It's Official...

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 16, 2003, 3:40 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/ ... index.html

Our best chance to get Bush out of the white house announced his candidacy today. Unfortunately, I am not up on his stance on certain issues, but it can't be any worse than Bush.

Siji · Post by **Siji** » September 16, 2003, 3:44 pm

http://sfgate.com/columnists/fiore/

If this was posted here before, I'm sorry. I can't remember where I found it.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 16, 2003, 3:53 pm

How come so many prominent ex-military that go into politics run on the democrat ticket and the GOP just winds up with all the cowardly college boy warhawks that just want to play war as long as they were never personally involved?

The democrats get Kerry and Clark and Hackworth and the republicans get Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and president AWOL. I guess Powell is there but he's pretty liberal.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 16, 2003, 4:02 pm

Unless he decides to get radically left on domestic issues, I'd consider voting for Wesley over Dubya. Since military guys seldom go down that path, I'm pretty sure he'll be a good candidate.

I'm still waiting for any of these jokers to come up with a better plan to the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan than "Bring our boys home." I know it's too much of a mess to get into details without all the specific intel, but just throw out some broad strokes, ffs.

EDIT: sperring

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » September 16, 2003, 4:02 pm

It's pretty rare to see this number of ex-millitary getting involved, period.

I don't think the dems are doing themselves any favors fielding this many candidates.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 16, 2003, 4:05 pm

kyoukan wrote:How come so many prominent ex-military that go into politics run on the democrat ticket and the GOP just winds up with all the cowardly college boy warhawks that just want to play war as long as they were never personally involved?

The democrats get Kerry and Clark and Hackworth and the republicans get Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and president AWOL. I guess Powell is there but he's pretty liberal.

Because the Democrats don't have a bullshit religious agenda that is incompatible with the pragmatism that comes from years of military service.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » September 16, 2003, 4:09 pm

Fallanthas wrote:It's pretty rare to see this number of ex-millitary getting involved, period.

I don't think the dems are doing themselves any favors fielding this many candidates.

I'm of the opposite opinion. The more the merrier to an extent. You are bound to get a better selection when your list of available choices is larger.

Too bad Powell won't run. Powell vs Wesley would be interesting.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 16, 2003, 4:10 pm

Fallanthas wrote:I don't think the dems are doing themselves any favors fielding this many candidates.

why?

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » September 16, 2003, 4:15 pm

If only McCain had gotten the Republican nod... I actually liked him, for a Republican.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 16, 2003, 4:16 pm

kyoukan wrote:
Fallanthas wrote:I don't think the dems are doing themselves any favors fielding this many candidates.
why?

Most American's can't count that high w/out taking off their shoes, much less keep track of that many candidates.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » September 16, 2003, 4:22 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:If only McCain had gotten the Republican nod... I actually liked him, for a Republican.

I like McCain also. His stand on campaign finance reform was one of the few times a politician has really surprised me.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » September 16, 2003, 4:24 pm

He's a retired army officer, you can't get anymore PC than that. As a whole, they are labeled as the "least employable" ex-military persons by corporate America. The army is a huge bureaucracy, nothing happens except if it comes from on high and no can be blamed for results.

He might be an exception, you never know.

Post by **Sylvus** » September 16, 2003, 4:26 pm

He also just seems like a quality guy. I certainly felt like I could trust McCain a lot more than GWB, unfortunately he wasn't on the ballot when November came around.

Was he? I didn't think so, but the choice between Bush and Gore left more more than a bit apathetic and I didn't even register to vote.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » September 16, 2003, 4:28 pm

kyoukan wrote:How come so many prominent ex-military that go into politics run on the democrat ticket and the GOP just winds up with all the cowardly college boy warhawks that just want to play war as long as they were never personally involved?

Avoid broad sweeping statements, as you are usually wrong.

www.whitehouse.gov wrote:Coming from a family with a tradition of public service, George Herbert Walker Bush felt the responsibility to make his contribution both in time of war and in peace. Born in Milton, Massachusetts, on June 12, 1924, he became a student leader at Phillips Academy in Andover. On his 18th birthday he enlisted in the armed forces. The youngest pilot in the Navy when he received his wings, he flew 58 combat missions during World War II. On one mission over the Pacific as a torpedo bomber pilot he was shot down by Japanese antiaircraft fire and was rescued from the water by a U. S. submarine. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross for bravery in action.

It would be easier for you to just say "I hate Republicans" or more specifically "I hate the current President".

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 16, 2003, 4:31 pm

Oh.

I was unaware that George Bush sr. was still president of the united states and not his son, the fucking coward who went AWOL during Vietnam and got his daddy to use his political influence and wealth to let him get away with it.

I will now recheck the newspaper and see what other major current events I might be missing.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » September 16, 2003, 4:33 pm

why?

Dilution of support. Historically, incumbent presidents are hard to unseat. Spreading party resources over many candidates doesn't put a dem in the white house.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 16, 2003, 4:35 pm

I thought McCain was great. He wasn't perfect, and refused to spin any of his missteps into "I didn't inhale" or "youthful indescretions" like Clinton and Bush did.

He actually took responsibility for calling the VCs "gooks" (time in a tiger cage will do that to ya) and was punished for it by the media as well as the other candidates. I was so disappointed when he lost the primary.

Ashur · Post by **Ashur** » September 16, 2003, 4:37 pm

Because your original statement implied "Republicans don't serve in the military and all the ex-military that run for office are Democrats".

Be specific if you must. Discuss Mr. Clinton's military record if you want, or Mrs. Clintons since she's supposedly all that and a bag of chps.

I'm fine if you think the current US President is a coward, I really don't give a shit. But you make these broad sweeping statements that are way out in left field. Actually, I think I'm done replying to your posts in general, your capacity for hatred just astounds me.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 16, 2003, 4:46 pm

masteen wrote:I thought McCain was great. He wasn't perfect, and refused to spin any of his missteps into "I didn't inhale" or "youthful indescretions" like Clinton and Bush did.

He actually took responsibility for calling the VCs "gooks" (time in a tiger cage will do that to ya) and was punished for it by the media as well as the other candidates. I was so disappointed when he lost the primary.

I liked that about him as well. No lame-ass backpedaling or skirting the isssue. Admitted it, gave a good apology, and went on.

I wonder how thing would have proceeded if Clinton had just come out and admitted he banged Monica early in the game?

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » September 16, 2003, 5:09 pm

kyoukan wrote:Oh.

I was unaware that George Bush sr. was still president of the united states and not his son, the fucking coward who went AWOL during Vietnam and got his daddy to use his political influence and wealth to let him get away with it.

I will now recheck the newspaper and see what other major current events I might be missing.

wouldnt you do the same though, hell the war in vietnam was twice as un justified as the war with iraq and you bitch at the american soldiers who are there becouse they have a choice to be in the military or not

my ass would sure as hell never fight in Vietnam,

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 16, 2003, 5:14 pm

Xzion wrote:
kyoukan wrote:Oh.

I was unaware that George Bush sr. was still president of the united states and not his son, the fucking coward who went AWOL during Vietnam and got his daddy to use his political influence and wealth to let him get away with it.

I will now recheck the newspaper and see what other major current events I might be missing.
wouldnt you do the same though, hell the war in vietnam was twice as un justified as the war with iraq and you bitch at the american soldiers who are there becouse they have a choice to be in the military or not

my ass would sure as hell never fight in Vietnam,

Same. I would be in Canada in a flash (dual citizenship here!)

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 16, 2003, 5:40 pm

Fallanthas wrote:
why?

Dilution of support. Historically, incumbent presidents are hard to unseat. Spreading party resources over many candidates doesn't put a dem in the white house.

dude its the primaries. only one will run for president.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 16, 2003, 5:42 pm

Ashur [FoH] wrote:Because your original statement implied "Republicans don't serve in the military and all the ex-military that run for office are Democrats".

Be specific if you must. Discuss Mr. Clinton's military record if you want, or Mrs. Clintons since she's supposedly all that and a bag of chps.

I'm fine if you think the current US President is a coward, I really don't give a shit. But you make these broad sweeping statements that are way out in left field. Actually, I think I'm done replying to your posts in general, your capacity for hatred just astounds me.

Yes because I clearly stated that all democrats were decorated war heroes and all republicans were cowardly knaves.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » September 16, 2003, 11:36 pm

How come so many prominent ex-military that go into politics run on the democrat ticket and the GOP just winds up with all the cowardly college boy warhawks that just want to play war as long as they were never personally involved

Most ex military knows how the GOP run the military, I think they are tired of going to war eachtime a GOP is elected to pres, and if anyone looks back...any GOP in pres has started a war.. Although the GOPS do try and raise military pay, they also do shit like how bush is, and taking away over seas pay, and familiy sepration pay. Thats a HUGE cut. Not to mention Vet benifits. So it tends to piss us off in the military.

Now for Dems. They DO increase pay, go for vets benifits, and try and make the military more useful. If I remember i recived a 7% incease over 3 years in pay while Clinton was in .Not be like the GOP and spend millions apon millions on some bullshit idea, and give a 1% pay raise.

Sure Dems have cut back on military bases. But shit, why do we need them? We out number all military in the world save for china.

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » September 17, 2003, 4:34 pm

dude its the primaries. only one will run for president.

Yeah, no kidding. What you have to understand is that a presidential campaign in the United States is at a minimum an eighteen month long deal.

The support, air time and party contributions begin way, way before the primaries.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 17, 2003, 5:06 pm

no they don't now you're just waffling because you don't even know how elections work. I have never seen a primary run without at least 4-5 main candidates.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » September 17, 2003, 5:37 pm

Wasn't Eisenhower was a Republican?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » September 17, 2003, 5:49 pm

Once more in English.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 17, 2003, 6:15 pm

Personally I would like to see Powell come back home. I think he has already stated that he won't be part of Bush's next cabinet (but I'm not 100% on this). I would love to see him run with Clark as VP, now THAT'S a ticket!

Clark is on my companies Board of Directors and seems like a very honest guy. Sure he too has made some mistakes but he is ex-military with an education that rivals Clinton's. While I'm sure I won't agree with everything he says, as of noon today I know who I'll be voting for next year.

Marb

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » September 17, 2003, 6:46 pm

I speeke verry gud engrish doku tt~~

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 17, 2003, 6:52 pm

I used to like Powell until I saw how quickly he threw away his morals and ideals in order to please the administration he works for. Instead of being the guy that was supposed to keep the chickenhawks in check he just played along with them.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 17, 2003, 7:13 pm

kyoukan wrote:I used to like Powell until I saw how quickly he threw away his morals and ideals in order to please the administration he works for. Instead of being the guy that was supposed to keep the chickenhawks in check he just played along with them.

I think he was just surrounded by Cheney & Co., who, being lifetime politicians, were able to out-sleaze him at every opportunity and get their spin on fucking everything. I can't believe that I thought that Cheney was a good choice for VP.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » September 17, 2003, 8:12 pm

kyoukan wrote:I used to like Powell until I saw how quickly he threw away his morals and ideals in order to please the administration he works for. Instead of being the guy that was supposed to keep the chickenhawks in check he just played along with them.

Better to have Powell there at least trying to bring some sanity to the office than another fanatic.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » September 18, 2003, 3:09 am

Powell let himself get strong armed into being a puppet for the hawks. I'm not sure what I would've done if I was in his position, though. I guess he could've quit.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » September 18, 2003, 4:32 am

I think they are tired of going to war eachtime a GOP is elected to pres, and if anyone looks back...any GOP in pres has started a war..

Avoiding any techinicality of the term war, I am assuming you mean some sort of major engagement with our troups against an armed enemy.

During 8 years of Reagan there were few significant military engagements where american lives were in serious jeapardy. The invasion of Grenada was by far the most significant. Apart from that, the only significant deployment of us troops into a region of potential imminant hostility during his presidency was a couple thousand in Lebanon after the Israeli conflict in the early 80's. This was as part of a multinational peace keeping force.

Bush I had only 4 years, and had two major conflicts - The invasion of Panama (to arrest Noreaga) and the Gulf War. Neither resulted in significant casualties.

Clinton - 8 Years - 4 major incursions - Somalia, Haiti (troops ended up landing unopposed with last minute diplomacy, but the invasion for was significant), Bosnia, Kosovo. Far more than Reagan and Bush I combined.

Bush II - seems going for a record and probably the source of your misimpression. 3 Years so far - 2 major invasions. By far the most significant use of military force by a President since Vietnam (started and escalated by 2 Democrats and withdrawn from by a Republican). But given that he is the first President since Roosevelt to be in office when America was attacked, maybe we can give him a pass on that and not jump to the conclusion that his party affiliation is related to his use of the military?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 18, 2003, 8:09 am

maybe we can give him a pass on that and not jump to the conclusion that his party affiliation is related to his use of the military?

Sure, and we can relate it to his friends needing more money instead

Oh and to quote Bush himself, 'They tried to kill my dad!"

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » September 18, 2003, 10:42 am

no they don't now you're just waffling because you don't even know how elections work. I have never seen a primary run without at least 4-5 main candidates.

And the dems have how many now?

Keep it up woman. One day you may even be able to count all by yourself.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » September 18, 2003, 10:48 am

Fallanthas wrote:
no they don't now you're just waffling because you don't even know how elections work. I have never seen a primary run without at least 4-5 main candidates.
And the dems have how many now?

Keep it up woman. One day you may even be able to count all by yourself.

Do we need to sign it out for you?

\X/ |,,, O |,,| ,,n| V

I'm gonna pretend that's computer sign for moron. Of all these Democrats, only 1 will be running for president. There's no spreading out the votes. The only dilution of votes will be like last election, where some liberals vote for say, Nader, instead of Liberal. If Nader's even running again that is.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » September 18, 2003, 10:50 am

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 18, 2003, 11:03 am

Poo > Atokal.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » September 18, 2003, 11:36 am

kyoukan wrote:I used to like Powell until I saw how quickly he threw away his morals and ideals in order to please the administration he works for. Instead of being the guy that was supposed to keep the chickenhawks in check he just played along with them.

I don't think you should be too hard on Powell. He pretty much single-handedly convinced Bush that he should go to the U.N. last winter to seek unilateral support for military action against Iraq, efforts that went in vain due to France's veto (for better or worse). He worked his ass off, and really, he is the only one in the administration who did try to keep the warmongers in line. Time and time again though, all his efforts were in vain for one reason or another (usually because Wolfie and co. just had toomany voices on their side).

He has stated that if Bush, Jr. runs again, he will not be part of his staff. I think as a former military person, his mindset was that he must do what he thought was right, but ultimately, he felt obligated to serve his commander-in-chief and finish the job...retiring as soon as possible thereafter.

The worst part is, Powell is the kind of intelligent, charismatic and dilligent person one would want as a leader, but the American system of politics does not allow these people to filter to the top often.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 18, 2003, 11:52 am

I agree completely Toshira.. good post

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 18, 2003, 12:02 pm

Toshira wrote:
kyoukan wrote:I used to like Powell until I saw how quickly he threw away his morals and ideals in order to please the administration he works for. Instead of being the guy that was supposed to keep the chickenhawks in check he just played along with them.
I don't think you should be too hard on Powell. He pretty much single-handedly convinced Bush that he should go to the U.N. last winter to seek unilateral support for military action against Iraq, efforts that went in vain due to France's veto (for better or worse). He worked his ass off, and really, he is the only one in the administration who did try to keep the warmongers in line. Time and time again though, all his efforts were in vain for one reason or another (usually because Wolfie and co. just had toomany voices on their side).

He has stated that if Bush, Jr. runs again, he will not be part of his staff. I think as a former military person, his mindset was that he must do what he thought was right, but ultimately, he felt obligated to serve his commander-in-chief and finish the job...retiring as soon as possible thereafter.

The worst part is, Powell is the kind of intelligent, charismatic and dilligent person one would want as a leader, but the American system of politics does not allow these people to filter to the top often.

Powell would easily be the best president our country ever has a chance to vote into office. But people who think with race first like Cartalas and Kyoukan will never allow it to happen.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » September 18, 2003, 12:08 pm

You know I used to think that too Kylere, but I honestly think if he ran he would win, regardless of race. The intellectuals to average iq Americans generally dont have a problem with a Powell running and that's most of the voters anyways. It's the dumb below average red necks that would have a problem with it, and they are too stupid to get out and vote for the most part anyway.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 18, 2003, 12:40 pm

Yeah if only I was enlightened like you kylere.

omg redneck is a racial slur omg thread over rot in hell you nazi

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » September 18, 2003, 12:42 pm

It's not just the rednecks though, I am willing to bet the elderly would have a problem too. They are far too subborn to budge on things like this and they vote in droves.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » September 18, 2003, 12:46 pm

Stupidity would cancel them out though. For every 5 stubborn old rednecks that would vote against him cause he is black, you have 5 old stubborn blacks/hispanics that will vote for him ONLY because he is black.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » September 18, 2003, 12:56 pm

I'm not talking about old rednecks, I'm talking about old ignorants that are from everywhere. And one side greatly outnumbers the other you speak of as counterbalance

Fallanthas · Post by **Fallanthas** » September 18, 2003, 1:01 pm

I wish you non-US folk would bother to read a goddamn post before you open your mouths.

I understand its a primary. What you can't seem to grasp is that parties start backing the favorites and pouring money into campaigns well before the primaries ever take place.

Either spend some time in the US so you have a clue what the fuck you are talking about or

SHUT

THE

FUCK

UP

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 18, 2003, 1:02 pm

I have a feeling that if a black presidential candidate actually made it through the primaries, the dumb-ass rednecks would muster all of the mental energy they can to go a vote against him. It wouldn't matter who the other choice was, as long as he wasn't black.