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Ebumar · Post by **Ebumar** » November 1, 2003, 6:08 pm

I fucking hate french people.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... lloween_dc

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 1, 2003, 10:09 pm

Hate to tell you, but most countries are trying to fight against holidays being imported by greedy store owners. In Norway we have a VERY old tradition kind of similar to trick or treating, but it is during Christmas. Now the greed is working on implementing Halloween so they can earn money on prefab costumes etc.

It has nothing to do with being French. It has to do with protecting your own, old values and tradition. Something Americans seem to have a problem understanding, probably because of how young the country is.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » November 1, 2003, 11:01 pm

It's their country. Doesn't bother me any.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » November 1, 2003, 11:31 pm

Do you hate jewish people for not celebrating Christmas too?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 1, 2003, 11:33 pm

big difference. you don't see jewish people people running around trying to boycott christmas or encouraging people not to participate in it.

besides, halloween is pretty secular.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » November 2, 2003, 2:30 am

Commercial holidays make me ill. When I was a kid, Xmas and Halloween were the two holidays I looked forward to most. Now, the advent of the "holiday shopping season" makes me want to vomit. And don't get me started on fucking Hallmark's hostile takeover of Valentine's Day.

Good luck Francois, whatever your reasons!

Legenae · Post by **Legenae** » November 2, 2003, 8:42 pm

Ebumar wrote:I fucking hate french people.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... lloween_dc

I think you need to re-read the article.

Ebumar · Post by **Ebumar** » November 2, 2003, 10:37 pm

Truthfully, I never read it. I was also drunk at the time of seeing it. Only the heading caught my eye.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » November 2, 2003, 10:56 pm

It has nothing to do with being French. It has to do with protecting your own, old values and tradition. Something Americans seem to have a problem understanding, probably because of how young the country is.

Kelshara I think the last sentence there has a lot of truth to it on a several issues. I don't think Americans really understand history or traditions untill they travel out of the country to live or for a few months visits and see what it's really all about.

As for the story posted, Jack O Laterns are not America, I think they are Irish or Scottish, can't remember but I had read about it couple of years ago. They are who brought it to America as most of any holiday that we celebrate. Think the only true American holiday is Fouth of July.

There are even Thanksgiving type holidays over seas.

Safe Travels,
Silvarel Mistmoon

Deward · Post by **Deward** » November 3, 2003, 12:16 pm

I am lucky in that my wife is as against these Hallmark holidays as I am. Anyone else completely disgusted with Sweetest day?

I went to Walmart on Saturday and they have all the Xmas stuff out already. Gets earlier and earlier every year.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 3, 2003, 1:05 pm

Feh, let people do what they want. They don't want to celebrate halloween, no biggie. I love the holiday and, especially, the time of year it falls on. I don't care for dressing up personally, but it's a pisser to see others do it.

As far as traditions and America goes, it's not just the relative youth of the country that differs, it's the number of people across all faiths and countries who become citizens. It's not as if people are flocking to become new citizens of France or anything, it's easier to maintain tradition when the populace makeup doesn't really change.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 3, 2003, 2:36 pm

It's not as if people are flocking to become new citizens of France or anything

Lol.
Are you kidding or is this just another example of a US citizen not having a clue about the outside world?

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 3, 2003, 2:53 pm

The net migration rate in the US was 3.5 per 1000 in 2000 and 3.5 per 1000 in 2002 est. In France it was .66 per 1000 in 2000 and .64 per 1000 in 2002 est. So that means that US's migration is growing at more than 5 times as fast as France's.

Care to offer that clue you're trying to give? Ohh wait, you're wrong, so you must then be talking out of your ass. Gotcha

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » November 3, 2003, 3:03 pm

Personally I'd rather have everyone migrating to France instead of the U.S.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » November 3, 2003, 4:08 pm

Halloween is an import from the british isles, it's part of a holiday created by the catholic church intended to supercede a celtic holiday.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 3, 2003, 4:09 pm

Care to offer that clue you're trying to give? Ohh wait, you're wrong, so you must then be talking out of your ass. Gotcha

I guess the european media is just making up stories about all the refugees, asylum seekers and economic migrants from the eastern bloc and poorer muslim countries coming into western europe then. Of course many of these are bypassing official migration channels so they won't show on the figures but the population pressure IS there.
Sure, the rate may not match that of the US. You say people are "not flocking". I guess we can split hairs about your choice of adjective. Chump.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 3, 2003, 4:11 pm

Halloween is an import from the british isles

Sure but trick or treating is a US invention. It's a tiny, minor day here in the UK. A little more noticable than St Swithun's day but not the major festival it's become in the US.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 3, 2003, 4:14 pm

The numbers don't lie. Much of what you speak about seems to effect Germany which has a high number, but not France, hmmm

Look at the numbers and make yourself believe whatever you want to believe as you're obviously making it up as you go along even when you're wrong. Who's the chump

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 3, 2003, 4:22 pm

The numbers don't lie. Much of what you speak about seems to effect Germany which has a high number, but not France, hmmm

Look at the numbers and make yourself believe whatever you want to believe as you're obviously making it up as you go along even when you're wrong. Who's the chump

Every rich country in western europe has the problem. Sure, Germany hasn't had to take the terrible step of banning Halloween yet.

But whatever. I'll assume when my government has a summit with the leaders of France to discuss the asylum seeker problem they're really just getting together for tea, scones and a game of petanque, as you are clearly completely correct and nobody is flocking to France, walking to France, swaggering to France or even ambling vaguely in the direction.
If I'd known up front that "flocking" only referred to population pressure of 5 per 1000 greater I'd obviously have been more circumspect in my opinion.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 3, 2003, 4:33 pm

The spin continues. You're impressing us all

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 3, 2003, 4:49 pm

What spin?

You said people are not flocking to France, clearly implying almost nobody wants to go there.

I disagreed, as I know that Western Europe has a severe problem with asylum, refugees and illegal immigrants.

Since then we've established (with your figures) that people in fact ARE heading to France, thus rendering your inference incorrect.

You will now undoubtedly deny the inference which just leaves us with the words "It's not as if people are flocking to become new citizens of France or anything" which is correct if the definition of "flocking" I provided is the one you were using.

So please, mister fucking lawyer, show me the spin. Or even better devastate me with some googled figures.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 3, 2003, 4:58 pm

-The percentage of new migrants is less than 1/5th of the US, per capita no less.

-The point that was made was that traditional values are more easily maintained when the population remains relatively consistent.

-You seem to feel that every US citizen has no clue about the outside world yet you were proven wrong by one.

-Congrats, you win the "I am a stubborn bastard that will keep fighting even though I was proven wrong" award. You presented a ton of verbage. Just stamp you're feet and splash some water on your face. You shouldn't try to put people down if you aren't sure about the truth. Obviously, this is a painful lesson for you

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 3, 2003, 5:06 pm

well france's culture seems to be changing rapidly on account of an influx of people migrating; especially from eastern europe and northern africa. the fact that another country may have a five times or ten times or a million times higher immigration rate doesn't really change that.

a lot of it is because france has been such a single culture society for such a long time and the fact that it is much smaller, an influx of people from different places can have a more profound impact on a country than one like the US or Canada which have been melting pots of different people basically since their inception.

the comment tanc is attacking is the one where you said that france's population makeup never really changes. this isn't really the case because it is changing very rapidly and into something a lot of french traditionalists don't like very much at all.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » November 3, 2003, 5:08 pm

Fair enough

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 3, 2003, 5:38 pm

kyoukan wrote:the comment tanc is attacking is the one where you said that france's population makeup never really changes. this isn't really the case because it is changing very rapidly and into something a lot of french traditionalists don't like very much at all.

Welcome to the global village.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 3, 2003, 5:39 pm

what the hell does that even mean

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 3, 2003, 5:46 pm

It means that the French traditionalists can't expct that their country is going to stay the same introverted society that it was. Like it or not, the world is changing in ways that supercede the borders of countries and infringe on the cultures of peoples. What I sense many people hate about "Americanization" is that we have no "culture" as a country, and they're afraid of losing touch with their ancestries and cultures. This isn't something that America's bringing on the rest of the world. It's a result of technology that brings people closer together.

The French can't expect that everyone in France will be French, and will speak only French, and will eat and drink and live exclusively French forever.

As a part of the world, and specifically, the "free" world, they're going to be influenced by foreign cultures and this will change their country. The time for Xenophobic Naziism is long gone. They can join the rest of progressive society.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » November 3, 2003, 5:52 pm

kyoukan wrote:what the hell does that even mean

You know like the planet is smaller now because of the internet and those new flying machines.

Ideas, traditions, beliefs of other cultures etc are now readily available for the price of an airline ticket or an internet connection, people are getting exposed, the truth is out there.

Don't simply attack people because you don't like them Kyoukan. Try using the brain we all know you have before mashing the submit key.

Cheers

/hugs Kyoukan

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 3, 2003, 5:54 pm

why are you telling me this. I'm not french.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » November 3, 2003, 6:05 pm

98% of americans (im prolly being leniant) are uncultured dumbasses who think every other country is a faciest terrorist infested shithole, and that all its residences are trying to flee and move to the almighty pinnacle of freedom, located somewhere near South Dakota
deal with it

im guessing france, spain, italy, greece and other meditarranian countrys have a larger % illigal immigrants, mostly from north african and arab countrys trying to raft or swim there way there

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 3, 2003, 6:38 pm

The legal immigration in Europe is actually not a problem. It is the illegal one that is a problem, and it is a way larger problem there than the illegal Mexican immigration is to Texas, California etc. The organized smuggling of humans that goes on is insane, it is being performed by completely ruthless people who might just as well let the container stand out in the sun until everyone dies or sink the ship as actually perform what they got paid for.

Also, when you have a way longer history of traditions it is harder to change them. USA is still just a child when it comes to this, sometimes it often seems to forget. In Norway we have traditions that go back to the viking age or before that, and people are very proud of the history and traditions. That doesn't change easily.

That said, Norway (and a lot of other European countries) have put a lid on immigration. The only thing allowed is political refugees and we get quite a few of them from Middle East, Africa etc.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 3, 2003, 6:48 pm

I don't mean to suggest that all countries abandon their traditions. Merely stop exercising xenophobic policies to try and protect something that can be kept alive by education rather than through fear of being overrun by the big evil A.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 3, 2003, 6:59 pm

The problem is, with the amount of Americanization going on, it is hard. With MTV, Hollywood and CNN kids think they are cool when they do it "the American way". Of course, what they think is American is exagerated more than anything you will ever find in the US. Which makes the whole thing pretty sad, pathetic and laughable to me.

An example would be language. Just like American English is way different from British English, and it is still being influenced a lot and probably mostly from Spanish, European languages get watered out by American words and expressions.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » November 3, 2003, 7:07 pm

You aren't going to impress it into the children, but it's not difficult for adults to be educated on the many traditions they were subjected to as children. I'd be willing to bet that instead of blaming technology and it's impacts on America (*coughJapancough*) educate adults in those countries to see the difference between popular culture and tradition.

Silvarel Mistmoon · Post by **Silvarel Mistmoon** » November 4, 2003, 12:50 am

http://la.essortment.com/originsofhallo_rcwa.htm

http://www.wilstar.net/hallown.htm

The custom of trick-or-treating is thought to have originated not with the Irish Celts, but with a ninth-century European custom called souling. On November 2, All Souls Day, early Christians would walk from village to village begging for "soul cakes," made out of square pieces of bread with currants. The more soul cakes the beggars would receive, the more prayers they would promise to say on behalf of the dead relatives of the donors. At the time, it was believed that the dead remained in limbo for a time after death, and that prayer, even by strangers, could expedite a soul's passage to heaven.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » November 4, 2003, 12:58 am

Xzion wrote:98% of americans (im prolly being leniant) are uncultured dumbasses who think every other country is a faciest terrorist infested shithole, and that all its residences are trying to flee and move to the almighty pinnacle of freedom, located somewhere near South Dakota
deal with it

I'm sure glad we're able to distinguish opinion from fact. 98%? Indeed!

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » November 4, 2003, 10:03 am

naw, just a person that thinks having a number in a post makes it carry more weight. Posting links to polls where a silly, no make that stupid, percentage like that would be too much for him.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » November 4, 2003, 10:52 am

Xzion wrote:98% of americans (im prolly being leniant) are uncultured dumbasses who think every other country is a faciest terrorist infested shithole, and that all its residences are trying to flee and move to the almighty pinnacle of freedom, located somewhere near South Dakota
deal with it

im guessing france, spain, italy, greece and other meditarranian countrys have a larger % illigal immigrants, mostly from north african and arab countrys trying to raft or swim there way there

Sorry but some of us had our cultures stripped and beat out of our forefathers when we were boated over, so excuse me for not having the rich culture that you expect me to have. Not a personal attack on you Xzion, as I understand the point that you were making, I am merely pointing to a reason for the lack of culture for some of us. Most blacks here in America are making up our culture from scratch as we go for the past 150 or so years, I mean what else can we do. All we have is the American culture, whatever that is.

As for the rest of your statements, I do not disagree.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » November 4, 2003, 11:39 am

Although I am not black, I can completely agree with you Krimson. It goes with all Americans, but the original "pilgrims" had a head start on the slaves they brought over seeing how long it took until they were "freed." In this I am referring to the segregation that ocurred until the mid 1960's and in some places beyond that. There IS no American culture which is why America is considered a "melting pot" when it comes to what is and is not American.

My family fled Germany during WWI, and from what my grandparents have told me, they caught HELL from "Americans" during WWII because of our lineage.

Take what you want from the culture around you. Decide what part(s) of that culture is "right" and go with it. For instance, the small community that my mother has a farm in is primarilly black, but on Juneteenth (look it up if you don't know the history) our party at HER house was comprised of SO many different people that it was a celebration of the freedom for everyone even moreso than July 4th. We are talking about Hispanic, Caucasion, Black, Asian, Straight and Gay. It was the coming together as friends in life that was being celebrated, and that party probably made me have the most pride in our country than any event I have ever attended. The facts of what have happened in the past were set aside, and all ate from the same table and drank from the same stock.

Some holidays have been overrated, but that is mainly because of the commercialization. I do not take part in most of them for that aspect. My family spends Christmas Eve giving gifts, but we spend Christmas day just to be together. These are just a couple examples. While there may be valid reasons for other holidays, until they can fully be "explained" there really is no reason for me to celebrate them. But that is just me. Everyone is free to look at each holiday in whatever way they want to. That is what makes America American.

Kargyle · Post by **Kargyle** » November 4, 2003, 12:00 pm

It is kind of silly to make fun of the french because they are trying to stave off Halloween when american christians are doing the exact same thing. I must have read three or four articles olast week detailing the same things going on here in the states.

Just goes to show, fundies are whack jobs no matter where you find them in the world.

Post by **Sylvus** » November 4, 2003, 1:08 pm

Every year at work we always have a big halloween celebration, with a parade of costumes and pumpkin carving and decorations and all that. Yeah, it's gay. Last year a group of people really freaked out, saying that decorating with skeletons was essentially devil-worship and talking about how offended they were by the Halloween hoopla.

The solution: this year it was the "Harvest Celebration". It was every bit as big as it was in the past, perhaps even moreso. Hell, it was exactly the same in all but name. In all of the emails they sent out and when they mentioned it at the company meetings, the organizers were super sarcastic about it, it was really awesome.

While I don't really celebrate Halloween, I'm certainly not going to get mad at someone else because they do. I think it's sort of silly people who are supposed to have so much "faith" in something can be so offended by anything challenging that. I'd think that one's faith in something would leave them content in "knowing" they were right.

VeeshanVault

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