Bush's reasoning: You need to kill em to save em

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » October 20, 2003, 8:15 pm

http://www.defenders.org/releases/pr2003/pr101703b.html

Mainly, Bush wants to charge hunters a huge amount of money allowing them to kill endagered animals around the world. He would then try to save those very same species by using the funds collected.

I wonder how he would feel if people started shooting the American eagle for sport?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 20, 2003, 8:17 pm

what the hell is an american eagle?

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » October 20, 2003, 9:43 pm

some big bird with white hair, we put him on lots of stuff, kids seem to like it

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » October 20, 2003, 9:51 pm

Not a new concept, it has been used before with some success (probably still is, sounds like the proposal is just regarding our importation law piece of it).

http://reason.com/9710/fe.hess.shtml

Interesting article about it. Its from a few years back.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 20, 2003, 9:58 pm

Sionistic wrote:some big bird with white hair, we put him on lots of stuff, kids seem to like it

so it's like a bald eagle?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 20, 2003, 10:02 pm

Yup, Bald Eagle.

Wonder what the hell they actually TEACH in school these days.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » October 20, 2003, 11:02 pm

The bald eagle has always been noticed(by americans atleast), as a symbol of america, so a lot of people call them american eagles

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » October 20, 2003, 11:52 pm

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » October 21, 2003, 4:55 am

I didnt care to read the entire report I think I understand the issue just from your comment.....but Im assuming its similar to a concept used on many endangered animals that arent at a critical lvl yet.

Tell me if Im wrong thats fine if its not what Im assuming.

Im assuming since Bush is a major supporter of hunting and conservation he is using a similar concept used with the AFRICAN ELEPHANT which Ill use for example(since everyone knows how they were very endangered not long ago, and now ya dont hear to much about it). Now it is over populated in many areas.

...In Zimbabwe they restarted elephant big game hunting before many of the other countries did in turn this brought in money the gov't didnt have through the sities(sp) permits....this money had to be spent in certain areas for countries like america to open up the trafficing of these skins to the US and other countries, and then Zimbabwe would gain valuble tourist dollars.

This money in turn would go into the building of national parks.

This money also in turn would pay the villagers and would setup food supply areas for them so there food wouldnt spoil so fast. This in turn would keep the villager from killing all the animals that ate or destroyed his crops because he was reimbursed....Look at it in the villagers perspective...he has to have those crops or his family dies of starvation, so theyll become poachers kill many animals and sell there tusk/bones or skins ect(more they kill the better)..This money and services gives the animal a long term value and value if it is not killed....so the villager in turn does not kill the animal except a limited regulated amount for food..

This money also in turn would fund anti-poaching crews....One time we ran across some poacher tracks while doing some safari photography there...we sent in a call from the bush to some game scouts(anti poachers) payed for (the big game hunters) that tracked these guys down and killed 7-10 poachers with 6 BLACK RHINO horns....considering there was appox 100-300 black rhinos in the country at the time it was extremely major tragedity what the one group of poachers did. 1% of the black rhino pop dead.

This program was so sucessful that now the Elephant population is thriving in Zimbabwe and they have to call(instant mass kill) 500+ elephants at a time...because to many and they destroy the forest in areas. THIS also floods the market with ivory which in turn decreases the value of poachers in other countries killing whole heards of elephant for ivory.

Botswanna and many other countries have seen this work and have started it...and its exploding the elephant populations...TOO much even in areas...Like the Chobe in northern botswanna(which use to be one of the most beutiful places on this earth) is now totally a dried up desert....the area is suppose to hold about 30,000 to 50,000 elephants...but the WAKO! environmentalist (Who dont live there or never been there or dont think logical about it) stopped the hunter/calling in that region....now there are 200,000+ elephant there and the Chobe is basically no more, including all the other animals that were part of that environment and there is mass extinction in the area.

Many of the strongest environmentalist(THAT WORK IN AFRICA) and consevationalist have aknowledged that big game hunting maybe the only thing that can save many species, because mainly the villager reasoning and the money its brings that I stated above.

On a personal LVL when you dont see me on EQ for a long while its because one of my jobs on the side is a International Photographer and mainly of culture and wildlife...Im personally a conservationalist and have worked with some others like in Phinda national park and Sabi Sabi in South Africa. I do hunt some, I shot a wilderbeast and a few impala and kudu a few trips back to feed a village in Zimbabwe that was starving before, but I am a conservationist first. One of my personal idols was one of the greatest consevationalist and environmentalist and was the biggest big game hunter of em all....Teddy Roosevelt.

Sorry typing so much about this issue its very close to my Heart so I guess I just like to ramble abit about it, but I HATE seeing issues like this used to sway opinions for political puposes either way(Many animal populations are on the ropes and its way too important of an issue to politic about)...I like to see the LOGIC out there and why. I have noticed hunting maybe the only solution to save many of these endagered species...(IT MUST BE VERY REGULATED)...I when hunters hunt in many of the southern regions of africa they have a gov't game scout follow them around the entire time to makesure they dont take out anything they shouldnt be...and also to watchout for poachers because theyll track em down and kill them(just as a poacher does to you if they seeya) asap. Got a ton of stories and never forgetting memories about that area.

I understand the thought it just doesnt make since to kill and animal to save it, but it does if you look at the money it brings the local areas so they dont wipe out that animal...They have to have there cattle or crops to survive, OR they can take a loss on some of em, and have hunters go in and bring in the money/food/shelter/better living for them...Then there happy to take the loss, and then the animal is shot only to a permitted lvl and then its population in the region will increase.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 21, 2003, 8:59 am

Sirton, please try to refrain from confusing the posters here with things like personal experiences and facts. It only causes major pains in the heads of the whining pansies who think hamburgers are grown on bushes.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 21, 2003, 9:23 am

Fuck me what a crock of steaming horseshit this whole idea is.

If there's such a need to preserve these species then it behooves us to find the money from somewhere to protect them. Sorting out the corrupt governments looking after the natural habitats of so many of these species occupy.

But basically raise the money ANY other way than killing the fucking animals you want to protect. That's just too retarded for words. You can add all the riders and flimsily worded "guarantees" you like and it won't make a damn bit of difference. If there's any kind of "legitemate" trade then the illegitemate trade will flourish. The only way to protect these species to to TOTALLY BAN trafficking in their products and come down hard on anyone who tries to sell the stuff.

However this will mean passing up an opportunity to (a) make a quick buck or two and (b) shoot stuff with guns. So I expect a certain portion of the community here to come up with lots of interesting reasons why it should be allowed.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » October 21, 2003, 9:35 am

Creating a legitimate market without tight controls and verification makes it very easy to create a gray market encouraging poaching with the lower risk of selling items.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » October 21, 2003, 10:40 am

Translation:

Sirton: It works! I've seen it work personally.

Tanc: Does not! It violates my perception of human nature.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » October 21, 2003, 10:40 am

You were of course aware that exactly the same approach has been used in the United States not only to preserve but expand threatened animal populations?

Try a litle research before you lock-step.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 21, 2003, 11:12 am

lalalalalalalalallalalallalallalala won't listen to facts lalalalalalalalalalalal

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » October 21, 2003, 11:52 am

How about not building the next couple of million dollar bombs or billion dollar jets and put the money towards endangered species, education, and cleaning up the environment?

Just a thought.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 21, 2003, 11:56 am

lol this reminds me of his "strategery" of saving our forests. We gotta clear cut to save them!

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » October 21, 2003, 12:06 pm

Or better yet, waco

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 21, 2003, 12:18 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:How about not building the next couple of million dollar bombs or billion dollar jets and put the money towards endangered species, education, and cleaning up the environment?

Just a thought.

Better add unemployment payouts to that list

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 21, 2003, 12:25 pm

I think Sirton's "self experience facts" took a hit with his personal knowledge of the White House. Anyway, some interesting points there and I need to do some research on it because ie peeked my curiosity. I watch Animal Planet quite a bit, and this summer while back home they sent a series following the lives of big cats (think it is sent here as well.. Big Cat Diary? Been a couple of seasons of it). Anyway, during that (and it was filmed by some highly respected people) they mentioned several times that poachers still are a huge problem and there are far from enough park rangers to keep track of them.

But as I said, you peeked my curiosity about this so I'll have to do some reading

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » October 21, 2003, 12:35 pm

Gray (or black) markets for animal parts will only exist as long as those parts are rare. Get the animal population back up and both legitimate and illegitimate trade in such items will devalue the items themselves to the point where poaching isn't profitable.

The solution is to get those populations up, not waste time chasing after poachers.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » October 21, 2003, 12:43 pm

Look at it in this view point of many in Africa:

Im a villager who has little education...all I know is my family and that they are starving...I try and grow some crops, but some herd of elephant keep stomping through it and eatting it all. Then the antelope eat everything else up. The crops are lost yet again.

My few cows I had the local lion pride has killed. The leapord killed a few of my goats. I dont have anymore money to buy more at the next village that will take me days to bring em here. The monkeys are eatting any fruits and its a dry season again....Do we starve? I hear that if I kill these elephant(antelope) and take there tusk(horns)(skins) that I can get some money and then I can goto the nearest town and buy grain and make grits my children wont starve then. I also can have the meat from them for a short time....Ill be able to cut its liver/stomach out and carry it back with the tusk or horns maybe make abit of boatong(jerky)...the rest goes to waist to vultures hyenas and lion and rot.

Or you can genocide the people to save the animals.

>>>>Or you can spend countless amounts of money...Billions apon billions more like trillions or zillions! for proper education, to build them a better economy, how to properly protect there food supplies...to bring electricity to all of em. Keep the natives around the Congo from eating the pigmys. Maybe stop the hutus from chopping the legs off the other tribe. Or militarily taking out most the govts there and installing environmentally friendly ones. Put money into stopping the gangs popping up in Jo Berg with AK-47s destroying a once great city. Or take out Kadafi libya and like leaders because he sent gunships over libya and completely wiped out the scimitar horned oryx and the addax in order to make the nomadic tribes dependant on him because they would starve with there food source destroyed...now the only populations of these animals exist in TX. Hey maybe we can declare war on china and many other countries and threaten them saying you stop illegal marketing of your animal medicinal parts or else!!! As they say ok and get it rhough black market.

And at the sametime EVEN richest country the USA is having trouble with poverty in its own inner cities....This option of throwing money at it is only a pipe dream(THERE IS NOT ENOUGH MONEY in the immediate future or when it matters) and with my example before in the CHOBE....the Environmental wakos! tried it and it destroyed the entire environment of a region..because of over population of elephant got so great after the hunting programs restored a viable population. The Wakos! in the US put hvy pressure on the botswanna govt to ban it totaly from that region and now a once great area is all but elephant tracks and bones...The wakos have good intentions but there actually hurting more in many areas than they are helping...BECAUSE they have no clue how life works there..They are ill educated on the TOPIC and answer with only EMOTIONS...or they dont understand what it means to really see your family starving...to see your child rot before your eyes. desperate times=desperate measures.

Me Ill take the hunter bringing in the cash to the areas...and there money helping establish national parks and there money giving jobs to trackers, skinners, guides, gov't in regulation, and most important Anti-poachers, or the generators needed in these villages to keep ice boxes available so food can be stored....there money goes right to the heart of the source of the major threat...As long as is smartly regulated there is really NO better solution. Then the tourist come in and then you can use that money to take over some of the money that came in from hunting....But the hunter is on the front line.

A hunter wants there children and great grand children to enjoy the same experiences as they had and see the same beuty. You may think its crazy, but ITS PROVEN to be the best fight against extinction for many animals that are endangered but not at critical lvls. Make a value to the local people to KEEP those animals alive....Theyll makesure themselves they will not be poached...Theyll get more from there gov't and the hunter than they will from poaching, you make the poacher there enemy you make them then love the animals.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 21, 2003, 12:43 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Gray (or black) markets for animal parts will only exist as long as those parts are rare. Get the animal population back up and both legitimate and illegitimate trade in such items will devalue the items themselves to the point where poaching isn't profitable.

The solution is to get those populations up, not waste time chasing after poachers.

Do you really think the demand will be satiated? Can you think of anytime throughout history when the demand for this stuff was low because there was such a high supply? I didn't think so.

EDIT: Oh and by that same logic, we should go ahead, and legalize all drugs.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 21, 2003, 12:44 pm

You were of course aware that exactly the same approach has been used in the United States not only to preserve but expand threatened animal populations?

On animals with only 300 breeding stock remaining?
On animals with a widespread and nigh uncontrollable poaching problem?
On animals whose products are worth a fortune on international markets? And that live in areas of extreme human poverty where any financial reward for poaching makes it worthwhile?

We're not talking about general conservation, managing populations or any of that shit. This is about creatures on the brink of extinction.
It might have made a difference in whatever instances you are citing but that's YOUR government managing YOUR resources. This is a case of your government allowing trade in rare creatures and leaving the conservation and regulation aspects in the (very loose) control of other nations and governments. I'm not discounting anyone's personal experiences. I'm just questioning their applicability in this case.

That's how I see it. I'm prefectly willing to accept that I'm not an expert on this particular subject so feel free to educate me why this particular scheme will work, especially in light of my reservations above.

PS: I typed this up a while ago then VV crapped out and I've been unable to reconnect.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » October 21, 2003, 12:46 pm

the main problem isnt the poachers its the local people...that do poaching activitys. thus hunters bring in money and dec. the need for the villagers the need to wipe out the animal.

Thus thats why where you do have elephant hunting..the elephant population has sky rocketed...and then the gov't calls the elephant and then floods the market decreasing the value of ivory and making the profit of ivory trade not worth it.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 21, 2003, 12:52 pm

the main problem isnt the poachers its the local people...that do poaching activitys

Sure. However when I say "poacher" i mean "anyone who poaches" whether they're a professional poacher or someone forced into it by circumstance.

All I'm suggesting is that we do away with this pressure by means OTHER than killing the animals. We're talking a relative pittance here. Not billions a year, every year, but a few million here and there will go a long way.
Find it some other place.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » October 21, 2003, 12:54 pm

Can you think of anytime throughout history when the demand for this stuff was low because there was such a high supply?

Yep. Take a peek back at the market for deerskin in the 20's and today for an example.

Tanc,

Do you have any idea how far back the whitetail deer population has been brought using exactly this same approach?

The wild turkey in the Midwest United States?

Quail?

Hell, funds from the sale of hunting liscenses fund the majority of the habitat preservation keeping around bear, mountain lion and a whole host of others. Stone sheep in Colorado are another recent example.

You will never, ever eliminate the killing of nuisance animals by farmers of any stripe. Even if those tusks weren't worth the local equivalent of a quarter, a farmer is still going to shoot that elephant trampling his crops, that lion killing his livestock, that prarie dog holing his pasture.

What you can eliminate is the trade that makes parts of such animals so valuable.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » October 21, 2003, 12:57 pm

On animals with only 300 breeding stock remaining? But Im sure this isnt the case, but again if it isnt watched it would happen...im sure this is a ploy to pull at ones heart.

but anyways YOU DONT TOUCH THESE ANIMALS IN NO WAY....Like with the black rhino with a population similar to this you stated....use money say that has been brought in from elephant hunting and protect them aswell....You also do what I did this summer and actually go out there and you dart rhinos and put transmitters in them to keep tabs on there population to help ensure there survival...You also need to try and find controlable areas...for example in TX many endangered animals have been brought in order to keep the species alive while they try and deal with the uncontrolable problems in some areas of africa. In all honesty I think the black rhinos population has gotten to low and it will become extinct because you cant flood the market like with the elephant(with a viable population) and ivory

Also just a note some animals are put on endangered species list cause they are very pretty animals...example leapord..theres much more leapord than lion and cheetah combined...or giraffe...I see giraffe all over the place. Or elephant there endangered in some areas...exspecially were there is no hunting prohibited, but then there way over populated in others. Just something to ponder about.

The most money going into protecting animals in africa are from hunters. Also Arica is abit diff then america cause you dont have people starving to death on a mass scale..this makes the strain even more on the animal populations...And I used the elephant as a perfect example of how this can be done on a animal on the brink. Talk to the conservationalist that live there life in africa and theyll admit hunters are the only reason some animals have survived...they brought the money in to keep the peeps from spreading to major areas of wildlife...one of the major battlegrounds atm is the oklavonga swamp in Botswanna...the cattle hearding is destroying the area but the hunters money in the area has made there gov't make parks and has been trying to keep the expansion of the cattle herders out.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 21, 2003, 1:21 pm

Fallanthas wrote:
Can you think of anytime throughout history when the demand for this stuff was low because there was such a high supply?

Yep. Take a peek back at the market for deerskin in the 20's and today for an example.

Tanc,

Do you have any idea how far back the whitetail deer population has been brought using exactly this same approach?

The wild turkey in the Midwest United States?

Quail?

Hell, funds from the sale of hunting liscenses fund the majority of the habitat preservation keeping around bear, mountain lion and a whole host of others. Stone sheep in Colorado are another recent example.

You will never, ever eliminate the killing of nuisance animals by farmers of any stripe. Even if those tusks weren't worth the local equivalent of a quarter, a farmer is still going to shoot that elephant trampling his crops, that lion killing his livestock, that prarie dog holing his pasture.

What you can eliminate is the trade that makes parts of such animals so valuable.

Well I was not really talking about North American game, but exotic animals.
You really cannot compare the two...the black market demand for items from endangered animals in Africa is on a whole other level of that of Deer & sheep skins.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » October 21, 2003, 1:25 pm

Fuck, I'd pay a hunter some extra cash if he rammed a shotgun up Bush's ass....retards can easily be made into an endangered species

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » October 21, 2003, 1:26 pm

And why is that?

Because there are now enough of those North American game animals that the idea of poaching for profit is 'almost' completely out of the picture.

Believe me, that was not the case fifty to eighty years ago. Those same species were hunted almost to extinction in order to supply various pieces to the marketplace. And as they always will, the price of the items went up as the supply dwindled.

About five years ago I spent some time hunting in Texas. Did you know there are now more 'exotic' species on game ranches in Texas than in the wild in Africa? Gee, I wonder why that is.....

Fizzlewhip · Post by **Fizzlewhip** » October 21, 2003, 1:27 pm

As an example of non-hunting (?) animal protection that has worked (and almost backfired).

Sea-lion population along the California Coast. Apparently, preservation has worked a bit too well. The population of Sea-lions in the Monterey area has gone from 150, to well over 5000. They now endanger fishing grounds, are agressive, and pose a health risk with thier feces.

Additionally, the Bald Eagle population has grown with almost 70K in Alaska, and another 20k in Canada. The government is considering taking the bald eagle off of the endangered species list, but have yet to work out a plan to ensure that they do not slip back on to it.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » October 21, 2003, 1:35 pm

Another very good example of that is the mountain lion in the western US. Black bear are also becoming a problem in the Pacific Northwest, as the idiotic cancellation of spring hunts has caused their population to rise.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 21, 2003, 1:39 pm

Good luck getting Greenpeace etc along on this when it comes to whaling!

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 21, 2003, 1:43 pm

Whitetail deer are extremely common throughout their ranges and are the most numerous of the large North American mammals. Precise estimates of their numbers have not been made, but there are probably somewhere between 8 and 15 million on this continent. Although their populations were decimated to the point of extinction in many areas at the turn of the century (due to overhunting), they have recently reached their highest numbers due to the improvement of their habitat by the cutting of climax forests, providing them with a greater amount of brush and shrubs on which to forage.

I was looking for figures that I saw the other day on the amount of money paid in fees and spent for conservation by hunters, but can't find it. Suffice it to say that it is in the billions nationally and goes a long way towards building habitats and helping the animals rebound from past problems with what the humans have done.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » October 21, 2003, 1:44 pm

Pardon me if I don't take seriously a group of people trying to save whales by running around in a tin can leaking oil into the ocean....

Here are a few links to what you are looking for, Killmoll.

http://www.sportsmenslink.org/Sportman/hunters.html

http://www.nssf.org/education/hunter_co ... ntcon4.htm

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » October 21, 2003, 1:47 pm

Just something to think about is you CANNOT compare wildlife protection in the non hunting form between africa and america.... Even national parks there get plagued with poaching....Ive seen herds of dead elephant including the babies wiped out with just the tusk stripped in parks.. The poverty there is ALSO REAL...National parks is a great first step Which people like Teddy Roosevelt made many of(the hunters).

For anyone intrested How that works in Africa is they setup a national park...then on the out scurts they set up hunting zones with strict limits to make there a buffer between the wildlife and the natives...this gives the animals some sort of protection with things i stated above......One concept I got too see the consevationalist and hunters working on is combining many national parks along the migration trails....Im talking about from SOuth Africa<<<Phinda(Ghetti(sp) family) and kreuger national park through botswanna and zambia and zimbabwe...then surround it with hunting concessions for the buffer to keep the people from spreading into the national parks and destroying there habitat and the reverse. the hunters bring the value to the locals so they avoid killing off the animals as much...The hunters money brings in the cash to keep the park going. and to increase the anti-poacher armies..and then this bring in tourism from wildlife viewers and then there becomes some hope.....But you must never stop the hunting because you have to regulate the populations. And ya must keep a buffer between the parks and the people..or also like what I stated about the CHOBE will happen in many areas over population of animals per area.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » October 21, 2003, 1:52 pm

One other reason the proposed approach works so well is that defining a season and liscense mobilizes the legitimate hunters AGAINST poachers and habitat destruction.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 21, 2003, 2:07 pm

Fallanthas wrote:Pardon me if I don't take seriously a group of people trying to save whales by running around in a tin can leaking oil into the ocean....

Oh man....you've got to kidding me. That's the most asinine statement I have heard for a good while!

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » October 21, 2003, 2:31 pm

You dont read any of your posts then?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 21, 2003, 2:35 pm

I understand perfectly well why you don't take Greenpeace seriously heh.. but not for the reason listed

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » October 21, 2003, 4:05 pm

kyoukan wrote:what the hell is an american eagle?

a shitty clothing company which knocks off anything and everything from Abercrombie and Fitch.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 22, 2003, 3:09 am

Zamtuk wrote:
kyoukan wrote:what the hell is an american eagle?
a shitty clothing company which knocks off anything and everything from Abercrombie and Fitch.

who also happens to be a shitty clothing company

AND THE CYCLE CONTINUES!

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 22, 2003, 8:54 am

That was what I was looking for..thanks Fallanthas