The good ole US of A

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 16, 2003, 3:14 am

http://www.npr.org/programs/atc/feature ... index.html

I had a a lot of national pride back in the 80's. Now, most of it is gone. Is it due to a loss of naivity, or have we really gone down hill tha tmuch in the past decade? I had a conversation with my old friends recenty. None of us are really all that liberal. Just middle of the road politcally, and we all wondered when did the USA jump the shark?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 16, 2003, 4:57 am

its kind of a shame how the united states managed to squander the amazing amount of international support in what could have resulted in a massive international cooperative to really put a serious dent in terrorism by illegally attacking another country. they went from having almost universal backing to losing 80% of their allies in less than a year.

Squegy · Post by **Squegy** » October 16, 2003, 5:38 am

We didn't have universal backing because they didn't back us. I am in agreement with everything we did. Bush isn't a pussy like nearly every politician in the whole world. Fixing the culture of these countries that harbor terrorist is the quickest route to taking them out imo. My opinion isn't qualified though, and neither are ANY of yours. The goverment gets update to date info to the minute about everything that is going on. They have more training and experience in these matters than anyone reading this MB. So when you speak speak with so much contempt and distaste remember you are 100 times more naive then them.

For you heartbleeders out there that are saying "we shouldn't mess with their culture" I hope you like stomache full of shrapnel. US has cultural difference with these counties. Europe has them too, but since the US is the big name we are hated far more. This has happened through out history over and over. Whoever wins gets proved right. We don't like to drag our enemies dead leaders through the streets and prefer that women have rights and don't have to be dressed up like the elephant man. It would be nice to change those things, give the common people in those countries some rights.

We know other countries outside of the middle east hate us. That's pretty lame considering how many of our people have been killed protecting you guys. Next time your national anthem comes on be fucking thankful you you aren't saluting a picture of Hitler.

For you USA citizens that are embarassed to be so then leave. Pack your shit and get out you don't have to stay, free country remember? I guess you forgot because you have never known differently.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 16, 2003, 5:45 am

Yeah people like that.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 16, 2003, 5:57 am

Squegy · Post by **Squegy** » October 16, 2003, 6:17 am

Pack your shit and get out

Kguku · Post by **Kguku** » October 16, 2003, 6:25 am

Squegy wrote:The goverment gets update to date info to the minute about everything that is going on.

So they found those WoMD in Iraq?

Squegy wrote:For you heartbleeders out there that are saying "we shouldn't mess with their culture" I hope you like stomache full of shrapnel. US has cultural difference with these counties. Europe has them too, but since the US is the big name we are hated far more. This has happened through out history over and over. Whoever wins gets proved right. We don't like to drag our enemies dead leaders through the streets and prefer that women have rights and don't have to be dressed up like the elephant man. It would be nice to change those things, give the common people in those countries some rights.

Please preach more hate, it's so nice to see idiots like you. I LIKE GETS PROVED RIGHT HYUK HYUK PAW SHOOT THEM DEADS THEY DONT LIKE MAH CATS CULTURE

Squegy wrote:We know other countries outside of the middle east hate us. That's pretty lame considering how many of our people have been killed protecting you guys. Next time your national anthem comes on be fucking thankful you you aren't saluting a picture of Hitler.

Yes, because only the USA crossed the Atlantic and fought in WW2 for no reason except to help them European type people HYUK HYUK. (psst - news flash for you, Canada isn't in Europe.)

And for the record - Kyoukan isn't american, so your pack your shit and leave quote doesn't quite work on her, nor will it with me.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » October 16, 2003, 6:37 am

We didn't have universal backing because they didn't back us.

We had complete UN backing for both the first Iraq war and the invasion of Afghanistan.

Facts are good.

Squegy · Post by **Squegy** » October 16, 2003, 6:56 am

Kguku - stupid jokes make you cool. I am not even going to respond to what you posted as you are just looking for a fight. Why doesn't America Jr. keep just keep quiet? K, thx.

Xyun - If they had not used the word 'universal' then I would not have used that arguement.

Kguku · Post by **Kguku** » October 16, 2003, 7:21 am

Squegy wrote:Kguku - stupid jokes make you cool. I am not even going to respond to what you posted as you are just looking for a fight. Why doesn't America Jr. keep just keep quiet? K, thx.

It was done on purpose to show you how much of a fuckin jackass you are sounding like. I'm glad that point went over your head completely.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » October 16, 2003, 7:44 am

To look at this from the other side... I wonder how Germany would have reacted if the planes went into the Reichstag, or France if the target was the Chateau de Versailles, or England into the Parlaiment Building. The fact that we screamed bloody murder and went after the people that were found to be responsible isn't unique to America. Just because Europe didn't jump on the 'kill em all' bandwagon doesn't mean that they would have been as passive and apathetic as their supposed 'moral high ground' proves.

Regardless of any personal opinions, any sovereign nation that is attacked in such a way will take it as an act of aggression or outright war. And I don't think that Germany would have gone to the UN asking for permission to bomb Al Queda camps to be turned down by the Taliban ambassidor to the UN and just said "Oh well, we hope you put them in jail for us. Cheers."

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » October 16, 2003, 7:50 am

Pahreyia wrote:To look at this from the other side... I wonder how Germany would have reacted if the planes went into the Reichstag, or France if the target was the Chateau de Versailles, or England into the Parlaiment Building. The fact that we screamed bloody murder and went after the people that were found to be responsible isn't unique to America. Just because Europe didn't jump on the 'kill em all' bandwagon doesn't mean that they would have been as passive and apathetic as their supposed 'moral high ground' proves.

Regardless of any personal opinions, any sovereign nation that is attacked in such a way will take it as an act of aggression or outright war. And I don't think that Germany would have gone to the UN asking for permission to bomb Al Queda camps to be turned down by the Taliban ambassidor to the UN and just said "Oh well, we hope you put them in jail for us. Cheers."

You are confusing the issue here. Not surprising after the blur job the Bush administration has done. The world supported the US against the Taliban and Al Queda.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 16, 2003, 7:55 am

Pahreyia is one of those 70% of US citizens brainwashed into believing Saddam was behind the WTC attacks.

The other guy's just a mong.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 16, 2003, 8:05 am

I wonder how Germany would have reacted if the planes went into the Reichstag, or France if the target was the Chateau de Versailles, or England into the Parlaiment Building.

Was tried a while back. A plane was hijacked and they tried to hit the Eiffel Tower. Can't for the life of me remember when, but it is a good while ago and was hushed down quite a bit.

The fact that we screamed bloody murder and went after the people that were found to be responsible isn't unique to America.

You also had full support as long as that was what you did (see: Afghanistan). You lost it when the BS with Iraq started.

Squegy isn't even worth commenting on.

Squegy · Post by **Squegy** » October 16, 2003, 8:13 am

I have to apologize as i forgot this was VV. Not a normal message board. Incoming joke that is counter productive in every which way.

I am going to invade Europe disguised as a bar of soap. They will avoid me like I'm the fucking plague.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » October 16, 2003, 8:40 am

The expression goes The price of Freedom is eternal vigilance, not arrogance.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 16, 2003, 9:04 am

The U.S. has always been involved in the exact same shit as this for the last 100 years. The only difference in what they are doing now and 20 years ago is teh internat and media. Do you really think that attacking Iraq at this point was more incorrect than Vietnam was in 1965? Fuck no it isn't. We have a hell of a lot more reason to go in and remove Saddam than we did jumping into a civil war in southeast Asia.

The thing today is that the media is such a presence and everyone is looking for the bigger and more exciting story to tell that every little thing gets broadcast across the media outlets and the internet in sensationalized ways. A US soldier taking a shit in the sand becomes an international pollution incident. The thing is, you can take any industrialized country on this planet and overexpose their actions in the media and come up with much the same activities. The media here is just so out of control that it actually fosters an anti-government attitude.

You can't blame the media for every problem, but to think it is all something new is retarded. There has been no change in the way the US governement has operated since the days when they first started pushing west and taking land from Mexico and the American Indians.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 16, 2003, 10:33 am

Seems many think Isolationism is the way to go again. Can we say another Pearl Harbor? Oops, that already happened, and it is now referred to as 9/11. Shall we start the Isolationism again? Oops too late ________ took place. Taking the fight to the "bad guy" isn't bad in my opinion, and having read transcripts of the senate discussions after the end of the 1st Gulf War, Iraq should have been invaded/Saddam should have been toppled THEN. The fact that it took place now after the schoolyard bully had been standing there with his hands behind his back pouting with I "I didn't do nothin'!" look on his face is what makes it hard for some people to swallow it. Get over it. It happened. Get over it. It is not over. People say that the troops have been there too long. Go the fuck back to when everything started. Go back to the talks before Afghanistan and Iraq were invaded and listen to what is said. There was no timeline. It could take years to complete. Now...what the world thinks about it now (especially Canada) I couldn't give a shit. They had their chance in the beginning, and France's pansy-assed-white-flag-wavin-veto-threatening meddling in the original UN decisions forced things to accelerate. All the US originally wanted was a definition given to Saddam as to what would happen if he did not fully cooperate, but no...that would be too mean to teach the schoolyard bully what happens when you throw a rock at a person who has 10 friends all standing around and he's all alone before he runs into that scenario.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 16, 2003, 10:46 am

You know what I find amusing? That Americans bitch about when France vetoed their Iraq resolution, yet USA is of course right to veto anything regarding Israel! heh

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » October 16, 2003, 11:05 am

Then you clean the fucking mess up.

If you aren't willing, kindly shut up and get out of the way.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 16, 2003, 11:06 am

Of course France vetoed when they knew we would find the equipment they had been secretly selling or giving to Iraq. France means jack and shit to any future discussions on Iraq mmmkay?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 16, 2003, 11:07 am

Ah you mean just like how Israel just happened to get their nuclear ability?

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » October 16, 2003, 11:16 am

I never thought that Saddam was behind the 9/11 attack in any way. Even if he helped the terrorist groups that dosen't mean he was involved in that directly.

We went to war with Iraq because they had continually disobeyed UN sanctions for 12 years, brutalized and murdered their own people and had suspected WMD which could be used to attack neighbors or Europe. At the time I was in full support of the War but recently I have seen the light that we should have waited until bunch of people in Europe died from a gas attack or something before removing him from power.

Some will say... "you would haf been watin' a long time" but we will never know will we? At least now some can rest a little better at night. It's too bad someone did do the same thing back in 1936 when Hitler started taking land after disobeying a treaty for 10 years or so... might could have saved a lot of lives. But as I said before, if that had happend I'm sure those Europen leaders would have been rememberd as assholes rather than pussies... sometimes you just can't win.

Right now? I would like to hear a lot more about WTF is going on in Afganistan.

Marb

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 16, 2003, 11:18 am

Yes I do mean exactly that. Where did Israel enter into the Iraq situation exactly? I don't recall Israel vetoing shit in UN meetings regarding Iraq or sending anything to Iraq. You can understand this or should we send an interpreter for you?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 16, 2003, 11:22 am

Yes please, I need one to understand your babbling. I'll expect him or her here within the hour.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » October 16, 2003, 11:27 am

Boog "fully cooperate" was a moving target that was unacceptable for the Iraqis to meet. Look over the months before the war and watch the demands change each time the Iraqis cooperated or gave more information. The whole process was a sham and dishonest, the decision to invade had been made months earlier. Each US resolution was setup to guarantee Iraq failed to comply and then bring the UN down on them.

I would have agreed with invading and removing Sadam during the Gulf war but after more than a decade of punishing Iraq I think they had more than paid for their crime.

Lets face it, the invasion in hindsight is being justified with rhetoric and dovish arguments and got past most Americans because it was blurred with 911. If the US had used the same resources it used in invading Iraq to capture Bin Laden\Al Queda you might actually have some justice for 911.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 16, 2003, 11:29 am

Kelshara wrote:Yes please, I need one to understand your babbling. I'll expect him or her here within the hour.

Searyx is now on his way to your place. He speaks fluent moron and you two should get along quite well.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 16, 2003, 11:36 am

I can't believe we've got to go through all this shit AGAIN for the remedial learning group.
Its all here in about 3000 threads. Just go back to November last year and start reading.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 16, 2003, 11:42 am

Forthe wrote: Lets face it, the invasion in hindsight is being justified with rhetoric and dovish arguments and got past most Americans because it was blurred with 911. If the US had used the same resources it used in invading Iraq to capture Bin Laden\Al Queda you might actually have some justice for 911.

I think this bothers me the most about the situation. The assumption that Iraq should be a priority because they are, somehow, a threat to US interests is so damn irritating. If they REALLY wanted to defend our interests here and abroad there would be invasions occuring in Saudi, Pakistan, and Syria as we speak.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » October 16, 2003, 11:47 am

So the article is about America viewed through European eyes...

Viewing other countries than your own often produces such articles, it is called ethnocentrism. I could easily slam any major world nation in the same manner.

Glass houses and all.

Perhaps we can speak of the serial murder of Amerind females in Canada and the lack of police investigation.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 16, 2003, 11:49 am

I think this bothers me the most about the situation. The assumption that Iraq should be a priority because they are, somehow, a threat to US interests is so damn irritating

Exactly. But as long as a slow reader comes by once every couple of months to sound off, having finally licked the TV long enough to "learn" something, we're going to have to keep going over the same tired ground.

9/11 happened
The world supported the action against Afghanistan
US starts sabre rattling at Iraq
"Filthy liberals" argue that the reasons for the war are spurious
War happened
"Liberals" proven right
But now we're supposed to "get over it". And wait for the next invasion started on spurious grounds too, I guess.
Oh and don't forget to blame the French even though Russia, Germany and, well , pretty much everyone cept the UK and Spain were against your war too. Oh yeah and remember to repeat the litanies about the "UN" being useless while your government perpetually vetos attempts to do something about middle eastern tensions.
Yes. It impresses us all no end.
Yes.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 16, 2003, 11:52 am

Squegy wrote: We know other countries outside of the middle east hate us. That's pretty lame considering how many of our people have been killed protecting you guys. Next time your national anthem comes on be fucking thankful you you aren't saluting a picture of Hitler.

For you USA citizens that are embarassed to be so then leave. Pack your shit and get out you don't have to stay, free country remember? I guess you forgot because you have never known differently.

here it comes....can't resist....er...uh...

YEAH DUDE THIS IS AMERICA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT! WE AINT PUSSIES, GO KILL ALL THEM THAR TOWELHEAD LETS ROLL!1!!!!111

fucking ignorant, naive, alpha male mentalities like yours is far to rampant, and part of the problem.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 16, 2003, 11:53 am

Searyx is now on his way to your place. He speaks fluent moron and you two should get along quite well.

Ah yes, he should have a good chance at understanding your posts then. Thanks!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 16, 2003, 12:08 pm

tanc you lost them when you said "spurious"

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » October 16, 2003, 12:14 pm

Kylere wrote:So the article is about America viewed through European eyes...

Viewing other countries than your own often produces such articles, it is called ethnocentrism. I could easily slam any major world nation in the same manner.

The US is by far the most ethnocentric country in the west, well.. maybe outside France. Regardless, Americans accept a LOT of things as fact that they've heard on TV.

America is the greatest country in the world!!

At what? Baseball?

All arabs hate us and want us dead!

... based on what? A couple of nutbags who feel you are raping the mid-east? Seemed like a good many Iraqi's were glad to see you. Oh right, you also need positive propaganda for the idiot box when you're going in as a "liberating" force.

I'd love to see an honest survey of just how many Americans believe Paul Bunyan and his giant blue ox, Babe were real too...

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 16, 2003, 12:17 pm

The liberals also predicted a long war with billions of US casualties. I guess both sides are batting .500

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 16, 2003, 12:35 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:The liberals also predicted a long war with billions of US casualties. I guess both sides are batting .500

?? WTF are you talking about? I realize you are speaking in hyperbole, but I don't know what liberals you are refering to who predicted our military would suffer very high casualities.
Moreover, the war isn't really over yet, despite of what Bush tells us. US soldiers are dying almost on a daily basis, and will continue to do so as long as we are there. How long will we be there? "As long as it takes" according to Bush, and if history shall repeat itself in regards to how kindly middle east cultures take to foreign occupiers, it will indeed be a long time before we finally learn that western-style democracy just will not work there, even though Wolfowitz is optomistic that it will. And all that time, Americans will die.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » October 16, 2003, 12:56 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:The liberals also predicted a long war with billions of US casualties. I guess both sides are batting .500

I don't consider myself a liberal but rather a moderate but ...

Forthe wrote:You are all proud because you are beating the snot out of a 3rd world country with 7% of your population, that has been starved for over a decade by sanctions after getting the snot beat out of it?

Vietnam must have really lowered your expectations, I'm shocked and awed it isn't over yet.

I never expected the US to occupy Iraq however (color me naive).

And loosing 10 soldiers in 8 days 6 months after you invaded isn't something to be gloating about.

Burke · Post by **Burke** » October 16, 2003, 12:59 pm

The liberals also predicted a long war with billions of US casualties

Well we are still there militarily and we are still dying there. In fact, haven't we had more casualties since the war "ended" than we had during the course of the war? That the war has been declared over is moot.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 16, 2003, 1:13 pm

I don't consider myself a liberal but rather a moderate but ..

Bullshit. Black and white. With us or against us. There is no middle ground you hippy liberal.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » October 16, 2003, 1:14 pm

Who the hell bumped this year old thread?

Gurugurumaki · Post by **Gurugurumaki** » October 16, 2003, 3:01 pm

Voronwë wrote:tanc you lost them when you said "spurious"

No he had me at spurious

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 16, 2003, 3:07 pm

Forthe wrote:And loosing 10 soldiers in 8 days 6 months after you invaded isn't something to be gloating about.

Dude, we were losing more than 10 soldiers a minute 4 YEARS after we invaded Vietnam. 10 soldiers in 8 days? I think any military would gleefully spitshine your knob to have that kind of casualty rate. Shit, I could probably kill 10 soldiers in 8 days here if I really had an inkling. A serial murderer can easily eclipse that and not even need to have any type of geurilla training.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 16, 2003, 3:38 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Forthe wrote:And loosing 10 soldiers in 8 days 6 months after you invaded isn't something to be gloating about.

Dude, we were losing more than 10 soldiers a minute 4 YEARS after we invaded Vietnam. 10 soldiers in 8 days? I think any military would gleefully spitshine your knob to have that kind of casualty rate. Shit, I could probably kill 10 soldiers in 8 days here if I really had an inkling. A serial murderer can easily eclipse that and not even need to have any type of geurilla training.

Yeah, and that's really acceptable for that delicious oil!

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » October 16, 2003, 5:37 pm

Dont forget though, if we didnt invade iraq, saddam woulda hijacked another 747 and drove it himself into the whitehouse with all his WMD duct taped in the planes baggage area

so of course the invasion was justified

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » October 17, 2003, 8:35 am

Let's say that the US successfully installs a democracy in Iraq and the people vote in a militant fundamentalist muslim as their new leader. What then?

The fact is that any argument stating that the US wants to spread democracy in the middle east is truly naive. Most of the people in the middle east have a negative attitude towards us, and a successfully democratic government there now would probably be opposed to US interests.

Freedom and liberation are smoke and mirror words for the rabble, so that they have some sort of justification for their government committing haneous crimes.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » October 17, 2003, 9:38 am

Forthe wrote:Boog "fully cooperate" was a moving target that was unacceptable for the Iraqis to meet. Look over the months before the war and watch the demands change each time the Iraqis cooperated or gave more information. The whole process was a sham and dishonest, the decision to invade had been made months earlier. Each US resolution was setup to guarantee Iraq failed to comply and then bring the UN down on them.

I would have agreed with invading and removing Sadam during the Gulf war but after more than a decade of punishing Iraq I think they had more than paid for their crime.

Lets face it, the invasion in hindsight is being justified with rhetoric and dovish arguments and got past most Americans because it was blurred with 911. If the US had used the same resources it used in invading Iraq to capture Bin Laden\Al Queda you might actually have some justice for 911.

The resolutions never said what would happen if he did not cooperate. That was the problem. It was too vague. I will hunt down and post the link to the Senate meeting minutes where they were stating their case for removing Saddam back in 1991 I believe.

You and I agree on the hindsight bit. Whether or not it should have happened is behind us. Now it has been done, and must be fixed. That's what is still being attempted, and that's the part that a lot of people cannot seem to understand.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 17, 2003, 12:29 pm

Xyun wrote:Let's say that the US successfully installs a democracy in Iraq and the people vote in a militant fundamentalist muslim as their new leader. What then?

The fact is that any argument stating that the US wants to spread democracy in the middle east is truly naive. Most of the people in the middle east have a negative attitude towards us, and a successfully democratic government there now would probably be opposed to US interests.

Freedom and liberation are smoke and mirror words for the rabble, so that they have some sort of justification for their government committing haneous crimes.

ANY attempton the Iraqi's part to push for an Islamic government would be queitly derailed by us on a continual basis. In fact, it's more than likely happening right now.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » October 19, 2003, 12:20 am

Look how the US has had a hand of spreading democracy over the world the past 60years and tell me again thats not a reason we are there?...areas even more imaginable than Iraq and the Middle East....Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union for example.

Yea some oil deals will be made Im sure someday in the future....but as a point to the middle east and the world Bush has wanted our money togo to them as a grant and not to be payed back by loans through there Oil...To show this is not our main reason that you whiners all scream about BUT HEY look at who is pushing to take the Iraqi peoples Oil with these loans(it is your heros in our gov't the progressives)hypocrits.

Our reason there is mainly strategic, then 12 years of failed resolutions, Saddams track record on his people, To spread Democracy in the middle east, WoMD possibly someday getting to terrorist through them, terrorist camps in northern Iraq. Some will disagree with this because they have no clue how to fight a war and R blinded for there hatred of Bush, but they dont have the call which is good.....so boohoo and cry. It is mainly to trick and bring Al'Queda and friends to fight us in Iraq while we tear em up and to hopefully avoid there focus of hitting us in our homeland(becasue there resources will be focused in Iraq)....we have lost 101 soldiers during major conflict but they have lost approx 15,000 of approx 30-40k enemies were facing there atm(willing to fight)....This is much better policy than scouting around the mountains of Afganistan waiting yrs to get intelligence built up there too do much good (because were to politically correct to send in special teams and release the reins off em and let em kill the terrorist and poor pig blood on there asses)...The front is Iraq, and the Iraqi people will be much better off even with this action, because Saddam has been one of the most cruelist leaders in recent years.

I cant see were all these morons are asking were is the plan? Fight in Iraq, restore order building up there police force, keep enough influence/military to avoid a radical religious/militant gov't taking over....Turn them into a influeced democracy like Japan and West Germany were..till many years after when they are pacified. When action calms down focus more on Afganistan, Syria, Iran, Isreal/Palestine and North Korea. And hopefully ONE DAMN day Isreal and Palestine can get something worked out, because its one damn thorn in the ass of the world.

Do these people want us to tell the enemy our entire plan....hell in Bush's first speech he said it would last a long time he told us there would be multiple fronts and that everything you heard would not be as it was told...you dont do that in War because its stupid.

Peace out and have fun

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » October 19, 2003, 3:53 am

Sirton, you cannot compare the econimci miracle of the 50's in German, and the rebuild of Japan, and the westernization of Russian with whats going on in the middle east because of RELIGION...ISLAM. Compare apples to apples now, and look at the precident of the Crimean War, WWI, India spitting off Pakistan, Algeria, Afghanitan, etc. Looking at how the axis powers were rebuilt & absorbed into NATO after WWII is a very specific turn of events.
Oil is why we are in Iraq. Dont be a naive fool.