U.S. Troops Shoot Dead Reuters Cameraman in Iraq

[Winnow]

Eyewitnesses said soldiers on an American tank shot at Mazen Dana, 43, as he filmed outside Abu Ghraib prison in western Baghdad which had earlier come under a mortar attack.


Dana's last pictures show a U.S. tank driving toward him outside the prison walls. Several shots ring out from the tank, and Dana's camera falls to the ground.


The U.S. military acknowledged on Sunday that its troops had "engaged" a Reuters cameraman, saying they had thought his camera was a rocket propelled grenade launcher.


"Army soldiers engaged an individual they thought was aiming an RPG at them. It turned out to be a Reuters cameraman," Navy Captain Frank Thorp, a spokesman for the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told Reuters in Washington.

If I saw this from a distance I'd probably shoot it as well. It's regrettable that he was killed but a war journalist's job is extremely hazardous and voluntary. There will probably be more of a stink from the news media as it was one of their own but in reality, friendly fire incidents are sad but expected to happen on rare occasion...kill count is up to 17 on journalists which does seem a little high but I wouldnt be pointing anything that even remotely looks like an RPG at a tank from a distance.

[kyoukan]

If I saw this from a distance I'd probably shoot it as well.

Oh totally. I mean, the guy is in the US army. It's not like you can expect him to be smart enough to tell the difference between a fucking camera and an RPG (which, by the way, is about as threatening to an abrams tank as a palestinian child with a bag of rocks).

what the fuck is it with you americans and your hair triggers.

Oh well I guess if you were scared shitless enough about Iraq attacking you in the first place it only stands to reason that you freak out and start spraying bullets when someone points a camera at you. Maybe the guy that shot him could say that he knew that one day that cameraman would be a threat to Liberty, so he pre-emptively shot him. Most americans seem to be brainless enough to fall for that one.

[Fesuni Chopsui]

For once I agree with Kyou - this is a great example of why Military Intelligence is a major oxymoron

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Unfortunately, media sources use RPG as their catch all phrase for any shoulder fired rocket. The LAW made in the US will definitely take out a tank. It will certainly cause you to have a very bad day. Having someone several hundred yards away with a device sitting on their shoulder pointing at you, and knowing you are under threat from Saddam's loyalists, you have to make a split second decision. That decision won't affect only your life....it will affect the rest of that tank crew's, as well as the individual with the device.

Trust me when I say that if it came down to you making a very fast decision under that type of stress that you would opt for self-preservation as well. It is hugely unfortunate that it turned out to be the wrong one in this case.

[Kylere]

Even if the RPG would not have crippled the M1A1, still bad practice to let people shoot at you for giggles.

[Cartalas]

Even if the RPG would not have crippled the M1A1, still bad practice to let people shoot at you for giggles.

But But the military is suppose to go up to the guy and make sure its not a RPG and while thay are at it they have to ask to see his I hate Terrorisim bumber sticker.

[Voronwë]

there are shoulder fired weapons in Iraq that can take out M1 tanks. There have been a few knocked out thusfar. Those weapons may be few and far between nowadays.

One thing though i would think the optics in a tank would be sufficient to get a good look at your target. I mean these are superexpensive machines, certainly they have some cameras with zooms and decent monitors inside.

But i can also see a US soldier easily misinterpreting that. Every day a couple soldiers are dieing from guerilla fighters, and i wouldn't want to be one of them either.

[Sionistic]

RPG

the camera above

I find it pretty hard to not be able to tell the difference, maybe extremely far away they get mixed up, i dont know the range on this weapon so im not sure how far away they would consider it a threat

[Skogen]

It's all fun and nice to just sit here and fling shit at the guy who fired on the cameraman, but think if you were him, being in that situation, and what is going on in Iraq right now. Seeing that at a distance, knowing that soldiers are being ambushed & dying everyday.....think about it. What do you think the gunner was going to do? He looks very much like he is holding a LAWS rocket at a distance, and those are deadly, even to an M1.

It's not like that Israeli soldier who ordered a cameraman to drop his camera, then immediatly after saying it, shot him in the chest.

[masteen]

Pretty easy mistake to make, IMO.

The LAW rocket launcher:


There is a reason that most mammals will instinctively flee from a tank...

[Fairweather Pure]

I would have fired a warning shot.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I would have fired a warning shot.

Would you have fired the warning shot before or after you shit yourself?

[Winnow]

Notice the similarities of the headgear:





Is this a giant crayola crayon or a rocket? In a split second, you can't tell.





Fairweather's going to give a warning shot if he see's this?

[kyoukan]

there are shoulder fired weapons in Iraq that can take out M1 tanks.

tanks or armored vehicles? because to this day only 1 M1 in history has ever been lost in a battle, and that was to a massive piece of artillery a couple of months ago.

I know of no such shoulder mounted rocket that can even come close to destroying an M1. The armor is not only too thick for it but it's designed in such a way to deflect that kind of round. the crew should be wearing headgear to protect themselves from ballistics colliding with the hull. at the very most you could score a lucky shot and maybe damage the treads.

that doesn't mean the crew shouldn't defend themselves but spraying machine gun rounds at anyone with something on their shoulder is taking it a little far. at almost any machine gun range it shouldn't take any longer than it takes to take the safety off to ascertain that the guy isn't pointing a rocket at you.

[Mort]

Its pretty easy to say all this shit sitting from the safety of your homes....I would imagine our boys in the field (Who are dying daily) see it differently. Can you fucking cut them some slack for airing on the side of caution?

Didnt think so.

I do feel bad for the guy and his family, but he IS filming in a fucking warzone... or maybe the helmet is just for looks.

[kyoukan]

Its pretty easy to say all this shit sitting from the safety of your homes....I would imagine our boys in the field (Who are dying daily) see it differently. Can you fucking cut them some slack for airing on the side of caution?

fuck no. he murdered a cameraman. he should rot in prison for the rest of his life. unfortunately his superiors will just sweep it under the rug like that cowboy asshole pilot that bombed those canadian soldiers, and that other moron that strafed a british armored vehicle.

BUT JEEZ THEIR JOBS ARE SO HARD SO ITS OK THEY KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE ONCE IN AWHILE

[Voronwë]

maybe i'm wrong Kyo, i'll look into it.

i could have sworn there was a rocket that took out an M-1 a day or two after the army entered baghdad.

i'll see if i can find out.

Yeah on April 7th an M1 tank was destroyed "by a rocket".

but that doesnt mean a shoulder fired rocket. And it probably wasnt. It was probably one of those they had rigged up in the back of a pickup.

[Winnow]

Its pretty easy to say all this shit sitting from the safety of your homes....I would imagine our boys in the field (Who are dying daily) see it differently. Can you fucking cut them some slack for airing on the side of caution?

fuck no. he murdered a cameraman. he should rot in prison for the rest of his life. unfortunately his superiors will just sweep it under the rug like that cowboy asshole pilot that bombed those canadian soldiers, and that other moron that strafed a british armored vehicle.

BUT JEEZ THEIR JOBS ARE SO HARD SO ITS OK THEY KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE ONCE IN AWHILE

Ever consider taking up journalism kyoukan? I think you'd be outstanding over there giving us great shots and impact stories.

[Cartalas]

Its pretty easy to say all this shit sitting from the safety of your homes....I would imagine our boys in the field (Who are dying daily) see it differently. Can you fucking cut them some slack for airing on the side of caution?

fuck no. he murdered a cameraman. he should rot in prison for the rest of his life. unfortunately his superiors will just sweep it under the rug like that cowboy asshole pilot that bombed those canadian soldiers, and that other moron that strafed a british armored vehicle.

BUT JEEZ THEIR JOBS ARE SO HARD SO ITS OK THEY KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE ONCE IN AWHILE

Why dont you take the camera mans place what a waste of DNA you are.

[Skogen]

Its pretty easy to say all this shit sitting from the safety of your homes....I would imagine our boys in the field (Who are dying daily) see it differently. Can you fucking cut them some slack for airing on the side of caution?

fuck no. he murdered a cameraman. he should rot in prison for the rest of his life. unfortunately his superiors will just sweep it under the rug like that cowboy asshole pilot that bombed those canadian soldiers, and that other moron that strafed a british armored vehicle.

BUT JEEZ THEIR JOBS ARE SO HARD SO ITS OK THEY KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE ONCE IN AWHILE

Once again, saying this from your chair about what you have read on the news is one thing. Being there in the situation yourself is queit another.

[Fairweather Pure]

They should put cameramen in the Army Online FPS game and deduct points if you kill them. That's a good start to making sure this never happens again.

[kyoukan]

Once again, saying this from your chair about what you have read on the news is one thing. Being there in the situation yourself is queit another.

well no I don't have people filming me very often but I doubt that I would kill anyone that tried.

cameramen walk around all the time in warzones without getting ventilated by some stupid redneck in a tank, but suddenly when it does happen it's not anybody's fault?

[Pherr the Dorf]

I don't know the nubers to this, but I do know Iraq is crawling with reporters, and any site that came under attack the previous day is a playground for them, I would imagine they have seen a great many cameras pointing at them a great many times.

[Crav]

I thought they wore those blue flack jackets and helmets to identify them as journalist. It's understandable that the soldiers would be a bit quick on the trigger after being attacked once already that day, but it's still a sad thing that it happened. Well one more to add to Bush's butcher bill.

[Cartalas]

Once again, saying this from your chair about what you have read on the news is one thing. Being there in the situation yourself is queit another.

well no I don't have people filming me very often but I doubt that I would kill anyone that tried.

cameramen walk around all the time in warzones without getting ventilated by some stupid redneck in a tank, but suddenly when it does happen it's not anybody's fault?

It was a accident Dumb ass you have to know what that is because you are reminded of it every day when you look in the mirror.

[Ashur]

It is a tragedy that this happened. Kyoukan is also a tragedy.

[kyoukan]

so he is absolved of all guilt and responsibility because it was an accident?

oh wait nevermind, look at who I'm asking.

[Winnow]

Edit: will keep the thread on topic for once.

"The party was canceled."

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I know of no such shoulder mounted rocket that can even come close to destroying an M1. The armor is not only too thick for it but it's designed in such a way to deflect that kind of round. the crew should be wearing headgear to protect themselves from ballistics colliding with the hull. at the very most you could score a lucky shot and maybe damage the treads.

The U.S. M-72 LAW can penetrate a foot of armor.



This one does not look much different at range than a TV camera does it? This particular launcher can be armed and fired on target within 5 seconds of picking it up. The report said that the cameraman and his sound guy (both of middle eastern heritage) were in a vehicle and saw the tank appraoching. They had been told to not shoot video there. When they saw the tank come, the camerman hopped out of the car and grabbed his camera and pointed it at the tank. My guess would be that they were watching this unfold and fired as soon as he pulled the camera up to his shoulder. It is a damn shame that an innocent person died, but they were told to not be there in the first place. People are going to be jumpy and accidents are going to happen.

[kyoukan]

The U.S. M-72 LAW can penetrate a foot of armor.

a foot of what armor? can it disable or destroy an M1 Abrams? and anyway, how many iraqi resistance fighters are running around with M72's and not the soviet RPGs that have been sold to them since kennedy was president?

I really don't think an M72 (that was designed in the 60s) could do much to a modern main battle tank. the M1 is about the safest place you could be on a battlefield and certainly no shoulder mounted piece of crap is going to be much of a threat.

I didn't read any article where they said they weren't allowed to film there cause there wasn't any link.

[Chmee]

M1A1's armor has a lot of resistance to HEAT rounds.

from:
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/abrams.htm
(with a little bit of formatting changes)

M1A1
Against Kinetic Energy (in mm of RHAe)
Turret 800-900
Glacis 560-590
Lower front hull 580-650

Against Chemical Energy (in mm of RHAe)
Turret 1,320-1,620
Glacis 510-1,050
Lower front hull 800-970

RHAe = Rolled Homogeneous Armor Equivalent; an equivalent RHA thickness of a given armor type against a given armor piercing ammunition or missile (i.e. Kinetic Energy penetrators, like APFSDS DU long-rod penetrators or Chemical Energy projectiles, like HEAT ammunition and ATGM's). Modern composite (Chobham) armor may be several times more efficient against Chemical Energy than RHA of the same thickness.

Not saying the crewman are at fault just because a shoulder mounted atgm is probably not going to have too much luck vs a m1a1, haven't read enough about the situation in general to make even an uninformed opinion. Just thought the data was interesting.

[Bocc]

The accident was most likely caused by human instinct, and I don't think the soldier who fired upon the cameraman should take full blame. It truly is a tragedy that an innocent person was killed, however, if he was asked not to be filming in that area, he had no business being there.

If I saw him with that camera aimed at me from a distance I probably would have let my instinct take over and fired at him too. Then again, I am an inbred, uneducated, redneck warmonger like everyone else in America is.

[kyoukan]

The M1A1 is a great tank.

It's fairly interesting to note that the M1 was originally designed in the 80s to counter the growing popularity of shoulder fired anti tank weapons like the original LAW and the soviet RPG (I think its called a Spigot).

If you look closely at an M1 you'll see the hull and turret armor is specially designed to deflect incoming ballistics so its almost impossible to score a direct hit. older tanks where bulkier, had flat armor and a higher profile and were easier to hit with small arms.

The M1 is a far cry from the pieces of shit the US fielded in WW2.

[Breagen]

Well first off M1's have been taken out before...they are not invulnerable or someshit. Just during the Gulf War only 18 Abrams tanks were taken out of service due to battle damage: nine were permanent losses, and another nine suffered repairable damage, mostly from mines.

Aside from that it is true that just about any shoulder fired round is going to have minimal if any effect on a M1 tank considering that they use steel encased depleted uranium armor. Without knowing the exact circumstances its hard to determine what options they may have had, but M1's do have the ability to make smoke screens and depending on the range and timeframe there are very good optics available to determine if something is a threat.

I personally can't pass judgement on what happened because I know I could never abide by a "let them shoot at you and than once you have asked your commander you can load your gun and shoot back" mentality if I was in the military. Regardless of whether that is just lipservice or the actual practice in the field.

[Skogen]

Oh a M1 can be disabled by a RPG. A solid hit in the tracks could break them, rendering it immobile. Also, it can be hit from the rear, which is is main weakness.

quote from http://www.channel4.com/history/microsi ... wo10d.html


"When the Americans broke into Baghdad, 4 Battalion (in the 64th Armor Regiment of the 3rd Infantry Division) lost two Abrams, one of which suffered an engine fire after being struck in the rear by rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) fire. "

[Kelshara]

Court marshal the soldier.

Then impeach Bush.

Sounds like a good strategy!

[Raistin]

tanks or armored vehicles? because to this day only 1 M1 in history has ever been lost in a battle, and that was to a massive piece of artillery a couple of months ago.

I know of no such shoulder mounted rocket that can even come close to destroying an M1. The armor is not only too thick for it but it's designed in such a way to deflect that kind of round. the crew should be wearing headgear to protect themselves from ballistics colliding with the hull. at the very most you could score a lucky shot and maybe damage the treads

From personal exp from help blowing up a M1 a AT 4 can damage it to the point where itll hurt it/disable it instantly. So there are weapons out there that can take out a M1.My main duty in my unit was Anti Tank weapons. I trained so much on it, I almost have no hearing in my right ear

http://www.ghostrecon.net/html/arms_M136.htm


As for the blue vests, from the video showing of them being shot at. They wernt wearing any that I could see. Also looking at someone jumping out of a car with something on their shoulder, you can not tell how long the object is. If I was on the other end looking down and saw someone jumping out of a car with something that looked like a RPG or anti tank weapon, I would fire as fast as I could.If looking at their side thats a diffrent story.


If you thought the choice was either You live, they die, or You die, they live and the choice had to be made in 2 seconds. What one would you pick?Thats the bottom line. Im sure theres safe guards that can be taken, as in telling them not to be in a certin area, like they were told not to be in. That would help allow the military to not open up on strange people with items on their shoulder.

[Xzion]

actually this problem would have never been an issue if we were already the fuck outa Iraq

...and kilmoll, the cover is on on what you posted, i dont think he would be planning to take out a tank with the fucking cover on

[Skogen]

actually this problem would have never been an issue if we were already the fuck outa Iraq

...and kilmoll, the cover is on on what you posted, i dont think he would be planning to take out a tank with the fucking cover on

I might be wrong, but I think that is a blow-away cover.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

don't confuse him

[Atokal]

there are shoulder fired weapons in Iraq that can take out M1 tanks.

because to this day only 1 M1 in history has ever been lost in a battle, and that was to a massive piece of artillery a couple of months ago.

I know of no such shoulder mounted rocket that can even come close to destroying an M1. The armor is not only too thick for it but it's designed in such a way to deflect that kind of round. the crew should be wearing headgear to protect themselves from ballistics colliding with the hull. at the very most you could score a lucky shot and maybe damage the treads.

http://www.mco.com/iraq/1717992.html

"A projectile, now thought to be a rocket-propelled grenade, hurtled with the force of a freight train into the back of the tank commanded by Sgt. 1st Class Curtis Anderson, 38, of Sacramento, Calif

Almost simultaneously, a similar jolt rocked Small’s tank, 35 yards behind Anderson’s."

and from the same article.

"The two tanks were total losses — the first Abrams tanks ever destroyed in their 20 years of service by enemy fire."

Nice to see you still check your references before stating your "facts".

[Kelshara]

Says nothing about it being shoulder carried, can easily be truck mounted.

Not getting into the argument, just pointing out that you are cheering for nothing there.

[vn_Tanc]

hurtled with the force of a freight train

Cool! I wonder who measured this comparison.

[Cartalas]

hurtled with the force of a freight train

Cool! I wonder who measured this comparison.

Your ass on your last bath house visit.

[vn_Tanc]

shut your hole you fucking spastic

[Voronwë]

another issue regarding the one Abrams that was shot from behind by this rocket/RPG/whatever.

in the video, we clearly see the tank moving straight at the camera, therefore unless this was a really neato missile, it wasnt going to hit the tank in the back...

[Atokal]

Says nothing about it being shoulder carried, can easily be truck mounted.

Not getting into the argument, just pointing out that you are cheering for nothing there.

Hrmm lets see Kyoukan says only one M1A1 lost to enemy fire and that to a massive piece of artillery. Seems pretty clear that her "facts" are wrong once again.

[Skogen]

Says nothing about it being shoulder carried, can easily be truck mounted.

Not getting into the argument, just pointing out that you are cheering for nothing there.

Hrmm lets see Kyoukan says only one M1A1 lost to enemy fire and that to a massive piece of artillery. Seems pretty clear that her "facts" are wrong once again.

She didn't say lost, she said destroyed. I guess it boils down to what one considers "destroyed" to mean.

[Pahreyia]

Destroy v.

To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.
To tear down or break up; demolish. See Synonyms at ruin.
To do away with; put an end to: “In crowded populations, poverty destroys the possibility of cleanliness” (George Bernard Shaw).
To kill: destroy a rabid dog.
To subdue or defeat completely; crush: The rebel forces were destroyed in battle.
To render useless or ineffective: destroyed the testimony of the prosecution's chief witness.

[Cartalas]

shut your hole you fucking spastic

Maybe you should of done that in the bathhouse.