Oh joy...

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 16, 2003, 6:05 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/09/ ... index.html

"There hasn't been one resolution condemning the killing of 860 Israelis through suicide and homicide bombing," Gissin said. "One hundred and twenty suicide bombers penetrated Israel in the past three years -- not one condemnation of that."

Yeah, and how many Palastinians bystanders have been killed by the IDF?

Get over it....both parties are murdering each other. No side is any worse than the other.

Looks the the shits gonna hit the fan........

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 16, 2003, 6:10 pm

Fuck them both.

I say we let them fight it out, with the explicit understanding that ANY nuclear strike by either side will result in the Holy Land being rendered into glowing green slag.

So let it be written. So let it be done.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » September 16, 2003, 6:18 pm

Israel would have Palestine in an hour if that were so. That whole side of the globe is fucked for years to come. And yeah, the US is responsible for a large part of it.

This of course won't bode well with Al Quada.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 16, 2003, 6:31 pm

Zamtuk wrote:Israel would have Palestine in an hour if that were so. That whole side of the globe is fucked for years to come. And yeah, the US is responsible for a large part of it.

This of course won't bode well with Al Quada.

Yes, if you can keep the rest of the arab world at bay from getting a piece of the action! if the US pulled out all support for Isreal, and said "Fuck You, you're on your own" Isreal would be pulvarized.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 16, 2003, 6:38 pm

I don't understand how the united states can proclaim they are spreading democracy and freedom to the middle east when they continue to ignore, push aside and support expelling the democratically elected leader of the palestinians.

That said, the UN making any resolutions directed at Israel is like me demanding Cartalas post something intelligent. It's not going to happen. Israel has basically completely ignored the UN since the UN created Israel in the first place. In my entire life I have never seen such a bunch of ingrates as Israelis but that is probably not going to change any time soon either.

If the US ever abandons the country they wouldn't have much of a chance though. They did some pretty amazing things militarily in the 50s and 60s but they were fighting mostly arabs with bolt action rifles riding around on camels. And type of co-ordinated assault from the combined forces of all the surrounding arab nations would pretty much lay waste to Israel unless there was a nuclear exchange.

I believe the Bush administration announced a bunch of cuts in Israeli aid yesterday because of their continued practice of populating disputed land with more settlers. Hopefully the trend will continue until aid is ended completely.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » September 16, 2003, 6:48 pm

Skogen wrote:if the US pulled out all support for Isreal, and said "Fuck You, you're on your own" Isreal would be pulvarized.

In the long term (10+ years) possibly, in the short term no way in hell. Isreal has the worlds 4th largest standing army, and is far, far better equipped and trained than any of it's neighbors. Arguably the best air force in the world to boot. Something on the order of 60% of the population has some military training, and would fight. I'll garauntee they have arms available for them.

Only an idiot would mess with Isreal, and everyone in the region knows it.

Addecus_Subtractucus · September 16, 2003, 6:59 pm

masteen wrote:Fuck them both.

I say we let them fight it out, with the explicit understanding that ANY nuclear strike by either side will result in the Holy Land being rendered into glowing green slag.

So let it be written. So let it be done.

quoted for emphasis.......

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 16, 2003, 6:59 pm

In the Six days war , the Egyptians, Syrians, & Jordanians had the some of the best Soviet equipment. The trouble was they had NO coordination, and were horribly trained. Isreal just came in, and chopped them up piecemeal. The Egyptian air force, with the most advanced Soviet MIG at that time, was destroyed, in its entirety, on the ground, in 30 minutes. Their ground forces, advancing across the Sinai peninsula, had NO air cover, and got spanked.
No help at all from Syria or Jordan. Jordan started shelling Isreal only after the Egyptians were done for, so Isreal just had to turn there planes & tanks east, and plowed on in. At this point, Syria hadn't lift a finger.
Isreal, pissed about constant PLO attacks from the Golan heights in Syria, had finished off Egypt, Jordan...why not Syria? They pounded the hell out of it, and occupied the Golan hieghts. Edgypt made peace with Isreal, and in exchange, gave Egypt back the Sinai penninsula. The Golan Heights, West Bank & Gaza are still Isreals. They wont give them back. Ever.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 16, 2003, 7:34 pm

Man Israel doesn't have anywhere close to the 4th largest standing army. Hell they only have 6 million people in that nation. They certainly have a fairly large military for their population size because service in the IDF is mandatory but it's not that large.

They do have a great air force but again, it's not all that large.

If there was a repeat of the 6 days war I don't think Israel would come out on top.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » September 16, 2003, 9:26 pm

I can't find anything to back up the troop numbers, but just by spending alone they've got quite an edge over everyone else in the region except the Saudis.

Training and equipment win wars.

Isreal:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$8.97 billion (FY02)

Jordan:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$757.5 million (FY01)

Egypt:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$4.04 billion (FY99)

Syria:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$858 million (FY00 est.); note - based on official budget data that may understate actual spending

Lebanon:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$541 million (2002)

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » September 16, 2003, 9:55 pm

one of the only ways this problem will ever be resolved is if the US stops fucking supporting israel, all were doingis egging on one side that pisses off the other side even more, which in result, pisses off the other side

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » September 16, 2003, 10:06 pm

aye ... we need to pull out of israel and just sit back and see what happends

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » September 16, 2003, 10:15 pm

That would never happen. Even if I agreed with you (I don't), the United States has a significant Jewish population and they are a powerful political force in the U.S.. It just won't happen. I do not like Sharon, but I like Arafat far less and support any would love to see him out of the situation completely. His handling of the Abbas situation was a joke and it was clear he would stand for nothing less than a puppet in that post.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 16, 2003, 11:40 pm

Aabidano wrote:I can't find anything to back up the troop numbers, but just by spending alone they've got quite an edge over everyone else in the region except the Saudis.

Training and equipment win wars.

Isreal:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$8.97 billion (FY02)

Jordan:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$757.5 million (FY01)

Egypt:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$4.04 billion (FY99)

Syria:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$858 million (FY00 est.); note - based on official budget data that may understate actual spending

Lebanon:
Military expenditures - dollar figure:
$541 million (2002)

this could just mean that Isreal doesn't cut coupons.

Seriously though, what do you think would have happened if Isreal was created in Brazil instead of where it is now? That was one of their options.

Vaemas · Post by **Vaemas** » September 17, 2003, 12:13 am

Bubba Grizz wrote:this could just mean that Isreal doesn't cut coupons.

Seriously though, what do you think would have happened if Isreal was created in Brazil instead of where it is now? That was one of their options.

Like that would have happened. Israel wanted "their" land back in the middle east because that was "their" heritage. Brazil never would have flown.

On a side note, I also believe that the US has made a huge mess of the Middle East and will probably continue to do so. I'd love to see us pull out and leave, but at this point we are at least partially responsible for the situation. Unfortunately, I don't see a peaceful solution to the problem. When two ethnic groups have been at odds for thousands of years, sticking your face into the mess isn't the brightest of choices.

But then no one ever said the US made the best decisions.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » September 17, 2003, 12:21 am

If I remember correctly, the Jewish population of the United States is about 3%.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » September 17, 2003, 8:25 am

Even if the US pulled overt support, I'd bet private support would keep Israel alive.

For those of you with short memories Arafat was never elected to anything that I recall. He was (is?) a terrorist leader as well. Anyone recall seeing him make magazine covers with an AK47 in hand in years past? I don't agree with Sharon, but I'd bet if you took Arafat out of the picture things would improve.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » September 17, 2003, 8:48 am

For those of you with short memories Arafat was never elected to anything that I recall.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/1996/218/218p20b.htm

The 88% vote for PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat for the council presidency and the strong showing by the Fatah coalition, which won 50 of the 88 seats, showed that while aspirations for the peace process are higher than its results so far, Palestinians don't believe there is any realistic alternative.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 17, 2003, 9:40 am

If we pulled out and said, go for it, but we will remove from the board anyone that uses nukes, Israel would own the rest of the middle east.

When the Israeli's got done kicking the membership of OPEC around they could take out North Korea as a snack. There is a reason they have survived massive invasions and it has to do with the effectiveness of training and the superiority of equipment tempered by the will of the people.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » September 17, 2003, 10:20 am

I posted a while back a detail of what happened in the 6 day war. Israel was spared due to two reasons, Egyptian military structure which does not let battlefield commanders do anything without orders, and Egypt not having a battle plan that consisted of anything once they were past the Canal, due in part to them not knowing that they would break through so fast and easily. If Egypt would have kept driving, Israel would have fallen pure and simple.

In sports talk, the Muslims had a superior first half, but half the team went home in the second half due to everyones percieved misconception of Israels military dominance (no second half battle plan). Israel was at their weakest point then because of overconfidence, they will not let their guard down like that ever again.

If they all attack Israel again you better believe they will strike harder than they did the first time since they found out Israel can bleed too. On the other hand it will not be as easy due to Israel being so wary. It will be worse than the 6 day war for sure.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » September 17, 2003, 10:24 am

I'm in utter disbelief that the US veto'd a resolution dealing with Israel threatening to remove a democratically elected leader.

The US government deserves a fuck you for this one.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » September 17, 2003, 10:30 am

According to http://www.nationmaster.com (an interesting site btw) Israel has the 29th largest standing army with 172,000. I do seem to remember that they have universal conscription so most of their population has served and they would probably be able to bring up substantial reserves.

For middle eastern countries only number of armed personel are

Country Amount
1. Turkey 610,000
2. Iran 513,000
3. Syria 316,000
4. Saudi Arabia 202,000
5. Israel 172,000
6. Jordan 104,000
7. Yemen 66,000
8. United Arab Emirates 65,000
9. Lebanon 64,000
10. Oman 44,000
11. Kuwait 15,000
12. Qatar 12,000
13. Bahrain 11,000
14. Cyprus 10,000

Their air force is more significant, air force personnel only numbers are

Country Amount
1. Turkey 63,000 (8/1/98)
2. Israel 32,000 (1998E)
3. Iraq 30,000 (2001E)
4. Jordan 13,400 (8/98)
5. United Arab Emirates 4,000 (1998)
6. Yemen 3,500 (8/98)
7. Kuwait 2,500 (8/98)
8. Bahrain 1,500 (8/98)
9. Qatar 1,500 (8/98)

And in terms of spending

Country Amount
1. Saudi Arabia $18.3 billion (FY00)
2. Iran $9.7 billion (FY00)
3. Israel $8.97 billion (FY02)
4. Turkey $8.1 billion (2002 est.)
5. Oman $2,424.4 million (FY01)
6. Kuwait $1,967.3 million (FY01)
7. United Arab Emirates $1.6 billion (FY00)
8. Iraq $1.3 billion (FY00)
9. Syria $921 million (FY00 est.); note - based on official budget data that may understate actual spending
10. Jordan $757.5 million (FY01)
11. Qatar $723 million (FY00/01)
12. Bahrain $526.2 million (FY01)
13. Yemen $482.5 million (FY01)
14. Cyprus $370 million (FY00)
15. Lebanon $343 million (FY99/00)

Edit: fixed headings.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » September 17, 2003, 10:32 am

Forthe wrote:I'm in utter disbelief that the US veto'd a resolution dealing with Israel threatening to remove a democratically elected leader.

The US government deserves a fuck you for this one.

Why would you be? We removed Saddam, and he was democratically elected by a 100% vote, remember?

Seriously, I too am amazed at this, the US at the very least should have abstained. Now the repercussions will lie on our shoulders, and deservedly so. I really dont see Israel killing the guy if the UN had passed that resolution, I honestly dont.

-edit- I really wish that report had Egyptian numbers due to them being the backbone of the start of the 6 day war. Who is uncluded in the United Arab Emerates?

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » September 17, 2003, 10:50 am

Kylere wrote:When the Israeli's got done kicking the membership of OPEC around they could take out North Korea as a snack. There is a reason they have survived massive invasions and it has to do with the effectiveness of training and the superiority of equipment tempered by the will of the people.

You can take that to the bank.

UAE is a collection of 7 small kingdoms (emirates) off the top of my head. Spent too much time there, Dubai is a very nice city.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 17, 2003, 12:24 pm

Kylere wrote:If we pulled out and said, go for it, but we will remove from the board anyone that uses nukes, Israel would own the rest of the middle east.

When the Israeli's got done kicking the membership of OPEC around they could take out North Korea as a snack. There is a reason they have survived massive invasions and it has to do with the effectiveness of training and the superiority of equipment tempered by the will of the people.

Where do you think Isreal gets the money/arms for it's armed forces? If we totally pulled out, and they would get driven into the sea.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » September 17, 2003, 12:40 pm

I'm in utter disbelief that the US veto'd a resolution dealing with Israel threatening to remove a democratically elected leader.

The US government deserves a fuck you for this one.

I'm gonna link this thread every time someone twats on about the "useless" UN.

Using the 6-day war as a comparison for the modern day is just pointless. To add to Krimson's points:
1) The Egyptian battle plan didn't have a part two because they had no plan to invade Israel. They wanted to pop 10km past the Canal to make a point, look good to the electorate then withdraw.
2) This wasn't relayed to the troops who were whooping about "we're going to Tel Aviv". Israeli ears hear this in Cairo and report back.
3) Egyptian momentum pushes them further into Sinaii than intended and beyond their air defence umberella.
3) Israel know's it is fucked in a straight fight thus launches pre-emptive strikes against the Egyptian air force which is still on the ground.
4) Desert warfare with no air support can only result on one thing.

Source: Fifty Years War: Israel and the Arabs by Ahron Gregman & Jihan El-Tahri. From actual interviews with the actual people who gave the actual orders.

Drolgin Steingrinder · September 17, 2003, 2:23 pm

The only reason the saudi are that high on the expenditure list is because they, in the wake of Gulf War, Episode I, realized that fighting tanks on horseback wasn't the best of ideas. They've bought a shitload of equipment every year since then, but most of it is (supposedly, I'll see if I can dig up the source later) in horrible disrepair, since it's mainly being used for weekend-warriors and their target practice. Hey, shooting a tank is allegedly pretty fun!

The Saudis still don't have anything resembling a modern army. Israel most definately does, they're among the best trained in the world, thanks in large part to the training exercises conducted in the Negev with US overseers.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 17, 2003, 3:12 pm

The US is walking a strange PR tightrope in the Middle East right now.

Even though the Palestinian/Israeli issue doesnt directly effect most Muslims, it is in their minds the most important political issue. If you ask people on the streets of Cairo, Damascus, whereever what is their most "important domestic issue" they say the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

The importance of the US being for the most part totally one sided continues to absolutely fuck us from a PR standpoint

Rivera Bladestrike · September 17, 2003, 3:46 pm

Wow, didn't realize that North Korea has close to one million in the military.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 17, 2003, 3:51 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:Why would you be? We removed Saddam, and he was democratically elected by a 100% vote, remember?

Are you implying that Arafat rigged the election and doesn't enjoy popular support in palestine or was that a joke?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » September 17, 2003, 3:57 pm

It was a joke.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » September 19, 2003, 4:36 pm

I didn't realize what was really going on today. None of the media I've read even hinted at this.

In a letter to Assembly President Julian Robert Hunte, Foreign Minister of the Caribbean island nation of St. Lucia, Sudan's Permanent Representative, Elfatih Mohamed Ahmed Erwa, said he was requesting the meeting on behalf of the 22-member Arab League "in the light of the inability of the Security Council to fulfil its responsibility for the maintenance of international peace and security due to the exercise by one of its permanent members of the veto."

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?N ... e&Cr1=east

1. Resolves that if the Security Council, because of
lack of unanimity of the permanent members, fails to
exercise its primary responsibility for the maintenance
of intermitional peace and security in any case where
there appears to be a threat to the peace, breach of the
peace, or act of aggression, the General Assembly shall
consider the matter immediately with a view to making
appropriate recommendations to Members for collec-
tive measures, includilig in the case of a breach of the
peace or aqt of aggression the use of armed force when
necessary, to maintain or restare international peace
and security. If not in session at the.time, the General
Assembly may meet in emergency special session within
twenty-four hours of the request therefor. Such emer-
gency special session shall be called if requested by the
Security Council on the yote of any seven members, or
by a majority of the Members of the United Nations;

http://www.un.org/Depts/dhl/landmark/pdf/ares377e.pdf

Looks like the Arab League is trying to get around the US veto.

Edit followup:

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?N ... e&Cr1=east

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3123674.stm

It is odd that the BBC seems unaware that this resolution can actually authorize force or sanctions.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 19, 2003, 5:16 pm

You know, I am still trying to find information that REALLY backs up Isreali claims that Arafat himself is the biggest roadblock to making peace.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » September 19, 2003, 5:29 pm

Skogen wrote:You know, I am still trying to find information that REALLY backs up Isreali claims that Arafat himself is the biggest roadblock to making peace.

Yeah after a month of peace Israel starts assasinating palestinians and the violence starts up again, then spins it to blame Arafat. They even have their pet US president spinning it for them as well.

What is even more concerning to me to me is CBC and BBC reports which imply that the suicide bombing of the 15th (i think that was the date) was the spark that blew things up again. That bombing was a direct reprisal for Israeli assasinations a couple of days prior to it.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 19, 2003, 6:11 pm

Even if Arafat actually caved in totally to Sharon, what would happen? It's not like he has total loyalty of the PA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. as it is. If he cracked down, and condemned all attacks against Israelis, not only would they not listen to him, but he would lose the respect of the people who do follow him. This, couple with the fact that the Israelis have all but destroyed the PA security infrastructer. It was so laughable that Sharon was bitching about Arafat not taking more control over the situation when the IDF had him trapped in his compound!
A lot of Palastinians are not going to reconize Israel as a legitimate country no matter what ANYONE says.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » September 19, 2003, 8:02 pm

Jesus H Christ. Someone put a filter in for Isreal -> Israel. I don't care how much it makes me look a petty Nazi, you shouldn't be able to comment on a country if you can't spell it's fucking name.

Kilrain · Post by **Kilrain** » September 20, 2003, 2:53 pm

If the US withdrew it's support from Israel, (not that this would ever happen due to the emmense power of the Jewish Lobby groups in the US), then inevitably there would be a war.

Could Israel take on a coalition of Arabs that would seek the total destruction of the Jewish state? It would be one hell of a fight, however in the end, Israel would lose a conventional war.

Being the betting man that I am however, I'd let it all ride on Israel dropping a few nukes before the end came near. Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Egypt would be left in ashes. (Iran would be hit as well I would guess, as they are strong Hezbollah supporters and most likely would be an active player in any engagement.)

Afterall, if you are facing complete annihilation at the hands of a people that wish to see your race wiped from the globe, what do you really have to lose?

So, it's probably a good thing that the US hasn't backed out of that shit. It appears to be one of the only stabilizing forces (albeit destructive in their own right) in the region.

As far as Arafat goes, I think he's walked the fine line far too long and now it's biting him in the ass. He can't make peace with Israel, while at the same time appeasing the Islamic militant groups like Hamas. He has to pick a side and stick to it. He's been swinging both ways for too long, and is in fact now an obstacle to any lasting peace.

Either side with Hamas, the Islamic Jihad and the rest of the militants, and publicly announce a military stance against Israel, or side against the fucking terrorists, take the hit in the publicity polls and clean the shit up once and for all.

If he refuses to do either, then he needs to get the fuck out of the way... all he's doing now is promoting this cycle of terrorist attacks, followed by Israeli retaliation, and it's getting no one anywhere.