The Mark of the Beast?

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » July 22, 2003, 4:07 pm

In light of this, I find it impossible to believe that "chance" had anything to do with the process that created life. How can I suppose that Shakespeare himself was the result of a random process when it is quite clearly impossible for even a trivial fragment of his work to have arisen by chance? No sir, I see information all around me, and I conclude that it is the product of a far, far greater intelligence.

http://www.nutters.org/docs/monkeys

Good read, though it doesn't prove anything either way.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 4:09 pm

What can I say Voronwe other than I see the arguements and the laws and the theory. It makes more sense to say the universe was tweaked and designed like cosmic grandfather clock, than so say it was simply born from chaos into order.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 22, 2003, 4:12 pm

Voronwë wrote:keep it up Masteen and you'll end up a pillar of salt!

From one sodomite to another!

Burke · Post by **Burke** » July 22, 2003, 4:15 pm

It all fits together.

And yet the universe is in a constant state of entropy, ah the irony.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 22, 2003, 4:35 pm

i didnt say the universe was born from chaos into order. Just because models based on limited understanding cannot explain events of the early universe does not mean that physics did not exist for a period of time.

Adex, it makes "more sense" to you that the universe was designed by God because it is the only one that is consistent with a world view you have chosen before you even consider how the physics of the universe work. You have chosen this religious world view based on personal experiences and observations regarding yourself.

Of course it doesnt make sense to you that the universe cannot exist without God creating it, because you believe that you cannot exist without God. You exist, hence so does god, hence he created the universe, etc.

your sentence should say "it makes more sense to me". because it does not make more sense to compound one unexplainable phenomenon by appending a larger even more unexplainable phenomenon to it. to me.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 22, 2003, 4:52 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:
So many questions, so hard to find answers.

That's where your religion fits in. No answer? default answer: God did it!

1700: unanswered questions 546,345,234

2003: unanswered questions: 4,342

2020: unanswered questions: 1 (is the Richard Gere gerbil story true?)

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 22, 2003, 5:48 pm

I'm close to agreement with you Voronwe but I still differ with your view that my belief is God is something that starts internally and then radiates outward to define the world around me.

While my knowing God was born of personal experience it was an external force (God) that triggered the experience to begin with.

I also belive the majority of science today was the result of the application of the scientific method. Inside this method there is room for you to pursue your own belief in the answer before testing. You observe something, form an opinion as to how this something is happening and then go about verifying your opinion.

Because of cultural taboos, research that begins with the hypothesis of creation is scorned, and hypotheses that presume a Godless universe are encouraged.

With this cultural closed mindedness in large parts of the scientific community, less research to support creationism is done.

Does this mean that a creationist philosophy is a poor one? No, it's just the victim of politics in the research community.

Research done to verify creationist hypotheses is quite compelling.

An example of compelling research might be Darwins Black Box by Michael Behe.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 22, 2003, 6:26 pm

Ive stated my theories before here... probably on this same thread. Those being, God was the inital spark which created the "bang." As God created the laws of physics, he can change or minipulate them. While I firmly believe we as human beings are of a different substance from God and can never be equil I do believe that God gave us intelligence and choices.

Some of that intelligence has lead to bringing us a greater understanding of the world and how God did things. It has brought us understandings which our ancestors couldn't comprehend. There is an episode of Next Generation where a socitey comes to belive in Picard as god. He eventually shows them through logical reasoning that he is not a god and is just more technically advanced. The clincher being his inablility to save someone's life.

While we as human beings have a LONG way to go before being able to get along with each other long enough to explore the stars I do think we have come far enough to realize that just because we can't explain something doesn't mean God did it. We live in a Universe with physical laws. While I firmly believe that God does intervein, probably constantly somewhere in the world, He is not the reason your computer just crashed before you saved... that of course was Bill Gates or Satan as he is more commonly referred to.

All joking aside though I hope someone understands my meaning. Someone above posted the number of things we don't understanding anymore and posted it was down to one, LOL! There is SOOOOOO much we don't understand. IMHO some of that we will never understand until we can stand before God and say "How'd ya do it?" However much of our unanswered can be undersood and deciphered by us with the intelligence God gave us.

My wife's cousin married a girl whose Church believes that you shouldn't go to Doctors. Thus some of the members of the Church are all gimped up from car crashes. They didn't go to the hospital with their injuries. From another thread you should know I know for certain that God saved me from a very difficult life. He took over where the Dr.'s couldn't. I guess I'm saying I belive that God helps those that help themselves. Sitting around not trying to understand will get you no where, in Religion or life.

Marb

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 22, 2003, 6:29 pm

the main reason that people don't do research on 'creationism' is because it is a joke.

there is certainly a cultural bias towards not doing research on that sort of thing. Just like there is a cultural bias of not doing research on aliens being the people who built the pyramid. That cultural bias is not against those things themselves, but moreso a cultural bias in the scientific community of not wanting to look like an idiot.

until you can refute the fact that Carbon-14 decays at a predictable rate you really can't take step one towards saying the universe is 5,000 years old.

it is such a misinformed position that is actually very difficult to refute. That and the fact that it is difficult to reason with people who choose to ignore reason.

I'm familiar with that book Adex. Just because it is in a book doesnt mean its true, i know we keep coming back to that

. But seriously, the notion of irreducible complexity and intelligent design are not pro-Creationist concepts. Moreover, many of the premises from which he bases his arguments are false. The book has been widely debunked. A simple google search will show you that much.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 22, 2003, 6:46 pm

Vor we agree 100% on this.

Creationism is NOT as science, it's a joke.

In the early 80s they tried to pass a law to make teachers teach this alongside evolution (I think they tried in a bunch of other Southern States as well). It PASSED but was eventually thrown out. While moving recently I found the old documents from my Evolution class... it's just sad how short sighted some people can be... I'm sure there are some here who might put me in that category, heh, but abet unfairly IMHO.

THE EARTH IS BILLIONS OF YEARS OLD... end of story. As I said before, God's explination to a bunch of goat hearders should not be taken literally when we know better. They did not have the understanding to know any better, we do.

Marb

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 23, 2003, 12:32 am

The book stands on its own feet Voronwe.

Casually calling it debunked has as much effect as my calling Desmond Morris' Naked Ape book as debunked.

Darwin's Black Box illustrates how a design hypothesis fits much better than any anti-God hypothesis.

The problem is again there is a large chunk of researchers so lost in their anti-God faith that they fail to consider design arguements.

The fact that you can google up a bunch of armchair critics to the book I mentioned supports my claim of a peer-pressure mantle born of devout evolutionists.

The hard thing to accept about design arguements is it goes against human pride.

Was the universe created 5000 years ago or 1000000? I don't know.

I is possible for God to do either? You bet.

Carbon 14 dating relies on some assumptions that are not verifiable.

We know the ratio of Carbon 14 to Carbon 12 in the atmosphere today, yet it is hard to pin down that ratio in the past. Without knowledge of the seeded ratio, you lack a clear starting point for halflife decay in an object.
Common methods used to calibrate the 14/12 atmospheric ratio rely on unverifable assumptions as well.

If forces you to take some faith that you formulas are correct. <gasp>

The burning of fossil fuels in the industrial age pushed the 14/12 ratio up making dead things appear older than they were after testing, or in the opposite atomic testing during the 1950 served to push down the 14/12 ratio making dead things appear younger than they were after testing.

Cosmic radation missed by our Earth's magetic field can push down the 14/12 ratio. Who's to verify the intensity of sun flares, or charged portions of our galaxy our earth cruised through before recorded history that would complicate the calibration of Carbon 14 dating.

Someone relying on Carbon 14 dating as an indicator of time relies on faithful assumptions.

My point is, be open, don't close your mind to new ideas.

Don't give in to peer pressure and let others limit your consideration of hypotheses.

To do so makes a "joke" of discovery.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » July 23, 2003, 3:12 am

So many good quotes!

The Bible wrote: But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

Your beloved book instructs people to commit murder you fucking ignoramous.

Does this mean that a creationist philosophy is a poor one? No, it's just the victim of politics in the research community.

Carbon 14 dating relies on some assumptions that are not verifiable.

ROFL!

C-R-E-D-U-L-O-U-S

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » July 23, 2003, 8:42 am

Things I learn in astronomy (a hobby) and physics only goes to strenthen my beleif in God. I just can't concieve that the universe is a result of random chance.

There's also the argument that if the universe didn't exist in this state we couldn't observe it, so a grand RNG might be as likely as anything else.

Carbon 14 dating, and most other established scientific methods are fairly well verified and accepted. When your using a illiterate or semi-literate person, I'd imagine you work with what you have. The "created in 7 days" doesn't mean 7 present day 24 hours days I don't think. Time isn't a constant, and counting days from the bible doesn't seem to a good way to determine the age of the universe to me, that's folks reading things into it that while seeming sensible, don't jive with the world around us.

Good to see you Marb

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » July 23, 2003, 9:55 am

Keep in mind Xyun that in those days the jews relied on prophets to make decisions as a nation. It was a grave offence for someone to say they spoke for God and were revealed to be false.

There's a difference between killing an innocent, and killing someone who jepardized the security of struggling nation. One is murder, one is stern justice.

Well I'm off on vacation guys, I'll be back Monday. Keep a light heart and don't blow any gaskets.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » July 23, 2003, 1:07 pm

Carbon 14 dating aside, what I find hardest to swallow about Creationism is it's inability to account for the nearly 1-billion years' worth of fossils buried in the ground. Bones don't turn from organic matter into stone overnight.

I don't dispute that an omnipotent being would have the ability to stick them in there, but why? To trick us?

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » July 23, 2003, 1:43 pm

"I am a trickster God! Ho ho ho! I am killing me!"

"Ok Mister Creationist I have a one world question for ya. Let me sit down and strap in"
. . .
"Dinosaur"
"Oh well God put the fossils there to test our faith!"
*struggles against the straps*
"Thank God I'm strapped in here dude. I think he sent you here to test MY faith".

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » July 23, 2003, 2:20 pm

Good to see you too Ab, I agree with your post as well as Masteen's wholeheartedly.

Marb

Neroon · Post by **Neroon** » July 23, 2003, 3:03 pm

One of the Service reps I used to work with was a born again christian. Pentacostal I think, but not positive. He tried to explain this whole mark theory when we were discussing the chip one day. The idea TERRIFIED him. He couldn't understand why it didn't bother me, but I just couldn't believe the absurdity of it.

I just don't see the big deal. So they can track you with a sattelite, who cares? If you are doing something illegal, you deserve to get caught. If you aren't, they aren't going to bother you. The medical benefits, and help in finding missing persons (especially kids) are huge IMO. I really don't care if the CIA knows where I am at all times. Knock yourselves out. Whoever is tracking me is going to be pretty bored!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 23, 2003, 3:17 pm

Adex_Xeda wrote:
Was the universe created 5000 years ago or 1000000? I don't know.

I is possible for God to do either? You bet.

This fucking makes me sick to my stomach. I want to strangle people that debate about religion as anything you come up with is immediately responded with "well god could have done that too!"

Religion is such a load of crap. I appreciate the calmness it gives a few and support it gives to the mentally weak but for shit's sake, don't give me the god can do anything arguement. It's not worth debating faith people as their logic and reasoning goes right out the door when they pick up the religious crutch.

Think of religion as being similar to the Matrix...it's there to keep the masses calm.

I'm not here bashing anyones religion but I am bashing the debate based on faith approach.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » July 23, 2003, 5:07 pm

Winnow wrote:
Adex_Xeda wrote:
Was the universe created 5000 years ago or 1000000? I don't know.

I is possible for God to do either? You bet.

This fucking makes me sick to my stomach. I want to strangle people that debate about religion as anything you come up with is immediately responded with "well god could have done that too!"

The fact is that if you believe in an all powerful God he can do that.

Winnow wrote: Religion is such a load of crap. I appreciate the calmess it gives a few and support it gives to the mentally weak but for shit's sake, don't give me the god can do anything arguement. It's not worth debating faith people as their logic and reasoning goes right out the door when they pick up the religious crutch.

Yes and it is logical to believe that cosmic forces came together in a fantastic accident from material that doesnt exist and formed our universe.
Plenty of logic there.

As to religion being a crutch I suppose it is for many people, however many have been persecuted for their beliefs and even put to death, I fail to see the weakness you intend with your comments.

Winnow wrote:Think of religion as being similar to the Matix...it's there to keep the masses calm.

Hrmm yes vs the alternative this is a bad thing?

Winnow wrote:I'm not here bashing anyones religion but I am bashing the debate based on faith approach.

Okay what should the debate be based upon?
Were it not for the faith approach there would be no debate.

Cheers

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 23, 2003, 5:16 pm

Atokal wrote:
Winnow wrote:I'm not here bashing anyones religion but I am bashing the debate based on faith approach.
Okay what should the debate be based upon?
Were it not for the faith approach there would be no debate.

Cheers

Exactly! : )

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » July 23, 2003, 5:25 pm

I don't care how religious a person claims to be, when the shit hits the fan, they turn to science. When a loved one is sick, do you rely on prayer or medicine?

One will work, the other will not. It's something religious people take for granted. Science is what gives them high birth rates, longer life spans, and the knowledge to even debate the subject.

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » July 23, 2003, 5:46 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:I don't care how religious a person claims to be, when the shit hits the fan, they turn to science. When a loved one is sick, do you rely on prayer or medicine?

One will work, the other will not. It's something religious people take for granted. Science is what gives them high birth rates, longer life spans, and the knowledge to even debate the subject.

Naw Fair, the two go hand in hand when the shit hits the fan. Use the technology, and pray it works!

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » July 23, 2003, 9:08 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:I don't care how religious a person claims to be, when the shit hits the fan, they turn to science. When a loved one is sick, do you rely on prayer or medicine?

One will work, the other will not. It's something religious people take for granted. Science is what gives them high birth rates, longer life spans, and the knowledge to even debate the subject.

Some suggested reading might be any novel on the sinking of the Indianapolis. When you are adrift in a shark infested ocean and no hope of rescue remains believe me your thoughts and hopes are pinned on one thing alone. Prayer and a loving God to direct a miracle.

As Skogen said Prayer and Technology go hand in hand

Acies · Post by **Acies** » July 23, 2003, 9:16 pm

Actually, I have known people who had prayed instead of turning to science because they could not afford the science. Well, suprisingly enough, the cancer went bye bye. To where? No one knows.

Now, do not get me wrong, I am strongly against organized religion. However, to profess belief that a divine being (That is, a being more powerful than you in ways you do not understand) created the universe is no more perposterous than the big bang theory, if only for lack of proof either way.

There is no way to prove the Big Bang theory or the existance of "god" as is right now. Still, you really shouldn't shit on anothers beliefs. Sometimes it is all they really have.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » July 23, 2003, 10:35 pm

All debate aside, I love the Bill Hicks reference ^^

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 29, 2003, 4:04 am

Deja Vu!