13k dead from a heat wave? WTF?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » August 21, 2003, 12:57 am

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/conte ... _page.html

I just don't understand how so many people could die in a well established country like France.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » August 21, 2003, 1:24 am

Not as much AC around and perhaps bad medical care. Im not sure if the health care in france is all that great. Ive heard some horror stories about it. I guess I am also wondering if there is a particular age group that is dying. Elderly people die often during the summer because of the heat, infants and young children can get baked good too...I would be suprised if a large ammount were healthy adults though.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 21, 2003, 2:11 am

you live in a land of plenty so you can't fathom it. most of europe is a very modern society but they lack adequate natural resources and even basic equipment that you take for granted.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 21, 2003, 8:20 am

There are always deaths in a heatwave. The French are saying that of that total figure only(!) about 5000? were above the normal level of deaths. Apparently it was mainly frail elderly people who couldn't cope with 40c temperatures.

Most european countries have set high temperature records multiple times in the last decade. We're simply not used to getting past the low 30's celsius and even that is "damn hot" when you live in a temperate zone.
Almost nobody (certainly nobody I've ever known) has air conditioning in their homes. Air conditioned cars are becoming the norm now but that's a fairly new development (again, I've never owned a car with AC). In the UK we have real problems because a lot of our infrastructure just isn't built to cope with that kind of heat e.g our trains ran at half speed for a week because our tracks are laid to cope with heat expansion up to the low 30s celsius. Once past that there's the risk of buckling.

I guess the main thing is that most people simply forget. Yeah we had 7-10 days of 35+ heat but now we're back to the usual mid-20s, slightly overcast days and nights cool enough to get the duvet out again.

most of europe is a very modern society but they lack adequate natural resources and even basic equipment that you take for granted

Suuuuure. . .

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 21, 2003, 8:22 am

I never knew how priveliged I was until I visited Europe. In the west we tend to take simple things like running water, toilets, and plumbing for granted. I never will again. You would think that since Europe is so mature (in terms of age) they would have the basics down pat, but they don't. The west is spoiled compared to the rest of the planet, seriously. There are exceptions, Switzerland, Japan, etc, but for the most part, we do not realize how good we have things.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 21, 2003, 8:27 am

Eh not sure if I would say France (or other Western Europe countries) lack basic equipment. It is all a question of need. A huge majority of the time AC isn't needed in Europe, and very very few people have it. Let's just say we are not as spoiled as Americans when it comes to AC during the summer (we much rather enjoy the normal warm weather heh). Another thing to remember is that the population in Europe is fairly old (age wise, the American population is slowly getting older as well on average), and that old people.. well.. die easier.

And lastly.. there has actually been a shortage on electricity in several European countries due to the weather the last couple of years. Extremely cold winters, little rain etc has depleted the resources needed to create electricity. Hell I know in Norway the electricity prices tripled at least last winter due to it.

Imagine all of Northern USA without AC with the population of Florida (aka old people heh) and 110 degrees weather for 3 months after having had a winter with temperatures of -50.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 21, 2003, 8:38 am

vn_Tanc wrote:Suuuuure. . .

why are you agreeing with me and disagreeing in the same post?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 21, 2003, 8:57 am

why are you agreeing with me and disagreeing in the same post?

Because we're discussing France which lacks neither natural resources nor basic equipment. Neither does most of Europe - certainly not central and northern europe.

I'd also love to hear of these places in europe where running water and flushing toilets are so uncommon. Yeah the french like to shit into holes in the ground but that's cos they like it not cos they have to.

It's also not like Europeans lack air con technology etc it's just that until recently it's been pointless. We've never had enough heat to really require it just as we don't get enough sun to make solar panels worth the effort.

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » August 21, 2003, 9:05 am

That's ok Tanc Kyoukan knows everything. Europe sure does lack resources and basic equipment.... Moron.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 21, 2003, 9:47 am

This discussion was going quite well enough without any interjections from you and the rest of the lets-stalk-Kyoucan brigade, thanks.

Burke · Post by **Burke** » August 21, 2003, 9:54 am

Adex that 13.6k dead is in metric. It works out to about 8.34k standard.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 21, 2003, 10:36 am

There are exceptions, Switzerland, Japan, etc, but for the most part, we do not realize how good we have things.

Ahh, you mean those countries who have embraced Capitalism to the extent we have?

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 21, 2003, 10:44 am

Wasn't really trying to make a political statement, just an economical one. I can't tell if you were trying to be facecious or not.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » August 21, 2003, 10:58 am

Maybe they didn't get the memo about the global warming. Someone should send it by carrier pigeon at once!

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 21, 2003, 10:59 am

Not at all. I have been to Japan so I know it is as well off as we are. I have not been to Switzerland. It was just the thought I had when you lumped those three countries together, since they are probably the three least Socialist nations over the last half century, so it was interesting to note they also had similar standards of living. I might do some searching later on to see if there are other corolaries of wealth as well.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 21, 2003, 10:59 am

vn_Tanc wrote:This discussion was going quite well enough without any interjections from you and the rest of the lets-stalk-Kyoucan brigade, thanks.

Gee I was looking over this topic and there was not one post from the Lets Stalk Kyoukan brigade so please look before you open you fish n' Chips eating mouth.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 21, 2003, 11:01 am

Some of you need to learn how do distuingish your mouth from your ass.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 21, 2003, 11:08 am

Keverian FireCry wrote:Not as much AC around and perhaps bad medical care. Im not sure if the health care in france is all that great. Ive heard some horror stories about it. I guess I am also wondering if there is a particular age group that is dying. Elderly people die often during the summer because of the heat, infants and young children can get baked good too...I would be suprised if a large ammount were healthy adults though.

High temperatures + little AC = Old people dying.

I have AC in my vehicle but none at home. There is no need for it. Highs here are low-mid 30s. If we were hit with 40+ for a prolonged period I would expect the same effects here.

PS. I recall reading France's health care system was ranked as the best in the world.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » August 21, 2003, 11:12 am

Yes Forthe, you would probably be right, unfortunately there are a couple of mongoloid inbred spastics here who seem happy to vomit their own ignorance upon us.

Hi!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 21, 2003, 11:16 am

"I have AC in my vehicle but none at home. There is no need for it."

Im sure thats what the 13K+ were thinking.

And look what it got them French Fried.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 21, 2003, 11:21 am

i think you mean Freedom Fried...

at any rate, if you know anybody who lives in Seattle or Cape Cod, it is on the same latitude as Northern Europe, and many people there don't have AC. It simply is not necessary.

I lived in Woods Hole one summer, and didnt have AC. My uncle in Seattle didnt have AC until a few years ago when he built a brand new house.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 21, 2003, 11:23 am

It depends on what you mean by "ranked." The Wolrd Health Organization ranked France very highly, but that ranking included things like "equal distribution of the costs of health care" and infant mortality rate (or maybe it was average mortality age - I forget). I don't recall all the factors, but I do remember thinking that Socialist countries would score well on their ranking system, regardless of actual quality. I'll do some fishing around to find it.

How you want to measure "best" will obviously determine the outcome of your ranking. The U.S., unarguably, has the "best" healthcare system in the world - for those that can afford it. The question of whether to consider the "for those that can aford it" or not will retty much determine the outcome.

Just as an example, the one thing that popped out when I read the report a while back was the (what I thought was odd) high ranking of places like Cuba and Columbia. When you look at the dicreate factors that made up the report, however, you see that both rank near the top on the "equality of distribution" factor where the US ranks near the bottom. Tak it for what you will, since the value one puts on such things is going to differ depending on ones political/economic beliefs, but it is important to know why these countries are ranked among the "best."

More to the point, though - it is not stupid for France not to have Air Conditioning. I lived in Los Angeles for 5 years. For part of that time I lived on the beach and had no air conditioning. It was fine. You need what you need. Europe's climate might not demand AC most of the time (we'll their climate combined with their cultural tolleration for stinky folks

). If that's the case, then there going through a record hot spell makes the deaths not all that suprising. Old people die all the time in the US from the same thing. When I lived in Chicago, it was hard to go a Summer with out hearing about the tragedy of a bunch of old folks wthout AC dying during a particularly bad hot spell.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » August 21, 2003, 11:48 am

You know that's just something I have a hard time imagining.

I've always lived in places where it was hot during the summer.

On the side, AC is very recent invention. We've gone millenia without it.

Yet now, we somehow die at high rates due to a lack of it?

Did people suddenly forget to turn on an occilating fan and drink plenty of water?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 21, 2003, 11:54 am

its really just the old farts, who hundreds of years ago would have been dead already anyways =).

yeah i'm with you Adex. I can't imagine how it used to be down here in the south. My great grandfather helped build the railroad down the coast of Florida to Miami. in 1911 or so i think. I guarantee you it was hot as a motherfucker doing that.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 21, 2003, 11:55 am

Adex_Xeda wrote:You know that's just something I have a hard time imagining.

I've always lived in places where it was hot during the summer.

On the side, AC is very recent invention. We've gone millenia without it.

Yet now, we somehow die at high rates due to a lack of it?

Did people suddenly forget to turn on an occilating fan and drink plenty of water?

-We aren't talking about young people who can bear it with just a fan and water.

-In the past people didn't live as long as they do now.

Edit: Voro is fast :/

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » August 21, 2003, 11:56 am

Here are some links to some articles that will help explain the WHO rankings.

http://society.guardian.co.uk/nhsperfor ... 33,00.html

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=601

http://www.who.int/health-systems-perfo ... murray.pdf

A visit to http://www.who.org and search their site for World Healthcare Rankings and you can get a collection of PDF documents that define their methodology.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » August 21, 2003, 11:58 am

well i take that back...when i lived in Miami, my car didnt have AC. i remember commuting to my summer research project in South Miami, sitting in traffic for an hour in August without air conditioning...i'd say it must have been what, 130 degrees in my car? hehe

Arsecn · Post by **Arsecn** » August 21, 2003, 6:31 pm

Who the fuck is Celsius?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 21, 2003, 6:35 pm

Somebody with enough sense to make a good system

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 21, 2003, 7:31 pm

I dont use this word lightly but the French are a bunch of pussies. Take a look at the high/low temperatures for Phoenix last month (July 2003) This isn't a dry heat, we have the monsoon season kicking in with humidity. There are poor people here w/out AC. We dont have thousands of people dying. Pussies! The French don't need a war to die. A Heat Attack is enough to do them in.

Notice on July 15th that the LOW for the night was 96 degrees. We had 10 days where the LOW was 90 or above. The 115-117's during the day is damn hot but we function and go about our business. You don't think some people have no AC in their cars and drive in a metal box during the day with temps 115+? Yet they live! Why do we need a heatwave of 122+ to start killing people off when the French are keeling over at 80 degree lows at night? Pussies!

PHOENIX, AZ (JULY 2003)
DAY-MAX-MIN
1 109 84
2 109 86
3 110 84
4 113 82
5 111 86
6 110 86
7 110 84
8 109 84
9 113 84
10 110 83
11 108 87
12 112 91
13 114 91
14 116 93
15 115 96
16 117 91
17 104 93
18 104 87
19 107 90
20 112 90
21 110 87
22 108 85
23 110 91
24 106 89
25 108 90
26 108 87
27 108 87
28 98 84
29 101 83
30 97 76
31 102 83

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 21, 2003, 7:44 pm

I'm not saying Europe is some backwards dark ages society, but they do lack the resources for when the weather gets too hot like it was in the last few weeks. I've been to France in the summer; even in Paris there are very few places to get out of the heat. Even a lot of the large shopping centers and restaurants I went to were absolutely fucking sweltering. There was literally almost no place to get out of the heat.

North Americans have a lot of shit they take for granted.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 21, 2003, 8:27 pm

Hi I am Winnow, I am too stupid to understand that people get used to living in a certain climate, and that they are more resistant to heat then!

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » August 22, 2003, 12:06 am

Well the US army adapted well to the weather in Iraq.Most of the people over there are from up north/ga/ or even Germany. Yet they didnt wear light weighted clothes or anything else. Its called not being stupid and drinking water. You drink water, you wont be hurt by heat.

I only wish the US had that bad of a heat wave. If only all the old people *baby boomers* would all start dieing off. Maybe well have some social securty income when I retire!

Also treating people with heat effects. Either they can rest in a cool bathtub,or have a IV stuck in their arm to rehydrate them. Its not some mystrious fucking sience to keep yourself cooled off.Im sure some doctors over there can pass along the idea of IV hydration to help people suffering from dehydration.

Pahreyia · Post by **Pahreyia** » August 22, 2003, 12:45 am

They died bevause they didn't invest in good 'ol American air conditioners, bought at Sears.

Rivera Bladestrike · Post by **Rivera Bladestrike** » August 22, 2003, 2:52 am

Kelshara wrote:Hi I am Winnow, I am too stupid to understand that people get used to living in a certain climate, and that they are more resistant to heat then!

110+ degree heat is 110+ degree heat no matter who is experiencing it. I agree with Winnow's statement that the french are pussies.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » August 22, 2003, 3:23 am

what? are you denying that people don't adapt to the type of climate they are used to living in?

Trek · Post by **Trek** » August 22, 2003, 4:22 am

Get some fire resist lewt.

I think we have a story where the French sold their AC units to Iraq, but it was hearsay.

We are still searching for them

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 22, 2003, 4:54 am

Listen to the fuckin tards calling people pussies.

I read up some more on this last night. 10,000 deaths more than average in the first 3 weeks of August. The VAST MAJORITY were frail elderly people (probably kept alive by that world class healthcare system) - not fit young soldiers for instance.

Here's a little snippet for you: If you live in a temperate climate it takes your body 3 weeks to adjust it's heat-regulation system to higher temperatures.

Maybe they didn't get the memo about the global warming

I've deliberately avoided touching this subject as there are several people here who insist there is no such thing.

Gee I was looking over this topic and there was not one post from the Lets Stalk Kyoukan brigade so please look before you open you fish n' Chips eating mouth

OH NOS THE FISH AND CHIP GAMBIT!! Whatever will I do? Oh I know. First I'll show you the post I was referring to:

That's ok Tanc Kyoukan knows everything. Europe sure does lack resources and basic equipment.... Moron.

From Hammerstalker. If that isn't a Kyo-stalking post you lack the mental facilities to notice one. Which is unsurprising and leads me to my second point: Shut your fucking face, dolt.

The U.S., unarguably, has the "best" healthcare system in the world - for those that can afford it

Laff.

Hammerstalker PE · Post by **Hammerstalker PE** » August 22, 2003, 5:43 am

No Tanc fuck you moron. If Kyoukan needed you to defend her she is far worse off than I thought. I do not stalk Kyoukan as much as she chooses to stalk others. If you look back through the history of her posts they go in this order.

1. Someone or Kyoukan starts a thread.
2. Kyoukan states her opinion. (Usually well written)
3. Someone disagrees with her posting facts to back up their position.
4. Kyoukan then turns the debate to a personal attack
5. She gets flamed back and said thread dies at some point.
6. Kyoukan remembers those that flame her and jumps all over them in every thread there after.

Stalker umm ya ok. More like showing disdain for her.

Further if I stalked Kyoukan I would post after every post she makes which I don't. So kindly fuck off.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » August 22, 2003, 6:05 am

Pretty much all your posts are about her though.
Just like that last one.

I don't recall you EVER posting to agree with me until I disagreed with Kyo then you pop up with a post that essentially says "yeah Tanc, she's a thicky, eh, eh??".

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » August 22, 2003, 7:48 am

Well the US army adapted well to the weather in Iraq.Most of the people over there are from up north/ga/ or even Germany. Yet they didnt wear light weighted clothes or anything else. Its called not being stupid and drinking water. You drink water, you wont be hurt by heat.

I expect the US Army to have a similar program as the Scandinavian soldiers who went down there which basicly forcefeeds the soldiers water and kept them fairly still until their bodies adapted. And there is a slight difference between young, fit soldiers and 80+ years old sick people.

I only wish the US had that bad of a heat wave. If only all the old people *baby boomers* would all start dieing off. Maybe well have some social securty income when I retire!

I only wish the world would get a disease that killed stupid narrowminded idiots, would be a much better place to live then.

110+ degree heat is 110+ degree heat no matter who is experiencing it. I agree with Winnow's statement that the french are pussies.

You truly are an idiot aren't you? You can't see the difference between somebody living in warm weather constantly and a huge weather change? Oh yeah, 110+ degrees in Phoenix is the same as 110+ degrees in Cleveland!

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » August 22, 2003, 8:24 am

Kelshara wrote:
I only wish the US had that bad of a heat wave. If only all the old people *baby boomers* would all start dieing off. Maybe well have some social securty income when I retire!
I only wish the world would get a disease that killed stupid narrowminded idiots, would be a much better place to live then.

Well said, there have been some pretty stupid posts on this topic so far. That one and calling someone a p*ssy for dying in sweltering heat take the (bah! filter!) c a k e though.

How many people do you think would die if equatorial African countries suddenly had a cold front come through for a week that was 20 below...with all those HEATERS that every household buys, people would stay pretty toasty I'd bet. No deaths at all.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » August 22, 2003, 9:29 am

How many people do you think would die if equatorial African countries suddenly had a cold front come through for a week that was 20 below...with all those HEATERS that every household buys, people would stay pretty toasty I'd bet. No deaths at all.

Heh, 20 below, try only 50F. It happened in India a couple of months ago. They had a "cold snap" of 40-50 ish temps and a ton of folks bit it.

Yet they didnt wear light weighted clothes or anything else. Its called not being stupid and drinking water. You drink water, you wont be hurt by heat.

So can we toss you into a fire w/ a bottle of Poland Spring then?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » August 22, 2003, 9:29 am

vn_Tanc wrote:Pretty much all your posts are about her though.
Just like that last one.

I don't recall you EVER posting to agree with me until I disagreed with Kyo then you pop up with a post that essentially says "yeah Tanc, she's a thicky, eh, eh??".

Run for the hills Hammer!!! The Red Coats are comming The Red Coats are comming.

The problem in France was it was not a dry heat as in Arizona.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » August 22, 2003, 12:09 pm

This time of year in Texas I'd be giddy if we had a freak snow storm.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » August 22, 2003, 6:35 pm

Cartalas wrote:The problem in France was it was not a dry heat as in Arizona.

He just said it was the monsoon season and was high humidity every day.

And no it's not a technical monsoon, but it's the wet season. Before some nitpicking retard comes in thinking he'll win five points for quoting the definition of monsoon.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 23, 2003, 12:03 am

Kelshara is a pussy!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » August 23, 2003, 12:13 am

Kelshara wrote:Hi I am Winnow, I am too stupid to understand that people get used to living in a certain climate, and that they are more resistant to heat then!

I'm heat resistant! It's a wonder I survive on my ski trips wearing only the winter gear that the natives wear!

Lets see...I lived in Switzerland for a year and then moved directly to Las Vegas....suppose I should have gotten a T-Shirt or something for surviving this massive climate change without breaking stride. You know...old people come to visit here from cooler climates..we still dont have people dropping off..this is a popular place for retirement as well...old people in Sun City are alive and kicking.

I'm talkling about temperatures almost 20 degrees higher as well. 80 degrees at night shouldn't be killing people off unless they're pussies as previously stated.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » August 23, 2003, 3:49 am

Wow, Winnow, you moved from the desert to the mountain and you didn't die? You are definitely not a pussy.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » August 23, 2003, 7:45 am

Winnow don't be retarded. I know you like the fact that it was only 80 at night, but I don't think it was the 80 that was killing anyone.

And we are all pussies compared to the iraqis. 50+ C (122+ F) with no power or water at times. Strange how we never hear of the deaths from the heat there.