Homosexuality Genetic...

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » October 20, 2003, 4:36 pm

This topic has been ground into the ground so many times I didn't know whether to post of not but thought perhaps we could find something new in the article...

http://us.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/20/sex ... index.html

Cheers!
Marb

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » October 20, 2003, 4:40 pm

Hmm, can I call Fesuni a mutant yet?

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » October 20, 2003, 5:28 pm

Neither that article nor the study on which it was reporting has anything to do with sexual orientation.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » October 20, 2003, 5:51 pm

No but that is the implication is it not?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 20, 2003, 5:53 pm

actually it has everything to do with sexual orientation. maybe you clicked the wrong link?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 20, 2003, 6:07 pm

gender identity and homosexuality are not the same thing.

at least if they are, we don't know enough about the brain to say as much.

what i would say this article is about is people who are born with gender ambiguity (malformed external genetalia), but a properly gender assigned brain.

the baby is either male or female. i have never heard there is any suggestion of a gender neutral person. Now because somebody's genitals don't develope properly does not mean they are gender neutral. it just means their genitals didnt form properly, just as if somebody is born with a short left leg, their leg didnt develope properly.

what this study may suggest that relates to homosexuality is that it is possible that a genetically male person may have some mixture of brain characteristics that are particularly indicitive of one gender or the other.

Gay guys are obviously still guys, they have the sexual appetites of men, not women, and they often are otherwise pretty much 'normal guys' in terms of behavior. Some certainly act like women - and i dont know why that is - but that may be in part a social affiliation thing, and not so much of a genetic thing. but it could indeed be that "effeminate homosexual men" have a greater degree of brain similarity with females than heterosexual men do (in the particular brain structures of interest).

so in my opinion this leads to more questions than answers.

And honestly, genes in mice that code for brain structures may not really translate significantly to humans. Certainly i think if you are talking about cellular mechanics and the molecular underpinnings in the brain, studies on rodents can be great.

I think it takes a larger leap when you are discussing the organization of cortical structures and higher brain anatomy, which these mice simply do not have in common with humans.

but as always, news articles really have a hard time accurately representing what the authors of a study really found.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » October 20, 2003, 6:12 pm

No the reporter just was not very precise. He made his own implications which are completely absent in teh study or in anything Dr. Vilain (great name

) discusses. Go read the abstract directly from from the UCLA site. Sex detmermination has nothing to do with sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is not discussed in the study nor by the researcher. The study has everything to do with what make someone Male or Female but nothing about what makes a Male or Female have sexual predilictions towards females as opposed to males.

you can see this even from the article itself. Here is what the reporter says:

"Sexual identity is wired into the genes, which discounts the concept that homosexuality and transgender sexuality are a choice, California researchers reported on Monday."

His addition of homosexuality is simply his own reading into things, however. I hope out of ignorance, but most likely out of political slant.

Here is what he quotes Vilain -

"Our findings may help answer an important question -- why do we feel male or female?" Dr. Eric Vilain, a genetics professor at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine, said in a statement. "Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome."

Feeling Male or Female has to do with sex, not sexual orientation. Gay men do not feel female. Lesbians do not feel male (well, certain individuals may, but it is not what it means to be gay).

Likewise, here is some stuff from the abstract -

"Sex determination orients development toward sexually dimorphic individuals, male or female. ... We have discovered new molecular and cellular mechanisms of sex determination during fetal development. ... Finally, we are testing the hypothesis that there may be genetic influences on behavioral differences between males and females, in addition to the direct influence of sex steroids."

There is nothing in his study, either directly or implied, that has to do with homosexuality.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 20, 2003, 6:38 pm

I think the correlation between your gender identity and sexual orientation are probably fairly related.

Ebumar · Post by **Ebumar** » October 20, 2003, 7:40 pm

My understanding of all this is there are three hormone "baths" when in the womb. First one tells your body, "male/female". Second one tells your mind, "male/female". Third one tells mind, "male/female love". And these can all be different.

Example:

Male + Male + Male = Gay.

Male + Female + Male = Transgenderism, or crossdressing and gay.

Male + Female + Female = Less Crossdressing, because its soccialy unnacceptable, but you still "feel" female, but you still are attracted to women.

There are variations ofcourse. And you can do the math and figure it out. This I learned in my human sexuality course I took last semester. We had speakers on it, and doctors and all kinds of people talking about this. I don't know if it is true, but it sounds more true than not.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » October 20, 2003, 8:01 pm

kyoukan wrote:I think the correlation between your gender identity and sexual orientation are probably fairly related.

I think you're right, but the science isn't out there to prove it yet.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 20, 2003, 8:16 pm

but isn't that what the article writer and the researcher dood is hypothesizing?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 20, 2003, 8:17 pm

You can learn to be gay:

Recruiter: Now, are either of you homosexuals?
John Winger: You mean like flaming? Or part time?
Recruiter: Well, it's a question we have to ask of all our new recruits.
Russell Ziskey: No, we're not homosexual, but we are willing to learn!

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » October 20, 2003, 8:31 pm

Stripes

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » October 20, 2003, 9:12 pm

but isn't that what the article writer and the researcher dood is hypothesizing?

No. It is what the article writer, most likely for political reasons, wants to be the case. So he is perverting what the researcher is saying with his research. The research (I keep refering you to the UCLA site that hosts it) says absolutly nothing about sexual orientation. You can get the professor phone number and email off of UCLA's site too. Feel free to email him and ask. It is obvious to me from his work what his answer will be.

As to the more generic assertion,

I think the correlation between your gender identity and sexual orientation are probably fairly related

I am not sure what to say. I know my sexual orientation has nothing to do with my gender identity. I can say the same for almost every gay man I have known as well. I am sure the breaders here know best, though.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 20, 2003, 9:49 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:No. It is what the article writer, most likely for political reasons, wants to be the case. So he is perverting what the researcher is saying with his research. The research (I keep refering you to the UCLA site that hosts it) says absolutly nothing about sexual orientation.

UCLA has a pretty big website.

I am not sure what to say. I know my sexual orientation has nothing to do with my gender identity. I can say the same for almost every gay man I have known as well.

Yeah well it does. It says so right here on the internet. Check it out.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 20, 2003, 10:01 pm

/sarcasm on
Yeah, it's true if it's on the net!
/sarcasm off

I don't think that it's something learned. I think it's something that just "is." The big question used to just be nature or nurture. Was the being born to be that way, or was it taught to be that way. This is also the center of the argument vs gay adoption which I think is bullshit (the argument that is) as I grew up with 2 gay parents. Not two women or two men. Both of my parents are gay. The only thing that it did to/for me is to help open my mind to see that differences are present everywhere. To me, it is just like arguing about one race being able to raise a child of their own race better than any other. Hell, our race is human. We are all just different variants of it.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » October 20, 2003, 10:27 pm

we need a sarcasm code something like

Code: Select all

[sar]I know how to suck a ball through a hose[/sar]

masteen · Post by **masteen** » October 21, 2003, 8:14 am

Sionistic wrote:I know how to suck a ball through a hose

Wanna cyb0r?

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » October 21, 2003, 9:14 am

masteen wrote:
Sionistic wrote:I know how to suck a ball through a hose
Wanna cyb0r?

Can he suck a golfball through cat5 would be the question in that case

Tegellan · Post by **Tegellan** » October 21, 2003, 9:34 am

sucking a golfball through cat5 would be downright scary!

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » October 21, 2003, 1:21 pm

you too Dregor

As for the topic however...Although I'm sure many don't want to here my opinion, here it is anyway: Homosexuality is genetic, I've always believed that and will always believe that - it has yet to be proven but I think the choice between leading a homosexual, bi-sexual, heterosexual life all comes down to having different genes. The homosexual gene, I believe, is recessive (sp?) which would account for why homosexuals are not the dominant population among males nor females. The reason I believe this so staunchly is because a lot of my queer and/or bi-sexual friends have had gay and/or bi-curious fathers and mothers. My own father was a gay man, one who was forced to stay in the closet until a year or so after I was born. The point is, I share the belief that homosexuality and sexuality in general is defined by genetics, BUT that does not mean it is not a choice...just because one is born with a short leg, does not mean he/she will never walk - one may be born with a dominante homosexual gene, but that does not necessarily mean he/she is gay - just means they will always have a sense of style!

Or...I can offer you this alternative. What is sexuality? Why do we define it as being straight or gay or a lesbian or bi? How do you all know that if it came down to the wire or you were completely drunk that you in fact would not make out or have sex with someone of the same sex? Although I do believe seriously that homosexuality is genetic, I also hold the idea that in reality - no one is 100% homosexual and no one is 100% heterosexual...we're all just sexual. I am as straight as some of you are gay. Sexuality is a huge topic but to get to the point: I think we, deep down and in the end, are attracted to everyone - a gay man would have sex with a woman if he had to or had the desire to, just as a straight man would have sex with a man if he had to or had the desire to. But that's just a theory - I could be wrong

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » October 21, 2003, 2:35 pm

Or you grew up with a gay father and adapted to his ways? Its a choice, not a homeing becon to the penis.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » October 21, 2003, 2:46 pm

Fesuni Chopsui wrote: you too Dregor

As for the topic however...Although I'm sure many don't want to here my opinion, here it is anyway: Homosexuality is genetic, I've always believed that and will always believe that - it has yet to be proven but I think the choice between leading a homosexual, bi-sexual, heterosexual life all comes down to having different genes. The homosexual gene, I believe, is recessive (sp?) which would account for why homosexuals are not the dominant population among males nor females. The reason I believe this so staunchly is because a lot of my queer and/or bi-sexual friends have had gay and/or bi-curious fathers and mothers. My own father was a gay man, one who was forced to stay in the closet until a year or so after I was born.

Fes by your own statement another conclusion can be drawn that you are a product of your environment. Perhaps your father exhibited some gay nuances or characteristics, the same as the other examples you cited. These characteristics could have had a large influence in the choice that you made to be gay. Hence homosexuality could and in my book most likely is a case of learned preferences as opposed to genetic.

But what the hell is the difference, it seems to me a lot of homosexuals would like to find/believe that it is genetic so they have an excuse? for being gay.

If you are gay or straight it doesn't matter really does it? If it is by choice or by genetics what difference will it make.

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » October 21, 2003, 2:53 pm

Atokal wrote:
Fesuni Chopsui wrote: you too Dregor

As for the topic however...Although I'm sure many don't want to here my opinion, here it is anyway: Homosexuality is genetic, I've always believed that and will always believe that - it has yet to be proven but I think the choice between leading a homosexual, bi-sexual, heterosexual life all comes down to having different genes. The homosexual gene, I believe, is recessive (sp?) which would account for why homosexuals are not the dominant population among males nor females. The reason I believe this so staunchly is because a lot of my queer and/or bi-sexual friends have had gay and/or bi-curious fathers and mothers. My own father was a gay man, one who was forced to stay in the closet until a year or so after I was born.
Fes by your own statement another conclusion can be drawn that you are a product of your environment. Perhaps your father exhibited some gay nuances or characteristics, the same as the other examples you cited. These characteristics could have had a large influence in the choice that you made to be gay. Hence homosexuality could and in my book most likely is a case of learned preferences as opposed to genetic.

But what the hell is the difference, it seems to me a lot of homosexuals would like to find/believe that it is genetic so they have an excuse? for being gay.

If you are gay or straight it doesn't matter really does it? If it is by choice or by genetics what difference will it make.

Actually I left out a bit of information that I guess led folks to assume something...

When my father came out my mother left him and I never saw him again (that was at the age of 1) - so my father was never an influence on me ever...I had never met another gay man except myself until my senior year in high school and I did not know my father was gay until my senior year in high school - he died of AIDS in 1998....he had 0 influence on my lif....so Raistin: nope, I never grew up with a gay father nor a father period and Toker: nope, because it was never a part of my environment in any way, shape, or form

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 21, 2003, 3:31 pm

Fesuni Chopsui wrote:and I did not know my father was gay until my senior year in high school - he died of AIDS in 1998.

Yeah, and happy Tuesday to you as well

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » October 21, 2003, 4:16 pm

I do think that homo/heterosexuality is genetic, but then where do all the fucked up "bucks, who like to fuck" and dolphinsex.org that enjoy having sex with dead people and animals and children etc get that from?
but then again, every thing could be just a matter of preferance, or being a product to an envornment

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 21, 2003, 4:29 pm

Xzion wrote:I do think that homo/heterosexuality is genetic, but then where do all the fucked up "bucks, who like to fuck" and dolphinsex.org that enjoy having sex with dead people and animals and children etc get that from?
but then again, every thing could be just a matter of preferance, or being a product to an envornment

Everything is genetic. Nothing is your fault. Whatever you do in life, don't worry about it.

It's genetic baby!

That's the new "wasn't me" or "I didn't know" catch phrase for the 21st century!

Mak · Post by **Mak** » October 21, 2003, 6:11 pm

I ask this question out of ignorance/curiosity and not malice:

Wouldn't homosexuality, if it were genetic, by it's very nature have died out a long time ago due to simple Darwinian natural selection? I know there are cases like Fesuni's dad, where he managed to procreate before "becoming" gay, but is there really enough examples of that scenario to keep that gene in the pool?

Fesuni Chopsui · Post by **Fesuni Chopsui** » October 21, 2003, 6:19 pm

Mak wrote:I ask this question out of ignorance/curiosity and not malice:

Wouldn't homosexuality, if it were genetic, by it's very nature have died out a long time ago due to simple Darwinian natural selection? I know there are cases like Fesuni's dad, where he managed to procreate before "becoming" gay, but is there really enough examples of that scenario to keep that gene in the pool?

Well going by the theory that the homosexual gene is recessive - that isn't really the case...if it is recessive that means it is dominant in a few and non-dominant in many (I could be wrong, correct me Biology majors out there!)...which then in turn would translate into: you may have the big bad gay gene and you just may not be aware of it since it is not dominant in you, which means you are not attracted to men...and hence when you have children that gene will be passed on, and whether or not they are gay will depend on if your wife had the gene as well - in which case some of your children would have it as a dominant gene etc

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » October 21, 2003, 6:35 pm

Just think of all the lawsuits that could spring up from kids being mad at their parents for "making" them gay. And before you blow it off, think of some of the other far-fetched stuff that happens in courtrooms...

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » October 21, 2003, 8:22 pm

Maybe the homo gene is currenty thriving due to the drastic overpopulation of the planet? Darwin indeed. Just a quick thought!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 21, 2003, 8:52 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:Maybe the homo gene is currenty thriving due to the drastic overpopulation of the planet? Darwin indeed. Just a quick thought!

Fesuni is trying to save our planet!

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » October 21, 2003, 9:17 pm

As I said before I think the genetics part is a continum. Some gay people could probably no more be straight than some straight people could be gay. However I think this is each end of the spectrum. I think a lot of people have tendencies both ways, the choices and their environment make them what they are... nothing is EVER all Nature or all Nurture, it's always both. Guess it would be nice though it what Winnow said was true and we weren't responsible for anything... WHEEEEEEE!

Marb

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 21, 2003, 9:22 pm

Winnow wrote:Everything is genetic. Nothing is your fault. Whatever you do in life, don't worry about it.

It's genetic baby!

That's the new "wasn't me" or "I didn't know" catch phrase for the 21st century!

what's your explanation then? people just wake up one morning and decide to disregard millions of years of conditioning in regards to male/female mating rituals and become gay?

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » October 22, 2003, 10:00 am

Raistin wrote:Or you grew up with a gay father and adapted to his ways? Its a choice, not a homeing becon to the penis.

Sorry bro, but I can't imagine any regular straight dude thinking, "You know what? I think I want a big phat juicy cack packing my fudge!" and then decide to become gay.

You could have 100 parents tell their sons "Cack is good! You love teh cack!" from the time they are small until they hit puberty and you'll still have a normal distribution of gays in that group.

Gurugurumaki · Post by **Gurugurumaki** » October 22, 2003, 10:33 am

Kelgar wrote:
Raistin wrote:Or you grew up with a gay father and adapted to his ways? Its a choice, not a homeing becon to the penis.
Sorry bro, but I can't imagine any regular straight dude thinking, "You know what? I think I want a big phat juicy cack packing my fudge!" and then decide to become gay.

You could have 100 parents tell their sons "Cack is good! You love teh cack!" from the time they are small until they hit puberty and you'll still have a normal distribution of gays in that group.

Where is Pils when you need him, he could answer many questions about turning to the dark side...Christ~

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » October 22, 2003, 8:56 pm

No but over the evloution of mankind. We have adapted to ways of nature,set backs, or suroundings.

Adults who grew up with a abusive father, or a drunk, tend to grow up to be the same. Sure someothers dont, but still theres a amount of people who do because of it. Kids going though school doing well because of their parents giving them a influance over them about it.

People have some habbits their parents had. It goes on and on. Due to the fact on how the human race has evoloved, I tend to believe we have a choice in everything. Even in sexual partners. Its just we get influnaced by a outside option, some just find it to be the right path.

Im not saying gay people are wrong or whatever. Im just saying I believe from some friends Ive had who lived that option in life, to what I feel people do. Has a tendency to show people are givin the choice, not forced on to them from some dna.

As for your example of a straight guy saying he wants to try out a huge cock.

Some people dont like anal due to the "grossness" or the wrongness of it. Yet people try it all the time and like it. Sure not everyone likes it, theres still the equal distubution of thoese who enjoy it, and thoese who dont like it. Just like how you have people who did try living the gay life style and found that wasnt for them and liked the other sex better.They tried it but didnt like it. Some do try it and stay with it.

If people are born with a gene of just being gay. Where do BI people come in to this? They enjoy both sexes.Is there another gene just to be BI? What about the people who are BI for a period of time, then settle down with either a gay lover, or a hetro relationship? Does that gene just dissapear? Do they lie when they say they find the same sex unattractive anymore? Or do they lie when they say they did enjoy being with the same sex?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 22, 2003, 9:35 pm

For every person that is gay because they might have been influenced by a gay parent there are probably ten thousand gay people who's parents were straight.

Behaviorial problems you may be exposed to growing up are conditioned. There is no evidence that homosexuality is.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » October 23, 2003, 12:49 am

Honestly, what's the difference? So what if a guy decides he likes the cock. It's still the same shit, just a different smell. Still going to deal with all the bullshit that comes with it. If the holy church goers want to cause a stink about homosexuality, let them spin their wheels and frig themselves off with their crucifixes. It's a tired subject... I know, a rare commodity here.