passage from your second excerpt.
Abraham Lincoln wrote:One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war.
And for the purpose of reiteration to make a point.
These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war.
Slaves...interest....cause of the war. It's right there, from your own submission.
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Post by Forthe »

Brotha wrote:Without a doubt part of what the confederate flag was made for had to do with racism, slavery, etc, but it also was based on the south standing up for what it believed in and not letting itself be dominated by northern politicians who didn't know a thing about the south and in general looked down on it- a theme that still reverberates throughout the south today.

It also represents, to some people, southern values- selectively. From what I've seen, a lot of people like to romanticize the aspects of traditional southern hospitality and morals, while leaving out the stain of slavery.

To many people the confederate flag stands for what makes the south great, and not the "dirty backyard" of the US. I haven't read a lot about it and it's never been something I've been particularly interested in, so I don't really know the position of people who defend it that well. I personally don't have a confederate flag on my bumper or in my apartment, and until a couple of years back I always thought it was a racist symbol also, but then I allowed myself to be more "open and tolerant" of other's views and discovered it represents a lot of good things to a lot of good people.
This makes about as much sense as germans wearing Swastikas and claiming it doesn't *just* stand for the holocaust etc.
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Post by Aabidano »

/pilsburry on

This thread reminds me of a bubba from NC that used to work for me. He really believed "The south will rise again". It is, but not in the way he imagined it would. On the one hand he was fairly well educated and intelligent. On the other he was a racist, bigot and sexist, though it didn't interfere with doing his job in a mixed race enviroment. One of the funniest statements he ever made:
Well the north wouldn't have won if they didn't have all the factories
Imagine that. The south was trying to cling to a way of life that profited on the unpaid labor and lives of people they considered property and in many cases non-human.

/pilsburry off

I grew up in MO and have lived in rural SC and FL for the last 21 years. I really like it down here, but nearly every person I've ever met that flew\supported the confederate flag was either an outright racist or a closet one. Many of whom don't even admit it to themselves, though it's obvious to everyone around them.

If you think about it, it would be similar to a German wanting to fly the nazi flag to celebrate german heritage.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

I'm not into confederate flag waving, but I think your linking it to a nazi symbol is a misfitted analogy Aab.
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Post by Keverian FireCry »

Its not as bad as a nazi flag, but his point is valid.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

How do you disolve it down?

I mean at its base....


Lets say my neighbor shows a symbol publically. Let's say it's a ribbon that he wears on his shirt. This symbol reminds him of a good and civil cause.

Yet to me that very same symbol is an unpleasent reminder of an evil and burdened time.

How should we respond to each other?

I ask him why he supports such a despisable thing. He responds that the ribbon has a different meaning to him and that it challenges him to live a better life.

Should he remove his symbol that provides him encouragement because it has an different and offensive meaning to me?

Should I look at his act not through my eyes but his? Should I see that symbol he wears as the good cause that he sees?

Should he look at that symbol as I see it? Should he see the distress it causes me?


Two equal people, two different viewpoints.

I tell you guys, ALL symbols have multiple meanings. It is impractical and selfish to interpret these symbols in only one way.

We can't just remove everything that individuals take as offensive. To apply such an impractical reasoning force us to removel ALL of our symbols including things such as the American Flag, Cross, Star of David, etc.

Likewise It is foolish to look at only the good things that a symbol like the Confederate flag represents and an injustice to ignore the message of slavery that it proclaimed.

If a state wants to fly that flag let them. It's their history. Let them look at it for inspiration for civil and polite society, and let them look at it as a reminder of how evil we have been.

Let it be a marker for an older and grown-up people. Let it inspire us to be better people and let it remind us not to repeat our mistakes.

Embrace all the perspectives that such a bittersweet symbol represents.
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Post by Rivera Bladestrike »

For the person that said that the south was defending their homeland, it was the south that attacked first at Fort Sumter.
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Post by Neroon »

The war was a chain of events starting with the secession of South Carolina from the union. They seceded for essentially two reasons:

A. Lincoln, a known opponent of slavery, was about to become president.

B. The northern states were in violation of the Constitution by freeing any slaves that escaped to them (rather than shipping them back as fugitives). And refusing to allow them to be transported through them.

After they seceded, the others followed. Lincoln went to war to re-unite the union. He says in one of his addresses that he would free the slaves, or not free the slaves to bring the union back together, whichever was necessary.

So, I don't see how you can say the war wasn't about slavery. If not for the slavery issue, they never would have seceded from the union. And the states united under that flag were united for the freedom to exercise slavery (intentional irony!).
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Post by kyoukan »

Neroon wrote:So, I don't see how you can say the war wasn't about slavery. If not for the slavery issue, they never would have seceded from the union. And the states united under that flag were united for the freedom to exercise slavery (intentional irony!).
Because the racist apologists in the south claim it was over states rights and not slavery, and that slavery just happened to be the issue behind that. anyone intelligent knows that's just nonsense but the white trash in the south (the same morons who wave the confederate flag and think they are being tricky when they say they are just respecting their "heritage") like to think everyone else on the planet is as stupid as they are and that they will buy something asinine like that.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

Are you looking at both sides of the issue Kyo?

Or are you just hosing the place down with a flamethrower?

Granted the latter is more fun. :onfire:
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Post by Aabidano »

Adex_Xeda wrote:I'm not into confederate flag waving, but I think your linking it to a nazi symbol is a misfitted analogy Aab.
It's a very apt analogy IMO. The nazi flag may have been in use for a bit longer than the confederate battle flag, but both represented a regime who's sole reason for existance was the repression\subjucation of other humans. It's not southern heritage, it's a not so subtle bit of hate.

There's people complaining right now that thier kids can't wear dixie outfitters shirts to school. They say "It's not racist, it's southern heritage". A shirt with a confederate flag and a pit bull straining to attack someone represents their heritage apparently.

http://www.dixieoutfitters.com/

Every single person I've known that supported or wanted that flag flown was a bigot. Whether they'd admit it to themselves or not. It wasn't in common use until the civil rights marches and such in the mid 50s, and was dredged up consiously or subconsiously to support the status quo.
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Post by Adex_Xeda »

You've got a mental lock man, and I'm not sure what else I could say to free you up.

I do agree with you on one thing however. The two people I've met that are really into this southern heritage thing were from an older time when racism was a strong undercurrent.
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Post by Aabidano »

Not a lock really, I understood what you were saying earlier. If people want to use it personally, go to it.

I don't think it should be flown from govt buildings, etc.. that support\represent all the people.
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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Well it may be small of me or whatever you want to call it, but not a single time have I seen a confederate flag on a pickup truck and NOT thought the person was anything other than a racist. But that's just me, take it for what it's worth and all that stuff. I don't see a big water marked rebel flag on the back window of a pickup truck and say to myself "there goes another person that's proud to be from the south, and loves their heritage...slavery? what's that got to do with it". Isee that flag, I immediately think that person wanted to keep things the way they were, with blacks in submission, and their pissed that the south lost the war.

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Post by Cartalas »

The Confederate Flag should not be a part of any govt agency if it is even percived as a rasicst flag. But if some hunyuck wants to have it on his truck thats his right. Not saying it is right but thats freedom of speech




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Post by Krimson Klaw »

Cartalas wtf does a 1960/70's afro pick that symbolizes black strength, unity and resolve against inequality have to do with flying the colors which represent an oppressive society, you freakin moron? Why did you come back anyway?
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Post by Cartalas »

Krimson Klaw wrote:Cartalas wtf does a 1960/70's afro pick that symbolizes black strength, unity and resolve against inequality have to do with flying the colors which represent an oppressive society, you freakin moron? Why did you come back anyway?
Krimson im not trying to get in a argument but there is no difference. maybe the Flag represents ( For the person waving it),white strength, unity and resolve against inequality.

And I came back just to make your day.
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