Does he expect people to believe this horseshit?

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 27, 2003, 4:02 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Forthe wrote:It seems you are doing such a good job extending my life expectency that I'll probably live longer than you and spend less on health care doing so.
Of course you also get quite a few of those dollars from US residents and other tourists paying the exorbitant taxes on canadian goods. You might spend less, but you in most likelihood cost more to treat.

That doesn't really make sense Kilmoll. Revenue source does not affect the cost associated with a purchase. i.e. It doesn't matter if CompanyA signs your check our CompanyB signs your check or you get 2 checks from both, that 7$ movie ticket is still going to cost you $7.

I'm kind of curious now tho. The US spends 77.5% more per capita on health care than Canada. A significant portion of the US population doesn't have any health insurance (something like 40 million??).

So where is the money going?

Post by **Sylvus** » August 27, 2003, 4:08 pm

Well, we do pay a whole cockload more for prescription drugs than you guys do. Also, how many of those 40 million are still paying for some sort of drugs or healthcare without the aid of insurance? Both of those could be factors in pushing the US up higher than Canada.

How are those figures measured, anyway? Is that per capita expense the total dollar amount that is spent by each person (on average) on health insurance, taxes to cover health insurance/costs (or however Canadian health care works), prescription drugs, additional out of pocket medical expenses?

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 27, 2003, 4:14 pm

Forthe wrote: It seems you are doing such a good job extending my life expectency that I'll probably live longer than you and spend less on health care doing so.

Please, using life expectancy isn't exactly indicative of measuring quality of healthcare. Sure, if the life expectancy is 62, that's one thing, but the difference of 2 years can be accounted for all kinds of things. Do Canadians have better diets, do they smoke less, do they live with less pollution, do they generally live with less stress, etc etc.

When it comes to pioneering medicine, I'm sure a lot of countries chip in. Because of the nature of medicine in the US, I'm willing to bet advances in medicine in the US, at least, parallel most any other country. At least.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 27, 2003, 4:18 pm

Forthe wrote:I'm kind of curious now tho. The US spends 77.5% more per capita on health care than Canada. A significant portion of the US population doesn't have any health insurance (something like 40 million??).

So where is the money going?

Where do you get your dollar figures from? Do those dollars represent charges billed to patients by hospitals? Your conclusion is based off of something far too general for what you're trying to surmise.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 27, 2003, 4:36 pm

Chidoro wrote:
Forthe wrote: It seems you are doing such a good job extending my life expectency that I'll probably live longer than you and spend less on health care doing so.
Please, using life expectancy isn't exactly indicative of measuring quality of healthcare. Sure, if the life expectancy is 62, that's one thing, but the difference of 2 years can be accounted for all kinds of things. Do Canadians have better diets, do they smoke less, do they live with less pollution, do they generally live with less stress, etc etc.

Agreed. But it was in response to:

Fallanthas wrote:And your life expectancy would be much shorter, sir.

So it was kinda funny.

Chidoro wrote:[When it comes to pioneering medicine, I'm sure a lot of countries chip in. Because of the nature of medicine in the US, I'm willing to bet advances in medicine in the US, at least, parallel most any other country. At least.

I'd imagine it surpasses most every country and is a major contributor to the world's medical knowledge. A lot of other countries are as well.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 27, 2003, 4:39 pm

Chidoro wrote:
Forthe wrote:I'm kind of curious now tho. The US spends 77.5% more per capita on health care than Canada. A significant portion of the US population doesn't have any health insurance (something like 40 million??).

So where is the money going?
Where do you get your dollar figures from? Do those dollars represent charges billed to patients by hospitals? Your conclusion is based off of something far too general for what you're trying to surmise.

http://www.who.int/country/can/en/
http://www.who.int/country/usa/en/

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 27, 2003, 4:59 pm

My assumption was based on those being figures of how much people were paying for health care. Once you posted your sources' links I see that is not the case.

We overpay for services in the U.S. People will scam insurance companies anytime because it won't cost them a dime. Not that Canada has the greatest system in the world either, as some people may never visit a doctor and are paying for people who go just for the hell of it. Until you can come up with the perfect solution, just deal with it.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 27, 2003, 5:08 pm

Congrats, you win at linking the internet.

Where do THEY get their figures from. Do they get it from hospital charges, do they get it from hospital costs (which is impossible because it's not released information), do they get it from providers?

Seriously, you linked utterly useless information. You're going to have to do better than that to prove anything. What are they saying identical procedures cost(or charged or billed) in each country? What's the average length of stay for those identical procedures? Why would one person stay longer for the same thing in both countries (not to mention two different hospitals w/in the same country).

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 27, 2003, 5:37 pm

Chidoro wrote:Congrats, you win at linking the internet.

Where do THEY get their figures from. Do they get it from hospital charges, do they get it from hospital costs (which is impossible because it's not released information), do they get it from providers?

Seriously, you linked utterly useless information. You're going to have to do better than that to prove anything. What are they saying identical procedures cost(or charged or billed) in each country? What's the average length of stay for those identical procedures? Why would one person stay longer for the same thing in both countries (not to mention two different hospitals w/in the same country).

Check out the "Key Health Expenditures Indicators" on each page. From there you can click a link to get a list of WHO Collaborating Centres for each country.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 27, 2003, 5:45 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:My assumption was based on those being figures of how much people were paying for health care. Once you posted your sources' links I see that is not the case.

We overpay for services in the U.S. People will scam insurance companies anytime because it won't cost them a dime. Not that Canada has the greatest system in the world either, as some people may never visit a doctor and are paying for people who go just for the hell of it. Until you can come up with the perfect solution, just deal with it.

Some people may never have to call 911, need assistance from the police, have their house catch on fire and need assistance from the fire department. Yet everyone pays for it.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 27, 2003, 7:10 pm

As long as you define freedom as "toeing the Baathist Party line," there is no denying it.

I define freedom as women being able to work, women being able to walk outside without a threat of being raped/shot/kidnapped, students being able to attend universities, people not having to stay at home defending their homes from thieves, being able to eat, having electricity, having water, having gas... want em to go on?

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 27, 2003, 7:42 pm

Forthe wrote: Check out the "Key Health Expenditures Indicators" on each page. From there you can click a link to get a list of WHO Collaborating Centres for each country.

I did, it's still irrelevant. Just stop trying to push your site as a bible and take it from someone who has worked in the field for some time. That site doesn't say anything. It doesn't effectively measure the difference between costs of different countries, and doesn't represent a true cost of anything.

I will just reiterate, cost does not equal billed does not equal charged. What you were given was useless in comparing actual healthcare costs.

So don't be smug. The foundation for this argument is incorrect and you're being told so by someone who has been in the business for over 12 years

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 27, 2003, 7:49 pm

Chidoro wrote:
Forthe wrote: Check out the "Key Health Expenditures Indicators" on each page. From there you can click a link to get a list of WHO Collaborating Centres for each country.
I did, it's still irrelevant. Just stop trying to push your site as a bible and take it from someone who has worked in the field for some time. That site doesn't say anything. It doesn't effectively measure the difference between costs of different countries, and doesn't represent a true cost of anything.

I will just reiterate, cost does not equal billed does not equal charged. What you were given was useless in comparing actual healthcare costs.

So don't be smug. The foundation for this argument is incorrect and you're being told so by someone who has been in the business for over 12 years

Go argue with the WHO and CDC (the source), their figures not mine.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 27, 2003, 7:55 pm

I don't need to argue with them. You are using it as something that means something.

And for someone who tells people to read a little more inside and take some information from someone more inside, you have a marvelous propensity to use black and white figures that don't mean anything as your basis for an argument when it suits your little unfounded assumption.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 27, 2003, 8:00 pm

Chidoro wrote:I don't need to argue with them. You are using it as something that means something.

And for someone who tells people to read a little more inside and take some information from someone more inside, you have a marvelous propensity to use black and white figures that don't mean anything as your basis for an argument when it suits your little unfounded assumption.

WHO Collaborting Centre for Public Health Systems and Practice
Director / Head : Dr Paul HALVERSON

Address : Public Health Program Office (PHPO)
Division of Public Health Systems (DPHS)
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
4770 Buford Highway NE, Mailstop K-39
Atlanta, GA 30341
USA

I accept that as an authority on the subject.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 27, 2003, 8:01 pm

Then you are someone that doesn't understand anything about business or the numbers that go into them.

Thx hypocrite

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 27, 2003, 8:09 pm

Fuck what do you need as a source? The source is your own fucking government. Since you seem to know more than they do maybe the CDC has some conspiracy going on where they lie about how much money they spend on health care.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 27, 2003, 9:39 pm

And since when did you start to believe cold hard numbers from our government?

I'm telling you that the numbers don't mean anything by themselves.

Fuck you and your ignorance. It seems to come in spurts when it happens to suit you.

I'm saying that hospitals don't disclose what they spend in cost to anyone, not even providers. That can only mean that the source is getting info that is just a tad skewed. And by "tad" I mean that the numbers you are quoting can be at least 3.3 times higher than the actual cost

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » August 27, 2003, 10:08 pm

WHO is not part of the U.S. Government. Center for Disease Control which may have provided them with some of the numbers is. I poked around a bit on the CDC web site. Not sure if this is any more useful but try the following link, it looks a little more detailed. Haven't had a chance to look over it myself though.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/hexpense.htm

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 27, 2003, 11:09 pm

Seems like someone in this topic believes only the things he wants to from the U.S. Govt. oh the irony.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 27, 2003, 11:13 pm

Why is that ironic? I consider it more pathetic when people like you believe every word they say.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 28, 2003, 7:35 am

I have in the past quoted figures from the US Department of Energy also. I believe it was about the size of Iraq's oil reserves.

I had no problem accepting those numbers either as I do not see a motivation for them not to be accurate (in either case).

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 28, 2003, 8:25 am

I have some questions, Chidoro since you seem to be an expert.

Is there an accurate source at all on how much the average person spends on health care?

If so, please link, if not, is it possible for anyone to compile the information necessary to tell us the numbers these links "attempt" to provide?

And finally, are you arguing that canadians spend more money on health care? This is actually what this argument is about, isn't it? Forthe claims canadians, on average, spend less on health care and get better health care. I tend to agree, are you disputing this, and if so, can you support your argument with statistics, or even with logic?

I see you nitpicking his argument, and I can do that too, but I don't see you disputing it.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 28, 2003, 10:31 am

You're correct. I'm not saying that healthcare is better or that US actually spends less/more per person. I am saying that while you can use that site to get a fairly accurate number of doctors per 100k (employee records suffice), you can't do the same for the dollars spent per person.

The reason is that you don't know what "expenditures" actually means.

Does it mean what health carriers paid? If so, you're not getting an accurate amount because what each carriers pays to the hospital varies from carrier to carrier. The larger the carrier, typically, the less the amount they need to pay for services. In addition, a carrier can deny certain charges if they deem the services inappropriate. Why did a person stay that fifth day in ICU if the medical records state he was stable? Should s/he have been discharged or lowered to a standard med/surg room? This kind of thing happens very frequently.

Does it mean what the patient pays? If so, that is terribly off. Does that person have insurance? Does their insurance pay for certain procedures? If they don't have insurance, do they get charity care? Patients in different hospitals are charged different amounts but they almost always pay significantly more for services than a carrier does. It seems counter-intuitive, but it's very true.

Does it measure hospital costs? If so, why was it disclosed if it's not supposed to be? Why did a particular hospital choose a specific vendor? Is there a major blood shortage in a large region that causes prices for normal everyday items such as said blood to go through the roof? Are there different items used for similar procedures that cost different amounts such as the difference between regular stents used in angioplasty or special drug coated stents that cost nearly twice as much? Are patent laws different between countries? If so, does one country have the benefit of less expensive drugs? Are property values much higher in one country? If so, the cost to house a patient increases. Does one country tend to have more insurance requirements or legal expenses or natural resource costs etc etc. While the "expenditures" amount may take into account the variations between currencies, does it take into account any of the other issues mentioned above?

The average "expenditure" doesn't tell me anything. It's a useless number in and of itself. You're correct in saying I'm not arguing whether one country has the whole concept of healthcare more correct than the other or if one offers better services than the other. I'm saying that the dollar amount given means nothing. It's not really a debate, I'm just explaining how it is. It gets ugly when people think I'm actually debating when I'm just explaining the way it is.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 28, 2003, 10:46 am

OK, thanks!

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » August 31, 2003, 6:48 am

Bush needs to be impeached. He has caused more chaos within America and around the world than any president in my lifetime. He has lied to the entire world MULTIPLE times about things that have caused thousands of innocent deaths(our/allied troops included) yet we impeached Clinton for lying about a blowjob?

This is ridiculous. I don't understand how ANYONE can stand for this shit. He and his puppeteering cronies need to be fucking ousted.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » August 31, 2003, 11:13 am

Keverian FireCry wrote:Bush needs to be impeached. He has caused more chaos within America and around the world than any president in my lifetime. He has lied to the entire world MULTIPLE times about things that have caused thousands of innocent deaths(our/allied troops included) yet we impeached Clinton for lying about a blowjob?

This is ridiculous. I don't understand how ANYONE can stand for this shit. He and his puppeteering cronies need to be fucking ousted.

of course he wont be, fucking up the world balance is no call for impeachment...maybe if he got some head from some girl, THEN we could impeach him

americans seriously need to wake up and see the shit hes stirring up