An excellent read

What do you think about the world?
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Brotha
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An excellent read

Post by Brotha »

My thoughts exactly concerning how many people view Israel. His description of "fashionable anti-Semitism among the educated" is right on.

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/ha ... 310840.asp
There are certain predictable symptoms to watch when a widespread amorality begins to infect a postmodern society: cultural relativism, atheism, socialism, utopian pacifism. Another sign, of course, is fashionable anti-Semitism among the educated, or the idea that some imaginary cabal, or some stealthy agenda — certainly not our own weakness — is conspiring to threaten our good life.

Well apart from the spooky placards (stars of David juxtaposed with swastikas, posters calling for the West Bank to be expanded to "the sea") that we are accustomed to seeing at the marches of the supposedly ethical antiwar movement, we have also heard some examples of Jew-baiting and hissing in the last two weeks that had nothing to do with the old crazies. Indeed, such is the nature of the new anti-Semitism that everyone can now play at it — as long as it is cloaked in third-world chauvinism, progressive thinking, and identity politics.

The latest lunatic rantings from Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad are nothing new, and we should not be surprised by his mindless blabbering about Jews and his fourth-grade understanding of World War II and the present Middle East. But what was fascinating was the reaction to his madness: silence from the Arab intelligentsia, praise from Middle Eastern leaders ("A brilliant speech," gushed Iran's "president" Mohammad Khatami), and worry from France and Greece about an EU proclamation against the slander. Most American pundits were far more concerned about the private, over-the-top comments of Gen. Boykin than about the public viciousness of a head of state. Paul Krugman, for example, expressed the general mushiness of the Left when he wrote a column trying to put Mahathir Mohamad's hatred in a sympathetic context, something he would never do for a Christian zealot who slurred Muslims.

Much has been written about the usually circumspect Greg Easterbrook's bizarre ranting about "Jewish executives" who profit from Quentin Tarantino's latest bloody production. But, again, the problem is not so much the initial slips and slurs as it is the more calculated and measured "explanation." Easterbrook's mea culpa cited his prior criticism of Mel Gibson, as if the supposed hypocrisy of a devout and public Christian's having trafficked in filmed violence were commensurate with the dealings of two ordinary businessmen who do not publicly embrace religion. Michael Eisner and Harvey Weinstein simply happen to be movie executives, with no stake in producing Jewish movies or public-morality films, but — like most in Hollywood — with a stake in making money from films. That they are Jewish has absolutely no bearing on their purported lack of morality — unless, of course, one seeks to invent some wider pathology, evoking historical paranoia about profiteering, cabals, and "the Jews."

Recently, Joseph Lieberman was hissed by an Arab-American audience in Dearborn, Mich. when he briefly explained Israel's defensive wall in terms not unlike those used by Howard Dean and other candidates. What earned him the special public rebuke not accorded to others was apparently nothing other than being Jewish — the problem was not what he said, but who he was. No real apology followed, and the usually judicious and sober David Broder wrote an interesting column praising the new political acumen of the Arab-American community.

Tony Judt, writing in The New York Review of Books, has published one of the most valuable and revealing articles about the Middle East to appear in the last 20 years. There has always been the suspicion that European intellectuals favored the dismantling of Israel as we know it through the merging of this uniquely democratic and liberal state with West Bank neighbors who have a horrific record of human-rights abuses, autocracy, and mass murder. After all, for all too many Europeans, how else but with the end of present-day Israel will the messy Middle East and its attendant problems — oil, terrorism, anti-Semitism, worries over unassimilated Muslim populations in Europe, anti-Americanism, and postcolonial guilt — become less bothersome? Moreover, who now knows or cares much about what happened to Jews residing under Arab governments — the over half-million or so who, in the last half-century, have been ethnically cleansed from (and sometimes murdered in) Baghdad, Cairo, Damascus, and almost every Jewish community in the Arab Middle East?

And what is the value of the only democratic government in a sea of autocracy if its existence butts up against notions of third-world victimhood and causes so much difficulty for the Western intelligentsia? Still, few intellectuals were silly enough to dress up that insane idea under the pretext of a serious argument (an unhinged Vidal, Chomsky, or Said does not count). Judt did, and now he has confirmed what most of us knew for years — namely, that there is an entrenched and ever-bolder school of European thought that favors the de facto elimination of what is now a democratic Jewish state.

What links all these people — a Muslim head of state, a rude crowd in Michigan, an experienced magazine contributor, and a European public intellectual — besides their having articulated a spreading anger against the "Jews"? Perhaps a growing unease with hard questions that won't go away and thus beg for easy, cheap answers.

A Malaysian official and his apologists must realize that gender apartheid, statism, tribalism, and the anti-democratic tendencies of the Middle East cause its poverty and frustration despite a plethora of natural resources (far more impressive assets than the non-petroleum-bearing rocks beneath parched Israel). But why call for introspection when the one-syllable slur "Jews" suffices instead?

And why would an Arab-American audience — itself composed of many who fled the tyranny and economic stagnation of Arab societies for the freedom and opportunity of a liberal United States — wish to hear a reasoned explanation of the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian war when it was so much easier to hiss and moan, especially when mainstream observers would ignore their anti-Semitism and be impressed instead with the cadre of candidates who flock to Michigan?

How do you explain to an audience that Quentin Tarantino appeals both to teens and to empty-headed critics precisely because something is terribly amiss in America, when affluent and leisured suburbanites are drawn to scenes of raw killing as long as it is dressed up with "art" and "meaning"?

How could a Tony Judt write a reasoned and balanced account of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when to do so would either alienate or bore the literati?

So they all, whether by design or laxity, take the easier way out — especially when slurring "Israel" or "the Jews" involves none of the risks of incurring progressive odium that similarly clumsy attacks against blacks, women, Palestinians, or homosexuals might draw, requires no real thinking, and seems to find an increasingly receptive audience.

You see, in our mixed-up world those Jewish are not a "people of color." And if there really is such a mythical monolithic entity in America as the "Jews," they (much like the Cubans) are not easily stereotyped as impoverished victims needing largesse or condescension, and much less are they eligible under any of the current myriad of rubrics that count for public support. Israel is a successful Western state, not a failed third-world despotism. Against terrible oppression and overt anti-Semitism, the Jewish community here and abroad found success — proof that hard work, character, education, and personal discipline can trump both natural and human adversity. In short, the story of American Jewry and Israel resonates not at all with the heartstrings of a modern therapeutic society, which is quick to show envy for the successful and cheap concern for the struggling.

This fashionable anti-Semitism and anti-Israelism — especially among purported intellectuals of the Left — reveals a deep-seated, scary pathology that is growing geometrically both in and outside the West. For a Europe that is disarmed, plagued by a demographic nightmare of negative population growth and unsustainable entitlements, filled with unassimilated immigrants, and deeply angry about the power and presence of the United States, the Jews and their Israel provide momentary relief on the cheap. So expect that more crazy thoughts of Israel's destruction dressed up as peace plans will be as common as gravestone and synagogue smashing.

For the Muslim world that must confront the power of the patriarch, mullah, tribe, and autocrat if it is ever to share the freedom and prosperity of the rest of the world, the Jews offer a much easier target. So expect even more raving madness as the misery of Islamic society grows and its state-run media hunker down amid widespread unrest. Anticipate, also, more sick posters at C-SPAN broadcast marches, more slips by reasonable writers, and more anti-Israeli denunciations from the "liberals."

These are weird, weird times, and before we win this messy war against Islamic fascism and its sponsors, count on things to get even uglier. Don't expect any reasoned military analysis that puts the post-9/11 destruction of the Taliban and Saddam Hussein's evil regime, along with the liberation of 50 million at the cost of 300 American lives, in any sort of historical context. After all, in the current presidential race, a retired general now caricatures U.S. efforts in Iraq and quotes Al Sharpton.

Do not look for the Islamic community here to acknowledge that the United States, in little over a decade, freed Kuwait, saved most of the Bosnians and Kosovars, tried to feed Somalis, urged the Russians not to kill Chechnyans, belatedly ensured that no longer were Shiites and Kurds to be slaughtered in Iraq, spoke out against Kuwait's ethnic cleansing of a third of a million Palestinians — and now is spending $87 billion to make Iraqis free.

That the Arab world would appreciate billions of dollars in past American aid to Jordan, Egypt, and the Palestinian Authority, or thank America for its help in Kuwait and Kosovo, or be grateful to America for freeing Iraq — all this is about as plausible as the idea that Western Europeans would acknowledge their past salvation from Nazism and Soviet Communism, or be grateful for the role the United States plays to promote democracy in Panama, Haiti, the Balkans, or the Middle East.

No, in this depressing age, the real problem is apparently our support for democratic Israel and all those pesky Jews worldwide, who seem to crop up everywhere as sly war makers, grasping film executives, conspiratorial politicians, and greedy colonialists, and thus make life so difficult for the rest of us.
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Post by VariaVespasa »

Lordy, what a bunch of turgid, tiresome and pretentious drivel.

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Post by kyoukan »

Yeah people who use big, important words and tend to take 15 paragraphs to state what an experienced and intelligent writer could state in two tend to impress the intellectually dull folks like brotha.
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Post by Zamtuk »

good to see he used his thesaurus
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Post by Xzion »

biitch, dem A-rabs a' crakahs don like em Jews cuz dey read book n shiiit
but dem crakahs don like dem a-rab either couse dat shit in bling bling
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Post by Wulfran »

I read it for its comedic value but it fell as short there as it did, in its bid to be something well thought out.
There has always been the suspicion that European intellectuals favored the dismantling of Israel as we know it through the merging of this uniquely democratic and liberal state with West Bank neighbors who have a horrific record of human-rights abuses, autocracy, and mass murder.
I have to admit I loved this quote. We all know what a peaceful, forgiving and "Liberal" country Israel is. And its nice to be able to shift blame for a lot of the support Arab terrorists get to where it rightfully belongs: those interfering Euros who wouldn't support the War in Iraq!

I really hope the person that wrote this doesn't make money by publishing this type of shit...
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Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

ahahahahah.

that's not real is it?

hahahahaha.
IT'S HARD TO PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT; SOMETHING IS WRONG
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Post by Keverian FireCry »

This is one of the most ignorant and haughty peices of trash I have ever read. I am going to print this out on the back of a used peice of paper, piss on it, let it dry, burn it and then shit on the ashes.
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Post by Kelgar »

kyoukan wrote:Yeah people who use big, important words and tend to take 15 paragraphs to state what an experienced and intelligent writer could state in two tend to impress the intellectually dull folks like brotha.
No kidding. Sounds like Pils sans the flurry of multisyllabic, important sounding words. I knew I was in for a good laugh once I saw "an excellent read" and Brotha's name next to the thread title.

Crap from the National Review is as always....a joke. It's maybe half a step up from the shit that comes from http://www.anncoulter.org/.

The author has virtually no facts to support his opinions and is as such, a fucking joke. He, like all the other stupid fucktard neo-cons, confuses or deliberately obfuscates anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism.
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Post by kyoukan »

what, you read it? I couldn't get passed the first paragraph before I started drowning in a sea of what appeared to be a first year communications student at a community college trying to impress his instructor.
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Post by Deward »

I actually made it about 4 paragraphs but the last thing I want to do is try and decipher crap like this on a monday morning. Someone want to summarize it for me? I think the author was trying to say Jews are bad but I didn't get that far.
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Post by Pahreyia »

I made it about halfway... then the stench of drivel was far too strong for me.
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Post by Chidoro »

So people didn't find the speech from the now former leader of Malaysia to be anti-semetic? Just curious
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Post by Ashur »

I'd hate to have to grade essays as part of my job.
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Post by Truant »

You all beat me. I saw Brotha's name and stopped right there.
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Post by vn_Tanc »

So people didn't find the speech from the now former leader of Malaysia to be anti-semetic? Just curious
It clearly is. However he's the leader of a country with a population that is massively islamist, so it's to be expected whether he personally believes it or not. US support for Israel has always been a bete noir for the Islamists so it's unsurprising they're prepared to see a conspiracy. Especially at times like these.

Edit: PS: Love the way you spun the question.
Last edited by vn_Tanc on November 3, 2003, 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Xyphir »

Just thought I'd offer up this opposing view (Source).
Five Israelis were seen filming as jet liners ploughed into the Twin Towers on September 11, 2001 ...

THERE was ruin and terror in Manhattan, but, over the Hudson River in New Jersey, a handful of men were dancing. As the World Trade Centre burned and crumpled, the five men celebrated and filmed the worst atrocity ever committed on American soil as it played out before their eyes.

Who do you think they were? Palestinians? Saudis? Iraqis, even? Al-Qaeda, surely? Wrong on all counts. They were Israelis – and at least two of them were Israeli intelligence agents, working for Mossad, the equivalent of MI6 or the CIA.

Their discovery and arrest that morning is a matter of indisputable fact. To those who have investigated just what the Israelis were up to that day, the case raises one dreadful possibility: that Israeli intelligence had been shadowing the al-Qaeda hijackers as they moved from the Middle East through Europe and into America where they trained as pilots and prepared to suicide-bomb the symbolic heart of the United States. And the motive? To bind America in blood and mutual suffering to the Israeli cause.

After the attacks on New York and Washington, the former Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, was asked what the terrorist strikes would mean for US-Israeli relations. He said: “It’s very good.” Then he corrected himself, adding: “Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy [for Israel from Americans].”

If Israel’s closest ally felt the collective pain of mass civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists, then Israel would have an unbreakable bond with the world’s only hyperpower and an effective free hand in dealing with the Palestinian terrorists who had been murdering its innocent civilians as the second intifada dragged on throughout 2001.

It’s not surprising that the New Jersey housewife who first spotted the five Israelis and their white van wants to preserve her anonymity. She’s insisted that she only be identified as Maria. A neighbour in her apartment building had called her just after the first strike on the Twin Towers. Maria grabbed a pair of binoculars and, like millions across the world, she watched the horror of the day unfold.

As she gazed at the burning towers, she noticed a group of men kneeling on the roof of a white van in her parking lot. Here’s her recollection: “They seemed to be taking a movie. They were like happy, you know ... they didn’t look shocked to me. I thought it was strange.”

Maria jotted down the van’s registration and called the police. The FBI was alerted and soon there was a statewide all points bulletin put out for the apprehension of the van and its occupants. The cops traced the number, establishing that it belonged to a company called Urban Moving.

Police Chief John Schmidig said: “We got an alert to be on the lookout for a white Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration and writing on the side. Three individuals were seen celebrating in Liberty State Park after the impact. They said three people were jumping up and down.”

By 4pm on the afternoon of September 11, the van was spotted near New Jersey’s Giants stadium. A squad car pulled it over and inside were five men in their 20s. They were hustled out of the car with guns levelled at their heads and handcuffed.

In the car was $4700 in cash, a couple of foreign passports and a pair of box cutters – the concealed Stanley Knife-type blades used by the 19 hijackers who’d flown jetliners into the World Trade Centre and Pentagon just hours before. There were also fresh pictures of the men standing with the smouldering wreckage of the Twin Towers in the background. One image showed a hand flicking a lighter in front of the devastated buildings, like a fan at a pop concert. The driver of the van then told the arresting officers: “We are Israeli. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are the problem.”



His name was Sivan Kurzberg. The other four passengers were Kurzberg’s brother Paul, Yaron Shmuel, Oded Ellner and Omer Marmari. The men were dragged off to prison and transferred out of the custody of the FBI’s Criminal Division and into the hands of their Foreign Counterintelligence Section – the bureau’s anti-espionage squad.

A warrant was issued for a search of the Urban Moving premises in Weehawken in New Jersey. Boxes of papers and computers were removed. The FBI questioned the firm’s Israeli owner, Dominik Otto Suter, but when agents returned to re-interview him a few days later, he was gone. An employee of Urban Moving said his co-workers had laughed about the Manhattan attacks the day they happened. “I was in tears,” the man said. “These guys were joking and that bothered me. These guys were like, ‘Now America knows what we go through.’”

Vince Cannistraro, former chief of operations for counter-terrorism with the CIA, says the red flag went up among investigators when it was discovered that some of the Israelis’ names were found in a search of the national intelligence database. Cannistraro says many in the US intelligence community believed that some of the Israelis were working for Mossad and there was speculation over whether Urban Moving had been “set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists”.

This makes it clear that there was no suggestion whatsoever from within American intelligence that the Israelis were colluding with the 9/11 hijackers – simply that the possibility remains that they knew the attacks were going to happen, but effectively did nothing to help stop them.

After the owner vanished, the offices of Urban Moving looked as if they’d been closed down in a big hurry. Mobile phones were littered about, the office phones were still connected and the property of at least a dozen clients were stacked up in the warehouse. The owner had cleared out his family home in New Jersey and returned to Israel.

Two weeks after their arrest, the Israelis were still in detention, held on immigration charges. Then a judge ruled that they should be deported. But the CIA scuppered the deal and the five remained in custody for another two months. Some went into solitary confinement, all underwent two polygraph tests and at least one underwent up to seven lie detector sessions before they were eventually deported at the end of November 2001. Paul Kurzberg refused to take a lie detector test for 10 weeks, but then failed it. His lawyer said he was reluctant to take the test as he had once worked for Israeli intelligence in another country.

Nevertheless, their lawyer, Ram Horvitz, dismissed the allegations as “stupid and ridiculous”. Yet US government sources still maintained that the Israelis were collecting information on the fundraising activities of groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Mark Regev, of the Israeli embassy in Washington, would have none of that and he said the allegations were “simply false”. The men themselves claimed they’d read about the World Trade Centre attacks on the internet, couldn’t see it from their office and went to the parking lot for a better view. Their lawyers and the embassy say their ghoulish and sinister celebrations as the Twin Towers blazed and thousands died were due to youthful foolishness.

The respected New York Jewish newspaper, The Forward, reported in March 2002, however, that it had received a briefing on the case of the five Israelis from a US official who was regularly updated by law enforcement agencies. This is what he told The Forward: “The assessment was that Urban Moving Systems was a front for the Mossad and operatives employed by it.” He added that “the conclusion of the FBI was that they were spying on local Arabs”, but the men were released because they “did not know anything about 9/11”.



Back in Israel, several of the men discussed what happened on an Israeli talk show. One of them made this remarkable comment: “The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event.” But how can you document an event unless you know it is going to happen?

We are now deep in conspiracy theory territory. But there is more than a little circumstantial evidence to show that Mossad – whose motto is “By way of deception, thou shalt do war” – was spying on Arab extremists in the USA and may have known that September 11 was in the offing, yet decided to withhold vital information from their American counterparts which could have prevented the terror attacks.

Following September 11, 2001, more than 60 Israelis were taken into custody under the Patriot Act and immigration laws. One highly placed investigator told Carl Cameron of Fox News that there were “tie-ins” between the Israelis and September 11; the hint was clearly that they’d gathered intelligence on the planned attacks but kept it to themselves.

The Fox News source refused to give details, saying: “Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.” Fox News is not noted for its condemnation of Israel; it’s a ruggedly patriotic news channel owned by Rupert Murdoch and was President Bush’s main cheerleader in the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq.

Another group of around 140 Israelis were detained prior to September 11, 2001, in the USA as part of a widespread investigation into a suspected espionage ring run by Israel inside the USA. Government documents refer to the spy ring as an “organised intelligence-gathering operation” designed to “penetrate government facilities”. Most of those arrested had served in the Israeli armed forces – but military service is compulsory in Israel. Nevertheless, a number had an intelligence background.

The first glimmerings of an Israeli spying exercise in the USA came to light in spring 2001, when the FBI sent a warning to other federal agencies alerting them to be wary of visitors calling themselves “Israeli art students” and attempting to bypass security at federal buildings in order to sell paintings. A Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) report suggested the Israeli calls “may well be an organised intelligence-gathering activity”. Law enforcement documents say that the Israelis “targeted and penetrated military bases” as well as the DEA, FBI and dozens of government facilities, including secret offices and the unlisted private homes of law enforcement and intelligence personnel.



A number of Israelis questioned by the authorities said they were students from Bezalel Academy of Art and Design, but Pnina Calpen, a spokeswoman for the Israeli school, did not recognise the names of any Israelis mentioned as studying there in the past 10 years. A federal report into the so-called art students said many had served in intelligence and electronic signal intercept units during their military service.

According to a 61-page report, drafted after an investigation by the DEA and the US immigration service, the Israelis were organised into cells of four to six people. The significance of what the Israelis were doing didn’t emerge until after September 11, 2001, when a report by a French intelligence agency noted “according to the FBI, Arab terrorists and suspected terror cells lived in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as in Miami and Hollywood, Florida, from December 2000 to April 2001 in direct proximity to the Israeli spy cells”.

The report contended that Mossad agents were spying on Mohammed Atta and Marwan al-Shehi, two of leaders of the 9/11 hijack teams. The pair had settled in Hollywood, Florida, along with three other hijackers, after leaving Hamburg – where another Mossad team was operating close by.

Hollywood in Florida is a town of just 25,000 souls. The French intelligence report says the leader of the Mossad cell in Florida rented apartments “right near the apartment of Atta and al-Shehi”. More than a third of the Israeli “art students” claimed residence in Florida. Two other Israelis connected to the art ring showed up in Fort Lauderdale. At one time, eight of the hijackers lived just north of the town.

Put together, the facts do appear to indicate that Israel knew that 9/11, or at least a large-scale terror attack, was about to take place on American soil, but did nothing to warn the USA. But that’s not quite true. In August 2001, the Israelis handed over a list of terrorist suspects – on it were the names of four of the September 11 hijackers. Significantly, however, the warning said the terrorists were planning an attack “outside the United States”.

The Israeli embassy in Washington has dismissed claims about the spying ring as “simply untrue”. The same denials have been issued repeatedly by the five Israelis seen high-fiving each other as the World Trade Centre burned in front of them.

Their lawyer, Ram Horwitz, insisted his clients were not intelligence officers. Irit Stoffer, the Israeli foreign minister, said the allegations were “completely untrue”. She said the men were arrested because of “visa violations”, adding: “The FBI investigated those cases because of 9/11.”

Jim Margolin, an FBI spokesman in New York, implied that the public would never know the truth, saying: “If we found evidence of unauthorised intelligence operations that would be classified material.” Yet, Israel has long been known, according to US administration sources, for “conducting the most aggressive espionage operations against the US of any US ally”. Seventeen years ago, Jonathan Pollard, a civilian working for the American Navy, was jailed for life for passing secrets to Israel. At first, Israel claimed Pollard was part of a rogue operation, but the government later took responsibility for his work.

It has always been a long-accepted agreement among allies – such as Britain and America or America and Israel – that neither country will jail a “friendly spy” nor shame the allied country for espionage. Chip Berlet, a senior analyst at Boston’s Political Research Associates and an expert in intelligence, says: “It’s a backdoor agreement between allies that says that if one of your spies gets caught and didn’t do too much harm, he goes home. It goes on all the time. The official reason is always visa violation.”

What we are left with, then, is fact sullied by innuendo. Certainly, it seems, Israel was spying within the borders of the United States and it is equally certain that the targets were Islamic extremists probably linked to September 11. But did Israel know in advance that the Twin Towers would be hit and the world plunged into a war without end; a war which would give Israel the power to strike its enemies almost without limit? That’s a conspiracy theory too far, perhaps. But the unpleasant feeling that, in this age of spin and secrets, we do not know the full and unadulterated truth won’t go away. Maybe we can guess, but it’s for the history books to discover and decide.

02 November 2003
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Post by Metanis »

However, far from pointing to Israeli spying against U.S. government and military facilities, as reported in Europe last week, the incidents in question appear to represent a case of Israelis in the United States spying on a common enemy, radical Islamic networks suspected of links to Middle East terrorism.
http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.03.15/news2.html

This story about the 5 Israelis actually helps prove the original poster's thesis. It's evidence the press is all too happy to spread allegations and rumor that is negative to Israeli interests.

Please read this and the former link carefully and critically, it's all about rumor and conjecture and very light on facts.
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Post by Voronwë »

Metanis, that story was not picked up in the popular media. where is the attribution above?

in other words it doesnt start out:
NEW YORK, New York (AP)....
maybe it seems mainstream if you go to those AmericanLibertyWhitePride.com websites or whatever.


so for you to suggest that story proves the media is biased against Israel is flawed.

Because it relies on the premise that the mainstream media reported this story. Which it did not.
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Post by Siji »

I saw "bling bling" in a message on this thread, I think.

The rest was flushed like ascii diarriah..

Bling bling!
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Post by Metanis »

Voronwë wrote:Metanis, that story was not picked up in the popular media. where is the attribution above?

in other words it doesnt start out:
NEW YORK, New York (AP)....
maybe it seems mainstream if you go to those AmericanLibertyWhitePride.com websites or whatever.


so for you to suggest that story proves the media is biased against Israel is flawed.

Because it relies on the premise that the mainstream media reported this story. Which it did not.
Read the thread moron.
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Post by Skogen »

That was entirely too painful to read. Moreover, it was a bunch of crap.

This guy's motto is "Why say it in two words when I can say it in 50?".
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Post by Voronwë »

considering i watch about 50-60 hours of news a week mostly of a channel that tends to continue to cover the Israeli/Palestinian issue, i dont need to read some article to decide how the media covers the events.

i know, because i see it. i dont need to read 5 articles of other peoples' opinions on how it is covered.

And in my opinion, Israel is covered faily accurately on outlets like CNNI and BBC World. Domestically in the US, the coverage tends to fall slightly on the sympathetic to Israel side on outlets like NBC, CNN, Fox, etc.

There is no doubt there is a lot of anti-Semitism in the world. But considering the Palestinian people are also a Semitic race, one could say that the government of Israel is selectively anti-Semitic, especially when they seize Palestinian farmland to build a security fence - which is essentially a way to physically establish the border of Israel in the fashion that Israel wants to, not the borders established by the UN and accepted by the international community.

That being said, whenever Israel gets shit on for overstepping their bounds, it is downright shameful that part of their PR blitz is to accuse those who are merely reporting the truth with being racists.

but it is an effective tactic, and it will continue to be used.

And Metanis, where is the so-called original article from the European press making the anti-Israeli comments. I'm not saying it didnt happen, but quoting the Forward is not the same thing. granted if it is not an english language outlet, that doesnt really help us here.

What you have quoted is a news article from a Jewish-American newspaper that has an admitted financial interest in serving a particular ethnic group as its client base. so yeah that gives a particular bit of information on whether or not the media may or may not have an anti-Israeli bias, but it is the opinion from the perspective of an admittedly pro-Israeli (ie NON-objective) source.

It is absolutely terrible that there are some crazy groups like Al Aqsa Marty'rs Brigade (which has severed ties with Arafat, even imprisoned the deputy from the PA in the camp they control) who target Israeli civilians. It is terrible and those people should be exterminated. But that does not mean it is OK for the government of Israel to also exist as a front for unlimited immigration of Europeans into the region and displace Palestinian families with bulldozers and the like to make homes for them.
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Post by Xzion »

i say we get all them godamn pagan liberals and burn em at the steak
whos with me?
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Post by Voronwë »

i take my steak medium rare, thanks
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Post by Kargyle »

The only thing excellent about that article is that it ends and your IQ isn't permanentlydamaged from having read it.
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Post by Chidoro »

I think it's just hard for people to swallow that while the circumstances that led to the creation of Israel as a formal entity weren't exactly amiable to the then residents(and it was a largly british move, not american as some people here seem to believe), it's very existance has come under fire quite openly since it's inception. It's a very difficult situation. I'm not going to continue to persue this on this board after this because I really believe defending Palestinian gains via the methods they use are despicable yet ignored here as evidence by the anti-Israel posts. It's sad really. If I point to an attack on their military or even the settlers in lands that don't belong to them, I'm not terribly sympathetic. I won't be. I understand that issue. I'm not a religious nut that wants to settle in God's country. I appreciate everything that's around me. I don't need to slip a note into the Wailing Wall to have it heard.

However, if you attack people residing in western Jerusalem or any number of places where the battlefield is created only to maintain conflict, I get digusted. I'm sorry but some people, even on this board, find it very easy and convenient to bash a country who has to implement policy because of the barbaric environment their "foes" create for them. That's not to say I agree with a wall which crosses the borders either. It's a decision to not crucify Irael for their decisions when those decisions are made because they have been put on their heels since their inception.

I hate it all. I hate the feeling that Israelis are considered evil because they try to defend themselves against people that want nothing more than their eradication. I hate that they are villanized because these very people hide amongst the everyday Palestinian because they can get away with being martyrs. Somehow, it's justified behavior to kill innocents that aren't even apart of the situation because of religious radicals are settling in lands that don't belong to them.

It's been proven time and time again that there are a significant number of people on both sides that can coexist. You see it in the hospitals, restaurants and universities there. Guess which places are the target of such attacks by the radical Palestinians. Yes, the very places that bring both sides together. This undying sympathy for the Palestinian cause at all costs to people that have nothing to do with the struggle disgusts me.

I'll look at it as openly as possible as a Jew can on a board that feels terrorism is a reasonable solution to this problem, but freedom fighting != killing innocents not associated with the problem. Whether it's targetting innocents in Israel or "collateral" damage because the terrorists hide amongst the populace, it's not right.
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Post by Drolgin Steingrinder »

Chidoro wrote:However, if you attack people residing in western Jerusalem or any number of places where the battlefield is created only to maintain conflict, I get digusted.
I understand your point, but I feel I need to counter with a question:

How is this different from performing air strikes on refugee camps that may or may not have some intifada sympathizers? How is this different from systematically terrorizing the west bank palestinians and covertly aiding the rabid, fanatic settlers there?

It's not a situation of rabid anti-semitism on this board. It's a situation where people get a bad taste in their mouth when Israel yet again tries to smooth over atrocities performed by their "defense forces" by angling for sympathy because of injustices done to them in the past.
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Post by Keverian FireCry »

Both sides are completely fucked up and refuse to share the supposed holy land. I don't consider either side to be "evil" or "good", it is far more comlicated than that. The thing that frustrates me is the american media and government sends the message that Israelis are the "good guys" and Palestinians are the "bad guys".
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Post by vn_Tanc »

I think it's just hard for people to swallow that while the circumstances that led to the creation of Israel as a formal entity weren't exactly amiable to the then residents(and it was a largly british move, not american as some people here seem to believe), it's very existance has come under fire quite openly since it's inception.
The British agreed the borders of Palestine after being given the mandate to administer the area. These agreements were generally with other colonial powers in the area: France ran Syria for instance. The Brits then left just before the war that created Israel. The UN had formulated a plan for coexisting Israeli/Palestinian lands that were rejected in favour of fighting for it. This was an ugly little war where the arabs mostly just ran away. At the end of it the borders pretty much matched the UN plan except for Jerusalem. It's existence immediately came under fire due to the way it was created. No country would recognise Israel until the US did, which is probably why the US gets the "blame".
It's a very difficult situation. I'm not going to continue to persue this on this board after this because I really believe defending Palestinian gains via the methods they use are despicable yet ignored here as evidence by the anti-Israel posts
What the fuck? This is the other tactic used by Israelis in their own defence. If you even so much as hint at acknowledging that 50 years of living in refugee camps and being ignored or oppressed according to whatever the current fashion is MIGHT just lead people to behave in an unreasonable fashion, the squawking about "supporting terrorists" starts. Most people simply refuse to discuss the subject at all which is unhelpful in the extreme. Yes, terrorist acts against civilians are despicable. But they don't just suddenly appear in a vacuum. To deny cause and effect by making the subject taboo is a nonsense.
However, if you attack people residing in western Jerusalem or any number of places where the battlefield is created only to maintain conflict, I get digusted. I'm sorry but some people, even on this board, find it very easy and convenient to bash a country who has to implement policy because of the barbaric environment their "foes" create for them
This to my mind is a chicken and egg argument. The blame lies evenly on both sides IMO. It's a cycle of violence neither side seems interested in breaking. Not that I expect much from the current Israeli government, and even less from the islamist groups arrayed against them.
I hate it all. I hate the feeling that Israelis are considered evil because they try to defend themselves against people that want nothing more than their eradication
The PLO recognised Isreal's right to exist over 10 years ago. Some but not all of the neighboring arab countries have done the same, or at least tried. Anwar Sadat paid the ultimate price for it.
There have been numerous opportunites for arab/israeli peace in the last 55 years. They've all failed due to bad timing, fumbling, complete lack of interest, misunderstandings or shameless cold-war manipulation. As I see it, Israel and the PLO wasted so many years and opportunities by foolishly refusing to talk to each other that by the time they DID, it was too late. The PLO no longer represents the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Organisations such as Hamas do. This is largely the PLOs fault for being so ineffectual but the Israeli refusal to accept them as representing the views of Palestinians for so long is a contributing factor. Watching Sharon blame Arafat for failing to keep control is laughable. He's barely in control of the PLO itself never mind the rest of the Palestinians.
After finally coming together and resolving some differences, Israel ended up making a deal with an irrelevant organisation. The PLO recognises Israel but now it has new enemies that do not. It's sad. What's even sadder is that the stupid old men (on both sides) who have been the major players of this sorry tale for it's ENTIRE 55 year history are still in charge, still making stupid decisions, and there's just no end in sight.
I hate that they are villanized because these very people hide amongst the everyday Palestinian because they can get away with being martyrs.
Yeah I'm sure that these "everday palestinians" who enter Israel from the refugee camps to do your grunt work are part of the political problem. It seems odd to me to oppress a bunch of people and at the same time invite them into your cities to work for you.
Somehow, it's justified behavior to kill innocents that aren't even apart of the situation because of religious radicals are settling in lands that don't belong to them
Desperate people take desperate measures. Acknowledging that people have a breaking point and will go to extreme ends when pushed does not make me a terrorist sympathizer. The Israeli insistence on being seen as blameless similarly does not make it so. Simply put, the excuse for extreme behaviour being due to the actions of your enemies works for both sides in this conflict. And as usual a few intransigent fools in key positions plus a couple of suicide bombers or Baruch Goldsteins on either side and the majority have to suffer. I still believe the majority on both sides of this conflict are moderate and would like a peace. I just don't see it happening with the current generation of political leaders.
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Post by Skogen »

/nod
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Post by Pahreyia »

I must say, I'm very impressed with the logic of your argument Tanc. Well done.
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Post by Xyun »

That national review article is an excellent read as much as toker's underwear is an excellent place to rest your nose.
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Post by Keverian FireCry »

I must say, I'm very impressed with the logic of your argument Tanc. Well done.
Agreed, if you like his arguments, you should have heard is masterfully creative and on-the-ball flaming skills in-game. :D

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Post by Wulfran »

Well said Tanc: that sums up a lot of my understanding/feelings about the whole situation.
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